I think Eli Broad and Bill Gates

[mzteris]

are wonderful philanthropists.

I support Democrats for Education Reform.

I support CHOICE.

Last I heard, it was ok to support Democratic ideals on DU - even ones that might prove unpopular with some.

These people are smart and successful and surround themselves with VERY smart and successful people. I think maybe - just maybe - we should give the folks with the brains and the clout to get it done a bit of a chance, don't you?

What's been done in the past ain't working folks. . . it's time to make some serious changes. You may not LIKE some of the changes, but for the life of me I can't understand questioning the motives of multi-BILLIONAIRES who have absolutely NO NEED of "making any more money". They have demonstrated time and again that they have the best interest of the disadvantaged at heart. Which is more than I can say for a lot of people.

I have really really tried to figure out this "dastardly plan" that they're being accused of. It's not union busting. It's not teacher hating. It's not elitism. It's not power or control or anything at all ... but philanthropy - plain. pure. and simple.

The poor and disadvantaged are FINALLY getting some of the help - and the $$ and expertise - needed to try and get rid of the bias that is institutionalized into the American educational system. I really don't understand why it is that good Democrats have a problem with that.

Think about it folks, who has the agenda? Who has the most to "gain" from maintaining the status quo?

It's not sick, nor disgusting nor traitorous to want QUALITY EDUCATION available for EVERY CHILD.. Regardless of their color. This isn't a call-out. Having a dissenting opinion - especially one that is embraced by MANY GOOD DEMOCRATS should not be censured on DU.

[TomClash]

1. Wow

You do realize you helped to bail Eli Broad and Bill Gates out, don't you? I'm not an educator but I know a little bit about finance.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion! But I don't think getting money to poor kids of color is what people have a problem with.

[mzteris]

4. I think that's EXACTLY what most people

have a problem with here.

[Hannah Bell]

7. I think you're calling DUers opposed to the privatization of public ed racists.

I think that's one of the latest talking points from your team.

[Hardrada]

16. The mods should lock OP's like this.

[mzteris]

19. Why?

It's a legitimate DEMOCRATIC position to take. Why should it be locked? Because some people feel threatened by changes to the status quo?

I'm a Democrat and I believe in Choice.

[Hardrada]

22. It is not democratic to allow billionaires to dictate public policy

with no checks and balances. That would be something for a Fascist Underground. Check definition of fascism in your personal Webster's (Severely) Abridged Dictionary first.

[mzteris]

26. how is that happening, specifically in this case?

And who do you think runs things in this country anyways? since when have the poor ever had much of a say. At least THESE billionaires are trying to HELP the poor and underprivileged climb out of the holes they've been shoved into by our white capitalist supremacist patriarchy.

Fascism, socialism, I know I'm on the right track when people start throwing out those terms. Usually it's the teabaggers and pubs doing that so - that must mine it's a good thing, eh?

:rofl:

[Hardrada]

28. They may be trying to help but recall the saying about how

one man's meat is another man's poison. That's why their plans need public input and in a manner acceptable in a supposedly democratic society.

[mzteris]

29. there is public input -

if the public doesn't attend, they get closed.

[Hannah Bell]

30. sure, mz tetris. (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)

[SoxFan]

24. SHUN THE HEATHEN! SHUN THE HEATHEN!

God forbid someone should challenge the failed educational orthodoxy of the NEA.

[Hannah Bell]

31. it ain't about the nea, but nice try.

[Hannah Bell]

34. SINCE THE NEA DOESN'T MAKE EDUCATION POLICY.

In fact, teachers are the education actors with the LEAST control over education policy.

[Hardrada]

2. The goal here is to promote DEMOCRACY.

Fiat rules from billionaire foundations cannot be challenged or voted on. The many Americans who are affected by the ideas (many of them proven wrong) MUST have a say or it is a species of despotism. That's the main point really.

[mzteris]

5. What "fiat" rules?

You want to "vote" on whether research should be done? Scholarships? Grants? Vaccines? Clean air and water? Development of the arts?

I'm sorry, I don't have a problem with the money the donate to improve the lives of others. What, exactly is it you have a problem with?

[corpseratemedia]

3. you take away the opportunity for a quality education for every child when authorities

shit all over teachers and their collective bargaining ability (indeed union-busting), fire them en masse because of poverty and now in Florida threaten to take their licenses for any apparent reason:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8098324

from the article cited in that thread:

"Senate Bill 6 subjects teachers to firing without cause at the end of each school year. Principals will be able to fire teachers at will. If a teacher disagrees with a principal on anything -- anything at all -- that teacher can be terminated, even if her students are successful based on test scores.
Graduate degrees will have no value. Senate Bill 6 forbids teachers from earning salary based on advanced degrees or credentials."

As a former teacher I will guarantee you that this corporate scapegoating and intimidation of teachers will drive away the most capable from that profession.

The reason things have become "so difficult" is because of re-segregation of the classroom based on race and income while income inequality has grown dramatically (due to Reaganite trickle-down policies) over the past 30-odd years. The way to get rid of the bias is to reinstate progressive and equitable taxation, not to destroy more of the public commons.

And having an s/o work at microsoft for almost 2 decades I can in fact see that Bill Gates supported a policy that destroyed the livelihood of millions in this country. He is a "philanthropist" with the wages of the former American middle class.

Btw, the Walton family also supports privatization. And they helped create (by destroying mom & pop stores) a much larger population of working poor.

"Think about it folks, who has the agenda? Who has the most to "gain" from maintaining the status quo? "

Well, I think I can tell the dump-on-teacher bias from that question. Teachers are trying SURVIVE. You know, feed their families, pay their bills, etc.

When being a teacher finally means an eight dollar an hour p/t job with no benefits and no security the corporate elites will go after the health profession-too many stable middle class incomes in that one.

...maybe your post was sarcastic..i missed it...

[mzteris]

8. Strawman. . .

"union busting" is a phrase used to scare people off of effecting change. Desperately needed change.

Floridas entire education plan sucks and has for decades - I don't think quoting what's going on in Florida is a valid argument about much of anything really.

No one wants to "dump on the teacher". The fact that some teachers are frightened isn't my problem. The fact that some teachers don't need to be anywhere near a classroom is a whole damn lot of kids' problems.

I have ALWAYS SAID - teachers should be making more money. WAY more. They are overworked and underpaid. Undertrained and over-regulated. I've said a lot of things in support of teachers and schools and students.

I also have a whole damn lot of very varied experiences when it comes to schools and "schooling". I've had in-depth conversations with people from all of the country and the more than a few in other countries about educational experiencnes in just about every kind of venue imaginable.

People need to open up their minds and stop being afraid of change. Just because you've "always done it that way" does not mean it's the only way or the right way or the only right way.

No - my post wasn't sarcastic. They're not saints. wtf is? But at leastl they're doing SOMETHING - and some of those SOMETHINGS I happen to agree with. Some of those somethings - a whole damn lot of people agree with - DEMOCRATS and parents and students and union officials and TEACHERS!!! Just because there is a very vocal "anti" group here on DU, does NOT mean that all teachers feel that way.

[Hannah Bell]

32. evidentally you don't know the definition of strawman. & evidentally you

can't recognize union busting when you see it.

maybe because your interests depend on you not recognizing or acknowledging it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. The modern neo iiberal program, and yes Gates and others, are part of it

includes privatization of profit, services etc.

You will get it when all you can find is a job that pays little, and there is no minimum wage. You think I am exaggerating? I am not.

By the way, I would recommend a few books on the history of labor, or for that matter, education, but I'd suggest starting with a general readying of what the THIRD WAY is...

Oh wait, trying to educate people... what the hell am I doing?

Oh and spare me the strawman ok... I think a few teachers failed to teach you about these things.

Oy... there are days I want to do this.

:banghead:

[LWolf]

10. Thank you. nt

[depakid]

6. So how is your angle going to create "quality education?"

All I hear is a lot of whinging side by side with buzz words in caps.

[mzteris]

9. what's "whinging"?

Quality Education - you know. Trained teachers who WANT to be where there are. Methodology not mired in the 40's. Freedom to meet the needs of students. The willingness and desire and opportunity to offer the education a child needs and deserves rather than what is "mandated" by some tired "school board" tied to decades of "we've always done it this way" and witless parents scared that their little johnny might have to go to school with "those kids" and severing the ties of institutionalized racism that is built into the "system" as it stands.

[conscious evolution]

11. The so called education reform

has nothing to do with improving education or breaking out od out moded styles of education.
It is all about turning education into a means of providing profit for a handful of people and is also about dumbing down the population in order to make the riech wings social control goals easier to implement.

[mzteris]

14. Upon what are you basing that accusation?

do you REALLY think that Eli Broad and Bill Gates need to "make a profit" on some schools? Do you really believe Oprah Winfrey and Barack Obama only want "some people to profit" -? Really??

Did you know that only approximately 10% of all charter schools are managed by for-profit organizations? The same ones that also manage traditional schools?

Did you know that approximately another 10% are managed by NON-PROFIT Charter organizations?

Did you know that approximately 80% are locally managed by teachers, parents, former traditional school administrators, and local citizens?

All charter schools are public schools. All charter schools are NON-profit organizations.

BTB - some charters are not only unionized, they were open and run by unions. And there are "traditionals" that are non-union.

Poor charters are closed down asap... poor traditionals just keep on and on and on and on. That's going to change. And that's a good thing.


Are there some bad charters? Absolutely. Are there some unscrupulous people involved in the charter "business" just to make money. Oh hells yeah. But when you're scrutinizing the education system for Bad schools and unscrupulous people, please be sure to look at ALL the schools - traditional, religious, private, . . . Don't shut down an entire system - that for the most part is WORKING! for the sins of a few. you know the whole "mote" thing and all....

Charters are about anything BUT "dumbing down". How about empowerment? How about opportunity? How about respect? How about freedom?

With how many charters are you - personally - acquainted?

How many students, teachers, admin, board members - do you know? How involved are you in the traditional system? What kind of experiences have you had? How many different schools, systems, states, methodologies, differences, races, economically disadvantaged. 504's, IEP's, Gifted, disabled, poor, homeless? Do you really KNOW what you're spouting, or just repeating some nonsense "talking points" put up by some that are threatened by change.

Maintaining the "Status quo" benefits a few. You need to ask yourself why they're so desperate to hang onto a system that has clearly failed so many.

[Hannah Bell]

33. Do you know your talking points are either 1) false or 2) bullshit?

1. "10% of all charter schools are managed by for-profit organizations"

False. 16%.

http://www.centerforpubliceducation.org/site/apps/nlnet/content3.aspx?c=lvIXIiN0JwE&b=5868097&ct=8089273¬oc=1

And bullshit, because, as documented many times, even supposed "non-profit" EMOs typically have for-profit arms that make money on real estate, curriculum, or other services/supplies.'

It's likely that more than half of emo's are "for-profit" in some way or another.



2. "80% are locally managed by teachers, parents..."

False, since 30% are managed by emo's of various types:

"Educational management organizations (EMOs), which now run close to 30 percent of all charter schools throughout the United States..."

http://www.centerforpubliceducation.org/site/apps/nlnet/content3.aspx?c=lvIXIiN0JwE&b=5868097&ct=8089273¬oc=1

And bullshit, since the remaining 70% are rarely managed by teachers or parents.



3. "All charter schools are public schools"

"Public" only because they take public $$. They don't follow the same rules public schools do, they can be profit-generating institutions, they don't have the same oversight public schools do, & contra the hype, in general they afford parents *less* access & input, not more.

10% of all charter schools are run by just 10 EMOs, which operate like franchise businesses, across state lines. For example, "Imagine" is a for-profit EMO which operates 76 schools in 10 different states:

http://www.centerforpubliceducation.org/atf/cf/%7B00a4f2e8-f5da-4421-aa25-3919c06b542b%7D/FIGURE%202.PDF

Some charter school management corps are, in fact, INTERNATIONAL, e.g. Edison, Sabis, etc.

http://www.sabis.net/

But supposedly, these global, for-profit franchise operations are going to provide more local control than a public school district.

Riiiiight. That must be why so many cases are popping up where charter school parents are denied access to budget, salary, and other information that is a matter of public record in public schools.

The day will come soon when many more of these operations are traded in the stock market (some already are) -- & that is the point of the whole "school reform" gig.



4. "All charter schools are NON-profit organizations."

Only by twisting the language. A school with for-profit management = a for-profit school, e.g.:

Company History:

National Heritage Academies, Inc. (NHA) operates a chain of nearly 40 charter schools--state-regulated, for-profit institutions that serve as a tuition-free alternative to public schools. The company erects the buildings and provides personnel and management services, receiving what local school districts spend per student as compensation. NHA students get a back-to-basics education featuring phonics, math skills, and moral teaching, and follow strict disciplinary and dress codes. To reduce overhead, NHA centralizes many operations, pays its non-union teachers lower salaries, and eschews the use of buses or cafeterias. The Michigan-based company is owned by J.C. Huizenga, a cousin of Blockbuster/Waste Management billionaire Wayne Huizenga.

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/National-Heritage-Academies-Inc-Company-History.html.



5. "some charters are not only unionized, they were open and run by unions"

and most aren't, & weren't.



6. "Are there some bad charters?"

Yes, there are a lot of bad charters. In fact, the largest study ever done of the matter, the stanford study, found that only 17% of charters performed better than the public schools in the same area, while THIRTY-SEVEN PERCENT PERFORMED SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE. The rest were comparable to public schools.

i.e., overall, CHARTER SCHOOLS PERFORMED WORSE.

Somehow whenever this fact comes up, you fail to acknowledge it.

Which is easy to do when you put anyone who brings up inconvenient facts on "ignore".



7. "Are there some unscrupulous people involved?"

Yes, there are. In fact, as I documented just the other night, a recent probe of charter schools in Philadelphia found substantial irregularites AT EVERY CHARTER SCHOOL THEY INVESTIGATED. As the investigator said, if they found such significant problems at all of the random schools they looked at, it's fairly likely other charters in the area have the same problems.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8110587



8. "Poor charters are closed down asap"

First, NO THEY'RE NOT. You can find ample documentation of this, not that you'll bother to investigate the matter, at "Schools Matter" a website which regularly writes about lousy, corrupt charter schools that just keep going & going & going like the energizer bunny.

Second, your market-based solution -- opening bad charter schools & then closing them, like businesses do - IS NOT GOOD FOR CHILDREN. IT'S NOT GOOD FOR CHILDREN to keep changing school buildings, teachers, curriculum, methods. IT'S NOT GOOD FOR CHILDREN when the CEO absconds with the funding & the kids show up to find the school shuttered.

IT'S FUCKING STUPID MARKET-BASED POLICY. CHILDREN AREN'T COMMODITIES & NEITHER SHOULD EDUCATION BE.



9. "do you REALLY think that Eli Broad and Bill Gates need to 'make a profit'"

You've repeatedly stated that Gates & Broad are so rich, they're no longer interested in profit & have now transitioned to good-deed-doing.

Why didn't they stop at their first million? Their second? Their third? Their first 100 million? 200 million? THEIR FIRST FUCKING BILLION?

They're both on the WORLD'S 50 RICHEST LIST. Broad's worth about $6 billion, Gates about $58 billion.

When was that magic point they stopped being interested in money & profit, ms tetris?

Hint: you don't become one of the 50 richest people in the world by being a do-gooder at heart.

Because there's never enough, for some people. Broad & Gates are among that legion. There's never enough money, power, control & adulation for them, & never will be.

Anyone who's done any serious research on Bill Gates' & Broad's activities, including their so-called "philanthropies," knows they are STILL ALL ABOUT THE MONEY & POWER.

THEY DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT ANYONE'S KIDS BUT THEIR OWN.

Course, people who can't distinguish words in fancy public-relations brochures from deeds will never get it.

[depakid]

12. Whinging is complaining- usually about something one has little control or ability to change

And as far as I can tell from seeing systems both in the states and abroad, methodology "mired in the 40's" isn't much of a problem at all.

Teaching to a test- as opposed to teaching critical thinking- now that's a common theme, one that many nations can improve on.

[mzteris]

13. oh hell no -

teaching to the test is the absolute WORST thing to do.

Critical thinking skills are in VERY SHORT SUPPLY in the US today. No wants to teach kids to THINK anymore, they want them to memorize and regurgitate.

Whinging, huh? I just figured people didn't know how to spell.

But according to YOUR definition - absolutely not. One DOES have the ability to CHANGE the system. Even if it's one kid at a time. Homeschoolers do it every day, baby.


That "hopey-changey thing" is working out just fine for me, thank you.

I'm a Democrat and support Choice (and change for the better!)

[tonysam]

15. Flamebait. n/t

[mzteris]

18. why is it if I want to discuss the positives

it's "flamebait" - but if others want to denigrate and name-call, it's a-okay?

And hey - I'm on the side of the legally elected Democratic ADMINISTRATION - so how is what I"M doing "flamebait", eh?

Make you a deal - stop referring to everyone you disagree with in education as a "eli broad flunky", stop posting every single negative (and never one iota of positive) information you can find on charter schools and other alternative forms of education. Stop denigrating choice in education. Stop being so close-minded about anything you don't personally understand, stop being derisive of people "different from you" - and I'll stop posting my rebuttals to the poisonous diatribes designed to mislead the people about what is really going on in the great world of education reform. 'k?

[SoxFan]

23. Oh, baloney

It's a stance you don't agree with. Shutting down debate by whining is just lame.

[Ignis]

25. On this, we agree.

[Greyhound]

17. What is "Democratic" about billionaires destroying the public education system?

I must've missed a meeting.
:wow:

[mzteris]

20. i don't think so -

there's ben no destroying of education by billionaires.

Where did you get such a ridiculous and preposterous idea anyway?

[Greyhound]

21. Would you care to make a large wager on that?

[mzteris]

27. I think a large enough amt has been wagered and lost

by the children of this country for far far too long.

But hm - let's see - I have no job. I just declared bankruptcy. My birthday was yesterday and I'm that much more than 50 so no one even calls me for an interview. I have two kids still at home and an almost ex who was out of work for a year and forced the bankruptcy because HE didn't pay his gd bills. I stayed married because I needed the insurance. I can't get insurance on my own due to the brain tumor I had removed in 2008. I'm trying to hang on to the house for the kids & the car with 99K miles on it. hmmmmmmm - well, I've two hairy dogs and a smart-ass cat that all need to go to vet. Oh and I have a bill due to the dance studio that is worth more than my car...

So I'm not sure what we can actually "wager". . . What've you got?


Why do you think they're "ruining education"? Can we just have a civil discussion about the pros/cons? How about a debate on the merits using specifics and examples and legitimate citable sources.