convince me that Capitalism isn't a pyramid scheme

[leftofthedial]

please

[jobycom]

1. It is. So are all other economic structures.

It's just the slope of the pyramid that changes.

[rinsd]

26. Great line (nt)

[jobycom]

32. Thanks. I think I stole it from somewhere, but I'm not sure.

:shrug:

[whistle]

2. Where is that graphic when I need it....it's been posted many times on DU

...shows exactly that, that capitalism IS a pyramid. Maybe another DUer who has the link and knows how to post the image can do that here. It ends the argument dead in it's tracks and supports what we all know to be true.

[IChing]

6. This one?

[leftofthedial]

10. where can I find a larger version of that?

[IChing]

12. try this

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&resnum=0&q=industrial%20worker%20pyramid%20of%20the%20capitalist%20system&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

[leftofthedial]

14. thanks

[valerief]

17. Great graphic.

Tough to read but…

We rule you.
We fool you.
We shoot at you.
We eat for you.
We work for all. We feed all.

[whistle]

25. That's it, thank you. Is there a link for that?

[Bucky]

42. Gosh, what a stirring indictment of capitalism... from the 19th Century

Pure capitalism creates horrid disparities in wealth and opportunity. But a regulated capitalism with protected trade unionism that keeps the working class in the middle class does provide a stable economy with plenty of opportunity. That cartoon indicts a system of capitalism that's been rejected since the Square Deal.

Even the system today under a crypto-union-buster like Bush doesn't produce a mass of poverty like the Guilded Age's second industrial revolution produced. There's problems and things are drifting in the wrong direction, but right now we are living thru the process of how a mixed capitalist economy corrects itself, given adequate democracy and a progressive leadership smart enough to move the ball in the right direction.

[bryant69]

3. Life is a pyramid scheme

Life is a savage wilderness full of nasty beasts waiting to take what they want. Because humanity is made up of angry stupid individuals, they are going to conflict and try to take advantage of each either. Managed capitalism is desirable because it ritualized that conflict in such a way as to produce greater benefits to society as a whole, while allowing individuals to remain nasty assholes (which they are likely to do anyway).

But your view of human nature might be more positive than mine.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[leftofthedial]

8. I'm more cynical than you

emphasizing stupidity much more for the masses

and narcissism for the "elite"


pyramid schemes are illegal and unsustainable

[bryant69]

9. Pyramid schemes are illegal?

Since when? Please cite chapter and verse the law that would render Capitalism illegal.

There is nothing that is not unsustainable.

Bryant

[leftofthedial]

16. not all pyramid schemes are illegal, though many involving money are

but they are unsustainable by definition

and all are ethically dubious

[bryant69]

19. If we are all primitave nasty beasts than anything we do is going to be ethically dubious

right?

The question is whether or not it works or not. And Manged Capitalism has worked better than most other things that have been tried, and those few things that have worked better there have been conditions that don't necessarily apply here in the states.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[leftofthedial]

31. the devil is in the little detail

of the definition of "managed"


but devising any system to reward greed and ruthlessness (as capitalism always has), is aiming too low IMHO.

[bryant69]

33. Humans are greedy and ruthless

We have those qualities in spades.

To me your argument is a bit like arguing that we need to develop cars that run on diamond dust. OK, maybe that would be cool, but we don't have enough Diamond Dust for it to actually work. By the same token we don't have enough love and generosity and good vibes to build a system around those qualities. What we have plenty of is greed and selfishness.

Bryant

[leftofthedial]

36. humans also have other qualities

altruism, cooperation . . .


your argument is the equivalent of saying that since humans are violent, outlawing assault, murder and rape is foolish.

[bryant69]

38. Nope. It's actually different.

Because Greed and Self Interest and Selfishness don't necessarily lead to violence; how many of the corporate heads of America or those planning our wars going into Iraq are actually violent, committing murders or assaults themselves?

Again Capitalism ritualizes our Greed and Self-Interest so that it is productive rather than destructive. But obviously that is why you need to manage it.

As for your first assertion, I feel a poll coming on.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[leftofthedial]

39. in addition to greed and selfishness

violence is a human trait

should we endorse institutionalized violence? Should we reward those among us wh are the most violent?

your assertion that "Capitalism ritualizes our Greed and Self-Interest so that it is productive rather than destructive" is absurd on its face. Look at poverty, hunger, war, the vanishing rainforests, global warming, polluted air and water, un- and under-employment . . . Capitalism is arguably the MOST destructive force known.

[bryant69]

40. What's the environmental record of the Soviet Union like?

How did they treat their workers? How has China treated it's workers?

Didn't the Russians invade Afghanistan?

I'm not saying it's perfect; indeed perfection is impossible because humanity is so deeply flawed. But it's better than any alternative I've ever heard. And all your pie in the sky scolding isn't going to convince me there's a better system out there.

Bryant

[leftofthedial]

41. state capitalism was as bad as 'free market" capitalism

[galileo3000]

13. Capitalism = Darwinism

It is the theory of evolution. All living things use their advantages to fight their way to the top of the food chain. I don't know of any system that is sustainable without additional resources or energy. But I do not see capitalism slowing down anytime soon.

[leftofthedial]

15. Not true.

Almost nothing in nature "fights its way to the top of the food chain," which is not Darwinism. Darwinism is about organisms, through mutation, finding and exploiting niches.

While it is true that without us hastening its demise, our planet, our sun, our solar system, our galaxy and probalby even the universe as we know it will end eventually, that observation is frivolous in this context. We are not talking about entropy. It takes people mindlessly fueling a system like capitalism to destroy themselves, thousands of other species and the ecology of an entire planet in a few hundred years.

[KittyWampus]

34. Survival of the fittest isn't part of Darwinism? You are mistaken. And I suspect a bit uncomfortable

when when Social Darwinism ( as it plays out economically) is presented to you.

[leftofthedial]

35. survival of the fittest

does not mean fighting your way to the top of the foodchain

[loudsue]

43. "Managed capitalism" is the key phrase here....

What we have too much of is "managed" capitalism that MANAGES to shut out 90% of the people who try to rise up its ladder. It's called "deregulation", which put corporations in charge of the government.

Corporations in charge of the government is known as FASCISM. Capitalism gives rise to fascism. Fascism SUCKS for everyone but the annointed elite.

:kick::kick::kick:

[Zuiderelle]

45. Check it out

[ORDagnabbit]

4. go watch these and you'll understand more

http://www.moneyasdebt.net/


www.freedomtofascism.com

[rhiannon55]

5. Wow! I see exactly what you mean...

A few people making a lot of money on the backs of a lot of people making very little money. Sounds like a pyramid scheme to me.

USA = United States of Amway :patriot: :rofl:

[gulfcoastliberal]

7. It's one reason unchecked immigration is allowed if not condoned.

They need millions more bodies every year to keep the charade going.

[Birthmark]

11. It is

And tax cuts for the rich are protection money that "provide jobs." Think about it.

[Beelzebud]

18. Convince me it is.

[dave_p]

20. Capitalism isn't, Bushism is

Unlike a genuine pyramid scheme, capitalism's been very successful at generating real output: it just distributes the resulting income in a way that's unrepresentative of the labor involved, but it's designed that way in order to reward also the investment that adds to labor's productive capacity.

What passes for capitalism among today's right isn't capitalism at all. Instead of maximizing opportunity and rewarding investors for risk-taking, we see labor bearing ever more of the risk and receiving none of the added returns, while the biggest returns go to low-risk exploitation of short-term opportunities by those with the megabucks it takes to reap the biggest dividends, to enjoy government protection against losses and to have foreign countries invaded so they can be fleeced too.

So it's becoming more like a pyramid scheme. But it's also becoming less capitalist. Adam Smith would be spinning in his grave.

[tjwash]

21. Our current system is not so much a pyramid scheme as it is social darwinism gone unchecked.

Capitalism on it's own merits is actually not a bad system. Unfortunately, that's not what we have here in the United States anymore. A strong middle class is what capitalism needs to work, and that's what FDR saved with the New Deal. Unfortunately, Reagan came along and started to slowly dismember the new deal, and with it, we are seeing the dismemberment of true capitalism, along with the middle class.

What we have here in the United States now, is a twisted version of capitalism, that I don't even think can even be called that anymore. The current model has actually morphed into more of a global serfdom. Success in that type of a model - education, money and enlightenment - is NOT the result of an advanced individual, or of hard word, or the brains and the capability to "capitalize" on the system. It's based on an advanced understanding of how the system works.

The drawback is that this system has only two choices - the abuser or the abused. The new hierarchical class structure that has developed alongside of the global serfdom model we have here, is all about learning how to become an abuser, and passing that knowledge down. Look at GW Bush. Dumb as a sack full of hammers, and would not even be able to keep a job in the stockroom at Walmart if he was left to his own devices. But because he is born of entitlement he is where he is.

The model is self-perpetuating, and large enough that an individual has a hard time understanding it's scope. Calling it "capitalism" instead of a modern serfdom, is merely a way to alleviate the underlying guilt in buying into an inhumanely flawed system. In other words, we get spoon fed that it is not because of abject corporate greed, wage slavery, ever increasing consumer debt, and the shipping out of jobs from here to an an ever increasing base of third world slave labor, that is destroying our middle class. It's the peoples laziness, or them being uneducated, or just not having the drive and will to succeed, that keeps those less fortunate ones in misery and poverty.

Therein lies it's defeat as well. The assumption that our society/civilization model of "capitalism" is an evolution of ideas for the good of all is laughable.

[damntexdem]

22. It can't be: the pyramid builders built for the long term.

And they did a good job of it.

[porphyrian]

23. As if you're really open to changing your mind about capitalism...

:eyes:

[bperci108]

28. Why not?

It has happened in the past....

(I should know.)

:evilgrin:

[gravity]

24. Pyramid schemes are unsustainable

It's a way to steal from the people below you until the scheme collapses. It's just a way to transfer money from one party to another, without actually producing anything

Capitalism involves actually producing goods and services facilitated through mutually beneficial transactions. Instead of the person on top of the hierarchy stealing from the person below, they offer a wage for exchange of work, which is completely different.

[conspirator]

29. capitalism IS a pyramid SCAM. It is sustainable because the offspring of the working class...

will perpetuate the system.
Its a pyramid scam that involves the production of goods, while other pyramid scams like
multi level marketing involve social networking, and some, as you said, are just pure stealing.
A wage is usually much less than you actually deserve, which makes it a scam. I dont think you would be so happy about your wage if you were a chinese or an indian sweat shop worker.
My time is much more valuable than the average wage. What about yours?

[gravity]

37. The working class perpetuates every system

You are being rewarded for your work when you are a worker. The wage might not be what you want, and I'll argue it always fair, but it is always better than not working.

Indian and Chinese workers are usually happy with their wages, because they chose their line of work. They could have made a living being a peasant farmer, but being a factory worker was more appealing to them, so they chose that job.

Workers aren't always paid there fair value, which is the value they produce not their intrinsic self worth, what ever that is. There are better ways of dealing with these inefficiencies however, like minimum wages instead of just abolishing the whole system of capitalism.

[bperci108]

27. Perhaps you might find an answer here:

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=62-9781859848982-0

(Probably the best edition I've seen, nice binding, good extra material like previous versions of the Manifesto and other extras. It's the edition on my personal bookshelf.)



I used to think it wasn't such a bad system; until I read what Marx had to say about it.

Now I think the Wobblies were/are right: "Capitalism cannot be reformed."

[chaska]

30. Can't be done. Sorry.

[Nederland]

44. First

Convince me that socialism isn't a system where the elite few in government redistribute wealth from the people that produce it to their political cronies.

That's about as loaded a place to start as your proposition. :eyes: