The TRUTH about Gravel's sales tax plan - There is a PREBATE for poor, they get a check every month

[Herman Munster]

They will end up paying little if any tax and no more than what they are paying now.

His tax is progressive. It's not frankly realistic and he won't be elected president, so who really cares anyway what his tax plan is?

He is speaking the truth on Iraq and that is what is most important.

[Adelante]

1. There isn't a candidate I like everything about

Not a one.

I love Mike Gravel for his truth-telling ways and for not being sold as some kind of gift-wrapped toy.

[hfojvt]

4. his tax idea is enough of a deal killer for me

That's my pet issue. So I really do not care what else he says about the MIC. I mean, I hope he keeps saying it, but he oughta shut up about taxes IMO, and there's no way I'd vote for him in a primary.

[high density]

10. Well there are certain things I can't overlook

And this tax plan is one of them... Unless he left some sort of capital gains tax in place I don't see how this could be a "fair" thing to do. The Bill Gates types wouldn't be able to spend their money fast enough to get up in the tax bracket that they should be in.

[hfojvt]

2. It's not progressive

Where the line for the prebate? Suppose it is at $40,000 for a family of 4. Then a family making $45,000 pays 30% on their expenses, which will probably be 90% of their income. A family making $4,500,000 also pays 30% on their expenses, which might be 60% of their income. They would pay $810,000 (or 20%). The family at $45,000 pays $12,150 or 27%.

Thus it is clearly regressive. Also wonder if there is an exemption for stock and bond purchases? If there is, wouldn't that be a boost for the Nikkei, and what about tourists, would they pay 30% sales tax? Expect a drop in tourism then if they do. If they don't, then expect alot of immigrants to pretend to be tourists.

and so on

http://www.gravel2008.us/fair_tax

To me, that does not bring any excitement to the mix. It is alot of the same old Republican anti-tax shite. He calls a sales tax progressive. Says because the wealthy spend more they will pay more. Uh, dude that's not what progressive means. Progressive is about the percent a person pays, not about the total amount. It also sounds like the Kansas system. In Kansas, they do the unthinkable - they charge sales tax on food!!! However, they provide a food sales tax rebate for low income people. Except they don't. They give the rebate to low income people who a) are over 55, or b) have children. If you are a childless person under 55, you will not get a rebate even if you make less money than somebody over 55 who gets a rebate. Here a 55 year old person making $25,799 gets $36 (which first of all, implies that he will only spend $480 on food in a year and second, is the same amount that a person making $12,901 gets). Thirdly, I make $11,000 and get nothing because I am only 45.

In sum: his plan there is
a) poorly thought out and peppered with inaccuracies
b) repeats alot of Republican anti-tax spin points
c) would be a windfall for the rich and a burden to the middle class and poor.

All in all, on a scale of one to ten, I give it 9 thumbs down

[Strelnikov_]

8. Agree. I think David Cay Johnson has written about how this would be a windfall

for those who make their money by trading paper, in other words the top 1%, the ultra rich.

Also, can you imagine the black market economy that would emerge as a result of this.

Instead of reinventing the wheel, why don't they just simplify/streamline the current tax code. There is nothing wrong with the progressive income tax that eliminating a few thousand loopholes couldn't fix.

[hfojvt]

11. I suggested getting rid of one loophole

and neither DU nor Robert Reich liked the idea
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/25

That's one trouble with loopholes. They will save the middle class a nickel and save the upper class ten thousand. Try to close the loophole and lots of people get mad about losing their nickels.

[TahitiNut]

19. Exactly. No tax on sale or exchange of corporate stock means windfall for the ultra-wealthy.

Elimination of the INCOME tax in favor of a SALES tax also means no tax on capital gains. So ... anyone proposing a national sales tax can FIRST try to apply that to the sale and exchange of corporate stock - which is nothing but the ownership of property.

But it's a 'special' kind of property which has value primarily because of the labors of others ... and those others don't even have to be working to make the property valuable. For example, an idle factory has value above and beyond the value of the real estate solely based on the availability of labor to earn a profit for the owner. It's like an apple orchard ... if there were no apple pickers then the orchard would have far less value: none based on any expectation of profits, for sure.

It's parasitism on the economy. "Productivity" is measured in terms of the ratio of the market value of the product divided by the cost of the labor. Drive down labor costs and "productivity" goes up. One of the key ratios for comparing the market value of various stocks is P/E (the price to earnings ratio). As 'earnings' (income less expense) rise, so does (stock) price ... since a higher P/E disincentivizes trade in that stock.

The notion that this property can be sold or exchanged without a sales tax is, imho, an abomination.

[bobbolink]

22. Thank you. There are so few advocates for poor folk anymore.

I appreciate your words.

:hug:

[bobbolink]

3. Where does the check go to those who have NO ADDRESS????

Thanks for reminding us that the waaaarrrrrr is so much more important than poor people suffering and dying in this country.

We would never have guessed that we don't count.

Thanks ever for the reminder.

[hfojvt]

5. the wars on the poor, the working class and marijuana smokers

do not get the same headlines, even though they generate far more American casualties.

Plus, Gravel is the only Democrat who will end the war apparently.

[bobbolink]

21. Poor folk don't matter for shit, especially at DU.

Yet, just watch.... come election time next year, and DU will be FULL of moans about "getting out the vote", and all that shit.

They could be working in poor areas right now, asking what would help ppoor folk, and doing, yanno, that old time neighborhood organizing that Dems *USED* to be so good at.

But, noooooo, so much better to dismiss and ignore people in need, then have the gall to complain "they don't vote".

:nuke:

[Herman Munster]

7. well

I'd say homeless people or people with no address don't pay much sales taxes now. Most of what they buy is through the underground economy.

[rockymountaindem]

6. Here's why it matters

First of all, I'd bet that this "prebate" won't ever manage to cover everything that the poor would end up having to pay in taxes. Furthermore, making sure that everybody who's eligable to get this "prebate" actually gets it would be a mammoth tax. What about the homeless who have to buy their food and supplies like the rest of us but don't have an address to pick up their checks? They'd fall right through the cracks. Other people who are living in rural areas on the fringes of society would be equally disadvantaged, and they'd still be paying 30% more for everything they eventually needed to buy.

Furthermore, this *is* a huge deal. Tax policy, trade policy, and everything else that touches on economics is *key* to both the macro-policy of the US and the daily lives of its citizens. Just because the Iraq war is the biggest issue, and make no mistake that it is worty of that status, doesn't minimize the importance of other issues. If the biggest fault someone can find with a candidate is on, say, national parks or something, that's one thing. But a total overhaul of our tax system must be considered carefully, and I don't think that Gravel's plan is the answer, nor is it a progressive idea.

If we're willing to give a long-shot candidate like Gravel a pass on this bass-ackwards tax plan because of his stand on the war, what are we going to be willing to overlook in the major candidates as we develop tunnel vision on Iraq? That's why it's so important. Mike Gravel might not be a big deal, but the way people react to him is an indicator of the way they will react towards the policies of major candidates, and that's why this Gravelmania is making people like me, who are looking at factors other than Iraq, a little worried about all the jumping to conclusions about Gravel's sainthood.

That being said, I hope he sticks around for more debates because he does raise issues Re: Iraq that should be raised. Not that I necessarily agree with him there either, but it's all worth consideration and I think we need a broad spectrum of ideas. This tax thing, however, should rightly cause concern with most of us and yet a lot of people are willingly sticking their heads in the sand 'cause of Iraq. That's the problem.

[bobbolink]

23. Thank you so very much for caring enough to stand up to this.

I can't tell you how much it hurts to see the ignorance and lack of concern for poor folk.

I appreciate your words more than you know.

:hug:

[rockymountaindem]

28. I'm glad

I think you're a pretty good fighter for your cause, which ought to be the cause of every good liberal no matter which way the wind is blowing in foreign policy. We can't afford to trade peace in Iraq for economic sanity and justice. We need to have both. Evidently some people either can't walk and chew gum at the same time, or else they just really, really don't like it.

[SlipperySlope]

9. K&R

[unblock]

12. if EVEN i bought that, OVER TIME the prebate would be eroded to nothing

they'd find a way to "accidently" forget to index it to inflation, or suspend adjustments every now and again to make the budget work. whatever. one way or another, the poor will get screwed, and this just makes it too obvious and easy.

it's also a rhetoric bonanza for right-wingers -- direct handouts to the poor.

[bobbolink]

24. Absolutely! Thank you for speaking truth on this mess!

I noticed you didn't even get a reply to your reasoned response.

It has been very hurtful for some of us poor folk on this forum to see in action the lack of concern for those of us who barely keep alive, and to see the lack of willingness to even LISTEN to what we have to say on this. Not to mention the outright ugliness.

Thank you for your reasoned words. It means more to me than you know!

:hug:

[IChing]

13. I agree I won't vote for him but his voice needs to be heard

He is cantankerous, it is like having an old DU member bring up things
that need to be at least debated and discussed. He was the only candidate
that has brought up the Military Industrial Complex besides Dennis.

[w4rma]

14. Because everyone wants to keep track of every single solitary purchase, no matter how small, so that

we can each hire accountants and read each faded receipt and get our rebate check in April. :sarcasm:

Imagine the IRS audits that come from this. Also, do you really want the federal government knowing everything you have ever bought throughout the year in a nice organized list?

[jpgray]

15. Nonsense. There is a reason most obscenely rich people support a flat tax

As your income approaches the GDP of small countries, your consumable expenditures become a lower and lower percetange of that income. Many won't sign up for the prebate, many will still use a higher percentage of income on taxed goods than the obscenely rich, and thus it is a regressive tax.

[dsc]

16. My problem with Gravel is the direct democracy stuff

As a minority, and one not well thought of it should be noted, direct democracy would be a disaster for me. Hell would freeze over before gay rights passed a national referendum.

[originalpckelly]

20. What's needed is to form a strong majority opinion that is for the protection of gays and lesbians

It's the only way any equal protection and treatment by law will happen and stay as permanent as possible. Democracy is a natural truth, if the majority hate homosexuals, then that hatred will become law in practice, just as the Jim Crow laws existed in direct contradiction of the amended US Constitution.

The good part is that the opinions of younger people are already profoundly changing, and many if not a majority have absolutely no problem with homosexuality and treat it as it is, just another trait not to be used to discriminate. We need to grow that and ensure that trend continues, and eventually the bigots will die off, as they did and are doing with racism.

Once enough people are of the opinion that homosexuality is just another trait not to be used to discriminate, then it will become socially unacceptable to be an anti-homosexual bigot.

In the meantime, the northern states will continue to legalize civil unions, a first step in the direction of full marriage and respect. Eventually, there will be calls to give full marriage and the respect that goes along with it. It will take a while for marriage or even civil unions in red states, but all lasting change does.

[Maru Kitteh]

17. Kick

[SoCalDem]

18. Why not just eliminate the first $50K from ANY taxes?

The really poor, already are accounted for and known to the states where they live and recieve benefits. Just beef up their benefits, build some REAL affordable housing, and subsidize their incomes through state reimbursement., and the tax plan we have works.. (after we roll back the cuts to the rickie riches)

[lukasahero]

27. That was Wes Clark's position

Which I fully support. No taxes for families earning $50k or less. Period.

[WinkyDink]

25. And if one is homeless, the check gets sent where?

[bbgrunt]

26. just wanna say that I am gratified and truly heartened to

see so many duers so full of clarity and passion about the regressiveness of what some are trying to call the "fair" tax....and I agree with you all.