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Hopefully nobody has forgotten that it’s National Grammar Day

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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:02 PM
Original message
Hopefully nobody has forgotten that it’s National Grammar Day
Just about every person has their own pet grammar peeve. Some like to gleefully scold others for grammar mistakes, as though an occasional bit of informal English were simply too much for civilized society to put up with. Some see changes in the language as evidence that the very fabric of society is raveling, but irregardless, the language continues to evolve.

As it turns out, many common grammar mistakes aren’t actually mistakes at all, but rather perfectly natural and understandable adaptations of the language. And often, in spite of protests by amateur and professional grammarians, they have decades or even centuries of history supporting them. So, in celebration of National Grammar Day, I wanted to offer a brief list of common grammar mistakes that aren’t really mistakes.

Number One: “Hopefully” is perfectly acceptable as a sentence adverb.
Admittedly, my subject line is likely to raise the hackles of those who insist that hopefully should only mean “in a hopeful manner.” Frankly, though, “hopefully” has been used for more than 70 years and there is no reasonable objection against it. Fortunately, it is a useful word—much easier than alternatives such as “it is to be hoped that.” Thankfully, it is very likely to be misunderstood in most cases.

Honestly, the fact of the matter is that we use all kinds of sentence adverbs in English (such as “admittedly,” “frankly,” “fortunately,” “thankfully,” and “honestly”). But while a sentence like "Thankfully it isn't raining" wouldn't raise any objections, "hopefully it isn't raining" does.

Number Two: It’s fine to use “their” and “they” as gender-neutral singular pronouns.
It’s nothing new – in fact, this usage dates back to the 14th century. It’s certainly easier to use and more elegant than “his or her” or “his/her” or “s/he,” and if used with care there is very little chance of misunderstanding.

Considering that most of our greatest writers (from Chaucer and Shakespeare on down the line) have used singular they/their, and since people have been using it this way longer than Modern English has even been around, it’s interesting that objections to this usage have only been around (as far as I can tell) for the last few decades—as its use has become associated specifically with a desire for a gender-neutral pronoun.

Number Three: Feel free to boldly split infinitives.
Sometimes, it’s true, splitting your idea is a bad idea for stylistic reasons, and of course it’s possible that a split infinitive can create confusion. However, there is no real “rule” against it, nor is there any logical reason that infinitives ought not be split. And, further, sometimes splitting the infinitive can reduce confusion.

Split infinitives were common in Middle English, but died off in Early Modern English. They were rarely used by the likes of Shakespeare, Dryden, et al, but there was no prohibition against them, even then. They were just considered inelegant. Until the late 19th century, when usage of the split infinitive became more common, and then the grammatical-powers-that-be began to rally against them.

Number Four: Don’t trust Robert Lowth when it comes to preposition placement.
Robert Lowth wrote the first important book about English grammar, and many of the rules he claimed back in 1762 are still referred to today. Unfortunately, one such rule is that absurdity about how a preposition is something you shouldn’t end your sentence with. Aside from finding the construction inelegant, his reasoning was based on his understanding of a Latin rule that he believed prohibited such constructions. In fact, there is no such prohibition in Latin—and even if there were, there would be no reason to apply such a rule to English, since English is not a Latin language.

What’s more, while there are some constructions in which avoiding a sentence-ending preposition might be stylistically pleasing, there are all kinds of situations in which avoiding that construction requires absurd acts of linguistic contortion. So feel free to use prepositions wherever you want, provided your meaning is clear.

Number Five: “Irregardless” is a word.
Don’t get me wrong—I wouldn’t use irregardless in formal writing, but I still find the hysteria about this word entertaining. The basic objection is that “irregardless” is illogical because it means the same thing as “regardless,” even though the prefix “ir-“ is supposed to be a negation. But irregardless isn’t unique in this regard: inflammable means the same thing as flammable, for instance, and boning a fish is no different from deboning a fish. In both cases, a negative prefix is attached without changing the meaning of the word. An even weirder example is “unravel.” In spite of the negative “un-,” unravel means the same thing as ravel. But what’s weirder is that if you look up “ravel” in most dictionaries, they actually include “unravel” in their first definition. An alternate definition is “to tangle or complicate,” so the word ravel contains both a specific action and its opposite.

What’s more, it’s not the case that “ir-“ is always and only a negation. Like most of our negative prefixes, “ir-“ is also an intensifier, and that is consistent with how people tend to use “irregardless”—to emphasize just how regardless it is.

Number Six: It’s okay to use “less” with countable nouns.
I know that the “10 items or less” signs in the speed lane at the supermarket piss some people off, because (the theory goes) one is supposed to use “fewer” for countable nouns and “less than” for uncountables.

But this is not actually a hard and fast rule. Oddly enough, while “less” sounds odd with countable nouns (“less bananas,” “less books”), it sounds perfectly natural when those countable nouns are actually counted (“less than five bananas,” “less than twenty books”). This is most evident when talking about money or time, as even the most rigid of presiptivists wouldn’t likely object to a sentence like “I have less than twenty bucks in cash right now” or “I have less than 30 minutes to get this paper done.”

So a phrase like “12 items or less (than 12 items)” actually makes sense.

Anyway, there are more such alleged-mistakes that I could include on this list, but in the interest of brevity I wanted to keep the list to six items or less. :)
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virgogal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ain't that the truth !
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. NOOOOO!!!
All of those are my favorite grammar pet peeves. I do not accept them. There must be standards, irregardless!
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Richard D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. I dodn't recollect dat one.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. **screaming** I HATE "irregardless"!! Why are you giving people the OK
to use this horrible, horrible word??!

On the other hand, what about people who say "pacific" instead of "specific?" Or "li-berry" instead of "library?" Any recommendations on how they should be handled?? :)
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Eventually everything will be dumbed down enough
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 07:08 PM by Codeine
for the Illiteracy Brigade to deem those acceptable as well.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
106. I have news for you. This is how languages change.
It just is. There is no plot to rob you of your literacy, it just happens. All language is dialect, and ours is changing. We will, for example, soon not have the 3rd person singular, present tense, with the verb "to go." It will be "he,she,it go." That is how language, as it is spoken by the populace, treats it.

I don't like it either, but I bow to a invevitable fate for spoken English...and I am an ESL literacy volunteer...
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. oh, they should be pitied
"On the other hand, what about people who say "pacific" instead of "specific?" Or "li-berry" instead of "library?" Any recommendations on how they should be handled??"

Bless their hearts :)

"pacific" grates on my nerves as well -- along with "supposably."
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Oh no! Not "bless their hearts!"
The ULTIMATE Southern insult. :rofl: If a Southerner says "bless your heart," you better believe you are pitied (and judged lacking) to the extreme.

I forgot to add "axe" to the list. As in, "I axed him what he wanted for dinner."
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. yep -- that phrase always cracks me up
:hi:
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Greenpeach Donating Member (375 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. How about excetera and exspecially?
...and, mischeeveeous and greeveeous,verbage and folage...nukular?
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Folage??
That just LOOKS bad. :rofl: :rofl:
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. I spent years cringing
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 07:30 PM by pipi_k
when my mom would say "foilage" (for foliage) ..."poims" (for poems)...."jagwire" (for jaguar) and a few other goodies.

Now she's older and still does it, but I can ignore it better




PS...she was, and still is, the original Edith Bunker.

:+

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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. Well, Merriam Webster now lists NUKE-Yu-Lar as acceptable
alternate pronunciation to NUKE-LEE-AR.... Guess which dictionary I no longer use. :mad:
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
5. 1-2 Yes, 3-4 Fine, 5-6 Not until you pry the red pen from my cold, dead hand.
:D
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. 5 I can understand -- but can you elaborate on 6
Do you object to "less than" when used with money/time? Do you object only when used with other countables? Or do you only object to "less" and not "less than"?
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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. Bucks are not books. "Less than" does not work with countables that are
individual items, such as bananas, but works with quantities of measurement, like money or time.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. well, I agree that bucks are not books, but not that you can't use less than w/ individual items
The distinction about measurement is a good distinction in that it provides a consistent justification. Still, less than has been used for quantities for ages, and I don't think general objections were common before the middle of the last century.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:28 PM
Original message
Because most people don't use the linguistic dodge cited as an example.
They simply use the more/less scale for all uncountable nouns.

Many of the other "errors" listed are really a contemporary reaction to the ornate and unwieldy Latinisms of the 18-19th century wordsmiths who tried to stick the square peg of English into the round hole of Latin grammar. I can live with a backlash against those artificial constructions, because they've already lost the war of words in terms of daily usage. But most of the times I see a "less/fewer" confusion, it's simply done out of ignorance.

Tuppence for you. ;)
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
96. Sums up my feeling as well. Hopefully, a consensus can be found.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yay! Three cheers for illiteracy! nt
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. these are illogical and fake rules, and have nothing to do with illiteracy
:shrug:
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planetc Donating Member (247 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. Churchill, asked about ending sentences with prepositions:
"That is the kind of nonsense up with which I will not put."
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
97. Harvard version - when asked about ending sentences with prepositions:
Edited on Fri Mar-05-10 06:41 PM by JackRiddler
"Where is the bathroom at?"

Harvard student: "I'm sorry, at Harvard we do not end sentences with prepositions."

"Oh, I'm sorry. Can you tell me where the bathroom's at, asshole?
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Demoiselle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. Rule number seven:
If you screw up grammar rules, feel bad about it. Don't feel "badly." You can only feel badly if you are blindfolded and you identify sandpaper as mohair, by touch.
Thank you for giving me one more opportunity to spew about my grammatical pet peeve.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. Good one..
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LeftHander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
71. that trippin' me talk more better now , right?...nt
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
98. Feeling badly...
Well, you can also feel badly, say, if someone dies and you burst with joy at the news.
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Demoiselle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #98
112. EGGzackly!
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. I wonder if we have a National Spell Check day?
Not that it really matters to me since I never use spell check.

I find that I only become irritated (I wonder if ritated is also a word?) when I am forced to slow down my reading or to re-read sentences because the meaning is ambiguous due to poor grammar. Otherwise I don't care.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #11
69. "Spell Check is for cowards!"
Oft-heard declaration from Iggo at his office when he's sending an email from someone else's computer. When Iggo hits Send, he means Send.
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planetc Donating Member (247 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
15. It would be helpful to get over our fear of English teachers. nt
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
16. who came up with this oh-so-convenient little list? is it yours? if so, on what do you base your
assertions? if not yours, where is the citation? where is the link?



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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. it's mine
It's not from any one source, just a list I've compiled over the years as I've seen people incorrectly criticize the grammar of others. :)
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John1956PA Donating Member (282 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. Congratulations on your well-written essay.
I like another poster's comment which states that "feel bad" is okay to use. That reminds me of the debate which was sparked when the local high school's message sign exhorted "School's out. Drive safe." Some residents thought that the message was grammatically incorrect and should have been worded "Drive safely.
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
38. Oh, well, in that case
I hearby declare that "there," "their," and "they're" are exactly the same thing. Interchange "loose" and "lose" at your whim. We'll all know what you mean. How about ceasing to criticize people when they say "would of" and "could of"? We've been really anal about that one. Henceforth, "it's" can be interchanged with "its."
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. those aren't very good analogies
:shrug:

I'm not arbitrarily declaring that such things are acceptable. I'm arguing that the injunctions against them were arbitrary and serve no real purpose.
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #42
66. The rules are not arbitrary
Irregardless is a double negative. Period. It means the exact opposite of what people think they're saying.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #66
70. Ah but double negatives are not operative in all grammars of modern english
Several American English dialects don't observe double negatives. Repetition of the negative marker indicates the superlative.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #66
76. Sure they are
I didn't say the injunction against double negatives is arbitrary. True, the English language's approach to double negatives isn't universal, and some other langauges treat double negatives much differently. Still, the logic of our language clearly sees multiple negatives as multiplicative, so that they cancel each other out. But "ir-" isn't always a negative.

You've claimed the rules aren't arbitarary, and supported that by responding to but one of my examples (the one, incidentally, that is not about a specific rule but rather a specific word). This second response of yours is a bit more on point than your earlier non sequitur about lose/loose, etc., but it's still not exactly convincing.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #66
87. Actually the rules ARE arbitrary.
Prescriptive grammar (and human language in general) are arbitrary by nature. In fact, "arbitrariness" is recognized as one of the design features that all human languages MUST possess in order to be considered true languages. For example, look at the word "tree." Does it look like a tree? No? Then it's arbitrary. It's a group of symbols that writers of English have collectively decided to designate as meaning "tree." The word for "tree" is different in other languages, of course, and rightly so--because other languages are arbitrary as well.

Prescriptively-correct grammar might serve a function for formal writing, but rhetorically-correct grammar (the grammar of use, as opposed to rules) is also perfectly fine so long as the meaning is understood by both the transmitter and the receiver. Lack of prescriptively-correct grammar might be an indication of socioeconomic class, but it is certainly NOT an indication of intelligence or effectiveness at communication.

In other words--if I tell you to have a happy birfday, you understand what I mean, even if my incorrect grammar and pronunciation make you uncomfortable.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #38
49. Those are spelling mistakes, not grammatical ones.
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #49
67. Since when is "of" a misspelling of "have"? n/t
n/t
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #67
80. "Of" and "-'ve" sound identical.
That's why the mistake occurs.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
48. Read up on the lingusitics of the actual English language.
Not the artificial rules make by people who thought English should work like Latin and be 100% logical.
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RedCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
20. My own personal opinion is that I have seventy different friends.
I just like to say different to impress folks that I can actually count. I couldn't actually explain the difference between them.
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salguine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
21. I ain't remember that stuff too good.
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salguine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
24. I believe I shall call bullshit on Nos. 5 and 6, at least.
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heli Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
25. Had no idea it’s National Gramma Day
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Would be wicked awesome if all my Grammas wasn't dead
:7
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. Can't you read good?
It's National Grammer Day. :hi:
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
28. Irregardless is not a word as long as jobycom insists that it is.
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 07:34 PM by Orrex
Incidentally, it's a mistake IMO to justify "irregardless" in terms of "inflammable" or "unravel" or "debone" because "irregardless" is clearly a malapropism based on "irrespective," whereas those other three examples don't have similar seed-words.


I don't actually get too upset about "irregardless" outside of DU, but I opt not to use it in speech or writing.
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
29. #5: BULLSHIT!
"Irregardless" is nOT a fucking word. I don't care how many people use it, it's not correct. Period. End of report.
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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Yeah, I was going to say something about that "inflammable" comparison.
Something can be "inflamed," but prob'ly not "irregarded."
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John1956PA Donating Member (282 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. I have read that "inflammable" and "flammable" refer to two different concepts.
It is said that "inflammable" means that the object is capable of becoming inflamed, and that "flammable" means that the object is capable of bursting into flames.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. it's true that they can have slightly different inflections
But if you look up "flammable" in the dictionary, you'll likely find "inflammable" in the first definition, and if you look up "inflammable" you'll likely find "flammable" in the first definition.

Inflammable is a bit more flexible because it's actually an older word.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #29
50. if people use it then it's a word.
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. By that logic "a'ight" is a word.
I don't fucking think so.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #58
90. Yes, "a'ight" is definitely a word.
It's a dialectic word that depends largely on region and socioeconomic class status, but so long as both the speaker and listener can understand what is MEANT by "a'ight," then yes, it's a word. In fact, it's a word with two root morphemes ("all" and "right"), but that acts as one morpheme most of the time, because we understand "a'ight" to mean agreement, as opposed to "all right" which by themselves mean that everything is as it should be. The more socially-acceptable "alright" works the same way.

"Alright" becomes "A'ight" by a process known as phonetic deletion. Say "West Side" out loud to yourself as you naturally would--notice how you tend to drop the hard "t" sound in the middle? That's called deletion. It's no different, save that SOME deletions are associated with low socioeconomic status, and therefore we are trained from early on to react badly to them.

The official linguistic definition of a word: smallest unit of language that can stand alone and has meaning. "A'ight" may not be a prescriptively-correct grammatical term, but it IS a word.

:hi:
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. No, it is incorrect usage of a real word.
Big difference. And all the linguistic obfuscation you're trying to throw at me doesn't change it one iota.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. It's not linguistic obfuscation, it's linguistic fact.
I'd be happy to refer you to a nationally-recognized expert on the subject. He's my linguistics professor, and I assure you, he'll back up every word I say. He has a PhD in Linguistics and has done decades of research on dialectic grammar and regional variations. Shall I PM you his e-mail address?
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. I am unconvinced.
"Regional variation" is not standard, and therfore not correct. Unless you now want to claim it's a different language altgether, we have nothing more to discuss.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #95
99. Your problem is that you're confusing prescriptive correctness with
Edited on Fri Mar-05-10 06:57 PM by Lyric
language as a whole, and the two are not the same thing. A word doesn't have to be grammatically correct in order to be a word--"word" is about meaning, not grammatical correctness. Otherwise, words would NEVER be able to change--and we know that they DO change. Look at the words in the King James Bible--thee, thou, knoweth, nameth, goeth. Those words CHANGED. By their standards, YOUR grammar is atrocious and wrong. So should we all assume that you're not speaking "real, correct" English just because your English doesn't sound exactly like someone else's idea of "proper" English? Look at more modern differences between American, British, Canadian, and Australian English. There are plenty of differences, and even MORE differences between regional variations (South Australia vs. North Australia, for example.) So which one is "correct?" It's all the same language, after all.

You need to accept that language is not a solid, immobile construction. Language veers, twists, and changes. In order for those changes to be considered acceptable and correct, then there can't be any such thing as permanent or inherent "True English". There is only a language that has temporary rules for formal speaking and writing--and that's all. Beyond that, anything that effectively communicates a meaning is indeed a real word.

But as I said, don't take my word for it. I'll be happy to refer you to someone who's won about ten academic awards, has his doctorate on the subject, has published numerous articles and books, and has made regional variations in linguistics his life's work. The very FIRST thing he taught our class is that prescriptively-correct grammar is NOT the only "correct" version of a language. This is a copy-pasted version of one of the handouts he gave us on the very first day of class. He knew that some students will fight tooth and nail defending "grammatical correctness" as the ONLY true English, and he pre-empted that argument before it could even flare up.

Correct English is Dead; Long Live Correct English

1. Common Myths about Prescriptively Correct English (PCE):

a. Some forms of the language always work better (linguistically) than other forms
of the language. For example, "She is not home today" always works better than
"She ain't home today."

b. The form that is PCE was chosen because it works better at all times.

c. The PCE of today should be protected from corrupting influence that would
cause decay in its form.

d. The PCE of today has already been corrupted by modern slovenly thinking and
should be reformed to the standards of yesteryear.

2. Facts about Rhetorically Correct English (RCE):

a. Some forms of the language always work better in certain contexts than other
forms. For example, "She ain't home today" WILL work better than "She is not home
today" in some contexts.

b. No institutionalized authority exists to govern language production. The
appropriate language production is governed by the agent's intention, the
audience, and the message.

c. The RCE of any particular context will necessarily change because change is part
of what human language is.

d. The RCE of any particular context will most likely be different from the RCE of
yesteryear but in no way can it be superior.

------

Points To Remember: Additional Myths Of Language

1) Language is an object.
2) There is a clear difference between a language and a dialect.
3) Some languages (dialects) are better than others.
4) Parents teach their children language.
5) People who teach literature or writing are (by virtue of their profession) experts
on language.

Other Points:

Language:
• Variation is a natural part of human language. Only RCE allows for variation in
language.
• RCE allows us to confront the social source of dialect discrimination. (e.g. Why is
“birfday” stigmatized in the North but not stigmatized in the South?)

Writing:
• Writing well to a particular audience is an important and difficult skill to master.
It takes years of work, because unlike language (spoken or signed), writing is not
a natural activity. No baby is born knowing how to write, but all naturally
developing children learn at least one language.
• Writing is an artificial act, and language is a natural act. It is the difference
between driving and human vision. Driving is an artificial, culturally-invented
process learned through formal instruction; driving relies on vision, which in and
of itself is a naturally developed process in humans.
• Only RCE allows for a model (theory) of these distinctions between writing and
language.


Edit: lost part of the copy-paste from the .pdf file and fixed it
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. Oh, felgercarb!
They used it on the original Battlestar Galactica. Hence, a word.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. Does it have a meaning that an average person can discern?
Edited on Fri Mar-05-10 07:48 PM by Lyric
Even if we disagree with it, we comprehend what "a'ight" means. Hence, it's a word. The term you posted does not have a commonly-understood meaning. However, if you decide on a meaning, use the term often, and it catches on enough to become part of our common lexicon, then yes, it would be a word. You know, like "Google."
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. In context, it did indeed.
If, say, someone's laser gun jammed, they'd say "Felgercarb!"
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #103
104. True enough. Well then, for fans of that particular show,
"felgercarb" is indeed a word. :)
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #104
116. But it's not a word for everyone else?
Oh, felgercarb! :P

What about, to go in a different direction, "kaikuahine"? Just because we're likely the only two Lounge lizards who know it doesn't make it a non-word. Or does it? :shrug:
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
35. Sorry
5 and 6 are wrong, wrong, wrong.
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KT2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
37. Your sposta
enforce grammar that is hopefully proper irregardless. I have to go lay down now - this is to much.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
39. Oh please, it's my fucking birthday...
don't I get a free grammar pass???

:party:
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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. You betcha!
:party:
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Happy fucking birthday!
Hope you get....you know.

:evilgrin:

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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. Haha, thanks!
GTMA!
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
44. I need a personal editor n/t
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
46. 7. "Ain't" IS a word. It's an old contraction of "am not".
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 08:23 PM by Odin2005
8. Most European languages are just fine with double negatives, where the doubling intensifies the negation. Thus the "double negatives are illogical" argument is complete crap.

9. "Whom" is dead as a doornail, quit whining about it.


I find the "you can't end sentences with a preposition" nonsense hilarious because it actually violates the grammatical rules of the actual English language regarding phrasal verbs, where a preposition is often functionally a detached part of the verb.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
47. I never don't forget.
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
51. I can understand the changing of language and grammar, BUT
"irregardless" is just a big HELL NO for me. No No No!!!!!


I know a woman (ahem, my step-mother-in-law) who says etiqwette for etiquette and phantom for fathom. It takes everything I have not to correct her. I cringe. She did drop out of school when she was in the 8th grade, but aren't these things taught earlier than that? ICK!!!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. It depends on the sentence, the beats, the sound and the emphasis.
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 09:50 PM by EFerrari
Using "irregardless" would be a way to intensify your disregard of whatever it is you don't want to regard. lol
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
53. Hopefully COMMA no ONE has forgotten it’s National Grammar Day.
You left out a comma.

You failed to use a period.

You used "that," when it was superfluous.

You used "nobody," when "no one" is a better word choice.

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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. stet
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 10:34 PM by fishwax
You left out a comma.

Indeed I did. But I'm okay with that.

MLA and APA style would both call for a comma here. (IIRC Chicago is a bit more ambiguous--they suggest not using commas for one-word or short phrases at the beginning of the sentence.) In a formal context I would certainly use the comma, as I did with the sentence adverbs in the body of the post (except for two example sentences that were meant to evoke speech).

But I don't really feel compelled to follow MLA or APA style when writing a subject line on DU, and I didn't use a comma because it isn't strictly necessary for clarification in this case and I didn't want to suggest a pause.


You failed to use a period.

I didn't use a period because I don't think terminal punctuation is strictly necessary in a subject line on a message board. Of course, there may be occasions when one wants to use it for a specific purpose, but otherwise it's really no big deal.


You used "that," when it was superfluous.

True, but so what? I'm not picking my wording for maximum efficiency, I'm not charging or paying by the word, and I like the cadence of the line better with the "that."


You used "nobody," when "no one" is a better word choice.

I don't agree that "no one" is a better word choice here. In formal writing I'd likely agree. But I'm fine with the more conversational tone of nobody here.

But although I'm going to stick with the original subject line, please allow me to say that I do always enjoy seeing the editorial mind go to work :toast: :)
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Then, until next time, I remain ...
... faithfully yours,

TO

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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #53
86. Like you, I noticed that oversight. n/t
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
54. To boldy grammatically go where no man has gone before
"This is the sort of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put"

Points for the author of the quote.

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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #54
64. Probably Churchill.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #64
105. You win
Here's your prize:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
56. I enjoyed that! You should write a grammar book.
:hi:
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Libertas1776 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
57. Duh! Corse eye new it wuz grhammer day
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 10:16 PM by Libertas1776
Kidding aside, please tell me we're still teaching children grammar in this country.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #57
68. Yes, every day.
Our society doesn't place much value on grammar; my students, who come from an anti-intellectual culture, don't.

I teach it every day anyway.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
61. Also spelling, too
:P
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
62. Also spelling, too
:P
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
63. Ain't that sweet?
Who cares? :eyes:
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Rincewind Donating Member (682 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
65. It are?
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
72. My contribution



Thankfully, "yore" has largely passed from common usage!
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CanonRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
73. Grammar was never my strong suit.
I was the king of the comma splice on term papers.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
74. "Eats, Shoots and Leaves"
Edited on Fri Mar-05-10 11:33 AM by Jim__
The point of Lynne Truss's book is that grammar is not completely superficial. It also clarifies meaning.

David Foster Wallace also wrote a long essay (very long, about 50 pages), Present Tense, on the debate between prescriptivists and descriptivists:



Norm-wise, let's keep in mind that language didn't come into being because our hairy ancestors were sitting around the veldt with nothing better to do. Language was invented to serve certain specific purposes:<24> "That mushroom is poisonous"; "Knock these two rocks together and you can start a fire"; "This shelter is mine!" And so on. Clearly, as linguistic communities evolve over time, they discover that some ways of using language are "better" than others — meaning better with respect to the community's purposes. If we assume that one such purpose might be communicating which kinds of food are safe to eat, then you can see how, for example, a misplaced modifier might violate an important norm:

...

The argument goes like this. An English sentence's being meaningful is not the same as its being grammatical. That is, such clearly ill-formed constructions as "Did you seen the car keys of me?" or "The show was looked by many people" are nevertheless comprehensible; the sentences do, more or less, communicate the information they're trying to get across. Add to this the fact that nobody who isn't damaged in some profound Oliver Sacksish way actually ever makes these sorts of very deep syntactic errors<25> and you get the basic proposition of Noam Chomsky's generative linguistics, which is that there exists a Universal Grammar beneath and common to all languages, plus that there is probably an actual part of the human brain that's imprinted with this Universal Grammar the same way birds' brains are imprinted with Fly South and dogs' with Sniff Genitals. There's all kinds of compelling evidence and support for these ideas, not least of which are the advances that linguists and cognitive scientists and A.I. researchers have been able to make with them, and the theories have a lot of credibility, and they are adduced by the Philosophical Descriptivists to show that since the really important rules of language are at birth already hardwired into people's neocortex; SWE prescriptions against dangling participles or mixed metaphors are basically the linguistic equivalent of whalebone corsets and short forks for salad. As Descriptivist Steven Pinker puts it, "When a scientist considers all the high-tech mental machinery needed to order words into everyday sentences, prescriptive rules are, at best, inconsequential decorations."

This argument is not the barrel of drugged trout that Methodological Descriptivism was, but it's still vulnerable to some objections. The first one is easy. Even if it's true that we're all wired with a Universal Grammar, it simply doesn't follow that all prescriptive rules are superfluous. Some of these rules really do seem to serve clarity, and precision. The injunction against twoway adverbs ("People who eat this often get sick") is an obvious example, as are rules about other kinds of misplaced modifiers ("There are many reasons why lawyers lie, some better than others") and about relative pronouns' proximity to the nouns they modify ("She's the mother of an infant daughter who works twelve hours a day").

Granted the Philosophical Descriptivist can question just how absolutely necessary these rules are, it's quite likely that a recipient of clauses like the above could figure out what the sentences mean from the sentences on either side or from the "overall context" or whatever. A listener can usually figure out what I really mean when I misuse infer for imply or say indicate for say, too. But many of these solecisms require at least a couple extra nanoseconds of cognitive effort, a kind of rapid sift-and-discard process, before the recipient gets it. Extra work. It's debatable just how much extra work, but it seems indisputable that we put some extra neural burden on the recipient when we fail to follow certain conventions. W/r/t confusing clauses like the above, it simply seems more "considerate" to follow the rules of correct SWE ... just as it's more "considerate" to de-slob your home before entertaining guests or to brush your teeth before picking up a date. Not just more considerate but more respectful somehow — both of your listener and of what you're trying to get across. As we sometimes also say about elements of fashion and etiquette, the way you use English "Makes a Statement" or "Sends a Message" — even though these Statements/Messages often have nothing to do with the actual information you're trying to transmit.



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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. Not as bad as Freeperland, but we're closing in....
just now, today, on the home page and on this thread:

From a headline;
Chris Matthews - Nobody But Bush Would Have Took US To War With Iraq
02:12

From a Google Ad;
CONGRESS IS WAISTING YOUR MONEY >>YOU CAN STOP THEM

From a poster here on this thread;
“Not the artificial rules make by people…”


Spelling and/or grammar errors are not expected in ads or in headlines. At least they are not expected on DU.

Poster? Consider the source.


We are all human and I have read errors in text in law books, in Man Booker Prize winning novels and in newspapers. At least I found an answer for those in the newspapers, as when I asked a columnist why our local rag seemed to be devolving, he said it was due to staff layoffs and automation to save money. Law of unintended consequences is my guess. Isn't progress grand?



Just my dos centavos


robdogbucky
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. A similar book I'd like to read is "The Lexicographer's Dilemma"
by Jack Lynch -- I think it just came out last fall.

I agree that grammar isn't completely superficial, and in fact I'm a big fan of grammar. But I am also interested in sorting out that which is superficial from that which is actually useful, because I think the former undermine the latter and can hurt the language in the long run.
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zanana1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
77. I ain't forgot about grammer day.
I tells my younguns all the time to pay tention to the teechers cause you never know they mite be sayin something rite.
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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
79. Not I.
Although English continues to evolve, I deplore some of the usage that has come to be conventional. One of my particular betes noir is the use of "impact" as a verb. "Affect" is perfectly acceptable.

In fact, lingual violence is especially disturbing. To wit: instead of "working to eradicate" or "opposing" bad things, we have to "combat" (also not a verb) everything. Argh. /off rant.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. Turning nouns into verbs is a perfectly normal part of English.
It's a very common phenomenon in languages poor in word endings, like English and Chinese.
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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. Maybe so, but it just irks me.
It smacks of laziness, when there are already extant verbs for the noun being verbed (see what I did there?)
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. "Smacks of laziness" is a value judgement, not a valid linguistic argument.
It's a stupid thing to irked about, especially since I'm sure you do it all the time without thinking about it.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
81. It are?
I should talk.
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
83. I disagree with the boning/deboning the fish example.
If I told someone I was boning a fish, I'd never hear the end of it.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #83
107. !!!
:rofl:
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
88. I did not know nothing about that. nt
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
89. Very unique and most unique are acceptable..unique means one-of-a-kind, so certainly
something can be even more unique than not having anything else like it.
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Sal Minella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. What?
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Demoiselle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #89
117. How can something be even more unique than not having anything else like it?
Unique is absolute, isn't it? It means "one of a kind." Unusual is a better word, it seems to me, if you want to talk about something that's very unusual, or somewhat unusual.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
93. Some of the replies to this thread are a linguist's worst nightmare.
Really, people; prescriptively-correct grammar is NOT the ONLY kind of grammar that's "true language." Language is about communicating meaning. Unless we're talking about a formal speech or paper that requires "official" grammar in order to be appropriate, then grammar is not terribly important. Yes, your elementary school teachers told you otherwise, and that's understandable--they want you to grow up being perceived as higher-class and educated. Use of prescriptive grammar is more about indicating social class, education, and wealth than about what's "right." However, there is nothing inherently superior about using prescriptively-correct grammar as opposed to using rhetorically-correct grammar, assuming that the venue is informal (not a speech or formal paper or some other medium in which grammatical correctness actually matters.)

Language is arbitrary--there IS no "right" outside of the mental grammar structures we all learn from birth. The only true grammatical failures are the ones that interfere with meaning in such a way that the listener cannot understand the message.

A'ight?

:D
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #93
108. Well played, sir/madam. n/t
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #93
110. Colorless Green Nightmares even!
Sometimes Linguistics seems like a secret science... Thanks for making the point better than I could have.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #93
113. I keep saying that and get crucified for it.
Some time ago I posted that I was an educated person and I have no problem using double negatives, "ain't", and "me and" subjects in colloquial speech, and another DUer asked "why do you want to sound uneducated?". :eyes:
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
100. I'm organizing a book burning ...
Edited on Fri Mar-05-10 07:13 PM by RoyGBiv
We're just burning one book, but the fire shall consume each and every copy of each and every edition of Strunk and White in existence.

And I shall laugh as I begin my sentences with conjunctions.

You might enjoy this: http://ling.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/LandOfTheFree.pdf

... or this: http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497


The Elements of Style does not deserve the enormous esteem in which it is held by American college graduates. Its advice ranges from limp platitudes to inconsistent nonsense. Its enormous influence has not improved American students' grasp of English grammar; it has significantly degraded it.

The authors won't be hurt by these critical remarks. They are long dead. William Strunk was a professor of English at Cornell about a hundred years ago, and E.B. White, later the much-admired author of Charlotte's Web, took English with him in 1919, purchasing as a required text the first edition, which Strunk had published privately. After Strunk's death, White published a New Yorker article reminiscing about him and was asked by Macmillan to revise and expand Elements for commercial publication. It took off like a rocket (in 1959) and has sold millions.

This was most unfortunate for the field of English grammar, because both authors were grammatical incompetents. Strunk had very little analytical understanding of syntax, White even less. Certainly White was a fine writer, but he was not qualified as a grammarian. Despite the post-1957 explosion of theoretical linguistics, Elements settled in as the primary vehicle through which grammar was taught to college students and presented to the general public, and the subject was stuck in the doldrums for the rest of the 20th century.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #100
109. haha!
Yes, that book is definitely overrated, and though I don't know that I want to burn it, necessarily, I can certainly understand the impulse :)

Thanks for the link to the PDF -- I remember reading through the Chronicle piece a while back, but I'd never seen that longer article, and it looks like it has several additional examples. So I've saved it for future reference. (And to defend myself against the charge of "heretic" from some other folks in my department.)

I love the comment that the book's style advice is, as the Hitchhiker's Guide says of earth, "mostly harmless." :rofl: I still remember getting that book as a Christmas gift back when I was in junior high or so. It's actually not bad as a quick/intro style guide, provided one doesn't take it too seriously. Unfortunately, many people do take it *way* too seriously.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #109
111. Well, okay ...
I won't burn it. I'll fantasize about it though. ;)

Do you read Language Log? Geoff Pullum, the author of that piece, somewhat regularly goes off on S&W in his Language Log posts. I find it deliciously amusing.

I had many battles in college with a history professor who used S&W as his grammar bible. One semester I was taking him, I also took a linguistics class and shared my frustration with the professor of the latter. This began a war between the history and English departments.

It was awesome.

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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #111
115. I'll have to check out Language Log
I've seen that site in the past, but haven't read it regularly. Looks like there's a lot of good stuff on there.

"This began a war between the history and English departments."

Sounds fun! :rofl:
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #100
114. That book needs to be banned from all English departments.
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Poiuyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #100
118. You should read the book "Spunk and Bite."
It takes aim at Strunk and White for advocating writing that would tend to be boring (strip off all adjectives, etc.). The author points out that EB White, who is one of my favorite authors, didn't follow the advice he gave in his own writing.
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