DU is the BEST place to go on the Internets for HCR discussion

[many a good man]

Much has been talked about and written regarding the upcoming health care reform vote pending in Congress. How would you judge DU's discussion of the matter over the past year?

[Deep13]

1. Everyone here recognizes the fact that some kind of reform is needed.

No one here thinks that being poor or sick means people deserve to suffer.

[RKP5637]

2. +1000, n/t

[Greyhound]

9. If it weren't against the rules I could give you a list of posters that believe exactly that

and have posted such numerous times (in weaselese of course).

[Lyric]

3. Probably not.

This is one of those issues that we all have pretty solid opinions about by now. We aren't changing minds. The "discussion" is mostly just people posting articles that support their point of view, and the rest of us spouting off the same old rhetoric again and again. We aren't really saying anything new, and nobody's converting anyone else. The only thing that IS changing is that resentments and hostilities between the groups are escalating, and a lot of the battle lines are being drawn based on who supported who during the primary, rather than about the complexities of HCR itself. Frankly, at least on DU, this bill has become something of an enormous referendum on Obama himself rather than a piece of legislation to be considered solely on its own merits. Many of those who vehemently support the bill were also vehement supporters of Obama way back when. Many of the opponents of the bill also opposed his candidacy, and for many of the same reasons. In a way, we're basically just re-fighting the primary battle.

I feel for the people caught in the middle--those who were fervent Obama supporters before, but who see this bill as a bad thing for America, and vice-versa. They're treated like traitors by their former ideological comrades, and dismissed as "too little, too late" by those they agree with now.

As for me, I did not support Obama in the primary and I still don't believe he was the best choice for America, although I DID vote for him. I also oppose this bill, because I fear that an ineffective bill will set healthcare reform back further than no bill at all ever could. I fear that if the bill doesn't help a lot of people FAST, our short-attention-span nation will backlash against the Dems in a violent way, and we won't EVER be able to convince people that truly effective HCR is possible. I also worry about what will happen to my own family; I am still not convinced that the bill is able to overcome the welfare reforms that allow states to basically curtail federal benefits as they see fit. I'll have to wait and see how it actually works once it passes. Believe me, I'd love nothing more than to be wrong. I gain NOTHING by being "right", and stand to lose EVERYTHING. However, I can say with certainty that my opposition to this bill and my previous support for a candidate other than Obama are not intrinsically related. I do not oppose everything the President says or does just because it's HIM that's saying or doing it. Likewise, I think it's wrong to support everything the President wants to do just because you support and admire him in general.

The one thing I wish is that we could stop judging the quality of the message based on who the messenger supported during the primary, or appears to support NOW. Perceived "disloyalty" to Obama (or perceived loyalty to him) does not mean that EVERYTHING someone says is to be automatically rejected (or accepted). Judge a post on its own merits. Try to understand that a lot of people are really scared about what this bill might (or might not) do for their own families. It's really NOT a referendum on Obama, and we should neither support it nor oppose it based on whether or not we supported or opposed the President in general. There's plenty in this bill to debate about, and we don't need to call each other corporatists or leftbaggers, or start flinging around accusations of pandering or bashing, in order to accomplish that debate. God knows I've had my moments. I see something I feel is insulting to people like me, and I react emotionally (and usually with some amount of cruel sarcasm or vitriol). But I'm trying to get better. I don't like feeling like I'm constantly at war with the people who SHOULD be my allies. :(

[EFerrari]

4. To be fair, the administration itself is also arguing that this bill

is a referendum.

[Lyric]

5. Really?

That seems...unwise. If things go wrong, that'll come back and bite them in the rear end in a spectacular way...

[EFerrari]

6. Dennis was asked directly, on Amy's show, if the President used

that argument and Dennis said, yes, it had come up.

Also I think Mr. Walking Cheetoh Boner has publicly said if they can win on this, they can "break" something, I don't remember what. Obama, the majority, something.

It's going to be a bumpy weekend. :grouphug:

[many a good man]

7. The quality of YOUR message is very high!

Thank you for your long and reasoned and thoughtful response. There is so much in it that I agree with. The stuff I disagree with is hardly worth arguing given all that has come before.

I think this whole episode points out the inherent dangers for any politician who tries to tackle a really big issue. Maybe that's part of the reason why NO ONE has tried to confront the multitude of serious, complex issues facing this country. This reticence helps explains why our country has moved steadily backwards the past 40 years.

Those of us on the left seem doomed to never be satisfied. The glacial pace of positive change has left us with so very little to cheer about. It has been so pathetic - it is disappointing on a grand scale. To top it all off it is quite depressing to realize that all conversation here has had an imperceptible effect on the national discourse. Like you said it hasn't even had a positive effect on this forum.

We have our ideals. Some of us try (too hard) to be pragmatic about it. In the end we get baby steps. Time will tell if its forwards or backwards. It is glaringly obvous that much is wrong with our political system. I really worry about our children and grandchildren.

[Turborama]

8. Seems like a majority strongly think not. If that's the case, where is the BEST place to go

on the Internets for HCR discussion?