Pa. lawmaker wants investigation of gun-rights sign that invoked lynching

[billbuckhead]

Pa. lawmaker wants investigation of gun-rights sign that invoked lynching

Associated Press

HARRISBURG - A Philadelphia lawmaker said Wednesday he has asked Capitol police to investigate whether any laws were broken when two participants in a gun-rights rally held up a banner calling for him to be "hung from the tree of liberty."

If police determine that criminal charges are warranted, "then we'll take it from there," said state Rep. Angel Cruz. "We live in strange times, and we take all threats seriously, because we just don't know who's capable of doing what."
------------snip---------------------
The banner was displayed in the Capitol Rotunda during Tuesday's rally in protest of legislation sponsored by Cruz, a Democrat of Puerto Rican descent, to require gun registration and a $10-a-gun annual fee. The banner said Cruz "should be hung from the tree of liberty for treasonous acts against the constitution."
------------snip---------------------
<http://www.observer-reporter.com/OR/Story/04_26_GunRightsRally_2>


This is nothing new from the "gun rights" crowd, remember when then NRA leader Charlton Heston offered to supply the rope to lynch Al Gore back in 2000?

[virginia mountainman]

1. Yawn..... N/T

[karlrschneider]

2. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

z

[derby378]

3. Yet another case of "I reject your reality and substitute my own"

We're here, we're gun owners, and we're not going away. Might as well try to find common ground with us instead of trying to antagonize us all the time. Too many kids and college students are being killed in our nation while everyone bickers and flares their nostrils.

[billbuckhead]

5. We're not going away either and the whole rest of the civilized world is on our side

The last time 2nd amendment miltia types actually got a chance to fight the federal government, Uncle Billy Sherman rolled over all these militas in the heart of the confederacy in fairly rapid and devastating order, like a higher power was on his side or something.

[derby378]

7. Oh, Billy...

You've got to get all of your enemies straight. Seriously. I'm starting to worry about you, here.

[EstimatedProphet]

24. Right, Bill - EVERYONE agrees with you

6 billion people on the planet, and all of them but the 4-5 million gun owners in America completely agree with you.

[billbuckhead]

6. Thw whole rest of the industrialized world has the answer

We have 32 dead at one time from one person with a gun and the whole of Britain only had 46 deaths from guns last year and 1/4 the murders overall. Even Switzerland is changing to stronger gun regulations.

Why won't Americans admit failure?

[derby378]

10. Care to state facts instead of hyperbole?

Last I heard, gun crime overall was rising in the UK ever since they outlawed handguns. The picture you paint apparently isn't complete.

[billbuckhead]

11. Here's reputable link that says gun homicide in UK was 20 year low last year

"Britain's 46 homicides involving firearms last year was the lowest since the late 1980s."
<http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1611932,00.html>

[derby378]

12. And after banning handguns, they're banning samurai swords next

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/05/nsamurai105.xml

Sounds like the UK isn't getting any safer - it's merely getting more authoritarian. Especially with 1984-style surveillance cameras popping up all over the nation in the name of "fighting terrorism."

It's the easy way out to ban weapons rather than actually discouraging crime from happening in the first place.

[billbuckhead]

15. Why not ban samurai swords if they being used as a substitute for guns?

That being said they're not a very good substitute for guns.

[derby378]

20. I have a truly radical notion...

Why not simply work to correct the social ills that help breed crime within a particular nation instead of imposing punitive measures on that nations law-abiding citizens? Why not treat the disease instead of pretending to treat the symptoms by taking away privacy, civil rights, etc.?

You want a safer America? Nothing wrong with that, of course. But take a good look at the single word about Washington's head on that quarter in your pocket. It says LIBERTY, not SAFETY. And I've reached a point in my life where my liberty (and yours) is non-negotiable.

[billbuckhead]

22. What about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

It's hard to have civil rights if you're dead.

If widespread gun ownership made this happen, iraq would be paradise. The European solution to gun regulation a wonderous success compared to the 30,000 dead Americans every year. America is the ONLY industrialized nation with these ridiculously weak laws and the only one with this carnage.

[Paladin]

42. Another Restatement of The Latest Gun Hugger Talking Point

"Leave our guns alone and take care of all the social problems." Fair enough---you go find the several trillion dollars it will take to correct all those societal ills, along with the public will to actually expend those dollars where they will do the most good, and maybe we can talk.

In the meantime, the huge supply of easily-obtainable guns, imposed on all those social troubles, is an impermissable burden for us to bear.

Still waiting for you to do suggest something constructive and proactive about the gun problem in this country. I'm not holding my breath, however.....

[derby378]

43. WHAT "gun problem?"

It's not my fault that Herr Decider took all the money that could have been used to further social gains in America and pissed it all away in Iraq. Defund the occupation and bring our troops home where they belong, and you'll probably have all the cash you need to start banging the rocks together.

In the meantime, blaming the Second Amendment for our social troubles is a non-starter. So I'm left sitting here waiting for someone to make the next move towards making America better without infringing on our rights. It's sort of a tortoise-and-hare thing, here...

[tularetom]

4. I could really give a shit about this story

An idiot proposes to register all guns and two other idiots propose to lynch him. Big fuckin deal.

[Robson]

8. This about the same Rep Cruz in 2005

http://www.phillyfuture.org/node/1719

[billbuckhead]

9. Then impeach him, don't lynch him!

Do you support Chalton Heston supplying the rope to lynch Al Gore?

[virginia mountainman]

13. Billy trying to stir up racial hatreds here..

Typical...When the facts don't back there arguments up, they resort to racial tactics.

[billbuckhead]

14. Point out which facts were wrong?

What about only 46 deaths from guns in Britain last year? A twenty year low. Quite an acheivement.

[Robson]

17. Britain is not my idea of utopia

Britain has turned into a police state with one TV camera for almost every citizen, and the cameras bark orders at citizens. No thanks, I want no parts of England.

http://www.rabble.ca/in_her_own_words.shtml?x=58617

Where is "V" when you need him?

[billbuckhead]

18. Other European nations with strong gun regs had even lower murder rates

Even Switzerland is changing, soon only red states will left.

Even an impoverished nation like India with a caste system had a lower murder rate than the US.
<http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita>

[EstimatedProphet]

25. And if all the other countries had stronger gun laws, you might have a point

But they don't. Some do, some don't. You keep going on about Switzerland, but Switzerland has traditionally had very common gun ownership, even of the dreaded semiautomatics. And all the while, they still had low gun violence. That is an indication that the guns themselves aren't the problem.

[billbuckhead]

33. The Swiss are changing to EU style gun laws, they know something you don't

[LeftishBrit]

50. Have you ever actually been to England?

(1) The current government is indeed too preoccupied with surveillance as a means of preventing 'terrorism'. Yes, there are too many cameras. But WHERE did you get the idea that we have cameras that *bark orders at citizens*? I have NEVER had orders barked at me by a camera in all my life!!!! This would in fact be counter-productive from a surveillance point of view, as it would show people where the cameras are, and lead to their being avoided or more likely vandalized. No one here would take orders from a camera!!!!!

(2) We have ALWAYS had gun control, and have NEVER had a gun culture (with the exception of farmers and some mostly upper-class rural hunters). Guns simply aren't part of most British people's lives, and never were. The idea that we were a gun-owning society until our 'essential freedoms' were taken away and then instantly either (a) were occupied by armed gangs or (b) became a police state is ridiculous and ethnocentric. There have been few changes here as regards guns, over a very long period of time.

(3) By the same token, I am NOT trying to push our system of gun control onto you, and I recognize that it might not work in a country that already has a gun culture and lots of guns. In any case, it's not my business what gun laws another country chooses to have. But just because we choose not to want guns doesn't make us an inferior country to you! Nor should a permanent, long-standing aspect of our culture be blamed for our temporary problems with a bad Prime Minister.

(4) Personally, I would rather have the freedom to know that if I am seriously ill or unable to find a job there will be some sort of safety-net for me; to vote with paper ballots; to be openly atheist without fearing being fired or discriminated against; and other freedoms that I take for granted here, than have unlimited freedom to use a gun. My country isn't perfect, but it's not a police-state, or any less free than other countries that do allow and choose more access to guns.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

52. Your post is filled with nonsense

The opinion piece you linked to is also nonsense. "the north of England is a giant no-go area" and other assertions of that piece are ridiculous.

[billbuckhead]

34. I didn' know Al Gore was considered black, I heard that about Clinton though

So what do you the virginia mountainman, think about NRA leader Heston wanting to help hang Al Gore? Charlatan didn't have the balls to say he would actually do it, but that he would supply the rope. Sounds weasly to me, not very manly.

[Robson]

16. Democratic Party needs to take back America - not take guns from citizens

It is politicians such as this PA state representative that will give the Democratic party a bad name with much of middle America. The Democratic Party needs to worry about taking back the government for Americans and not taking firearms from law abiding citizens. I expect Bush and his Homneland Security Gestapo crew will soon be issuing orders on that to protect us from terrorism.

BTW the shooter in VT was deemed mentally deficient and should never have been able to buy a firearm.

I happen to have a respect for firearms and have had a ccw for about 35 years. I rarely carry but will put a firearm in my glove compartment if I have to go into certain high crime areas, not out of bravado, but out of necessity. I recognize fully that there are bad people that will do bad things to other people and they have no respect for laws and regulations.

[billbuckhead]

19. What does take back America mean? Sounds like propaganda.

Exchange bad Republicans for "bluedog" Dems like Zell Miller?

[aikoaiko]

21. Its a freakin metaphor -- get over it Angel Cruz

If we can burn politicians in effigy, then calling for a "hanging from the tree of liberty" is okie dokie.

[billbuckhead]

23. Then why don't you say it about George W Bush right now?

[aikoaiko]

26. I think one should be able to say that about the President without the SS knocking on the door.

There was recently an artist who depicted the President with, I think, a knife in his heart, and got a visit from the SS. I'm fine with metaphorical violence, but the SS have an obligation to determine if its a real threat or not. Congresspersons are not awarded the same level of protection.

To me, a statement thats speaks of hanging someone from the tree of liberty is a metaphor and calls from the Congressperson to investigate it only make him look a crybaby.

I would imagine someone like you would like to do away with the 1st amendment as well as the 2nd if you find the political speech unappealing. Too bad for that you live in America.

[-..__...]

28. But...

other "civilized"/"industrialized" countries have stricter laws limiting free speech.
Why can't we follow their example so fewer peoples feelings aren't hurt?

:sarcasm:

[aikoaiko]

29. LOL, that is funny.

I wish I had thought of it.

[Robson]

30. Say or think the wrong thing and you go to jail....that's not freedom

Freedom is about freedom. I'm concerned that we will soon lose our power to think or speak because someone will take offense.

[billbuckhead]

32. Calling for people's murder is free speech? A black man by lynching?

That's not free speech, that's war.

[aikoaiko]

36. Your metaphor-fu is weak, Bill.

In your above post you are now claiming that it wasn't just a threat of violence but an act of war? I love when you realize that no one is buying what you're selling because you resort to hysterical hyperbole. I can almost see you stamping your feet on the ground as you type your replies.

Bill, you have already described Cruz as not being threatened but, "some ethnic urban Philadelphia state legislator for demanding the same respect due any elected official in a democracy".

Disrepect does not equal threat.

[billbuckhead]

38. No but threatening a lynching is a threat, especially white on black, given history

Interestingly, you skirt around calling for one on Chimpy.

[aikoaiko]

40. sigh, you're hopeless.

Do you really think the protesters were inciting someone to get a rope for Rep Cruz? I don't think so. Very few murderers hold up signs declaring their intentions.

The truth is that because you don't like their political position, you want them hassled by law enforcement. You want to silence your political opponents with strong arm tactics.

Everyone wants needless gun violence reduced, but your tactics are loathsome. You are becoming a virtually discredited loner on this board.

[billbuckhead]

31. "SS knocking on the door"

:rofl: Democracy has a far better chance of controlling/regulating what kind of weapons people carry than what they can express. History tells us that. Reality tell us that when Europe enjoys murder rates multiples less than the USA because guns are generally heavily regulated and scarce. The gun issue is a litmus test of American morality that we have these promiscuous gun regualtions because it demonstrates our contempt for even American life to the rest of the world.

BTW, even with all your weapons defending you, you still stop short of calling for lynching of a very powerful reichwing white man but feel enabled to ridicule some ethnic urban Philadelphia state legislator for demanding the same respect due any elected official in a democracy.

[aikoaiko]

35. Bill, are you capable of having a conversation without fellating guns?

I swear bill, you love to bring up guns more than gun nuts. BTW, the fellating thing is a metaphor. :rofl:

This thread is about a politician asking law enforcement to investigate political speech. You even prove my point -- you wrote that Cruz is asking for a legal investigation because he doesn't feel RESPECTED and not about Cruz feeling threatened. Thank you for proving my point.

Don't you see the difference Bill? Politicians are not protected from disrespect. They are protected from threats. And yes, the SS is hypersensitive about possible threats to the President so I won't do it here. But recently the SS knocked on DU's door to investigate a perceived threat to the President and they hassled this artist (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/02/27/BAGCGOBFVU1.DTL). I will not cause DU or myself the hassle no matter how much you bait me.

You may not have realized these incidents recently happened because you have been so busy fellating guns , of course, I'm speaking metaphorically.

Thanks again, Bill, you've shown yourself to be an enemy of the 1st and 2nd amendment. Even you admit that Cruz is retaliating from feeling disrespected as a politician. I pretty sure even you cannot hide from your own words.

I know what you'll do, you'll make this issue about guns. :rofl: What's that sucking sound I hear???

[virginia mountainman]

37. Me thinks, Billy is a closeted gun-nut

The way he keeps bringing it up, come on out Billy!

[billbuckhead]

39. Terroristic threats aren't free speech & I also didn't make up the term "gun porn"

I certainly didn't make up the stereotype of gun owners either. No, that stereotype has been well earned and is on constant display on gun oriented websites.

[aikoaiko]

41. Edited: Never mind this thread has nothing to do with guns.

Its about political speech and the lengths some people will use law enforcement to intimidate political speech.

[billbuckhead]

44. Calling for someone's lynching isn't political speech, it's a crime

[aikoaiko]

45. saying a politician should be "hung from the tree of Liberty" is a metaphor.

Lets see if these men are convicted of a crime related to threats of violence. If they are, I will donate $25 to the Brady Campaign, but if they are not, then you get to donate $25 to the NRA. We can ask a mod or Skinner to be the third party.

Do you accept this challenge?

[billbuckhead]

46. Just because they're not convicted doesn't mean they're not guilty

That's not a challenge but an acknowledgment that America is broken.

[aikoaiko]

47. According to Bill: 1st Amendment protection of political speech = America is broken

Well, I'll stop responding to this thread, but I hope you see my point. I see your point (and Cruz's) that its a little off putting to see a sign that speaks of being hung from the tree of liberty, but he is a politician and must accept his opponents are permitted to use metaphors when criticizing his record.

[billbuckhead]

48. Defending the the threat of murder as free speech is despicable

The fact that so much of the gun lobby astroturf defends this act speaks volumes about their honor, courage and morality.

[spoony]

51. Well go build a time machine and throw Jefferson in the brig.

That's where the tree of liberty image comes from.

[beevul]

49. Lets see...

"Democracy has a far better chance of controlling/regulating what kind of weapons people carry than what they can express."


"Gun free" zones don't seem to be working so well, and yet..."free speech" zones IIRC have done quite a job on free speech.


Come back to reality.

[-..__...]

27. At least there's one little ray of sunshine in the article...

His bill is not likely to go anywhere because gun owners claim strong support from leaders and rank-and-file members of both parties in the House.

Democratic Leader Bill DeWeese of Waynesburg has promised to consign it "to oblivion."

:toast:

Cruz needs to pull his head out from his ass or find a new job.
He's in the wrong business if he can't handle criticism from his detractors.