Death at SeaWorld in Orlando

[RockaFowler]

http://www.wptv.com/content/breakingnews/story/SeaWorld-trainer-dies-whale-death-wptv/lvNZF3t1u0yIfAvoC9pn5Q.cspx

Central Florida TV stations are reporting a death at SeaWorld in Orlando.

WFTV says the victim was a trainer. However, fire rescue had not confirmed that report.

An anonymous caller told WESH 2 News that the person who died was Shamu's trainer.

A headline in the Orlando Sentinel says a female trainer was killed in a whale attack at SeaWorld’s Shamu Stadium.

Local 6 news quoted a witness as saying the whale, "took off really fast in the tank and he came back, shot up in the air, grabbed the trainer by the waist and started thrashing (her) around."




This is just awful. Animals like this should not be kept in captivity.

[Botany]

1. No matter how big the tank and how well they are fed it is cruel to keep ..

... an Orca like they do. In the wild they travel thousands of miles @ sea world they are lucky to have a city's block
worth of space. I knew some people who worked w/ the marine mammals @ a Sea World and they would say
sometimes they would be very grumpy.

[arcadian]

5. Yes it is very cruel

And exploitive.

[Botany]

8. They can speak, think, have highly developed brains, and live in ......

..... pods i.e. communities. In the wild they travel hundreds of miles, can leap 15 feet + in the air,
and dive to great depths so to keep them in little tanks so we can trot them out for a show
is so very wrong. One day if we are lucky we will be able to speak to them and boy we will have
a lot of explaining to do.

[Maru Kitteh]

37. It's like locking a human being into a nice walk-in closet for years on end.

Sooner or later,

[Cetacea]

55. A gifted child at that.

Agreed.

[TuxedoKat]

2. Agreed

I read an article about large animals like this kept in captivity, specifically elephants and killer whales. Basically it stated that the stress of the unatural living conditions would get to them and occassionally they would act unpredictably with sometimes tragic results.

[Shell Beau]

3. Holy moly. How tragic. I am sure she felt some bond with this whale

too. Kinda like the tigers with the magicians. But I agree that these whales aren't meant for tanks. They let us get close to them and provide entertainment, but really they need to be free.

I am so sorry for this girl, her friends and family, and the people who saw it happen. I hope they don't kill the whale though.

[pipi_k]

4. Using wild animals for the amusement of humans...

No wonder they (the animals) get pissed off.

[Tailormyst]

6. Just awful

They should not play games with apex predators. The whale was just being what he is. So sorry for this woman's family.

[DrDan]

7. it might be the same whale involved with a 1999 death

[Botany]

9. Might be ...... I knew some people from the N.E. Ohio Sea World then.

That guy was a first class idiot .... he went in after hours in his underwear to "play"
with the whales.

[Arkansas Granny]

13. Apparently this whale had been involved in a couple of other incidents.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/os-seaworld-orlando-shamu-injury-20100224,0,5560011.story

It's just not natural to keep animals like this in artificial situations for entertainment purposes. Unfortunate incidents are bound to occur.

[TornadoTN]

14. It is. Check the Orlando Sentinel link here

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-seaworld-orlando-shamu-injury-20100224,0,942688.story


Seems this whale has a checkered history, dating back to 1991 and several thereafter.

They shouldn't be in captivity at all.

[Shell Beau]

18. They shouldn't at all but releasing them would

probably mean a certain death for them. Aren't many of these animals born in captivity? They should be allowed to swim as far and deep as they want to. x(

And I am so sorry for this woman and her family. What a tragedy.

[pipi_k]

25. I'm watching the news now...it was apparently involved in two other deaths

in the past.

Now there's "intelligence" for ya...

Stupid humans think a wild animal that's killed before won't do it again.

[RamboLiberal]

67. I was watching a program last week about how pods of killer whales

each learn how to hunt and kill prey like seals, dolphins, stingrays and even sharks. Different pods develop different techniques and teach it to other members of the pod. Amazingly smart creatures.

[Cetacea]

102. Funny how they don't do the same with humans.

Makes ya think..

[Cass]

10. These animals are not meant to be in captivity, it is beyond cruel to confine them in this way.

They are forced to live in conditions that are completely unnatural to them. An orca is a fierce predator in the wild and should not be relegated to a life as a performing circus animal.

If you ever get the chance, read Behind the Dolphin Smile by Ric O'Barry. The author was Flipper's trainer years ago who turned against the practice of keeping dolphins in captivity as a result of his experiences as a trainer.

[RockaFowler]

12. That was a good book

I refuse to go to any of these shows because of this. There is a place in the Florida Keys called Theatre of the Sea (or something like that). They have dolphins who perform tricks, but the whole show is in a lagoon that was created after a hurricane many years ago. The dolphins were trapped there, but now live there comfortably.

[ThomThom]

46. should we close all zoos also

I won't go to one

[pipi_k]

58. I won't go either. But there are zoo/wildlife sanctuaries...

where wild animals that couldn't survive out in the wild due to some injury or birth defect are kept.


The animals are in enclosures that approximate their natural surroundings as closely as possible. I don't mind going to them because I know without them the animals would die.

But at least they're not being used for the amusement of humans.


I was glad when greyhound racing was outlawed in my state in 2008.

[GirlAfire]

111. I Had the Misfortune

...of attending my city zoo a few days ago. I hadn't been in over 15 years and wanted to see what it was like. It was HORRIBLE. I hear there are some nice zoos (pleasant captivity? Hmmmm....), but I'm not a big fan of them.

EDIT: I just thought of the seals. The enclosure had to be no longer than 15 feet. It was disgusting.

[EFerrari]

11. Mother Nature fighting back.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. Goddamn fish.

Wipe out the ungodly bastards, I says.

[Ron Green]

16. Orcas coming home to roost.

[Jennicut]

17. It happened at the beginning of a show. People saw this. Very tragic.

For the trainer, and the whale being kept in an environment that must make it miserable.

[Cali_Democrat]

19. Unfortunately I think the whale needs to be put to death now

Similar to how we put dogs to death when they attack and kill humans. Once a whale has killed a human, it might never be the same again and the death penalty is warranted. It's tragic and sad but probably necessary.

[RagAss]

20. How does one put a whale to death?

[Cali_Democrat]

21. Lethal injection?

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. Shotguns.

[Cetacea]

70. Coool.

:puke:

[Shell Beau]

23. So the whale should be put down for doing things that whales do?

How is this at all fair? And I certainly can't speak for the girl who died, but if it were me, I wouldn't want the animal put down. Neither did Roy when his beloved tiger attacked him. It isn't quite the same as a fatal dog attack. The whale should be taken out of the show though. This is a risk you take when you are working with wild dangerous animals. It is tragic, but to kill the whale would only make it more tragic.

[pipi_k]

26. This is one reason why I sometimes despise my own species...

We kill animals for doing what they do.

We use them for our own amusement...take them out of their natural habitat...expect them to "behave", then murder them when they act like the wild creatures they really are.

[Shell Beau]

28. Exactly. It would be devastating to kill the whale.

At least to me it would be. I am sure the girl who died was fully aware of the dangers her job posed. It is a killer whale. They can be docile creatures, but they didn't get the name killer whale for nothing. They actually kill whales and many other big animals. You can never know what an animal with huge potential to be dangerous is going to do. It is a risk this girl was willing ot take. It is so tragic and unfortunate that she died, especially the way she died.

[Bluebear]

39. This is why my "ignored" list is a good thing.

Whoever made the comment to put the whale down, I am just reminded that my ignore choices are pretty good.

[Cali_Democrat]

27. It's not fair at all...in fact, it really sucks

Poor thing was just doing what it was born to do. Orcas are predators and they attack.

We put dogs to death all the time when they attack and kill humans. This is really no different.

[Shell Beau]

29. Dogs are domesticated and have been for a very long time.

This is a killer whale. There is a huge difference. It is kinda like having a whale in a cage.

[Cali_Democrat]

31. But the problem is that this whale is around humans all the time

It's probably now considered a real danger to the trainers and the people that interact with the whale.

[Shell Beau]

33. It shouldn't be in the show anymore, and it likely

can't be released. It is time to retire the whale and do whatever it is they do to their retired whales. Killing this whale is not the answer or the right thing to do IMO.

[Fla_Democrat]

36. Yea, retire him, send him down to

Yea, retire him, send him down to Florida where he can... oh, wait. :smoke:

[Maru Kitteh]

42. There's probably no harm that could come to the whale from being released that

we have not already visited upon it.

It's really vain, the notion we humans have that a wild animal in good health couldn't possibly survive without us just because it's so darn used to us being around to hold it's flippers.

[Shell Beau]

43. I am not really all that sure about the hunting food, etc., when any

animal has been fed their entire lives. Releasing the whale could mean a certain death. Maybe they have a release program. I honestly don't know a whole lot about it, but I'd be worried about releasing him/her.

[Cass]

52. Unfortunately an animal like this would have be trained to be released.

This whale was captured from the wild and "trained" to adapt to a life in captivity. For example, in the wild it is a top predator that eats live prey; now it is fed dead fish. In order for it to be released back to the wild, it would need to be deprogrammed, so to speak. It has been done before successfuly, but it isnt always successful. It is a big undertaking but I certainly do think it is worth trying.

I wish they would outlaw keeping dolphins and orcas in captivity. It is so sad how these beautiful animals suffer in those tanks.

[Shell Beau]

61. Was this animal captured? Or do they also have some that

or born in captivity? I can only guess that would make it that much harder to release this animal if it never knew the ocean.

[Cass]

72. This particular whale was captured from the wild according to CNN.

Removing it from its pod and forcing it to adapt to a life in captivity in a tiny tank purely for human amusement. That, in itself, is incredibly cruel.

If you look at the video being shown of this whale you can see its dorsal fin all bent over - that is often caused by the animal swimming in circles. Its tail fins are all bent downward also. These animals suffer terribly in confinement. I wish this practice of capturing healthy animals from the wild to keep confined for human amusement would be outlawed.

[Maru Kitteh]

74. So this animal, born in the wild, wild enough still to kill a person couldn't figure out how to

eat a fish anymore just because a human isn't there to "help." ???

Poppycock. Humans have "helped" this whale quite enough.

[Shell Beau]

77. I would think that it would have to be somewhat prepared

to go back into the wild. If it is possible, I would love for that to happen.

[Maru Kitteh]

81. Release is always possible, training or not - and the whale at least deserves the chance

Any animal, the human one included, runs a risk of starvation in the wild. This is a wild animal. We do not seek out and put down animals in the wild because we think they might starve. We should not put this wild animal down because we think it might starve.

[Shell Beau]

84. No, I agree, but I also think that if this whale was taken in against its will

(which there would be no other way), then the least that can be done is to make sure this animal can still hunt for itself, rather than just turning it loose with no chance at all. I am sure the instincts are there, but it isn't any more fair to the animal to just release it without having a clue how it will handle it.

[Maru Kitteh]

86. Well, they didn't ply it with promises of fame and power, that's for sure!

LOL. I agree it should be trained if possible, and you are correct that would be the more just course of action, but if not - it should be released, not destroyed.

[Cass]

87. Its not poppycock. You can't just dump a captive killer whale out to sea and call it a day.

Check out the Dolphin Project which rehabs dolphins for release.

http://www.dolphinproject.org/the-protocol-.html
Dolphins react differently to captivity. Some have experienced more abuse than others. I have worked with dolphins who, when reunited with the sea, very quickly remembered who and what they were before their capture. Others needed more help, more time.

This is the story of Keiko, the killer whale from the movie Free Willy that was rehabbed for release over a period of years.

For ten years after the debut of Free Willy, until Keiko unexpectedly died in 2003, the orca made many strides, large and small, toward rejoining the wild from which he was captured in 1979. He was moved from Mexico City to a multi-million-dollar facility in Oregon to Vestmannaeyjar, Iceland, where he spent nearly four years re-learning the behaviors of a wild orca. In the summer of 2002, he traveled nearly 900 miles to Norway, where he resided in a fjord until he died in December 2003, apparently from pneumonia.

The Keiko Project was unlike any previous wildlife rehabilitation project. No one had ever attempted to reintroduce a whale to the wild after such a long period of captivity. Because of its enormity, the project had many important benefactors, supporters, and caretakers: Earth Island Institute, the Free Willy/Keiko Foundation, Warner Bros., Oregon Coast Aquarium, Craig McCaw, the Wendy P. McCaw Foundation, Ocean Futures Society, and The HSUS.
http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/what_are_the_issues/the_keiko_project_returning_keiko_to_the_wild/

[Maru Kitteh]

94. Even domesticated animals raised in captivity revert to instinct in the wild and survive, despite us

At least the ones not so far removed and crippled by our selective breeding to do so.

I agree the whale should be trained for a return if possible, but I have far more faith in this animal's ability to survive without people than I currently have in the entertainment industry's ability to keep the whale's interest at heart.

[Cass]

100. My wish is to have them all released back to the wild.

Some do fine and revert to their natural behaviors quite easily but others need more help to do it but they most certainly should be given whatever training they need to do it.

I don't think any of these animals should be removed from the wild at all. I live in Florida and many years ago the National Aquarium in Baltimore wanted to capture some dolphins from our local waters here for their marine park. We fought it and they weren't able to take any of our beautiful dolphins from their natural home here. It was then I became aware of what these animals endure during the initial capture, the subsequent orientation to captivity, and the captivity itslef. It makes me heartsick how they suffer and I hope one day this awful practice will be outlawed.

[Maru Kitteh]

136. as do I Cass, as do I {{{{hugs}}}}

[Shell Beau]

76. It is very sad for these animals. I hate it.

It is also a disaster waiting to happen. Obviously.

[misanthrope]

30. Well, dogs were created by man...

...manipulated from the genetic stock of a pre-existing animal. Orcas were not.

[Cetacea]

80. Whales do not kill people. This needs investigating.

[Shell Beau]

85. Well obviously they do.

They are animals. Most any animal has the potential and ability to kill a person. It may not be their natural predator or food, but any animal this big can and will kill a person. Maybe not even intentionally.

[Cetacea]

90. They are animals that go out of their way to be gentle with humans.

A handful of people killed in thousands of years, and all under captivity. Let the whale go free. He has more brains/memory than any of us and he'll figure out how to survive in no time.

[Codeine]

116. It has never been demonstrated

that whales are in any fashion more intelligent than humans. I cannot fathom why the goofy New Age crowd insists on buying into such silliness.

It's like the Noble Savage conceit, just transferred to a mysterious animal.

As for their gentleness, there have been a number of attacks on humans by captive whales over the years.

[Cetacea]

120. More intelligent? No. It hasn't been proven.

Why do you sceptics always insist on dragging 'new-agers" into the debate? Does Ben Nelson represent democrats? Besides, it's been my experience that the new age types are more into the captivity issues and don't give much thought to the intelligence issue.

[AllenVanAllen]

126. Whales may not be more intelligent than humans

but they are far more intelligent than most give them credit for.

Here's an article about their cousins:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article6973994.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=797084">Scientists say dolphins should be treated as 'non-human persons'

In my opinion is more intelligent to live within your environment without destroying it.

[Codeine]

130. The fact they haven't damaged their environment

bespeaks a lack of ability more than any special sensitivity or intellect. Dolphin are quite simply not equipped to do anything but live within their environment.

[Cetacea]

131. Thanks.

I believe she is in San Diego as I write this to do a formal conference on her findings.

Your opinion on intelligence and non-harmful adaptability is actually one of the criteria currently used to define intelligence.

Just an aside. The Orcas are the largest of the dolphins, and they were originally known as "whale killers" , hence the common perception that they are whales. They have a cerebral cortex that is three times that of the bottle-nose dolphin and is more convoluted than the dolphins, just as the dolphin cortex is more convoluted than ours is. I reject the brain to body weight ratio as an indicator as I believe that large brains need large bodies to protect against rotary acceleration.
(note that large bodies do not always house large brains).

[Codeine]

105. Whales do kill people.

This whale has killed three. Don't let all the New Age nonsense surrounding cetaceans blind you to the fact that they are wild animals, and can act in unpredictable and devastating fashion for reasons we can't entirely understand.

[Cetacea]

107. No, they don't. This whale did.

I've done the research. This is highly unusual. This is science, not new-age school. We learn nothing if we go on claiming that they are typical animals.

How many millions of hours of contact over the years versus three deaths (from one whale).

How would humans fare if the roles were reversed.

[Tim01]

132. Killing the trainers is what these whales do? nt

[Shell Beau]

141. That is not what I said. They are unpredictable and they

react. When they react unexpectedly, especially 12,000 lbs. of whale, it can be deadly.

[Maru Kitteh]

38. Holy Christ - how about we just let the whale go?

It's not a criminal for pity's sake. Should have just let it go to begin with.

[Cali_Democrat]

48. The whale probably doesn't know how to survive on its own

It's used to having fish thrown at it all day long. Letting the whale go would probably kill it as it starves to death.

[Maru Kitteh]

73. I find that idea to be completely arrogant. This animal is so wild it killed a person

but couldn't be trusted to figure out how to kill some damn fish? Please.

It's really vain, the notion we humans have that a wild animal in good health couldn't possibly survive without us just because it's so darn used to us being around to hold it's flippers.

[Cetacea]

83. Whales in the wild do not kill humans. This is strange.

The whale either went psychotic or had a very good reason. It's not because it is "what whales do".

[Shell Beau]

88. Well people don't really come in contact with whales in the wild.

It is what whales can do. We don't really have a clue how Orcas react to a lot of human interaction in the wild because it isn't common.

[Cetacea]

91. We have records of seamen and fishermen going back to the 1800s.

They didn't attack humans then either, not even when being attacked.

[Shell Beau]

93. Were they playing around with the whales?

Were they swimming with the whales? They are killer animals and kill and eat many different kinds of animals. They even play around with their prey before they kill it. Some are lone hunters, and some work in groups to kill. We can't really say if they would kill people naturally. Are you trying to insinuate that the girl did something to make this whale do this?

[Cetacea]

98. I am not implicating the woman who died.

It totally sucks that this happened and my heart goes out to her family. I think it was the conditions, either that or his mind snapped, so to speak.

There are documented cases of people shooting at them and all that happened was one Orca split a boat in half and eyeballed the guy who shot him. He could have killed him but chose not to.

There are numerous stories from WHALERS, not new-age swim-with-the-whales people. They have been watching us "develop" our technology over the years, watched as we built better and noisier ships that interfere with their communications, watched better ships mame and slaughter fellow whales AND people in wars.

They are probably only nice to us because they know damn well that we'd wipe them out if they had a rep for killing people. And that goes for dolphins, too.

[Shell Beau]

101. They are definitely genius animals. I hope this one can be freed.

Well, all of them should be freed, but I meant I don't want this one to be put down.

[Cetacea]

104. Perhaps the least they could do is study him/her in another facility

and try to find out what triggered this tragedy. Another death will accomplish nothing but anger a lot of people.
Ultimately total freedom would be the optimal outcome but I doubt that will happen.

[Maru Kitteh]

89. Lock yourself in a nice walk-in closet with 3 strangers for a decade or so and then get back to us.

My money (although the odds margin will probably suck) is on you being an aggressive crazy-assed psycho when we see you again.

[Cetacea]

92. Treat a genius mammal like a circus freak and get back to us.

This whale was driven crazy.

[Maru Kitteh]

95. +1000 Yes it was.

[A HERETIC I AM]

112. I'm curious if any of the three of you in the above exchange are Marine Biologists.

I'm just curious if either Maru Kitteh, Shell Beau or Cetacea (which I know to be the Latin word for Whale) have any hands on experience with captive marine mammals.

These threads have come up on occasion and they are always filled with emotional responses. I just wonder if we have any DU'rs that have any experience at all working with animals like the one in question in environments like Sea World.

The fact is Maru Kitteh, unless you have actual experience like todays victim did, it is likely you have no idea AT ALL whether or not this animal was "driven crazy" as Cetacea suggests. And unless Cetacea or anyone else on this thread making a similar claim IS a marine biologist or is credentialed in the area of cetacean intelligence, then NONE OF YOU can speak with any authority as to why this animal did what it did today.

If I am wrong and you or the others I mention above have on your curriculum vitae experience working with marine mammals in an enclosed setting, then you have my respect and my apologies for my erroneous assumptions.

[Codeine]

117. Thank you. +1

The voice of reason.

[Cetacea]

118. deleting.

I know nothing.

[A HERETIC I AM]

124. Fair enough. Edited...

And I have read articles to which you allude, having to do with the US Navy's Submarine fleet and their recordings of whale songs and sounds across the blue water oceans. Information that illuminates how far across vast distances the creatures can communicate and how their family groups know of other groups hundreds and even thousands of miles away.

The reason I ask if any of you have any credentials is because you and the others seem to be jumping to some rather dramatic conclusions, that's all.

But fine. If you are knowledgeable of whales and their behavior, then I concede to your expertise.

But stating with authority that an animal you have only read about in the news was "Driven crazy" and that it is a "genius animal" seems a bit of a stretch. You admit you haven't worked with large whales in captivity and have no direct experience with Orcas.

As far as the Beatles are concerned, you're right. They had a guy with perfect pitch come in and put the notes down on paper in the early days (so I've heard), but then again, non of them ever claimed to be so accomplished in those days as to assume they could be first violinist of the London Symphony either. Credentials come in many forms. You either know what you are talking about or you don't.

My opinion? The Whale was pissed. He was pissed off today and had had enough for whatever reason. Period.

As far as what to do with him, I say let him go. Take him to the waters off Vancouver Island and set him loose. If he is truly a "genius animal" then he'll find a pod, tell them about his life, they'll accept him into the pod and he will be integrated into it.

Or he'll starve. Beats shooting him (as was suggested above).

On edit to add the following;

Nope, sorry, you can't get away with it that easily!! I respect your opinion, so here it is, even though you deleted it;

It's a field that is only a few decades old. I can't speak for the others but no, I am not a marine biologist. And most marine biologists that I've crossed paths with haven't a clue about cetacean intelligence. One came to the conclusion through his "research" that dolphins are less intelligent than gold fish. Most do not immerse themselves in such areas as brains and intelligence, again because it is such a new field. Most are good people going about their business of being Marine Biologists.

I don't care to divulge too much here. I don't know if I qualify as an expert. I will say that I was invited by the world's foremost expert on dolphins to attend the International Whaling Commission's conference on "Cetacean Intelligence and the Ethics of Killing Them" at the Smithsonian Institute.. This was the conference which led to the current whaling moratorium.I get emotional because a lot of the so-called new discoveries that emerge from time to time are re-mixes of knowledge we had decades ago, yet the slaughters continue as does the general perception that they "bright fish". The Cold War was partially to blame for the black-out in the area of cetacean intelligence... Without going into detail, the Navy was wise to go classified with their own research.

I guess you could say that I know as much , if not more so, than any researcher currently in the field, with the exception of Navy researchers. I don't mean to come off as boasting, but you did ask.

I have not worked with dolphins or whales held in captivity at any of the oceanariums nor do I agree that they are bad, per se. As was true years ago, they do serve the purpose of educating the general public, whose general impression of whales, until recently, was formed primarily from a Herman Melville novel. They are a marvelous educational tool, however I think that the lust for money has overtaken the desire to teach and this has increased hostility in a species that has better impulse control than humans do...
Still, I think that it is more desirable to sacrifice a small number of dolphins and whales than loose the entire "nation", as it were. But changes are needed to avoid something like this from happening in the future.

At any rate, I think that I can write with some authority that this whale's behavor is highly unusual given all that I know about cetaceans and cetaceans in oceanaria.

Credentials...I don't believe the Beatles had any musical credentials when they started out. It didn't prevent them from understanding how to write a song. But there are a ton of trained musicians out there playing the same old tunes.

[Cetacea]

129. Thanks.

I didn't know this whale(famously)killed another female trainer twenty years ago. Sea World is at fault here, in my opinion. They had to know the whale's history.

I didn't mean to infer that this particular whale was a "genius" but rather was alluding to the species in a shorthand sort of way. (all indications point to Orcas being even smarter than smaller dolphins, which opens up a strong possibility that they are as intelligent as humans or more so.)

Thanks for the discussion.

[Shell Beau]

119. Nope. I am just stating my opinion in which I am an expert.

I never said why the animal did what it did. I only stated facts that I know. I really didn't know we had to be experts in the discussions that we had in GD. I better get to really studying.

[Cetacea]

122. I love your avatar.

:)

[flvegan]

121. Locally, the news went to Clearwater Marine

and the marine biologists that excel in animals such as this (in captivity and otherwise) suggested that the animal may well have been bored or otherwise mentally driven to such an unfortunate extreme.

So there you go.

[Maru Kitteh]

134. You are correct in assuming I have never been killed by an Orca

So. You are an experienced marine biologist? Faci-fuckin'-nating..

[Ignis]

50. Nah, Occam's Shotgun applies here, apparently. (nt)

[Cetacea]

56. Screw that. What was the whale's motives?

Maybe she was abusing him? Maybe he was going psychotic? Maybe we should just release them?

[Cetacea]

115. Apologies for that post.

I couldn't edit it after I realized how callous that must read. I meant to refer to a possible implication of staff and/or conditions. In no way do I believe that this trainer was unkind to this whale in any way and I am very sad that this happened to her.

[Cetacea]

66. dupe

[nashville_brook]

96. i'm sorry, but that's complete horseshit.

[Cali_Democrat]

108. It's not.

The safety of people should be the priority.

[varelse]

113. or they could set it free - which might end up having the same result

but with considerably less cruelty. Dogs are domesticated animals bred to live among, and serve, humans. Orcas are not.

[fishwax]

127. .

:crazy:

[adigal]

139. Ridiculous - just let him go back to the wild

where he belongs. He was just doing what killer whales do: kill. Why should he be killed for our stupidity in putting him in a tank and asking him to do stupid circus tricks.

[NashVegas]

22. "I'm a Man Man Man Man Man Man Eater"

video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXl870NoF4E

So the saying says
An elephant never forgets
Standing in the concrete cave
Swaying side and sing
They walked over the ocean
And thier dreams they dreamed awake
Until the lights grew dim
Until the cop cars came
Everybody tells me this is crazy, yes I know

But I'm a man man man man man man man eater
But still you're surprised prised prised when I eat ya

You know they call them killer whales
But you seem suprised
When it pinned you down to the bottom of the tank
Where you can't turn around
It took half your leg and both your lungs
And I craved I ate hearts of sharks, I know you know it

I'm a man man man man, man man man eater
But still you're surprised prised prised when I eat ya

[seeinfweggos]

32. so is the whale talking? nt

[inna]

34. Awful and tragic.

[Pithlet]

35. Aw, I remember the trainer from an epsidode of Fetch with Ruff Ruffman.

A PBS Kids show my sons like. An episode from last season was taped there.

[badgerpup]

40. Saw one of the shows with an orca about 40 years ago...

Sea World in San Diego. There were two 'Shamu's...they alternated them for shows. The one that was supposed to be doing our show was not feeling cooperative...in fact, he seemed irritated and angry.

The human performers very wisely decided NOT to get in the tank with him and ad-libbed the whole show, telling the audience about the habits of 'Orcas' (they did NOT refer to them as 'killer whales' during this lecture).
I remember the whale tossing a yellow helmet out of the tank...a safety helmet, hard hat...one of those steel ones.
HUGE holes in it where the whale's teeth had punched...right...through.
:wow:
Struck me then that these really WERE intelligent critters with minds of their own...and that Shamu could do you some serious- even fatal damage if he had a mind...even if he did usually choose to perform.

It made me wonder about the dolphin they had in a 'petting tank'-
you could actually touch the poor critter. How could it have tolerated all that HANDLING...and such a small space?
I was gentle (at least, I hope I came across as such), but was everyone else?

I still remember the feel of its skin...and no, 'living rubber' doesn't even come close.

[RamboLiberal]

62. Interesting article from Frontline on dangers these trainers face

The same whale that killed the trainer today helped kill this trainer in 1991. Also in 1999 they found a trespasser dead in this whale's tank at SeaWorld, Orlando.

On February 20, 1991, University of Victoria marine biology student and part-time trainer Keltie Byrne, 20, slipped and fell into the orca pool at Sealand of the Pacific. She had just finished a show with the three orcas. Since Sealand trainers stay out of the water, she was not wearing a wetsuit. One whale took her in its mouth and began dragging her around the pool, mostly underwater. A champion swimmer who had competed at the international level, she was no match for three huge orcas determined to keep her in the pool. At one point she reached the side and tried to climb out but, as horrified visitors watched from the sidelines, the whales pulled her screaming back into the pool.

"I just heard her scream my name," said trainer Karen McGee, 25, and then I saw she was in the pool with the whales. "I threw the life-ring out to her. She was trying to grab the ring, but the whale, basically, wouldn't let her. To them it was a play session, and she was in the water." McGee and other Sealand staff tried to distract the whales by throwing them fish, banging on the water with steel buckets and giving them hand and voice commands. Nothing worked. Byrne came up screaming one more time and then, as the whale swam round and round the pool with Byrne in its mouth, she finally drowned. It was several hours before her body could be recovered.

She had ten tooth marks on her body, the largest on her left thigh, but was otherwise untouched. The whales had stripped her clothes off. "It was just a tragic accident," Sealand manager Alejandro Bolz told newspaper reporters. "I just cannot explain it."

In May 1989, 21 months before the fatal incident, Sealand trainer Eric Walters told me he had quit the park because of differences of opinion over management. He felt Sealand was understaffed and unsafe. He complained to Sealand management before he left, but nothing was done. In April 1990, ten months before Keltie Byrne was killed, Walters wrote a detailed letter stating his concerns to the Canadian Federation of Humane Societies on the occasion of a national symposium on cetaceans in captivity. "Sealand of the Pacific is a dangerous place to work," he wrote. "I feel that sooner or later someone is going to get seriously hurt." His words were prophetic.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/whales/debate/trainers.html

[Leftist Agitator]

41. "Animals like this should not be kept in captivity."

They absolutely SHOULD be kept in captivity. If anything, MORE of them should be kept in captivity.

What makes you think that YOU know any better?

[Shell Beau]

45. Name one good reason why whales should be held captive.

[Leftist Agitator]

60. For the entertainment of humans.

That, and if they're set free, the Japanese would just kill and eat them.

[Shell Beau]

64. We can certainly entertain ourselves without keeping animals captive.

And I hate what the Japanese do to the whales, but still I can't think of any good reason to keep whales captive.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Shell Beau]

78. I can only hope you are being sarcastic.

[Leftist Agitator]

79. Hey, I'm not the one who'd rather have dead whales than captive ones!

That would be you, sugar.

[Shell Beau]

82. I am quite the Sugar, but it is best used by my husband.

I am not for any dead animal. I am for animals living in their natural habitat the way they were intended to. The Japanese killing whales is a totally different deal. And I am strongly against whale poaching.

[quaker bill]

44. This is not the first time

If memory serves well, this is the third trainer lost to such an attack in Orlando at Seaworld. I may be off, it could be two deaths and a severe injury, but I am pretty sure there have been at least three reported Orca attacks there over the years. There could even be more that have gone unreported, if they were less severe.

[proteus_lives]

47. Nice to all the sympathy for the trainer who got killed...oh wait.

This DU and many think animals are more important then people.

[Shell Beau]

49. I talked all about her and her family and those who saw this happen.

I am still concerned about what is going to happen to the whale though. I am sure the other trainers there are as well. And if this girl is anything like Roy and his tiger, she wouldn't want the whale to die. It does go beyond her death. Working with deadly animals should be addressed. Especially when it is all in family fun.

[proteus_lives]

54. You're in the minority.

Most here think she deserved it for some reason.

[Cetacea]

59. Highly unusual. Whales don't kill people.

Motive?

[proteus_lives]

65. Beats me. It's a wild animal.

[RamboLiberal]

71. May not have meant to kill or maybe it did

The danger was this whale had killed humans before and retained the memory of how. These whales will also play with their kill. Show I watched last week members of the pod played with a seal pup tossing it into the air before finally killing it.

[1620rock]

51. Ya know, sometimes ya fuck with the bull you get the hornes.

[proteus_lives]

53. Yeah. She deserved die.

:eyes:

On the "hornes" on a whale.

[Shell Beau]

57. I don't think anyone thinks she deserved to die. It is quite tragic.

I can only assume she knew full well the risks associated with her job. Doesn't mean she deserved to die at all. I am sure she loved what she did. I know I would love working with whales, but a huge risk comes with that just like it does working with any potentially dangerous animal. I am quite sad for her and her friends and family. I am also sad for the people who witnessed the attack. But you really can't blame the whale either. It did what they naturally do unfortunately. They aren't called killer whales for nothing. In fact, the kill quite a lot of different big animals. They are amazing creatures that are best kept in the wild. Sea World is full of entertainment, but this just goes to show that it really isn't a good idea to have any large animal, that has natural instincts to kill, caged up. I am so conflicted with zoos for this same reason.

[proteus_lives]

69. Yeah, sometimes I think that too.

Perhaps they're too big and dangerous.

I don't blame the whale either but I'm dismayed by the attitudes of some.

[merh]

97. I didn't know her.

I would think that after all these years she loved the creatures she worked with. I also think she knew the dangers involved in her job.


File photo of SeaWorld trainer Dawn Brancheau, who was killed during an accident at the park Wednesday, February 24, 2010. (ORLANDO SENTINEL FILE / December 30, 2005)

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-seaworld-orlando-shamu-injury-20100224,0,942688.story

I don't believe she would want Tilly put down.



He should be released to the wild.

[Cetacea]

99. This so sux.

Thanks for posting that photo.

[Shell Beau]

103. It is clear she loved them by that picture. RIP.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GirlAfire]

110. Ummm....

...I'm pretty sure there were a number of people who expressed sympathy for the trainer. And to express sympathy or concern for the animal is not to be indifferent about the trainer's death.

I've never understood why this is so difficult to understand.

[NashVegas]

138. Was She Or Was She Not Complicit In the Animal's Captivity?

[flvegan]

68. Lolita: Slave to Entertainment

A Rattle the Cage production. I highly recommend that folks watch this if they think having these animals in captivity is a good idea. I was lucky enough to be speaking at an event at which this was first premiered. I was very impressed.

My condolences to the family and loved ones of the trainer, but it shouldn't come as a huge surprise that this will indeed happen now and then.

http://www.slavetoentertainment.com/index2.htm

Full movie here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4824480671145508847#

[Kajsa]

106. This is a horrible tragedy that should not have happened.

The animals held in captivity are often angry and it surfaces,
even twenty years later.

I am very sad this young trainer was killed. I understand
why this happened. It didn't need to.

These animals are not here on earth to be props in the entertainment
industry.

They are pissed off and some will snap.

Tragedy and death are often the results.

My condolences to this young women's family.

:(

[GirlAfire]

109. Agreed

"This is just awful. Animals like this should not be kept in captivity."

[Edwin Edwards Fan]

114. I saw that girl once.

I made a trip there a few years ago and have a photo of that girl. She was a good entertainer.

[Puzzler]

123. A similar thing happened here in Victoria's "Sealand" 20 years ago

"Sealand" was essentially a miniature version of Marineland and Seaworld. Then one day, one of the whales (for no apparent* reason) killed one one the trainers. It pretty much drowned the young woman. It seemed to be quite deliberate too.

"Sealand" folded not long after.


(I say "apparent" because I'm sure the whale had its reasons)


http://en.allexperts.com/e/s/se/sealand_of_the_pacific.htm

[bertman]

125. They don't call them KILLER whales for nothing. Ever watch a video of them hunting and feeding??

Any human who falls in love with the idea of "training" WILD animals like lions, tigers, killer whales, bears. deserves whatever he/she gets. This woman may have "loved" the whale but she didn't seem to realize that the relationship was a one-way street.

It's our arrogance as humans that allows us to think that we can get into a cage or tank with a predatory creature and not expect to eventually become the prey--or the play toy.

The whole idea of keeping these magnificent creatures in captivity is CRIMINAL. All this talk about what a sweet girl she was and she didn't deserve to die, blah blah is emotional bullshit. She was making a living doing something the SHE loved with a wild animal who was being kept in an unnatural setting. If she didn't know the danger inherent in her "job", she was beyond stupid.

[Cetacea]

128. Originally they were appropriately called "Whale Killers".

But never "human killers." I can't find any blame for the trainer. This whale has a history going back twenty years. He famously killed another trainer then and SEA WORLD took him in anyway. For profit, no doubt. I'm leaning to wards the corporation being libel here.

[LeftyMom]

133. 40% of living captive-born Orcas are descended from this whale.

Using the population data at http://www.ceta-base.com/orcensus/ I ran a little math:

There are 42 total captive Orcas currently alive in aquariums and animal parks worldwide. 30 of those are captive-born, the other 12, including this whale, were caught in the wild.

Of the 30 currently living captive-born whales, 10 were fathered by this whale, (who is a donor for Sea World's breeding program, and thanks do assisted reproduction has babies all over the darned place) and two were fathered by his eldest son.

Put another way, if you pool together the entire captive Orca population, 30% are in his bloodline, including all but two of the captive males in North America (of the other two, one is wild-caught, the other is the child of a similarly prolific father on the Asian and European aquarium circuit.)

The obvious issues with captivity aside for a moment, I don't think there's any way you can argue that's a responsible way to run a breeding program.

[Arugula Latte]

135. Very sad ... and it's very surprising this doesn't happen more often.

[Ichingcarpenter]

137. The whale should be

Tried by a jury of his peers and if found guilty rendered accordingly by law


Shame about the trainers death but I don't care for sea world's captaive circus program of sentient beings

[Puzzler]

140. It was one of the orcas from the old Victoria "Sealand"...

... that was involved in the Seaworld death:

(see my reply #123 in this thread)


"A killer whale that was moved to SeaWorld in Florida from Oak Bay's (a municipality of Greater Victoria) Sealand of the Pacific after a trainer drowned in the whale tank has been linked to the death of another person.

Dan Brown, president of SeaWorld Orlando, confirmed that an experienced 40-year-old trainer, identified as Dawn Brancheau, was killed in an incident with a whale yesterday afternoon.

The whale in the pool was Tillikum, a 30-year-old, 5,000-kilogram killer whale sent from Victoria to Florida in 1992."


http://www.timescolonist.com/technology/Orca+from+Sealand+kills+third+person+this+SeaWorld+Florida/2608325/story.html

Read more: http://www.timescolonist.com/technology/Orca+from+Sealand+kills+third+person+this+SeaWorld+Florida/2608325/story.html#ixzz0gYuCsguQ