Toyota, Flying Saucers And Bigfoot

[PBS Poll-435]

Toyota, Flying Saucers And Bigfoot
Jerry Flint , 03.23.10, 03:15 PM EDT
Forbes.com

Toyota has had a bit of good news in recent days. One of the claims of unintended acceleration has begun to look like a phony. Totota itself put out a press release calling the claim by James Sikes, involving a Prius hybrid in California, into question. In New York, a Prius accident was called "driver error" by the police. And the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration looked at the car and said it didn’t find anything wrong. They both are being nice about it.

Then The New York Times ran an op-ed piece by a UCLA psychology professor (emeritus) questioning all such claims. The writer, who had worked on the issue years ago, wrote that they were usually driver error--stepping on the accelerator pedal instead of the brakes--and noting that older drivers tend to make these mistakes more often.

No. What’s still true is that the claims of unintended acceleration are unproven--they are just someone’s word with no physical evidence. But the press takes them for real without serious questioning. It is amazing. Just imagine if the press had been as serious about flying saucers or kidnapping by aliens from outer space?
Why would people make such claims?

1. They might believe them. People step on the accelerator instead of the brakes--this has happened to many of us, including this writer--but many cannot believe they were on the wrong pedal, especially after an accident. Or they might have dreams of the big payoff--money from Toyota ( in a lawsuit. The press has counted more than 100 class actions filed. Lawyers remember the cigarette bonanza. And states and cities, short of money, are filing suits, too.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Has the sudden acceleration ever been reproduced in a controlled environment?

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2. Not that I know of.

I hear that you can pull some wires from firewall-forward, strip this insulation, hook them up to some stuff and then you will get the intended result.

Plus, ABC was so saddened by the lack of SUI, they actually put a sedan in park, stomped their lazy ass foot on the gas, and taped the Tach (in park) to demonstrate SUI.

[The Straight Story]

5. Have black holes? :) Here is toyota's faq about the recall (blame a supplier)

Why are mechanically similar Lexus and Scion vehicles not involved in this recall?
The recall involved pedal is confined to one of Toyota’s suppliers. That supplier’s pedals are not used on Lexus and Scion vehicles.

What is the problem that could cause accelerators to stick and led to the recall?
The issue involves a friction device in the pedal designed to provide the proper “feel” by adding resistance and making the pedal steady and stable.

This friction device includes a “shoe” that rubs against an adjoining surface during normal pedal operation. Due to the materials used, wear and environmental conditions, these surfaces may, over time, begin to stick and release instead of operating smoothly. In some cases, friction could increase to a point that the pedal is slow to return to the idle position or, in rare cases, the pedal sticks, leaving the throttle partially open.

What is the solution Toyota announced to fix sticking accelerator pedals?
Toyota’s engineers have developed and rigorously tested a solution that is both effective and simple. A precision-cut steel reinforcement bar will be installed into the accelerator pedal assembly, thereby eliminating the excess friction that has caused pedals to stick in rare instances.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/customer-faqs-regarding-the-sticking-153495.aspx

[Romulox]

9. It's a legally established fact--admitted to by the company's President in Congressional hearings.

:hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

11. OK.

But have they reproduced it in a controlled environment?

:hi:

[Romulox]

14. If they can't, then isn't their current "fix" (shims) just *another* fraud?

:hi:

[Tesha]

38. The problem with the CTS pedal has been well-reproduced.

What *HASN'T* been reproduced is any woo-woo "it's got to
be something in the firmware!" bullshit.

Tesha

[LiberalFighter]

3. If it was older drivers that tended to make these mistakes more often

then it would be happening to the same or near degree with other vehicles.

Who is doing their PR? Karl Rove? Ari Fleischer?

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4. Need to have sales or registration statistics also

I can't think of any sedan sold in the US that has a higher average owner age than a Toyota Avalon. Perhaps the Grand Marquis/Crown Victoria.

Here's an interesting story regarding an out-of-control Lincoln Town Car (same front engine/rear drive platform as the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis)

Ford's Fatal Cruise


The driver of this 1998 Lincoln Town Car
was severely injured and her young daughter
killed when the cruise control actuator
cable caused the throttle to remain open
as she was trying to bring the vehicle to
a stop.




Millions of drivers and occupants of Ford cars, trucks and SUVs today are at risk of losing control of their vehicles and being involved in deadly high-speed crashes as the result of defects in the design of the electronic speed control ("cruise control") systems employed in Ford vehicles. For the past two decades, Ford Motor Company has reaped huge profits from selling the popular cruise control system as an option to customers without warning them about what Ford has known: that the speed control system in their vehicles could fail in a variety of ways and cause an out-of-control acceleration, leading to severe injury and death.

Ford's engineers have admitted that their speed control system can

(1) misinterpret electronic signals generated within the vehicle and suddenly accelerate without any driver input;
(2) react to externally-generated radio transmissions and suddenly go out of control; and

(3) fail to disengage or allow the throttle to return to idle when the driver is attempting to slow down or stop, suddenly working against and sometimes overpowering the driver's braking action.

http://www.safetyforum.com/fordsua/

Men and women of all ages and walks of life have experienced these events, often times with fatal and tragic results.
In one case, a Hertz lot attendant at an airport facility got into a Lincoln Town Car that had just been returned by a customer, intending to drive it through the car wash. He turned on the ignition. The instant he put it into "Drive," the Town Car roared off and careened into several other Hertz vehicles and a building. He swore that he had his foot on the brake when engaging the gear, as he had done with hundreds of other Ford vehicles in the Hertz lot that week. He was fired from his job.

[LeftyMom]

6. The Crown Vic is mostly a fleet car. Was, actually, since it's being discontinued.

At the moment the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis/Town Car line is winding down and only being sold for fleet sales. That will end in Sept for the TC and I don't know about the others. But your CV's would skew lower than you'd think since they were until recently the cop car and taxi of choice, and the TC would similarly skew low because of limo drivers. But they probably had just about the oldest demographic for non-fleet sales, excluding maybe Buick, which is pretty much the official vehicle of the Really Fucking Old. I mean really, I don't think they even advertise on non-golf TV.

But this is a well known, if infrequent issue with older drivers, usually they just drive into the side of a bank or something, but that old guy who took out half of a farmer's market in Santa Monica a few years back thought he was braking hurt 50-something people and killed 10. FWIW, he was driving a Buick.

Throw in some media-fueled hysteria and you probably get more drivers who panic instead of checking to see where they've got their foot.

[elocs]

7. DU tends to have the same mindset as other places when they smell blood in the water.

They pile on. Once there was the real problem with Toyotas accelerating, then those who own them became hyper about it. Even if the accelerator had been sticky for weeks (and they let it go without bothering to take it in). I think there are those who view this as an opportunity for a lawsuit payday. And yes, the media has allowed many of these cases to pass through unquestioned since it is now fashionable to bash Toyota.

What next? McDonalds being accused of selling coffee that is too hot? Oops, already happened.

[Romulox]

8. Toyota's customers are just stupid and old (likely both). Makes sense!

:sarcasm:

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10. Thanks for checkin' in!

:hi:

[B Calm]

12. That's what they're saying!

[Romulox]

13. Just throw it into 'N' and do a sweet "Tokyo Drift" like Vin Diesel! What are you, 50 or something?

:rofl:

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15. This one is for you!

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1d6c70

I was parking my 1997 Chevy Lumina yesterday, when it suddenly lurched forward. It sounded like the engine revved up and it shot forward. Everyone thinks I must have pressed the accelerator instead of the brake, but I'm convinced that's not the case. My local mechanic could not find anything. Do you have any ideas we could pursue?






Emphasis mine, of course.

[Romulox]

16. I bet you hurried your behind to the dealer and got the recall work done nonetheless!

You aren't as young as you used to be yourself, you know! :rofl:

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17. That is terrible

:cry:


Stupid MF'n birthday!






:D

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34. DON'T DO THAT!!! Throwing it into "N" makes cars flip! Everyone of all ages knows that!!!

:hi:

[spoony]

36. !

:spray:

I so love reading your posts!

[Omaha Steve]

18. Umm IF it is electronic,....

What makes them think the black box is working correctly and recording actual foot on the brake? Or that since only ONE PC in the USA has the download from the car (proprietary like voting machine) that is isn't spitting out whatever result they want.

[Speck Tater]

19. If that claim were true wouldn't there be a roughly equal number of cases across ALL makes of cars?

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20. No.

There might be SUI in Ferraris too!

[Romulox]

21. Are you going to attempt to offer a serious answer to the poster's questions?

:hi:

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22. I hear vague anecdotes about frightening SUI in Amish carts.

:scared:

[Romulox]

23. So...for all your bluster, you can't answer simple questions about your "passionate" advocacy.

What a surprise.

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24. Toyota sells more cars than anyone else

Cars. Not trucks, not SUVs, cars.



Therefore...we have things called weighted averages and statistics to help us out when we can't compare apples to artichokes.

[Romulox]

25. What a disaster of a thread! Maybe we can get the prawn guy to come back?

And pointing out the existence of statistical tools isn't the same thing as actually applying them to facts. Toyota has, by far, the highest incidence of Sudden Acceleration complaints relative to the number of cars they sell; you yourself posted the numbers last week, and brayed about how Lincoln was # 2.

Remember? Or you just going to try to pretend that bad memory away, too? :silly: :hi:

[PBS Poll-435]

26. Ah. Be nice.

I thought we were having fun?

[Romulox]

27. So it's pretend away that bad memory, then? nt

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28. Not what I said, but it has to be 5'Clock Somewhere...

:(

[csziggy]

30. Toyota seems to be the one with the bad memory - they have been hiding this since 2002

Toyota memo points to electronics not mats

WASHINGTON, March 23 (UPI) -- Toyota warned U.S. dealerships in 2002 that Camry owners complained of throttle surges and recommended adjusting the computer, documents indicted.

A lawyer with the non-profit Center for Auto Safety in Washington said the technical service bulletin discusses electronics issues -- not mechanical issues raised in the massive recall -- and how the condition was corrected, CNN reported Tuesday.

"If you look at this document, it says electronics," attorney Clarence Ditlow said. "It says the fix is reprogrammed in the computer. It doesn't say anything about floor mats."

More: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/03/23/Toyota-memo-points-to-electronics-not-mats/UPI-30591269345884/

It is crap like this why I do not trust Toyota - or massive corporations. They hid this for one reason - their bottom line. They did not care how many people got injured or killed by this problem with their vehicles, they just wanted to save themselves money.

I am sure their shareholders are proud.

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31. Worse

Some of the shareholders are suing!

[spanone]

29. .

:rofl:

[TexasObserver]

32. If only Toyota had your advice, they wouldn't have already admitted it.

Gosh, it would have been great if Toyota had you instead of their throng of experts the past 8 years. They could have explained it all away without recalling millions of vehicles. Toyota is so stupid for not getting you on board.

Being a cynic doesn't make your approach sound. It just makes you appear uninformed and desperate.

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33. I didn't write the article. Yet you, it seems, are attacking me personally.

And that hurts my feelings. :(

[TexasObserver]

35. How do I know you're not faking being hurt?

You posted the article and have posted approvingly on the thread many times, gleefully spreading your pro Toyota talking points.

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37. Because that is not how I roll

:(

[Occulus]

41. I *won't* mention the misspelled word, I *won't* mention the misspelled word, I *won't* mention....

*bites tongue until it bleeds*

[HopeHoops]

39. Well, you did it - three things people believe in that are bullshit.

:evilgrin:

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40. I posted it, but Forbes published it.

:D