So who the heck is this Gravel dude?

[garybeck]

I was impressed by his blunt statement last night. That's what I like to see - someone who will just lay it on the line, stop talking rhetoric and soundbytes. He took the words right out of my mouth. He definitely got my interest.

if you haven't seen it yet, check this out:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/04/26/democratic-candidate-debategravel-some-of-these-people-frighten-me/

[lse7581011]

1. I Was Very Much Impressed! n/t

[spotbird]

2. He's from the Democratic wing

of the Democratic Party, he won't last long.


I'm interested in who he is as well.

[w4rma]

42. He's from the Libertarian (big-L) wing. (nt)

[Philosoraptor]

3. Ross Perot in a costume?

[Hissyspit]

4. He was my senator in the early 70s.

Alaska. He ended the draft.

[Blue_In_AK]

50. Hissy, you might be interested to know

that he got a GREAT review from our local news last night, talking about how he wasn't afraid to speak his mind (a very Alaskan quality).

http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S=6435087

[Rhiannon12866]

65. Thanks for posting these links, very interesting!

I've seen interviews with him before and really liked what he had to say. I thought that he was great during the debate, too, and I'm looking forward to hearing more from him. :-)

[npincus]

5. Gravel for President!

HAR HAR HAR- I love this guy! He's doing us a big favor.... he plays the role of the left-wing fringe and makes the rest look "moderate". That takes that label away from the RWers.

[Ignacio Upton]

13. He sounds like he's to the left of Kucinich

Which makes even him look relatively moderate in the primary. He's also a very interesting orator, even though he has a snowball's chance in hell of winning.

[AliceBlitzstein]

59. how is he left wing?

Is that because he said he wouldn't use nuclear weapons in a presumptive invasion of another country because that would be immoral? What's the moderate side of that issue?

[fasttense]

6. He reminded me of Ross Perot

He was direct and willing to state the truth. Though I found Tweety's pandering on MSNBC to be annoying. I really found Kucinich to be quite inspiring too.

[UnrepentantUnitarian]

12. I Posted a Little Tribute to "Mike, the radical"...

...over at my Unitarian Universalist message board. A longtime UU, Sen. Gravel expresses the best of the "radical spirit," not just in religion but also in politics and life in general. While it's not necessary for me (or anyone), to agree with him on everything he says, to me that all-too-rare, "nothing to lose" spirit of candor and sincerity deserves respect and even encouragement.

Here's the other post, if you're interested...

http://faithofthefree.informe.com/viewtopic.php?t=226

Ron

[Cha]

49. I tried the link and

it said.."cannot connect to server". I tried to read what you wrote about Mike Gavel. :)

[Rhiannon12866]

66. The link worked for me and I read your post, well done!

Thanks for sharing this with us. I like Mike Gravel a lot, too...:hi:

[JackintheGreen]

7. I love the guy

but did anybody else notice that he shaved the walrus 'stache that made him look vaguely like John Bolton? Or did he do that a while ago?

[zanne]

8. WOW!

From your lips to God's ears, Mike Gravel!

[TwilightGardener]

9. You know, you can be honest, or you can be unhinged--

And you can have a different opinion, or you could just be wrong. He was unhinged AND wrong. He should not have been given a microphone and a forum--that was just embarrassing.

[garybeck]

10. wa?

what exactly was wrong about what he said? I didn't see the whole debate but that clip on CR, I agreed with everything he said. and what's wrong with "shooting from the hip" if you actually give a shit?

[Dhalgren]

15. From the clip that I saw, he wasn't wrong about anything...

[TwilightGardener]

22. We don't have any enemies??? I guess 3000 of our fellow citizens

being vaporized on 9/11 is not an indication of an enemy, right? I guess we should stop trying to convince North Korea and Iran to stop developing or maintaining a nuclear arsenal--they are only going to use them for peace, huh? I guess our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are succumbing to IED's that "friends" of ours have set. Get real. Biden was right about the use of force.

[Dhalgren]

23. With "Democrats" like you, who needs Republicans...

[originalpckelly]

24. If the terrorists follow us home, we'll fight them.

Our lives are no less or more valuable than any soldiers'. It is not more acceptable that 3,000 soldiers have died and not 3,000 more civilians.

[MedleyMisty]

28. How many thousands of Iraqi citizens have we killed?

9/11 was years ago and it was one terrorist attack, and it may or may not have been allowed to happen by our own government. There's enough of a question there to not be so quick to judge that it was carried out by "towelheads who hate us for our freedumbs".

We're occupying Iraq and Afghanistan. If someone invaded the US and occupied us, what would you do? If we leave, then our soldiers won't be there to be killed by the IEDs.

And we need to start getting rid of our own nukes if we expect other people to get rid of theirs. If your father smoked two packs a day but told you not to smoke, would you listen to him? "Do as I say, not as I do." does not work. Maybe, "Hey, I'm getting rid of my nukes. Do you want to join me and work together for peace?" would.

[TwilightGardener]

31. LOL! We'll NEVER totally get rid of our nukes. Mutually assured destruction

is what keeps the world safe--that is reality. So far we have been pretty dang trustworthy with our arsenal (sorry, Hiroshima and Nagasaki). I'm sure all the nuclear nations of the world will completely disarm if we go first--NOT!!!

Edit to say--as the wife of a serviceman, anyone who kills our soldiers is our enemy--I will never be convinced otherwise.

[Solon]

39. Even when we are the aggressors? n/t

[Pastiche423]

58. How arrogant of you

The almost 3,000 people that died on September 11, 2001 came fron 62 different countries .

If yu are going to spout off about something, why not get your facts straight?

[roguevalley]

62. Gravel is the first Alaskan I voted for here. Personally, I don't intend

to vote for war mongers. I want diplomats and leaders. Mike just says out loud what all of us want said and does it in public without fear. Read up on him. Embarrassing? Not by a mile. GO, MIKE!

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

18. LOL, welcome to DU!

:hi: MKJ

[TwilightGardener]

26. Been here a few months, but thanks!

:hi:

[NoSheep]

21. Wrong about what? Unhinged? He was pissed and so am I.

People are DYING!!!!!!!!!!!! The time for being polite is over. He spoke from his gut not a script. I like that. An honest man I'd say.

[TwilightGardener]

25. You know what? I'm an honest person, I often speak from the gut,

I don't follow a script--none of that necessarily makes me presidential material. And don't start that "People are DYING" hysteria--you have to start living in the real world. No one is going to stage a big "rescue" in Iraq to suddenly pull our soldiers out--it doesn't work that way. The war will end, responsibly, when an ELECTABLE Democrat takes the WH (if not before), and we will still maintain a presence in Iraq afterward. Last night was apparently a clash of Leftist Fantasy and Centrist Reality, and thank God reality will rule.

[NoSheep]

34. We disagree.

[TwilightGardener]

35. That's what makes the world go round--

:pals:

[NoSheep]

36. Indeed.

:patriot:

[NoSheep]

63. Check it out if you feel like it.

http://www.gravel2008.us/?q=node/271

[The Count]

40. He spoke for me, as DK did on the impeachment thing. he also smacked Tweety

like a maestro. Love the guy!
he is absolutely right about "all on the table". It terrifies me too.

[lse7581011]

If This is Unhinged!

I'm all for it!

[Justyce]

11. He was awesome.

[Dhalgren]

14. He is hard not to like. He has some Libertarian ideas on taxing and such,

but that is not very important to me. I like his manner and his honesty. I like that he is against this stupid, bloody war and makes no bones about it. He doesn't want to start pulling out troops next year, he wants to pull them out right now. I gotta' say, I like what I hear. When he said that all the troops who had died so far had died in vain, he was absolutely right. And when he said the only thing worse than a soldier dying in vain was more soldiers dying in vain, he was absolutely right. When he said that "all options on the table" was code-speak for preemptive nuclear and or military attack, he was absolutely right.

I am only going to support a candidate who wants the immediate withdrawal of American forces from Iraq. I am only going to support a candidate who says military/nuclear options are off the table in all diplomatic endeavors

[garybeck]

16. I almost cried when he said that

the only thing worse that the troops dying in vein, is more troops dying in vein. It really hit me!

but i'm interested in more info on the other stuff, like you said his libertarian tax ideas... does that mean a flat tax? that would suck. taxes should be steeper (more heavily on the wealthy) not flatter. any more info on that?

[Dhalgren]

20. He is pushing some sort of repeal of income taxes and the

establishment of a "progressive" sales tax. I am not sure about how this would work. The reason this tax-talk doesn't matter much to me is that this is a representative capitalist oligarchy form of government we have here in this country. The working class/peasantry will always get the short end of things and the wealthy class will always be cared for. The most we can hope for is to elect oligarchs to office who are humane, and fair-minded, with a genuine concern of the citizenry. Beyond that, it would take a peasant uprising to make any real changes and I don't think the peasants in this country are capable of it.

Heres Gravel's website http://www.gravel2008.us

:hi:

[Mind_your_head]

29. Found this on another website about Gravel - interesting I thought

Mike Gravel demonstrated great courage as a United States Senator and -- unlike Hillary Clinton -- played an important role in ending a costly failed war. Here is the link to Mike Gravel's web site, missing from the MSNBC web page at this time: http://www.gravel2008.us

In 1971, Senator Mike Gravel waged a successful one-man filibuster for five months that forced the Nixon administration to cut a deal, effectively ending the draft in the United States. He is most prominently known for his release of the Pentagon Papers, the secret official study that revealed the lies and manipulations of successive U.S. administrations that misled the country into the Vietnam War.

Senator Gravel seeks an immediate and orderly withdrawal of troops from Itraq followed by aggressive diplomacy Senator Gravel wants to eliminate the income tax and replace it with a progressive national sales tax - Fair Tax. Senator Gravel wants to empower Americans and turn every citizen into a lawmaker by enacting a national initiative. Senator Gravel wants to enact a national, universal, single-payer, not-for-profit U.S. healthcare system. For more information, go to: http://www.gravel2008.us

http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/26/169201.aspx

Here's a bit more about Gravel's role in the 'Pentagon Papers':

Most, but not all of the Pentagon Papers were given ("leaked") to Neil Sheehan of The New York Times in early 1971 by a former State Department official Daniel Ellsberg, with his friend Anthony Russo assisting in copying them. The Times began publishing excerpts as a series of articles on June 13. <1> Controversy and lawsuits followed. On June 29, U.S. Senator Mike Gravel of Alaska entered 4,100 pages of the Papers into the record of his subcommittee on Buildings and Grounds. These portions of the Papers were subsequently published by Beacon Press. <2>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers

[russian33]

47. oh geez...

"Mike Gravel demonstrated great courage as a United States Senator and -- unlike Hillary Clinton -- played an important role in ending a costly failed war"

Hillary Clinton can singlehandedly end this war? Was he debating Sen.Clinton only, were there no other senators present? Why not 'unlike Chris Dodd' or 'unlike Barak Obama'?

[Mind_your_head]

51. To be honest, I didn't really notice the Hillary slam when I posted this

I guess my eyeballs sort of glossed over that part. I was more focused Gravel's proven history of ACTION like the one-man filibuster for five months and it's impact on the Nixon Administration and the Vietnam War, his current ideas about taxes and health care, and his proven action and role in the Pentagon Papers. I didn't know these things about Senator Gravel.

The snip I posted was short, informative, and interesting - so that's why I posted it. I can't speak about the original author's motives or feelings about putting the Hillary slam in there. I assure you, it was inadvertent on my part that I copied it here (i.e., I didn't intend to subtlely slam Hillary).

[SlipperySlope]

46. I think that libertarians generally are very honest

I'm sure there are some bad apples, but I think libertarians in general tend to be very honest.

Their political position tends to based on logic and reason, less so on spin or emotion. I think that leads them to be pretty "straight shooters" when they talk. One of their achilles heels is that they will tend to follow their chain of logic to positions that are politically intractable.

Anyway, just my opinion.

[Rhiannon12866]

17. He's a former senator from Alaska, and I've heard him speak before, but I watch a lot of news.

He was criticized by Brian Williams during the debate because he said that he doesn't care if he is elected, so Williams asked him why he's bothering to run. I think that Williams missed the point. I think what Gravel meant was that he knows that he doesn't stand a chance, not that he doesn't care. He obviously does care, but isn't in this for self-promotion, and cares enough that he wants to get his message out there, and participating in this gives him a national forum and to have some influence, same as Kucinich, who I've always found inspiring. With the two of them bringing up issues that need to be addressed, the others will be forced to address them, as well, and that can only be a good thing.:-)

Thanks for the link.:hi:

[JoDog]

30. That was my interpretation as well

and in the post-debate interview he basically admitted that he doesn't stand a snowball's chance, but was running because there are important issues he thinks should be added to the national debate.

He sounded like a man who has nothing to lose and was truly there on principle. He was saying things a lot of people I know have been thinking. When he noted that the congresspeople on the stage made him embarassed to be a Democrat, and they should all stop pussyfooting around the president and use their power, I said, "heck yeah!"

[Rhiannon12866]

32. I agree and the fact that he's a former senator means there's no pressure on him.

Dennis has been saying many of the same things since 2003 and his early and consistent criticism of this war has led to accusations of being "unpatriotic," and other slurs. Now, as it turns out, he was the one who was right... I've always liked Kucinich's message, but because he often stood alone, he was marginalized and just not taken seriously. However, with the horror show that this war has become and with Gravel bringing up the same issues, the other candidates are going to have to address these head-on or look foolish or wishy-washy if they don't.

I was glad that Dennis decided to run again, though I know he doesn't stand a chance, because it gives him a national forum to raise some very important issues that might otherwise be avoided or overlooked because they're tough issues for any candidate to take a stand on. The MSM picks apart every single thing that anyone says and a chance remark or something misspoken can spin out of control very quickly, as in the cases of Howard Dean or John Kerry, so candidates feel they have to be extremely careful, can't take a real stand on a lot of things, in case what they say comes back to bite them.

But, as you said, Gravel has nothing to lose, and everything to gain, by forcing a national dialog on things like the war, and health care. And I applaud this courage and his effort, since he's not going to be rewarded for it in the short term, since he'll be criticized and called a "liberal" (Oh, no! Not that!), nor the long term, like a spot on the ticket or winning re-election. I thought what he said was great, too, since a lot of what he said expressed my thoughts, as well, and it's rare in politics to finally hear that...:D

[NoSheep]

19. I liked him too. Reminded me of what I liked about Johnson.

This does NOT mean I think Johnson was perfect so don't start.

[TNOE]

27. He was Awesome

breath of fresh air

Maybe should run with Kucinich as VP!

[Individualist]

33. He's the voice of courage and integrity.

When he made the comment about the military industrial complex, I stood up and cheered. With the exception of Kucinch, none of the other milquetoast candidates would have dared state the obvious as Gravel did. He's a mad as hell candidate, and that's what I like about him.

[Rosemary2205]

37. He was the comedic relief of the night.

I liked him. There's something refreshing about a guy that can't win, has nothing to lose, and just tosses the real thing out there. At one point he said

"What is the matter with you people" - pointing to the other candidates regarding refunding the war. Hubby and I both busted out laughing. -- Thank Gawd someone had the courage to say it.

[The Count]

44. You and W must laugh at the same jokes...like nuking people and death

Interesting to see how even here people are so conditioned to react against truth.

[Rosemary2205]

67. Whatever

:eyes:

Your response has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

[The Count]

38. Thanks for this! I missed it! I fell for him when he smacked Tweety afterwards

he passed the bill that stopped the draft and had a lot to do with stopping nuclear proliferation. A great guy!

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

41. Gore/Gravel nt

[The Count]

43. Obviously, he is the real Mr Smith goes to Washington

It illuminates how phony the rest of them are.

[bigwillq]

45. He just likes to yell

is all that I got out of FGravel...sure he said some things that I really agreed with but he put on a "show" as my man would say when I throw a hissy fit.


No one will take Gravel seriosuly. Yes, he did have some good ideas but he seemed more like a clown to me than someone I could actually consider voting for.

[BlueStater]

48. Senator from Alaska for 12 years (1969-1981)

Beyond that, I don't know anything about him but I did like what he had to say last night.

[Forkboy]

52. Great words...horrible delivery.

Unfortunately it's not what you say but how you say it these days.

[slowry]

54. Hm that's odd. I felt the opposite.

His honesty and clarity reminded me of Richard Feynman, of all people :o.

[Forkboy]

57. WOW....now that's a compliment!

:)

[lse7581011]

61. I Agree! Great Delivery!

said what needed to be said to an audience that needed to hear it!

[Morgana LaFey]

53. He's got

No money

No prospect of getting any money

No "establishment" support

No hope, no chance

No kidding.


I like him too. A lot. This wasn't the first time I saw him, but if you did a search you can see me answering "Well, who's YOUR candidate" with his name.

[Rhiannon12866]

64. He may stand a chance of getting more donations as more people hear of him.

At least that's what he said he hoped when I saw an interview with him awhile ago. The first debate was a great showcase and now he'll be on a lot more people's radar screens. I like him a lot, too. :-)

[AliceBlitzstein]

55. Gravel was great

how come I've never heard of him before?

[PaDem]

56. too bad his tax proposals are ludicrous.........

otherwise I like him a lot.

[seasat]

60. Yeah the "fair tax" is an idea that Neil Boortz promotes.

Every reasonable economist that has looked at it came to the same conclusion, it soaks the middle class. Most of the studies point out that a 23% rate will not provide the necessary income to run government. The actual rate to maintain the same level of revenue could be as high as 60%. The original authors of the "fair tax" proposal even acknowledge that it puts a greater burden on middle income folks.

When you combine a national sales tax with state sales taxes it becomes even more regressive. A better idea is to keep the current income tax system but simplfy it. However, that is a hard one to do since so many special interests are involved in promoting specific deductions. A could never support Gravel with him backing a Neil Boortz tax idea.