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We Just Can't Win in Afghanistan

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 09:07 PM
Original message
We Just Can't Win in Afghanistan
The Pentagon and the White House are holding their breath, hoping no one notices the deepening of their clusterfuck in Afghanistan. As if to underscore the folly of their escalated military offensive, U.S. troops (mistakenly) attacked and killed more civilians Monday.

from WaPo: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/12/AR2010041200761_pf.html

Before dawn Monday, American soldiers strafed a passenger bus that approached their convoy outside Kandahar City, killing at least four Afghans, including a woman, and wounding 18 others in another incident that Afghan officials warn could hurt the U.S. military effort here. The city, which spawned the Taliban movement, has become the focal point of American military efforts for the next few months. Of the 30,000 new U.S. troops ordered to Afghanistan by President Obama, 13,000 have already arrived, and thousands more are headed to Kandahar in preparation for a summer offensive intended to roll back the insurgency.


The U.S.-led NATO forces are poised to press on into Kandahar City after declaring 'success' and 'progress' in their assault and takeover of the town of Marjah - an operation which also was preceded by the killing of civilians fleeing the announced raid by NATO forces bent on replacing the Taliban-based authority in the town of 80.000 with representatives from the corrupt Karzai regime.

Thing is, they're quietly hoping we don't notice that they didn't actually transform that Marjah misadventure from the leveling of homes, the taking of resistors lives, and the destruction of farmland and livestock into the nation-building success that they intended for the mission to highlight and represent as they press forward.

from the April 12 LAT: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/asia/la-fg-afghan-marja13-2010apr13,0,425417.story

Two Marine battalions, about 2,000 troops, remain in Marja along with Afghan security forces. But insurgents continue to plant roadside bombs in hopes of killing Marines. At night Taliban fighters intimidate civilians by visiting their homes.

Villagers interviewed separately told of feeling hemmed in by improvised explosive devices and insurgents, six weeks after the main fighting of the offensive ended. "No one can move about freely. There is no security," said Marja tribal elder Sultan Mohammad Shah, 64. "The Taliban are killing and beating people, and no one knows what is going on the next block over because they cannot go anywhere."

He and others complained that promised government services have been slow to materialize. "If the situation remains like this, people will leave Marja," Shah said.


That's a pretty good description of the chaos that those objecting to the nation-building offensive have predicted from the start of the increase of the NATO force in Afghanistan. It's certainly not the picture the administration wanted to present of a liberating force operating in the best interests of the residents caught in the path of the military's anti-Taliban advance.

In the pending Kandahar advance, as in the weeks leading up to the military offensive against Marjah, NATO has sought to feather their path by warning off potential resistors and allowing them (and the residents in the way) time to flee to other parts of the country. No refugee centers have been established to handle the anticipated flight of residents from the promised fighting on all sides; no provisions of food provided, no medical centers set up, no living quarters contemplated for the residents forced out of their homes by the invading forces.

Does it surprise anyone that NATO forces are killing civilians along with whoever they opportunistically identify as 'Taliban' or 'insurgent' as they mow them down? It's amazing that the Pentagon and the President still believe there are enough Afghans there still willing to invest confidence in our blundering advance across their homeland and ignore the real-life consequences of associating themselves with our destructive, grudging mission.

Declaring that 'This is not Fallujah', NATO announced at the end of March that they were counting on local 'political leaders' to direct the upcoming U.S.-led assault on their neighborhoods and communities in Kandahar.

from McClatchy-Tribune: http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/national_world/stories/2010/03/31/u-s--push-in-kandahar-to-stress-political-change.html

“This is not Fallujah. This is not Baghdad,” one senior NATO official said. “There is not going to be house-to-house clearing.”

Instead, military officials are looking to minimize urban fighting by encouraging political leaders to lead the way.

“The solution to Kandahar will not be done through security,” said the other NATO official, who’s a senior U.S. military official in Kabul. “It will be enhanced through security. But the change, the real dramatic change for Kandahar, will have to happen politically.”


It's not very likely NATO will be able to emphasize their 'political' aims over the destructive and destabilizing impact among residents of Kandahar from the devastating, U.S.-led military offensive. Through the force of our weapons - outside the limits that our constitution proscribes for the use of our military defenses - we're representing a corrupt regime and imposing it on the Afghan population, especially in regions which were not engaged in elections that we claim gives the new government legitimacy.

Even our would-be puppet, Karzai, has bristled and balked at the prospect of more destructive NATO conquest in Afghanistan on his behalf. The once-willing accomplice has seen the political writing on the wall and appears to be looking to settle for the assumption of power wherever the Taliban would allow. His reported outburst threatening to 'join the Taliban' was a open-warning to the U.S. that he recognizes there is no 'political solution' that can be reasonably carved out of the devastating, withering military campaign he foresees in Kandahar.

from Reuters April 4: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/SGE63300G.htm?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Speaking in front of some 1,500 elders at a "shura" or traditional council meeting in the southern city of Kandahar, Karzai said he would block an upcoming major NATO offensive in the area if it did not have the support of local people.

"Afghanistan will be fixed when its people trust their president is independent ... when the people trust the government is independent and not a puppet," Karzai said, adding that government officials should not let "foreigners" meddle in their work.

"The other day, I told Mr. (Barack) Obama: 'I can't fix this nation through war,'" he said. "It has been eight years that this situation is going on, we want peace and security... I'm engaged with all my force to bring peace in this country."


The broad spectrum of individuals in the U.S., in and out of government, who have declared the Afghan president mentally unstable in making these remarks have predictably failed to address the basis of his complaints: The prospect of another Fallujah in the Helmand Province; another Marjah.

What about the ability of the U.S.-led NATO forces to protect the residents of Kandahar against Taliban blowback from their invasion? Nonexistent. The ability to protect innocent civilians from NATO attacks, or insulate them from the negative consequences and effects of the NATO military advance? Nonexistent. The ability of NATO to provide and deliver the services and amenities of the central government to the displaced residents? Nonexistent.

Face it, occupation supporters. We just can't win in Afghanistan.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. So, should we leave Afghanistan, how do we guarantee the safety of
the Pakistani nuclear arsenal which is growing as we speak?
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panader0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. In other ways besides strafing busloads of innocents.
Your point is well taken, but our approach has been so ham-handed as to destroy it's purpose.
Get out. Keep a naval presence. Bring the troops home.
This entire Middle East debacle has been about American corporate greed for oil and money.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. we can't protect that nuclear arsenal from Afghanistan
. . . and the counterproductive effects of our nation-building militarism there threatens to destabilize whatever elements in Pakistan threaten the Pak government. Also, I'm not convinced that the making the Taliban in Afghanistan our enemy (which has been described as more than 80% non-combatant by our government and military) is going to do more than inflame the unrest across the border. It actually threatens to prevent any of the reconciliation that was touted as the solution to the Pakistan unrest at the beginning of the Afghanistan escalation.

Remember, no one in our government or military leadership has said they believe our forces in Afghanistan can indefinitely defend against the violent extremism of the resisting elements in the region. They all have pointed to the need for some kind of ultimate 'political solution' to the conflicts that have mostly been fueled and perpetuated by our military presence and activity. Their mantra has been that, 'we can't succeed by military force alone'. It looks to me that the militarism has predictably overshadowed any diplomatic or political efforts at reconciliation, and that the escalated military activity contemplated (and exercised in places like Marjah) represents a failure of that dubious strategy.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. I though we were there because of 9/11.
Or women's rights.

Or to save Buddhist statues.

I suppose Pakistani nukes will do.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. +01
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. They have 190% of the world's heroin. Don't you know there's a War On DRUGS?!?
Or are you siding with the skag barons?
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. No 'guarantees,' I'd say,
but we'll have to deal with Pakistan separately, to the extent possible, imo.
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panader0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Highly rec'd!
We cannot win. It's not like we just can't catch a break. WE CAN'T WIN! EVER!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. I don't think we can. I keep thinking what it did to the Soviet Union
Edited on Mon Apr-12-10 09:17 PM by madfloridian
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. Oh, If Only Eisenhower Were Here Today! He TOLD Us... But THEY
didn't listen! WAR, it's the name of the game! No more can we even say "what if we had a war and nobody came?"

WAR is all we have! I'm SICK of it, and it WILL be our ruin! ROME comes to mind all the time!!

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Mythbuster Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. It took the Russians Ten Years
and over 100,000 soldiers to realize the same thing. Obama should have listened to Gorbachev.
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
9. We certainly have been there a long time
The thing I'm more concerned about rather than "winning" or "losing" is how many tours these troops are serving. 1 tour is bad enough but many are up to 5 tours, possibly 6. Also the ones that don't make it back is very important to me as well as the ones with mental health problems and permanent injuries.
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LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. And while we are doing all of this, lets bring the Assholes who got us into
this shit in the first place to justice. Letting these smarmy shit rats walk among us is absolute BS.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
11. It ain't getting any better.
This was bush's war. He screwed up and now the longer we stay the more chance that we will have more of the civilian casualties which only makes our situation worse. It is the same mentality that kept us in Viet Nam. We just can't admit that we screwed up. One of the things that a savvy executive knows is that when you take over a company, you have only a few months to blame every thing of the old boss. You can reverse direction. You can cancel programs and start new ones to fix the crap the old boss left. If you keep the old boss's policies and programs they become your programs.

Our administration just screwed up.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
12. Fundamentalist Islam and Democracy don't go together.
Edited on Mon Apr-12-10 09:51 PM by GreenStormCloud
They won't accept Democracy, they want a strong kick-ass dictator. It is part of Islam. Even in Turkey, Democracy is hanging by threads as fundamentalist Islam spreads. They want a Califate and global domination by converting the world to Islam, by the edge of the sword if need be. Pakistan's government is under severe pressure from radical Islam, and will likely fall in the next few years.

When radical Islam gains nukes, they will use them.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
13. the violence and loss of life, amid corruption, conflicting goals and motives
it's stupid and just a terrible, incredible waste.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
14. I Doubt that Winning Was the Point
Eternal Occupation to benefit multinational corporations, including the CIA druglords, was.

As for the half-dozen Men of La Mancha who did think that winning was the point, I have a nice shiny mirror for them to stare in and be bedazzled into truth.
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troubledamerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Russia: "U.S. is trafficking Afghan heroin"
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troubledamerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. NATO refuses Russia request to destroy Afghan opium fields
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
15. it was never 'about' winning. it is always about money.
and people at the top making a lot of money off of the murders and deaths of other people.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
16. bring the troops home now!
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
17. WHO EVER HAS?
Its a fair and 'simple' point, I think. Historically, at least.
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unhappycamper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
21. I find the description of Marjah somewhat disingenous.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. well we know that as many as 24,000 residents were reported as refugees
link: http://www.irinnews.org/Report.aspx?ReportId=88136

And, I've read accounts of Marjah's pre-invasion population with totals ranging from from 50,000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marja,_Afghanistan) to 100,000 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-reidy/questioning-marjah_b_469575.html)
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
24. .
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
25. kick
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Lagomorph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
26. Actually winning a war is unlikely....
You have to do things that we, as a nation, are just not willing to do. I, for one, am glad we're not willing to do those things.
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. I see little evidence of America being unwilling to do anything except tell the unvarnished truth.
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Lagomorph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. In Ancient times...
The Assyrians blockaded the city and diverted the river through Fallujah to put down a rebellion. It simply killed everybody.

We don't go for the "kill them all" or "do whatever it takes to win" doctrine. We would leave a lot more dead behind if we were willing to.
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ncteechur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
28. I don't think I would use Karzai as part of my argument if I were you.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. well, no one is listening to the Afghans
. . . and we won't even heed the warnings of the man our own nation's defenders have fought and died to enable and perpetuate into power.

Which Afghans are you quoting these days?
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
31. we're not there to win. nt
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skeptical cynic Donating Member (404 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
32. Let's face it...
We're going to be in Afghanistan, sending our poor to kill their poor, until we force our government to withdraw. I don't even pretend to know all the reasons we're there anymore, I only know that it's clearly a losing battle.

It's time we swallowed our pride, and our "vital national interests," which must be something other than human life and human rights--theirs or ours--and join the other empires that got their asses kicked by the assorted tribes of Afghanistan.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
33. Bill Moyers did a good job on this last Fri Night.
Superb show.
Transcript here:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04092010/transcript3.html

DU Post here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8142188

"It is the longest war in American History, And it is a war for which there is no end in sight. And to my mind, it is a war that is utterly devoid of strategic purpose. And the fact that that gets so little attention from our political leaders, from the press or from our fellow citizens, I think is simply appalling, especially when you consider the amount of money we're spending over there and the lives that are being lost whether American or Afghan."
---Andrew Bacevich, Bill Moyers Journal, April 9, 2010



"If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for,
at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them."

--- Paul Wellstone



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