FL bill forbids teachers from earning salary based on advanced degrees or credentials.

[madfloridian]

Senate Bill 6 has already passed the Florida Senate. Tomorrow the Florida House will vote on a bill that is equally punitive toward teachers. It is expected to easily pass, and Governor Crist has agreed to sign it.

Hurting teachers can't help students

From the Miami Herald.

If the proposed legislation passes, teachers' licenses, certification and jobs will no longer be based on continuing education, years of experience or professional achievement, but instead will be subject to how well students do on state tests.

Teachers who teach challenged students, non-English speaking students, the emotionally or mentally disabled, autistic students, homeless and transient children or even an average class can count on seeing their salaries frozen or cut.

Senate Bill 6 subjects teachers to firing without cause at the end of each school year. Principals will be able to fire teachers at will. If a teacher disagrees with a principal on anything -- anything at all -- that teacher can be terminated, even if her students are successful based on test scores.

Graduate degrees will have no value. Senate Bill 6 forbids teachers from earning salary based on advanced degrees or credentials. The very professionals who are to encourage, mentor and develop students to be college-ready are now told that their education credentials are worth nothing. Is that the message we want to send to our children whom we want to see go on to college?

SB 6/HB 7189 Will Be Heard on the House Floor Tomorrow

Here is more about the bill and what is contained in it.

The Bad, the Ugly and Not Much Good

Facing salary cuts, contract termination and even the loss of their teaching certification if student gains are deemed insufficient, the best teachers are unlikely to be willing to work in low-performing, high-risk schools with the students most in need of their expertise.

Here are some of the more controversial elements:

•School districts are required to base 50% of teacher's pay each year on student gains on standardized tests. But there is no special provision made for teachers with disadvantaged students, which means there is no consideration given to the large number of factors affecting student performance over which a teacher has no control (home environment, for example, which effects everything from reading ability to whether they went to bed on time and had a decent breakfast before test day). The bill also doesn't address the fact that the lowest-performing students also tend to be the most transient -- the makeup of a teacher's classroom can change as much as 80% in the course of a year. How do you decide which kids' scores affect which teacher's paycheck with that kind of turnover?

•School districts will no longer be allowed to consider teaching experience or advanced degrees in determining salary. In fact, they will face financial penalties imposed by the state if they choose to do so. If the goal is to increase teacher quality, why remove incentives for teachers to seek graduate education? And why remove incentives for experienced teachers to remain in the public schools? Critics suggest that these measures punish all teachers, especially the best, rather than just ineffective ones.

That is idiocy. That is making sure that there will be no teachers with experience or advanced degrees in any hurry to come to Florida to teach.

It is just vindictive and punitive.

More:

•Teachers will no longer have tenure and will be granted only annual, single-year contracts. They can be fired if their students' gains on standardized tests are insufficient. They can even lose their teaching certificate. Just as with salaries, the legislation makes no provision for teachers working with high-risk students.

•The bill would also eliminate programs that address regions with critical teacher shortages and that provide loan forgiveness for teachers willing to serve in low-performing schools.

So a teacher in a school in a wealthy area of town with all the niceties and amenities will be judged along side a teacher in a poorer school from which resources have been taken yearly.

And yet this topic has received little attention at all. Teachers are protesting, there is little media coverage.

As of today only 11,000 have signed the letter urging that SB 6/HB 7189 not become law.

That is not very many people protesting the bill that will turn Florida into a wasteland for teachers.

[ananda]

1. Boy we live in a mean nasty world.

Uglier everywhere by the second.

[John Q. Citizen]

67. Mean and stupid.

[bookman]

115. I second the...

...STUPID!


Florida will remain the "leader" in education.

[clarasanta]

90. Who do they think will look for careers in teaching

on those terms?

[damntexdem]

2. Hey, a lot of school districts around the country needs good teachers with good credentials.

Now Florida has agreed to supply them.

Too bad for Florida students, though.

[madfloridian]

4. Can't you just see teachers banging down doors to get jobs in Florida?

:sarcasm:

It's really unbelievable how stupid our legislature is.

[meeshrox]

8. I wonder if those New Yorkers will be so willing to move down here now...

based on the ad the Broward Co School Board put out in NY for teaching jobs in FL!

[Dr.Phool]

15. A lot of people are stuck here.

Can't sell their houses because the mortgages are underwater. This legislature is just making it a lot easier for people to just walk away. Utility increases through the roof. Insurance rates out of control. No jobs. No wages.

[corpseratemedia]

3. "Florida: Vacation Here, Just Don't Live Here."

"We Hate Qualified and Experienced Teachers and Send Them Off to Other States!"

Thanks, republican't and charter school zero-foresight nimrods.

[old mark]

5. Florida teachers, get out of that pigsty state and let them dig themselves out of their own hole.

Many states are looking for educated certified teachers and I know you will have better conditions than in that republican/fundamentalist toilet.
Sorry, kids - the adults in charge are taking your future away for political points.


mark

[Hepburn]

6. What fucking horseshit...

...:mad:

[HillbillyBob]

7. Floridiaitis strikes again

I sure am glad we got out of there before my last 2 braincells expired.

Every bad thing we were afraid would happen there has..except sinking into the ocean..and that is just a matter of time and climate change.

[Dr.Phool]

16. It started sinking in the middle of the state.

Enjoy those strawberries.

[tonysam]

9. So a principal, many if not most of them stupid or malicious, can take away a teacher's

license for any kind of twisted reason claiming they are "ineffective," thus destroying teachers' careers as they are lumped in with the child molesters and other criminals who typically have their teaching licenses revoked and cannot EVER work again in ANY of the 13,000 public school districts and almost all private schools in the country.

This is fucking INSANE.

[Starry Messenger]

10. The brainwashing has been very successful

I expect to see other states following suit now. It would be interesting to see where the money came from to lobby this bill.

[madfloridian]

32. You are right. Other states will do this.

And everyone will act surprised, like oh when did this stuff start happening?

It's happening now right before our eyes.

[Starry Messenger]

48. Act surprised, or applaud?

I hope they'll really be surprised when none of this crap they are trying to foist on the country actually works.

[FarCenter]

11. A PhD doesn't necessarily increase earning power

In a number of fields, the average salary for someone with a Masters and 8 years of employment will be higher than a PhD with 4 years of employment.

Biology is one area where PhDs on average earn less than Masters degree holders.

[madfloridian]

13. Well, you can rest assured it won't matter anymore in Florida.

I can see this post has had several unrecs already. I have been waiting for those to excuse this.

I am sure others will be along to say that education degrees don't matter.

Did you notice that experience will no longer matter?

Will you excuse that also?

[FarCenter]

20. I'd think that experience should matter

Actual experience in the classroom, observing and exchanging ideas with expert practitioners, and good coaching and mentoring are probably as beneficial to teaching as they are in other professions. I'd think that performance should generally improve and be rewarded as teachers gain experience up to 8 or 10 years past the Bachelor's degree. After the first decade, changes in performance tend to be due to other factors than experience.

[madfloridian]

24. You have got to be kidding me. Or else just trying to get a reaction.

"I'd think that performance should generally improve and be rewarded as teachers gain experience up to 8 or 10 years past the Bachelor's degree. After the first decade, changes in performance tend to be due to other factors than experience."

You really can not believe that.

[FarCenter]

27. Do doctors or nurses or pharmacists improve for more than 10 years of practice?

Or practically any other profession that you can name? Engineering, computer science, biological sciences, journalism, stock traders, lawyers...

Even most people in the arts are as creative as they ever will be by age 35. An MFA and 10 years is about as good as the average artist will get. The Picasso's are very rare.

[riderinthestorm]

31. Every year though Florida teachers get a new class room full of kids

and there's no way of knowing what you are going to get. 10 years of experience may mean nothing if you suddenly have 4 autistic kids in your class because of mainstreaming....

So then your entire teaching career hinges on one annual test score. Over which the teacher has no control over whose in her class. These could be kids from poverty stricken areas, non-English speaking families, drug infested families or worse from areas that have heavy gang and drug addicted populations.

If your principal has it in for you, you will get the shittiest students assigned to you and wham! Your career is doomed.

Sorry but that's fucked up. I'm not even a teacher and I can think of a million ways this is extremely unfair to teachers. It's guaranteeing that no teachers will teach in poverty/crime areas because they will almost certainly fail. It's guaranteeing that no teachers will go on for further educational degrees beyond a bachelors because who cares?

I can't believe you aren't seeing the terrible ramifications of this bill.

[LisaM]

46. People in the arts are as creative as they will ever be be age 35?

That's a pretty broad statement, and I must say I don't agree in the least. What about Monet? Dickens? Beethoven? His Ninth Symphony was his last. What about Vanessa Redgrave?

That statement is, IMO, ill informed.

[progressoid]

76. "ill informed. " Ha! That's being generous.

I was going to say that statement is ignorant or asinine. ;)

[Bradical79]

86. +1000!

[darkstar3]

63. Absolutely.

Give me an engineer with 30 years of experience over one with 10 ANY day. Same for doctors, nurses, and lawyers.

These are fields where things are dynamic, and sometimes even change DAILY. The more experience a person has in coping with that change and responding to it effectively, the better that person will be an addition and aid to my company.

Yours is an asinine assumption.

[amborin]

66. i think you need to read up a bit before posting stuff like that

it's just flat out false

experience matters greatly and in many, many professions, people continue to improve over the long haul as their skills are further honed and they acquire ever new mastery and techniques

surgeons, airline pilots, professors, etc......

[csziggy]

29. Well the Florida Legislature says neither education OR experience will count

Just a score on an arbitrary test that does not test real life use of information taught.

So why are you dragging in a straw dog?

[madfloridian]

30. It is meant to irritate. I intend to ignore it.

.

[FarCenter]

22. Liberal arts majors starting salary offers are down 11% since last year

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703625304575116170339369354.html?mod=WSJ_Careers_NewsTrends

This is the first of four quarterly reports that NACE will release on the class of 2010, but so far things are not looking good for liberal arts majors, whose average starting salary has decreased 11% since last year, down from $36,445 to $32,555.

Recent college graduates have been hit hard in the current recession. Their annual unemployment rate in 2009 was 9.1%, the highest it has been since 1982.

NACE's salary figures are based on 1,558 job offers received by college seniors at about 180 colleges and universities nationwide. Both December 2009 graduates and May 2010 graduates are included. This is the first of four quarterly reports that NACE will release on the class of 2010. A major had to have at least 20 job offers to be included in the top ten.

[madfloridian]

23. America, where education matters little.

Even in the field of education.

[madfloridian]

12. BTW Florida came in 4th in the Race to the Top

From what I heard. So that means Duncan thinks Florida is doing a lot that is good.

In fact Duncan's office has told the Florida Sec. of Education what he thinks needs to be done for Florida to qualify for the funds.

Now the teacher's union is requesting that someone talk to the teachers about it as well.

FEA to Arne Duncan: Tell us what you told Florida education commissioner

If you talked to Florida Education Commissioner Eric J. Smith about Race to the Top, then you should talk to us too, says a letter sent today from Florida Education Association president Andy Ford to U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan.

Ford says U.S. Department of Education officials who talked to Smith recently about how to improve Florida's application should pass the same information on to key education groups in the state. "The purpose of this briefing would be to ensure that there would be no misunderstandings about the guidance that your agency has or has not offered," he writes.

He adds: "What we are hearing from Commissioner Eric Smith is at odds with what has been reported in the media as far as what Florida would have to do to ensure a successful grant application in the next phase of Race to the Top."

America seems to be disrespecting teachers under this administration.

It is not wise, and it is going to hurt the children as well as teachers.

[John Q. Citizen]

68. Obama seems intent on passing a whole slew of Republican ideas and policy. From

the "Public/Private Option" in health care to the "Public/Private Option" in education (aka "vouchers") there are a surprising number of people who call themselves Democrats who are falling for this right wing horse-shit, especially when it's promoted by people like the African American Obama supporter Arne Duncan, or the centrist former governor of Vermont, Howard Dean.

We need to tell these people that we want the socialist option. No more of this public/private option crap.

That would be a well funded tax based Public School system, and a well funded tax based Public Health Insurance system.

It's time we said no more privatization. It's time we all come together and repudiate these Republican idea. It's time to face the fact that "Public/Private Options are anything other than attempts to privatize public tax dollars for the major corporations, at all of our peril.

I'm sadly not too convinced that this will happen.

There seems too many willing and eager to follow the latest Public/Private Option Democratic spokesperson with no critical analysis or thought.

There are far too many who say, "If Ernie Duncan, Obama's hand chosen Sect. of Education is for it, then it must be "progressive."

They say, "If Howard Dean is pushing a tiny non-functional public/private option insurance pool, then it must be a good thing."

Too few think for themselves and instead relegate that function to their celebrity politician of the moment. And that's a bad idea.

[Sancho]

101. I've read the applications for FL, TN, and DE once.

There are some BIG differences. Here's the scoop:

TN and DE both let teachers constantly monitor their own effectiveness; Fl does not have that system in place.
TN and DE both have a clear state metric for teacher effectiveness: TN uses value-added and DE uses gain scores; Fl leaves it to the districts and it's a mess
TN and DE both have extensive plans for staff development and mentoring of "ineffective" teachers; FL does not make that investment
TN and DE both allow tenure and TN gives a pay bonus for tenure like professors; Fl tries to get rid of tenure and due process
TN and DE both have union support; FL does not
TN and DE both take state responsibility for failing schools; FL leaves the burden to the districts
TN and DE both take responsibility for high stakes test development; TN uses HS end-of-course exams; FL leaves test development to the districts
TN and DE both allow TFA and alternative certification, but do not attack "degrees" from COE's; FL is trying to get rid of COE degrees

I can see why FL was not as good an application. Eric Smith misrepresented the application on Florida Face to Face in an interview this week. After going to Washington, he must be aware of the issues, but SB6 ties the hands of the DOE Race To the Top application.

[ljm2002]

14. Thus removing any incentive...

...to improve their skills and education.

Brilliant!

[madfloridian]

17. Exactly right.

It's idiotic.

[Tailormyst]

18. They will find very few teachers saying "hey FL sounds like a great place to go work"

[14thColony]

19. I see the war on education is going very well

And people ask me why I have no intention of moving back to my home state.

Just think, if our elected representatives showed such zeal in the War on Poverty we'd have eliminated it long ago.

[truebrit71]

21. My thought exactly...

...let's get rid of the good teachers and instead install underpaid learn-by-rote trainers so that the cannon-fodder can pass the standardized tests..

I weep for the future of this country..

[dgibby]

28. I seriously doubt this country has as future.

I can never remember his name, but I think the Russian professor who said he believes the US will eventually be divided into about 5 small countries is probably right.

[madfloridian]

34. Yes, it is.

Going very well, that is.

[14thColony]

37. A thought if you'll indulge me...

While I'm not one to see racism or classism behind every tree, this bill seems to be either intentionally or uninentionally designed to beat down the disadvantaged, poor, and minority schools and or school districts of the state.

I say this because I would expect that most teachers who are in "under-performing schools," being rational actors, will either seek to move to better-performing schools or leave the state entirely. Those teachers who remain at the under-performing schools, augmented perhaps by new hires, will be in even worse position to try to elevate test scores. When that well-intentioned effort inevitably fails, they will be fired or have their salaries reduced to the point they'll also leave, meaning the scores will drop yet again, and more will be fired or leave, and so on ad nauseum.

Meanwhile the affluent schools and districts will have their pick of the best of the refugee teachers and the rest will leave the state, meaning those affluent districts will flourish, attracting more and more salary (and therefore more of the education budget) away from the under-performing schools.

Or am I off-base here?

This is depressing. I'm a product of the Duval County school system, and I've gotta say I got a pretty damned good education at a not-so-great high school because I had teachers who cared and who loved their jobs. Teachers who would probably be fired is this bill passes.

[tonysam]

45. You're right. n/t

[reality2050]

93. They use to segregate by color now they plan on doing it with religion.

My subject might be radical. but think about it. This is being pushed thru after sb6,hb7189 have passed. There is very little attention given to it.

More for Florida educators to be angry about
Florida’s teachers are already up in arms about the likelihood that state lawmakers are about to end teacher tenure, require the creation of standardized tests for every single grade, and link teacher pay to student test scores.

Now there’s another doozy of a bill that the Republican-led legislature is working on that has teachers, parent, and even school superintendents aghast.

It’s SB 2126, which would expand a program that allows corporations in Florida to contribute to a fund that provides scholarships, or vouchers, for private schools. The corporations can then deduct the amount from their corporate income and insurance premium taxes.

In other words, millions tax dollars that could go to the state to help out in this difficult financial downturn would instead go to send kids to private schools, most of them Christian, Muslim and Jewish.



Never mind that the state is cutting public education (and other) funding and raising tuition at public colleges and universities. Somehow, Florida has money to help corporations help kids go to private religious schools.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/teachers/what-is-driving-florida-teache.html#more

Ps jeb still wants donations to help to dimantle public education

[14thColony]

98. Yes SB 2126 does seem to be key to the plan

[Kat45]

25. There is no way they should lose their teaching certificate

The whole bill is absurd as it seems to negate all the things that would make for good teachers. But I'd say that taking away a teaching certificate is the worst of the worst, especially since it sounds like it can be done for a stupid reason, or no reason at all. The certificate is what enables a teacher's livelihood; without it, he or she is unable to work. What is wrong with these people?

:wtf:

[csziggy]

26. Just called my Representative's office - they recommend contacting

The Florida House leadership, which of course, is all Republicsns.
If anyone wants to email them, go to http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/SECTIONS/Representatives/representatives.aspx and locate their names to go to their personal pages. But my eamil is not working today so they gave me their phone numbers:
Speaker Larry Cretul 850-488-1450
Dean Cannon 850-488-2742
Ellen Bogdanoff 850-488-0635
Will Weatherford 850-488-5744
Adam Hasner 850-488-1993
David Riveria 850-488-7897 (his voice mail was full when I called a few minutes ago)

I'd post the emails but my main computer is down and the one I am on is slow connecting.

[ima_sinnic]

33. my head just exploded

this is possibly the most bizarre and misguided legislation I've heard of in a long while.
I still have friends in that state, where I lived for 9 years but left 3 years ago, but fortunately they are all too old to have children. My heart goes out to anyone whose life will be affected by this damaging law.

[MichiganVote]

35. So now their pay will be based on the same dumb ass politicians who pass the bill

Affirmative Action a la Obama style. And how much was spent by Districts and teachers to become "highly qualified" under the Bush NCLB rules? Yeah that worked well.

So here's the logic. For eight years teachers we told you to bust your chops getting highly qualified and now we just want you to graduate in just about anything and work for just about nothing. Now go away, we have a bank and an insurance company to bail out.

Next to continuing the Afghan "war", this is the dumbest thing this administration has endorsed.

[lpbk2713]

36. Clearly their goal is mediocrity.

There can be no doubt about it. And I find that disgusting.

[Posteritatis]

38. If that's their target I think they overshot.. (nt)

[Posteritatis]

39. As someone at the opposite side of the continent I'm wondering what happened to the teacher unions?

I know those are getting hammered on a lot lately, but it feels like you'd have to dissolve them outright to run something this vile through.

[madfloridian]

40. Not really. You just hijack them by putting your own leaders at the top.

For example the UFT president was a teacher at the Eli Broad Superintendents Academy in 2002.

Get your guys in there closing schools and running unions. You have got it made.

[madfloridian]

41. I am waiting for this post to be ridiculed as well.

So be it.

[Fire1]

42. Once again, good luck finding the "brightest and the best." n/t

[LibDemAlways]

43. Pretty obvious the idiots who cooked this misguided bill up have never

set foot in a classroom as a teacher.

All this is doing, besides giving teachers an incentive to flee poorer schools, is forcing them into a position where they'll be unable to do anything other than teach the test and hope their students do ok.

Education no longer has much to do with critical thinking. It's all memorize a bunch of crap and regurgitate it before promptly forgetting it.

When Florida finds it impossible to hire new teachers, they'll be forced to change it. Just stupid.

[Chemical Bill]

44. Why should teachers be smarter than their students?

:sarcasm:

[cureautismnow]

47. This will give some students extraordinary power over their teachers.

The Florida drop-out age is 16. Roughly, 25% of Florida students drop out of high school. These students will now have incentives to intentionally fail their standardized tests to get back at teachers they don't like - by hitting them in their wallets. The crooked Repukes in Tally should be rounded up and sent to Raiford. :puke:

[donco6]

49. Get. Out. Now.

There's nothing at the end of this road but heartbreak and destitution.

[tonysam]

50. Teachers.net message board has a forum for Florida teachers

Florida Teachers Board

It's worth taking a look to find out what is happening there from the standpoint of teachers.

[etherealtruth]

51. WTF

How can one not consider advanced degrees when determining salaries?

More disturbing: How in the world will you attract qualified, talented, effective teachers to work with disadvantaged children .... how will you retain any decent teachers is these districts?

[lib2DaBone]

52. Over 50% of Real Estate Tax Bills in Fla are School Board Taxes and levys...

..This whole thing is about private bankers and politicians who are dying to get their hands on huge chunks of school board money that they can control and divert to their own pockets.

Charter Schools = the Goldman Sachs gang at work again.

If they can steal Social Security Funds and corrupt the School Funds... this represents the remaining wealth yet to be transferred from the middle class up to the Plutocrats.

[corpseratemedia]

96. +1

[McCamy Taylor]

53. This bill is designed to make it easier for private schools to hire teachers.

Right now, the privates and charters have to compete with the public school system. By making public school jobs onerous, the law is actually a back hand way of promoting a two tiered education system in which white Christians will be given complete priority.

[tonysam]

54. And they'll still pay shit to their teachers.

Typically private schools pay about half what public schools pay.

[Skittles]

55. they shouldn't

I've worked all my life with nitwits who have "advanced degrees" and know SHIT - pay should increase with PERFORMANCE

[madfloridian]

56. Then call me a nitwit. Disparage education.

It is expected here now.

[Skittles]

58. I'm not disparaging education

I'm saying someone whould not get extra pay based SOLELY on the fact they have degrees - raises should be based on PERFORMANCE

[tonysam]

59. You can't define "performance" when it comes to education.

It's the KIDS who are ultimately responsible for learning.

Education ISN'T a business and can't be run on business models.

[madfloridian]

60. Well said.

:hi:

[Skittles]

62. so how do you define based on degrees?

I know people with advanced degrees who are absolute twits....very often degrees just mean a person had a lot of money and time

[timtom]

77. Absolutely correct, dear Skittles!

Having worked in a staff position or two in a small university setting, my hubris (based solely on experience) has led me to declare: "I eat PhD's for lunch!" A whimsical statement, to be sure, but true way more often than I'd like.

In fact, I know a chap who's working on his doctorate in education. I brought up this absurd legislation, and he defended it, muttering some bullshit about "accountability." I countered with the absurdity of teaching to a test, and he began to back down. But...he's still an idiot.

[Robb]

82. It's a matter peculiar to academia, not just education.

Mrs. Robb and I go around and around on this, as I never got a high school diploma. :D

In her field, jobs simply state the required degrees that the applicant must hold. Mine was performance-based, if you will -- I won several state-wide awards for my work, and routinely reminded my boss I couldn't get a job at a gas station without a GED, yet he hired me and look at the plaques we get to put on the wall.

[Sancho]

102. How do you protect the public from harm?

If that is the case, should someone practice medicine without a degree or license? Degrees, certification, and all the on-going requirements to stay current are typical of professionals like teachers, doctors, and similar things. It is a MINIMUM so that you protect the public, but not a guarantee that someone isn't able to do a great job or have knowledge without the degree.

Florida had 11,000 teachers leave in 80-09, and about 3000 were non-renewed presumably for ineffectiveness. Actually, you can dig around in any state and see that doctors loose their license, lawyers are disbarred, etc. Yes, some slip through and many are slow to act, but it is not correct to say that there is no way to get rid of bad professionals. I've taught in three states and seen the actions of state standards and ethics boards. Most of them have a full slate and they are pretty tough on professional violations.

In the long run, the minimums are more worthwhile than letting anyone do whatever they want, because the number of quacks and nuts will exceed those few competent folks who learned by the seat of their pants.

[14thColony]

71. Hit the nail right on the head

This is an attempt to apply a business model to education isn't it? And using the worst possible metric in the process.

[Dappleganger]

80. It certainly does seem that you're disparaging education.

Ironic, isn't it? That a profession which teaches education should be the most discouraged from actually obtaining the most education possible? Teachers don't pursue advanced degrees out of sheer boredom, you know. It's done to improve their profession, to give them additional tools to better teach MY children. Now you are agreeing w/those who say that only RESULTS matter (and immediate results, not long-term results), not education nor experience.

I hoped to have expected higher standards on a DU board regarding this issue but it seems like I was dead wrong.

[MadHound]

74. You're judging by your own anecdotal experience

I've also worked with several people with advanced degrees who did indeed know their shit, and deserved the pay they got for those advanced degrees. Yes, pay should increase with performance, but it should also increase with experience even more so, and with obtaining advanced degrees, which in and of themselves impart experience. Virtually every other profession pays more for those who get advanced degrees, why shouldn't education?

[DainBramaged]

57. Florida, the first school-less state.

The exodus will be painful, and Florida will become the 50th state in scholastic achievement VERY quickly.

[tonysam]

89. They arrogantly believe there will be thousands and thousands of teachers

to take the departing teachers' places.

That's the reasoning behind this neoliberal scheme.

[kwassa]

61. All Children Left Behind. All Teachers Left Behind, too.

If it passes, it will be, for the rest of us, a test of this idiot philosophy that dominates educational philosophy right now.

I have no doubt of the results.

[tooeyeten]

64. No experience or furthering education means...

lower salaries.

[amborin]

65. the race to the bottom, teaching version! bust the unions, denigrate skills & exp, hire scabs

off the street, etc.....

[Art_from_Ark]

69. The Florida State Legislature's motto:

"Helping to put the "duh" in Flori-DUH!"

[JCMach1]

70. Florida Repigs are some of the most disgusting POS in this country

Absolutely disgusting.

[14thColony]

72. It's not that they don't understand the impact, it's that they don't care

These legislators aren't so stupid they can't pretty easily figure out the negative feedback loop that will go into action almost immediately, it's just that THEY DON'T CARE. Their kids are in private schools, or already out of secondary education, or in affluent public school districts that are more than likely going to benefit from this legislation, not be harmed by it.

Of course those districts will benefit at the cost of poorer and/or minority school districts, but why on earth should they care? Their kids aren't going to be affected, and the solidly red nature of many of those districts won't be affected by this law -- in main the voters there often don't have the critical thinking skills to link this law to their own decreasing quality of life.

[Daphne08]

73. Teachers will simply leave the profession or move

to other states, and who will be the losers? The students will.

[MJJP21]

75. I don't agree

Sorry folks but I don't agree on this as being a bad thing. I am all for having competent teachers but here in PA teachers go out and get extra training to add to their resume regardless of whether is helps in class or not. For the vast majority of students for better or worse the course is "off the shelf", the tests are supplied and the answers given. "Off the shelf means the course is purchased and then administered via a teacher. There is not time or opportunity to delve into the subject matter like many of you believe. Now once teachers get this additional training in subjects that may or may not help them they are entitled to have a permanent increase in their pay forever. I find it hard to believe we need teachers with a masters degrees and more to teach students a canned curriculum especially up to the grades of 8 or 9th. Degrees and certificates beyond that should be for exceptional students and programs.

[Canuckistanian]

78. Wow, are you ever... misinformed

Teaching is the WORST paid job that you need a college degree to do. I don't see people like you complaining about an civil engineer's rate of pay or a government lawyers' salary.

I'm astounded to see otherwise intelligent people denigrating what teachers do - and to believe that their job is simple and requires no further training. Or that more education beyond the basics would be superfluous.

Subjects are changing fast, demographics are shifting dramatically - I like the idea of a teacher who can understand and ANTICIPATE changes - not one that uses the same lesson plan year after year, adding NOTHING to the student's education.

Teachers are much, much more than just automatons whose job it is to drill facts and figures into empty brains.

And if you don't like "canned curricula", why are you so hot for denying recognition to teachers? Because that's all that will be left. Not professionals, but clerks with a quota.

The REALLY smart teachers will be gone. Nobody stays where they're not wanted.

[Atman]

79. Florida: Racing to The Bottom

Sheesh...this isn't the place where I grew up. Florida is on the forefront of the new Idiocracy.

[Dappleganger]

81. As a parent with four kids deeply invested in this school system...

I'm shaking with fury at what has been done. We DO live in the best system in the state, and to think that those repukes can just screw around with that without even contacting Dr. Joyner, teachers or parents here is just completely un-American!

I may just go Tea-bagger all over them, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

[raccoon]

83. Maddy, I think you are misnamed. It appears from your posts that

many in FL have gone mad. Only I bet they don't realize it.

You call yourself mad, therefore, you must not be, because if you were you wouldn't know it.

Like Catch-22. :hi: :toast:

[madfloridian]

91. heh heh

Yes, many here have gone mad...esp. those in Tallahassee.

[LWolf]

84. I truly have no more words for this.

I am at once enraged, grieved, and fearful.

[marew]

85. I am a retired FL teacher.

I spent decades in education in FL and always received excellent evaluations. There are a few teachers who, as in every profession, need to be removed. That being said, what I saw for the most part for all those years were dedicated professionals who went above and beyond day after day. We didn't go into education to get rich, we did it because we cared.
One thing that truly was discouraging was the behavior of so many principals. One married principal was having an affair with the reading specialist and we could hear giggles regularly coming from behind a closed door. Another principal changed into her shorts in the middle of the day and left to go to her exercise class, returning about an hour and a half later. Still another principal frequently left early to go out on his boat which was docked in an marina behind a different school where people knew who he was and would watch him sail off. Still another principal regularly ran personal errands during the school day. I know this for sure because I needed to have a conference with him about a student and he invited me to come along. We talked as he stopped at his bank, picked up dry cleaning, etc. Once an assistant principal showed me a nude picture of a woman he found in a folder on a principal's desk when he'd he's been looking for a needed document. Another principal gave a teacher, his buddy, a gift of extra money by assigning him a tennis supplement in a school that did not have a tennis team and was actually a school for severely handicapped students. In fact several teachers and I did go to an area superintendent on one occasion about the behavior of a certain principal. The asst. superintendent was incensed by what she heard and immediately went to the school to visit the principal. That same principal attempted to retaliate by giving those of us who reported him poor evaluations which were removed from our files by the asst. superintendent. It is truly frightening that a teacher who might stand up to such poor, extremely unprofessional behavior may find it increasingly difficult now to keep his/or her job.
I have worked for very demanding principals also who have only the highest motivations and expectations for themselves and teachers. I was warned once about moving to another school and was told that principal had an "attitude." Yes, he did, he was tough. But when evaluation time came around I heard I got one of the best evaluations he'd given anyone in years.
I also saw parents who made every excuse they could to justify their little darlings' disrespect and noncompliance. Janie couldn't do her homework because they went to the movies. Johnnie didn't do his reading assignment because he was tired after Boy Scouts. Joey argued back because we want him to express himself. Children, many of them, expect to be entertained, not taught. We've all seen parents and kids in restaurants where the kid is sitting there watching a DVD instead of learning how to behave appropriately in a social setting. We were told as children learning is work and, as children, we were responsible in putting forth some effort. No more. Teachers are to be evaluated based on student achievement which, in actuality, they have only limited control. The student may have come to school hungry because there's not enough food at home, tired because parents were up all night screaming at each other, depressed because they've been emotionally abused, and on and on. Yet still, if that student does not progress, it is all the teacher's fault. Let's just ignore Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It is now and forever, always the teacher's fault. And that stinks!

[tonysam]

88. +1,000 n/t

[BulletproofLandshark]

87. I'm so happy my niece will be leaving that shithole in June.

She deserves to have her last three years of high school somewhere where her teachers aren't subject to such rampant ignorance and greed. But I do feel for all the kids that aren't so lucky.

[BlooInBloo]

92. Teachers want to ensure they remain as stupid as possible of course...

Competition from smarter folks* ? No way man.

*Even if it's only marginally so, in the case of "advanced" education degrees

[LetsgoWings13]

94. thats messed up.

how can they punish great teachers!

[npk]

95. Dear teachers in Florida. I would get the FUCK out as fast as I could

It aint worth it.

[RockaFowler]

97. Do tell me . . .

How are they going to judge those teachers in the Arts?? They don't have standardized tests for acting and/or music. Not every teacher works with these tests. So do they cut all of the teachers in that school?? My God what a bunch of morons those Republicans, especially that douche Senator who started all of this crap. I am so sickened by this state. Can't we just secede down here in South Florida?? We would be better off without those yahoos up there in the North!!!!

[trumad]

99. One kid in 10th---one in 9th and one in 6th

Florida is simply trying to eliminate public schooling and funnel the money into private coffers.

Florida is trying hard to fulfill Grover Norchrist's dream of drowning the Government in a bathtub.

[LWolf]

104. It didn't seem to matter in Central Falls, did it?

The ENTIRE STAFF was fired, regardless of whether or not they taught one of the tested subjects that supposedly designated them as "failing."

And that wasn't even Florida.

I hope Florida voters hold their state legislature to the fire for this. :grr:

[Sancho]

100. There are almost 50,000 facebook fans to stop this bill...

if the House allows amendments it will go back to the Senate where it may not pass a second time. Crist seems to be thinking about a veto. I hope that everyone keeps the calls and emails coming in!

[Sancho]

103. There is a hugh racist part of the Florida bill...

it requires colleges who license teachers to make NO EXCEPTIONS to admissions decisions. That is important, but even though the exams, grades, and certification tests are the same for everyone, most colleges admit a number of minorities by exception in order to get diversity. Those students still have to do all the same requirements to graduate and get a license to teach, but often come from 1st generation college families or poor HS's. If you eliminate exceptions, then your teacher education programs will be white as a ghost!

Also, the bill REQUIRES student teaching to be in classrooms where the kids have high test scores and excludes student teachers from working in classrooms with low-scoring kids. That means that ALL the potential teachers will have NO EXPERIENCE with minority and low SES kids, because we know there is a big test score gap between demographics in the schools today.

Those two hidden clauses will mean that almost all teachers graduating in 4 years will be white, middle-class teachers trained to teach white, middle-class kids.

The people who put those parts in knew that they wanted to eliminate minority teachers and they don't want their kids to have any black or hispanic teachers.

[lazarus]

106. +1

[madfloridian]

108. Good point.

:hi:

[alp227]

105. What a slap in the face to hardworking teachers

who worked so long to make enough money to earn those advanced degrees...only to have the state spit on their diplomas by saying "you won't get a raise because of your 2 PhDs".

Meanwhile, I've heard that prison guards in Florida get monthly bonuses for KO'ing the most inmates. True? :tinfoilhat:

[boppers]

107. Looks like a mix of good ideas and totally short-sighted ones.

A degree (or three) is not what makes a teacher good, credentials are pieces of paper, not actions. Nobody is entitled to earn more, in perpetuity, for mere credentials... especially when so many colleges are basically diploma mills.

That being said, a teacher who takes 9th grade students, reading at a 6th grade level, and in one year gets them to an 8th grade level (2 grades), is far more valuable than a teacher who takes 9th grade students, and gets them reading at a 10th grade level (1 grade). At the end of the year, the first teacher's students are still below the desired standard, but they've learned more, faster. This bill doesn't seem to "get" how important such a thing is.

Of course, there are also teachers who get students who read at a 6th grade level in the 9th grade, and by the end of the year, there's been no change (or worse, the students drop to a 5th grade level). Teachers like that simply don't deserve tenure. The bill *sort of* gets that, but doesn't seem to provide real solutions, other than setting up an evolutionary mechanism (via pay) to weed out teachers.

[madfloridian]

109. Did you know it takes 3 years to get tenure in Florida?

You sound like it is something easy to get. It is not easy at all.

You are wrong about the bill on so many levels. It assumes that teachers don't get better with experience, of course teachers do.

You are swallowing the propaganda hook line and sinker.

Most here are doing that because it is the Democrats pushing the privatization of education through to its finality.

We fought the Republicans and did not let them do that.

It will take a Democratic president with no one standing up to him on this issue....to destroy public education.

[boppers]

110. Only three years? Yikes.

Three years is nothing. That's, well, a drop in the bucket of a career.

As far as the "experience" angle goes, across all professions, some people get better with experience.

Some don't.

Claiming that time has no effect is just as false as claiming that time always has a positive effect. Some teachers (engineers, dancers, welders, whatever) get *worse* over time, some get better.

If teachers really want to get a handle on the propaganda wars, they can champion a way of holding themselves accountable.

If they don't, others will.... either in public, or private, systems.

[tonysam]

111. "Tenure" isn't a lifetime job. I wish people would quit believing this shit.

All tenured teachers get is the right to a kangaroo hearing if they are dismissed because they are brainwashed to think they have rights against a vindictive or incompetent principal. I know what I am talking about because I went through this bullshit where my principal--this piece of human shit--fired me NOT knowing ONE THING about Nevada administrative law. But did it matter? Hell, no, not when HR's chief crook "fixed" it for her and thus himself because he spearheaded it, and they committed all kinds of questionable and criminal acts to keep this piece of shit on the payroll--and at my expense. I have NO career at 55 while this shitbag still has hers--her only "punishment" is she got moved to another school. She was going around Facebook bragging about her recent Christmas vacation to Hawaii scuba diving, belly bumping with the giant manta rays while they were feeding, and getting a "one-of-a-kind tattoo." She was until I sent her a "nice" note telling her what a sociopathic piece of shit she is for pulling what she did on me. She had and has utterly NO conscience over what she did to me. She deleted her FB account.

Teachers have no more "due process" rights than a burger flipper at McDonald's--seriously. It's because administrative law is always--ALWAYS--in favor of the employer no matter how much they screw up. Teachers are typically too penniless to appeal these decisions, as lawyers demand fees up front since there are no damages to collect. And suing them in civil court is similarly prohibitive and lawyers are loathe to go up against school districts with their unlimited funds. Teachers are screwed, totally screwed, in this system.

All tenure REALLY does is put a brake on a dipshit principal's worst impulses to get rid of teachers he or she doesn't like and save the districts money on hearings and lawsuits. Without it, there would be MORE abuse of teachers and even more lawsuits.

[boppers]

114. Wow.

"shit... kangaroo hearing... brainwashed... piece of human shit... chief crook... this piece of shit... shitbag.... sociopathic piece of shit"

So, I take it you were fired for your diplomacy, politeness, and eloquence?

[bookman]

116. Sounds like many administrators

I had a Superintendent I'd describe that way.

He ended up going to jail.

[madfloridian]

112. Amazing. And your thoughts seem to be in the majority here at DU

If Bush were doing the things to education that Obama and Duncan are doing, most here would have been supportive of teachers rather than let Bush do it.

You sound like you are threatening teachers. That earns you a big big effing good bye from me.

You said:

"If teachers really want to get a handle on the propaganda wars, they can champion a way of holding themselves accountable.

If they don't, others will.... either in public, or private, systems."

It is sad to read your post and your thoughts, but I realize many at DU now hold teachers in contempt.

They do it because Obama and Duncan hold them in contempt.

[boppers]

113. I hold people who think they are *above accountability* in contempt, yes.

I don't think all teachers, as a class, believe they are beyond being held responsible.

There are some who seem to think so, however, and those people should not be teachers.

Nail technicians and phone sterilizers, maybe those are good jobs for people who refuse any responsibility, but teaching is too important a job to fill the ranks with folks who don't care about measurable improvement.

[Sancho]

117. Urge Gov. Crist to veto this bill!

Call Crist: [phone]
Email Crist: [e-mail]
Mail Gov. Crist by this Saturday!
Office of the Governor Charlie Crist State of FL The Capitol 400 S. Monroe St., Tallahassee, FL 32399

VETO SB6 AND HB7189