Father Wants To Have 12 Year Old Son Circumcised

[matcom]

Cross-posted

<snip>

A former Medford man who converted to Judaism wants his 12-year-old son to do the same. That requires circumcision -- something the mother adamantly opposes.

The divorced couple has been battling over the issue for three years, including whether the boy wants to undergo the procedure. So far, Oregon courts have squarely sided with the father, who has custody.

That doesn't surprise Kathy T. Graham, associate dean for academic affairs at Willamette University College of Law.

"The primary custodial parent is the one that makes the decisions about religion and education and about matters of child-rearing," Graham said.

Other family law experts agree, but say the courts should at least look into the situation to make sure the surgery is in the best interests of the child.

"You're talking about not just religious instruction or whether you're going to send the child to parochial school or public school," commented Lawrence D. Gorin, a Portland attorney. "This is a matter of permanent change of bodily structure. And it's irreversible."

The mother is running out of legal options.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregonian/stories/index.ssf?/base/news/1177644329102660.xml&coll=7

[stirlingsliver]

1. Mutilation

We and should not allow any parent to mutilate the reproductive organs of their children.

This is nothing more that child abuse.

[Touchdown]

2. You shouldn't use "snip" in a post like this.

:P

[Bluebear]

4. :)

[guitar man]

5. :)

"snip"
:rofl:

[formerrepuke]

3. "Son, because I'm changing my religion a piece of your privates needs to be sliced off"

....If my father said that to me at the age of twelve, I would have run away from home.. OTOH, this particular decision was made for me when I was too young to have any say in the matter.

[THUNDER HANDS]

6. I'm by no means an anti-circumcision person

but this is just ridiculous. A 12-year-old boy should not be circumsized at that age because of his father's sudden religious conversion.

I was circumsized in the hospital right after i was born, therefore, I feel no attachment (pardon the pun) to what was snipped off. This kid will, even if he hasn't hit puberty yet, which he probably has.

Plus, it should be his decision, not his father's. I'd like to see the Moile who has to perform this briss. I wonder how that would even go, would the kid lay down on a table with his whole family around him looking at him getting his snippy snipped?

God, the humiliation factor in this is astounding.

[Mind_your_head]

7. Yikes! The boy is 12 years old already, not a newborn baby

I believe that the "best interests of the child" would be to wait and then let him make the decision for himself when he is 18 or 21 or whenever (or never).

Just because the father made the decision to convert at his late-age, doesn't mean that the boy - who is at a very confusing age anyway - needs to make such an important decision NOW. What is the rush to do this to the boy NOW? The father lived many years before he saw what 'was right' for HIM. I think a loving and prudent parent would want their child to have the same benefit of maturity and the insight that comes with experience to make the decision WHEN THEY ARE OLD ENOUGH to understand and weigh the benefits and drawbacks.

Also, there's obviously some "mom thinks" vs. "dad thinks" going on and this poor boy and his penis are 'stuck in the middle'.....poor kid.

[depakid]

11. Unfortunately, it appears the law is clear

The child doesn't have consent rights over medical treatments until he turns 15, at which point, apparently, a guardian ad litem would be appointed.

I too would like to see the courts find some way of intervening on the child's behalf, but as it stands, it doesn't look like they have legal grounds to do so.

[scorpiogirl]

21. It's not a medical procedure, at least not one that's at all

necessary. It's a religious procedure. Talk about trauma!

[depakid]

26. That's pointentially a point that the Oregon Supreme Court could raise

They might the make some clarifications and remand the case back to the trial court. If they do, it's entirely possible that kid will be 15 before the proceedings are concluded. Seems to me, that would be a good result.

[LostinVA]

27. Correct, it is purely religious, especially in this context

[Mind_your_head]

23. If the boy doesn't want it (or is not SURE whether he wants it)....

since it's not a life-threatening/life-savings procedure how can the court force the boy to have this done? What are they gonna do, strap him down and force the procedure on the boy - kicking & screaming?

How can the FATHER do this to his son - put the son through so much emotional turmoil, just b/c the FATHER changed religions? Isn't that sort of abusive? I think THAT fact alone should cause concern that perhaps the father does not have the best interests of the child at heart and perhaps the father should not have custody either.

Btw, I understand what you're saying about the law.....but I, as you do, hope that the courts (or someone can figure out a way to spare this kid the trauma of this).

Methinks that, whether the boy has the procedure or not, he's really gonna resent/(hate?) his dad for all this in the future. The dad is a selfish moron for taking it this far (to the court).

on edit making it: dad is a selfish moron

[pokerfan]

31. How could Abraham be willing to sacrifice Isaac?

I know that g-d was just fuckign with Abraham and wanted to see if Abe would actually do it, but still...

How can the FATHER do this to his son - put the son through so much emotional turmoil, just b/c the FATHER changed religions?

It's all about submission. Submission and control.

[uppityperson]

24. Needs a GAL now if doesn't already have one.

GALs are appointed to kids of all ages.

[MissB]

8. I'm surprised the courts aren't doing the whole "best interest of the child" thing.

He is 12... damn near a teenager. I suppose he should have a say in this.

[Colobo]

9. What's wrong with this father?

He needs to respect his son's body.

[nolabels]

10. Courts just look after the best interest of........

If I was that kid I would have been a long gone runaway, a long time ago.

The Courts and establishment want to charge kids as adults in crimes but at the same time they want to give them up to mutilation by their parents :shrug:

[rug]

12. This case will bring circumcision to the fore.

[johnaries]

14. OH, that's BAD!

I'm not sure anyone else caught it, though....
:rofl:

[Warren DeMontague]

20. That's just the tip of it. nt

[SteppingRazor]

25. Indeed. This will certainly bring matters to a head. n/t

[rockymountaindem]

13. I doubt he'd be able to find anybody willing to perform such a circumcision

Mohels are only trained to do the proceedure on infants and a doctor would probably shy away from this both for ethical reasons and fear of future lawsuits.

[Missy Vixen]

15. I've had a lot of interesting life experiences ;-)

I once dated a guy who was circumsized at 30 due to -- well, he didn't really go into detail. He didn't have a lot of positive things to say about the experience.

There are doctors who will perform the surgery, BTW.

Julie

[rockymountaindem]

17. Probably not on a 12-year-old who doesn't want it

and who has a mom with a bunch of lawyers already lined up.

[Missy Vixen]

19. I feel so badly for that young man

Evidently, his mom is running out of legal arguments, according to the article.

The father sounds like a selfish asshat that perhaps should have the same procedure performed on him.

Julie

[Warren DeMontague]

16. Can the 12 year old kid speak or write?

Ask him. That's whose decision it should be.

[Warren DeMontague]

18. This dad should speak to my wife. She's been a Jew her whole life

and there was NO WAY she was going to let our son get circumcised. And I'm circumcised, and I'm an atheist/taoist.

I think religious belief has to do with what is in your head, not what is in your pants.

[scorpiogirl]

22. How can a parent force a child to have elective surgery? n/t

[depakid]

28. Tonsillectomy

Is often an elective surgery- as are various other procedures that parents choose, though none that I'm aware of for religious reasons.

[Orangepeel]

29. the kid *might* want it

In court papers, the father claims the boy gradually concluded that he also wanted to convert to Judaism and understood that this required circumcision. ... The mother responded by going to court, saying her son told her that he was afraid to defy his father, but didn't want the procedure.

It seems unclear what the boy wants. It is conceivable to me that, even if he is scared, he wants to be like his father (I don't know but I'm guessing he was probably circumsized as a baby) and his friends who will have their bar mitvahs next year.

If he doesn't want it, the court should protect him. But, if he does, the mother should butt out.

[Touchdown]

37. REALLY? I read the boy doesn't want it.

An Oregon father, (an attorney), is planning on converting to Judaism and wants his now 12 year-old son, "Misha" of whom he has custody, circumcised against the child's express will. Sadly, a physician / congregant has already been found who is willing to ignore Misha's wishes and oblige the father. The rabbi insists on it. Misha is deeply afraid of his father.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/26/103213/567

Your story says...In court papers, the father claims... My story says... "Misha is deeply afraid of his father" So does the boy really want to convert, or is his father bullying him into it? And there are plenty of jews who are against ritual circumcision. I'm not jewish, but I doubt it's a universal requirement.

[spanone]

30. O U C H

:scared:

[Evoman]

32. The dad needs the living shit beat out of him.

Stupid piece of shit.

Religions sucks ass. It makes people do stupid things.

:hide:

[Madspirit]

33. Why

Why, at that age, isn't this up to the boy?

Lee

[Touchdown]

34. Article from DKos about it.

There's also a way to donate for "Misha's" case for those who sympathize with him.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/26/103213/567

The father is apparently doing this against the wishes of the boy.

There is also a precedent case in Chicago...


In a written opinion handed down Tuesday, Circuit Court Judge Jordan Kaplan said, "The evidence was conflicting and inconclusive as to any past infections or irritations that may have been suffered by the child.

"Moreover," he continued, "this court also finds that the medical evidence as provided by the testimony of the expert witnesses ... is inconclusive as to the medical benefits or non-benefits of circumcision as it relates to the 9-year-old child."

Kaplan said the boy, as a minor, cannot make his own medical decisions but had indicated in a written statement that he does not want to be circumcised.

"The injury to the child as a result of an unnecessary circumcision would be irreversible," Kaplan wrote, adding that his order would remain in effect until the boy turns 18 and can decide for himself whether or not he wants to undergo the procedure.

[Sanctified]

35. I think it should be up to the boy.

If he wants to get cut then absolutely he should, if not then he should not have too, fuck the parents.

[WillyT]

36. In A Related Story... 12 Year Old Son Beats The Crap Out Of His Dad !!!

:evilgrin:

[RevolutionToday]

38. I want my foreskin back

I'm sick of my European nudist friends asking me what happened. :)

[Touchdown]

39. You can donate to the mother's costs here

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/26/103213/567

Her attorney is working pro bono, but he's spent $20,000 so far as of January.