There Is No Such Thing as A "Pendulum" In American Politics. Be Alarmed, We Are Moving Rightward.

[David Zephyr]

Like many of you, I have witnessed the continual, steady rise of the radical right-wing throughout my life. It has had its bumps along the road, with a few setbacks, but whether it is our tax code, militarism, corporatism, freedom of the press, or civil liberties, the great strides made under the New Deal have been eroded methodically to a point that, frankly, is truly troubling.

Someone here, in good spirit, replied to one of my recent posts as "fatalistic". Well, at some point, those of us who have lived through this neo-fascist paradigm shift in our nation's political structure, simply begin to speak from our hearts. We are not frustrated. We are not just another opinion on a blog. We can see the conclusion of where this is heading...and it isn't pretty.

None other than Noam Chomsky wrote last week that the teabagging madness is nothing to simply ridicule. Noam, a chief custodian of language and the construct that it holds on us as individuals and in groupthink, is a man not given to hyperbole and yet he left the impression that the growing anger and hatred seeded deep within the right-wing lunacy we see with the teabaggers, which of course is fueled by corporate money and puppeteers, is something ominous and dangerous and not to be taken lightly.

This steady march to the right began long before most of us were even born. From the moment that Franklin Roosevelt died, the crowd that hated him has wasted no time to return this nation back to its former status where aristocratic privilege was carved into the laws and enforced with a cruel boot. Just look at the tax code that FDR left us and compare it with the bone-crushing one we have now and it becomes clear have far the paradigm has shifted.

One of the many big lies that Americans have swallowed and hold dear is this false public myth that there is some mystical "pendulum" in American politics that swings back and forth from the Left to the Right correcting itself and always coming back to a proper balance. Nothing could possibly be more untrue. The small glimmers of progressive "victories" since FDR left us are the fool's gold that permit liberals to see a false silver lining in the dark clouds.

It's hard to face, but the sad truth is that the American people are just too easily manipulated. Those of us who watched with our eyebrows raised to the tops of our foreheads saw just how gullible our fellow citizens are when they were whipped up into a frenzy of fear and rage to invade Iraq, a nation that posed no harm to us whatsoever, but a nation whose leader somehow was almost magically morphed from being Saddam Hussein into being Osama bin Laden. That really happened...and it should give every American pause.

Fox News, which now has a Saudi Prince as their third largest stockholder, is the feverish workhorse of neo-fascist propaganda that has successfully intimidated every news organization in the nation. Fox sets the national dialog and the rest of the "media" reacts in knee-jerk response. And like Pavlov's dogs, millions (yes, millions) of American people bark on cue now.

If a large number of Americans can be tricked into the confused belief that Saddam Hussein was the same person as Osama bin Laden, then it's just as easy to blame the Democrats for all the havoc the Republicans created for eight years. Ask a teabagger about who caused the current Great Recession, the current unemployment crisis, the current foreclosure nightmare and our two wars and they will respond with barks that the bogeyman liberal elite class did all of this. If Osama bin Laden can be morphed into Saddam Hussein, then George W. Bush can be morphed into Barack Obama.

Fox News' newest employee, Sarah Palin, who with her fellow co-workers Glen Beck and Bill O'Reilly, is doing her job for her bosses. Her promotions or demotions depend on her performance for "the company". She can be replaced and her character destroyed if she deviates from their agenda. Palin didn't create the teabaggers, the company she works for did. She's just one of their performers on the big record label.

If there's anything that David Zephyr could beg of progressives, it is this: reboot your thinking and your language: there is no pendulum, folks.

[Mari333]

1. if they are that stupid they deserve what they get

including a completely bankrupt country collapsing all around them. I just gave up on caring anymore.

[David Zephyr]

4. There are a lot of weary progressives that feel the same way.

To rob a line from The Man of La Mancha: we're robbed of our anger and left with despair.

[Enthusiast]

92. I grow weary, that's a fact.

WE have a majority in the House and Senate and the Presidency but one would think Democrats/Liberals were the scourge of the earth, if we listen to the TV talking heads on every channel, that is.

The country threw the GOP out in 2006 and 2008 yet my TV insists that we are a center right country. I don't think the most recent elections support their little sound bite.

[maleficentia]

111. Democrats don't have a majority in congress,

actual progressives haven't had a majority that I can remember. Count the number of conservative "Dems" in the Senate, I doubt progressives could number in the 30's much less get anywhere near that mythical 60 votes everyone has been touting. And people still sit puzzled when progressive policies fail time and time again.

[Enthusiast]

114. So what are you saying?

Are you suggesting that the electorate figured they were intentionally voting for conservatives when they voted in all these Democrats?

[dflprincess]

134. I think the electorate were victims of bait and switch

Many voters who do not necessarily pay as much attention as we political geeks do, thought they were voting for Democrats who still supported ideas of the New Deal and Great Society.

Even those of us who pay attention got suckered by a lot of the candidates who talk a good line but act differently.

[polpilot]

147. It's time Americans got a 'president of their peers...maybe less' It's Palin's Time.

Retarded Trailer Trash have waited too long at their shot at 'governance.'

I'm Ready. Bring it on! 'THE DECLINE OF AMERICA: FINAL CHAPTER'
HOW YA LIKE DEM APPLES?

[maleficentia]

149. Not exactly

I'm saying the electorate has been given a choice between a conservative and a wing nut, and they chose the conservative (with the D next to their name on the ballot possibly). It would be nice in my lifetime to see some progressives more like Bernie Sanders(I) actually in the Democratic party instead of the right wingers like Ben Nelson. Yes, Ben would be better than Sarah Palin, or Malkin, but to think progressive ideas are represented in Congress is laughable with the majority of those holding office now. Our party does need to go to the center, but it would have to head way left to get there. The pendulum bounces back right off of some force before it ever gets to the left side of the spectrum. Anyway, I've just gotten so tired of hearing about being in the majority and getting nothing done. Those RW Dems in the senate don't represent me or the Democratic platform for that matter, so ignoring the labels, the right wing has had a majority since Regan.

[butterfly77]

8. I feel the same way some days...

a lot of the so called Dems are really repubs who did or said nothing throughout last year and they wait till a situation is out of hand then they begin calling for everyone to jump on board. They let the Teabaggers get out of hand with their lies and now we spend everyday trying to refute the lies.

Most of the Dems are just as bad as the Repubs they are in it for the money.. When I see these so called Dems on televisions supposedly arguing the Democrats argument they are so subtle that you can tell they don't really give a damn or they are really republicons.

I am getting so tired of hearing what the President has to do and how he has to say it. The President has had to say everything over and over and over and the media pretends they don't get it but, Dumbass Bush stood their and couldn't speak plain english but he was suppose to be speaking clearly for all to understand and he didn't even give an explaination they just accepted whatever he and Cheney said,I wonder why that is wouldn't anyone like to take a guess?

[calimary]

12. Yeah, but the problem is, if they get what they deserve, they'll have brought that

misery down on ALL of us - including those of us who fought against it and DON'T deserve it.

I keep waiting for that fantasy pendulum to swing back. And I've reached the same conclusion David Z has. I don't think there is such a pendulum anymore. Not when there are so many wealthy, powerful, heavy thumbs pressing down on one side of the scale anymore. And it scares me, because I don't see any way to reverse it (especially with the last Supreme Court ruling on corporate buying of elections).

[David Zephyr]

16. calimary, the impact of that single SCOTUS ruling you mention can not be calculated

I'm glad you mentioned it here in this thread because that single ruling has put the money of a very few over the lives of hundreds of millions. It pulled out the concrete below our feet which is what the lawsuit was intended to do.

[calimary]

33. I'm afraid to even try to calculate what that ruling means.

Maybe that's why I feel so bleak about everything these days. And I don't see anything or anybody really fighting back. Not sure what anemic little protests that MoveOn.org and People for the American Way and ThinkProgress.org and the Daily Kos and other progressive groups can mount. All the energy and public show is on the other side. And what does our side do?

*When the DHS issues a report pointing to the rise of right-wing extremist groups as domestic terrorists and those same groups squawk like sick chickens in indignation, the DHS backs off.
*Obama wastes an entire year reaching out to people who only want to chop off his hand when he does, then he spends one day answering their questions and getting good press and MAYBE reminding people of the towering intellect and measured response that we all voted for and had such faith in, and then that's that, the GOP is rapped on the knuckles, and they go back to their old shit and Obama does nothing to lower the boom.
*Talk starts to move toward "health care reform is dead" and WHERE'S THE FIERY OPPOSITION?????
*NOTHING is done about the Supreme Court. If I were running things, I'd have started a demonizing campaign against our Idiot-of-a-Supreme-Court-Chief-Justice the minute after he botched the Presidential Oath of Office. IMMEDIATELY. And I'd have kept the drumbeat going in perpetuity. He had from the day after the General Election in early November til a few minutes into the afternoon of January 20th to memorize the Presidential Oath of Office, knowing full well the colossally historic inauguration this was gonna be, and to whom he'd be administering it. And he botched it on that day. Proof-positive he's an IDIOT. Of the First Order. We've had asshole groups actually out, in public, advocating prayers for the death of Supreme Court Justices who tend to rule more progressively. And the push back to that is _______________? We could have had this conservative-slanting Roberts court softened up a little by now and tarnished, the "luster" of the conservative voting block thus tarnished, also. Has anybody started on the offense - and made any sort of definitive moves toward taking their tax-exempt status away, or at least challenging it forcefully so maybe they'll be put on defense for a change?
*WHY isn't Obama out there on the stump every week somewhere in America?
*WHY aren't we putting the highest priority on reforming broadcasting, and AT LEAST reinstating the limits on corporate ownership of media outlets - so a handful of giant conglomerates can dictate the public discourse and therefore public policy?
*WHY haven't wealthy Democrats bought up every radio station in America that comes available for purchase, especially as Clear Channel and other megaliths find they have to unload bunches of stations because they're so far in debt? We could have a solid, and powerful, and omnipresent radio network that could carry Air America-type programming on HUNDREDS of stations, not 60 or 70. I subscribe to Talkers magazine. You think it's not enraging and humiliating to leaf through those pages, conservative after conservative after conservative after conservative and conservative network after conservative network after conservative network. Our side will NEVER be heard - will NEVER get the chance to provide another view on a broad-enough platform to make any difference.
*WHY has nothing been done to roll back the seemingly permanent trend started by corporate personhood?

I was just scolded in another thread for blaming the DNC when Massachusetts voters chose Scott Brown over Martha Coakley because she took a vacation and Brown went out and worked for it, thus eviscerating her double-digit lead. Well, yeah, the DNC is to blame for not paying attention - was there NO ONE in all those legions of pollsters and analysts and party strategists and people who are supposed to be watching the horizon and the storm forecasts who could have WARNED Martha Coakley to get off her ass and fight for it? And what's with the people of Massachusetts who allowed themselves to be lulled into a nice nap by Brown and his nice truck and his aw-shucks schtick because "well, he stayed around and worked for it while she ran off on vacation". Never mind. Do you value what you know she's stood for versus what he stood for, and how she's more aligned than he is with what you believe in? Oh that's not important at all?

I'm alarmed that people are laughing off sarah palin. She should NOT be under-estimated, any more than the ability of the American electorate to be gullible and easily-misled should be under-estimated. That minority of gullible, easily-misled voters who are in love with her will stand for 20 hours in 20 feet of snow to vote for her, while all the smug mainstreamers or progressives who just know it can't happen and that she's a joke who has no chance will stay home in their nice warm comfort and blow off the election because their candidate has it in the bag against a crackpot like palin. And guess who'll be up there taking the hopey-changey presidential oath the following January, you betcha.

Sorry to be such a Gloomy Gus today. I just see so much at the moment to make me fearful for our country's future.

[David Zephyr]

64. Wow. You are channeling my thoughts and mood.

I'm gloomy because I see our options limited now. So much of this has to do with the media consolidation that has been going on for a long time, but that really took hold with Michael Powell during the last 8 years. People are what they read and see. And let's face it: our electorate is just not that bright.

By the way, clear back in November I saw Sarah Palin as a real threat and not just a joke. She is dangerous:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/David%20Zephyr/43

[Mithreal]

76. It's not just about how bright or how brainwashed and it's more than just the media.

Dem politicians all the way to the top regularly reinforce conservative worldview. Listen to Obama's speeches, they are often heavy in rightwing framing.

There can only be one party of change at a time. The MA election should have reinforced the idea that people wanted change. Predictably instead it strengthened the DLC's agenda, moving the party further to the right.

Those bright and not so bright citizens you talked about don't have a lot of choices. They can choose one crazy party that promises a return to the wonder years of the dark ages or a party that is only half the ass it once was. The electorate is brighter than the folks in DC, the media, or we give them credit. I believe in the American people.

[Enthusiast]

94. No. The reason Obama's speeches are

heavy in rightwing framing is entirely because of the RW controlled media. It is only conservative worldview the citizens of this country hear and can relate to. It is completely because of the one-sided media.

Let me ask you this. How many times have you heard anyone refute the talking point, the claim, that the country is "center right"? Okay, never. Yet the country just elected the traditionally liberal party overwhelmingly. This is the effect of a well thought out and executed propaganda effort.

Propaganda is the first step, the Nazis knew this.

[tomp]

124. you mean the traditionally "liberal" party.

the democratic party traditionally has collaborated with the republican party against the interests of the vast majority of americans.

here's how the game is played: pretend to be liberal, get elected, continue pretending to be liberal while collaborating with the conservatives in favor of the rich.

the democratic party would rather lose to the republicans than to actually be progressive.

[Enthusiast]

129. But the electorate still voted

for those the M$M told them were liberal, the Democrats, whether they were or not. So, the sentiments of the American people decidedly were not "center right" when they voted in 2006 and 2008.

[Mithreal]

155. Center right means nothing if you just look at issues like HCR.

The majority of people across our spectrum wanted a strong public option.

This is not just HCR. Someone posted here at least once a table that showed support for progressive idea very high among Dems and significantly high among Republicans across all of the issues. I talk to people across the spectrum. The radical center, Third Way types are the ones so interested in where they think Americans are on a seesaw as some sort of lame justification. Looking at issues, Progressives represent the overwhelming majority.

[Enthusiast]

200. I agree with you!

The public option has huge support. The M$M & PTB won't acknowledge the loss of support for the HCR bill is because of the loss of the public option. They know it but it will not be repeated.

[conturnedpro09]

178. Sure they were.

Americans were pissed at Bush, the war Iraq, and the perversely corrupt Republican Party in 2006; they were not begging for a hard-left progressive transformation of the government.

In 2008, I actually did foolishly believe that the America people were at long last crying out for progressive governance. Instead, it was all just a repeat of 2006. A center-left nation we, sadly, are not. Obama's conservative-sounding speeches + red-faced anger at Bush & the GOP + Iraq + Katrina + the Great Recession + Palin's craziness + McCain's age + Obama's deliberately centrist "purple America" campaign = the results of the 2008 election.

It harms the Democratic Party when we tell ourselves (and try to force ourselves to believe) that the great majority of the American voting public is Dennis Kucinich left. It's ludicrous. In America, progressives win when we communicate and present ourselves intelligently to our target audience, which unfortunately is a very slow-learning market.

[Enthusiast]

202. One of the issues that

concerned the American electorate was health care reform. And polls show huge support for the public option. Another issue for the electorate was to end these wars.

No one claimed there was massive support for a "hard left". But the American people are far more left on some issues than you Republicans want to acknowledge.

[FiveGoodMen]

167. "the democratic party would rather lose to the republicans than to actually be progressive"

That's what the past year has demonstrated.

We might as well face it.

[Mithreal]

170. "The left" has nowhere else to go, but corporate money does.

[David Zephyr]

211. Ain't that the truth!

.

[Mithreal]

154. That makes no sense. Look at his books as well, blame the media too?

The media doesn't determine Obama's choice of words, phrases, framing. Maybe you could argue that idea better but as stated it was unpersuasive.

Many talking points don't get refuted. How can anyone use that as the basis for making a point?

The people elected a party that offered change and hope.

Usually what you write makes more sense to me. Please explain what you mean if you think I misunderstand your post.

[juno jones]

184. I wouldn't say that most of them aren't bright.

Some of them amaze me everyday with the intelligence they can exhibit.

I suspect some who don't participate aren't really wired for politics, some are who do are horribly mis-informed, and as many have dropped out over time. Most are too busy hustling their livelihoods to have time to appreciate the nuance that is not being presented on mainstream TV.

Of course, some are just racist shits that will vote against anything if personally threatened with diversity and expanding horizons.

I dropped out for a long time. I wasn't really surprised to come back sometime around the 2000 elections to see that things had not changed in my absence.

I do agree about the pendulum thing. And I definitely agree about Palin. Some of us have been warning about her since she got that nom. She, she's dumber than a rock and cain't speechify for shit. That high-pitched sing-song she speaks in-like the church lady is another example of the infantilization that some women suffer. I bet she still says 'poo-poo' and has some incoherent 'wa-wa-po-po' word she uses to decribe her vagina. That Tebow wench on the superbowl commercials yesterday had the same inflection. Cult members are renowned for that kind of speech pattern.

By rights she belongs in a pooh sweatshirt, stalking Walmart. But she isn't. Somebody wants her in. Recent history teaches us that W was shit as a pol, shitty at speaking and dumber than average. Everyone though he hadn't the proverbial chance in hell. However, Diebold made sure we had his ass for 8 years. And we have discovered recently that no matter who's elelcted, the train just keeps running. If we have elections by more violent means than ballot in the future because the individual vote/ballot has become whatever the immortal and god-given royal corporations deem it to be, gods save us, but I will not be surprised.

Or not. Given enough stress and a really good TV lineup, outer reality become irrelavant to those who aren't being persecuted by the new regime.

[Mithreal]

74. That's not gloomy, that's a strong dose of reality. Very well said.

[Eric Condon]

75. I'm always amazed at idealistic DUers who say this country is basically liberal at heart

Maybe it's just that I live in the asshole of the Bible Belt, but as far as I can tell, this country is virulently, sickeningly, vociferously conservative. To the point that I have zero illusions that things are ever going to get better. These idiots will sympathize with Ken Lay over Al Sharpton just because one of them is white and the other is black. There is no getting through to these people, and this kind of mentality is straight-up encouraged in our society. As much as Americans like to think they're on the side of the little guy, they're not. Americans love bullies, not underdogs. And until people grow some sense of basic human decency and compassion, nothing is going to change. And until we experience a society-wide awakening that turns us away from that kind of thinking, then still, nothing is going to change. And until TPTB allow their groveling subjects to be exposed to any sort of truly anti-authoritarian thinking, then NONE of this is ever going to take place.

[Mithreal]

80. Right, and that's why President Obama didn't win and why

Dems were unable to take back both houses of Congress.

There is a very good graphic, maybe someone can repost, I couldn't find it. It shows across the political spectrum support for Progressive solutions on maybe a couple dozen different issues.

I worked as a teacher in a small rural town in NC that was very much a a part of the south. I also worked in an urban high school, another in the bible belt, that in the spring before I was hired had a race riot. The whole time I was there tensions and violence were high. Much of my family comes from Kentucky and Michigan and I have known conservatives and the way they think all my life.

Americans loving bullies? There is some truth to that. I think we respect and reward people who can defend themselves. As to underdogs, a lot of them are not pushovers either.

People have basic human decency and compassion. Look at average Americans responses to disasters like New Orleans and Haiti and those are just the bigger opportunities. Unsolicited advice, I know, but you may need to look for some new people to hang out with. I have a strong suspicion you are self selecting a certain group of people to befriend that are not really nurturing your better side.

Nothing going to change? Come on now. Individuals are creating change personally and sharing it with others, taking little steps, but most don't really know where to begin. You may be talking about big change and that is going to take a lot of individuals who are just crazy enough to believe they can change their small part of the world and given time, some successes, may eventually have opportunity to change a larger part.

I would recommend you get out of the belt if it feels so constricting. America is bigger than where you live. But hey, why not check out DFA? Get yourself some tools and a lil organization and get to work. You have the power to subvert the brainwashing, I just think it is going to take a change in your attitude. Maybe you just need to experience a few successes of your own at creating change in a small way. Anyway, I know this was a lil rambling. You hold much more potential power than your posts implies you possess. I know, obnoxious, I must sound, like I said, tired and rambling but I wanted to respond. Take it easy.

[Enthusiast]

96. If the country is not liberal, or

close to liberal, how is it that the country elected Democrats overwhelmingly in 2006 and 2008? I mean, these were the most recent elections.

Or, are you buying into the RW media talking point that the election of a single Independent to Ted Kennedy's seat is a mandate for a return to Republican control?

[twitomy]

99. The country may be center right,

But not necessarily ideologically pure. There are enough voters who have no problem thowing
the party in power out if they think their job performance sucks, regardless of ideology. With that in mind, the Dems and OBama better shape up or they will ge gone 2010,2012

[Eric Condon]

142. The reason Dems won in those elections

was because voters' pocketbooks were hurting. That's the only thing that can get people to change course. The Chimp Administration was slaughtering Iraqi civilians, torturing prisoners, shredding the Constitution, and sacrificing US troops for absolutely nothing, and people still voted for them and the GOP in 2004. None of that was enough to make the morans realize these maniacs needed to be voted out. But no, when someone loses their McMansion because the economy tanks, THEN it's okay to throw the bums out.

That's my point. This kind of thinking is distinctly American. And of course, we all need to acknowledge the obvious: voting for Democrats doens't necessarily make someone "liberal, or close to liberal." Because being a Democrat in the first place certainly hasn't made too many Democratic politicians act liberal.

What I'm saying is that this country needs serious, sweeping society-wide changes to take place in terms of what our values are. It's going to take more than just Democrats hanging on by a thread to win another close election. Having Democrats in power does NOT translate into liberal ideology taking hold in American society. Maybe that was the case with someone like LBJ, but not now.

[defendandprotect]

157. 2004 was simply another steal --

As long as we are voting on computers, you had best begin to question every election --

all the way back to Nixon/Humphrey!!

It sounds like your problem has more to do with listening to right wing networks/radio

than thinking for yourself.

And -- is it possible that you don't know that Gore won in 2000 according to the press

consortium recount? 2000 was, of course, stolen. From the GOP-fascist rally to stop

the recount in Miami-Dade county to the Supreme Court decision putting Bush in the White

House.

Also, many think that Obama had such a HUGE win that it was a landslide -- but unreported.

And that we would have had at least another 24 members of Congress!!

Democrats aren't "liberal" now because they are owned by corporations -- which is the very

problem we are constantly discussing here at DU. Where have you been?

Corporate $$ doesn't buy liberals -- it buys people who will do their dirty work for them.

[Mithreal]

164. Your posts in this thread are like pictures with the blurry thumbprint

What you described really represents what you can see but is not the whole picture.

It's about our voting system and corporate influence more than this "sweeping society-wide changes." See what you want, you would probably say the same right back to me, fine.

[defendandprotect]

156. We hear a lot about Bible Belt mentality --

but much of the right wing religious movement is as faked as the T-baggers' movement.

Pay attention to what Dick Cheney said -- "We create the reality, you live with it" --

John Mitchell also told us that just before Watergate unfolded --

"This country is going to move so far to the right, it's going to make your head spin!"

Both of those statements were threats -- threats to our population, threats to our

democracy.

Yes . . . this is a liberal nation --

Noam Chomsky has explained it this way, i.e., that the elites are always polling to find

out what they need to know. All of those private polls indicate a hugely liberal America.

Even insofaras Americans understanding the Mexican's stake in America -- our taking of large

parts of Mexico . . .


Mexicans still refer to the "American Invasion of Mexico" --
where we "acquired" California, Texas, and New Mexico
Mexico originally refused $30 million for California and New Mexico --
And these lands -- after the WAR -- were purchased by the US for $15 million --
These vast lands eventually became New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Nevada, and Western Colorado

In 1853 -- we acquired Southern Arizona and Southern New Mexico
--------------


Chomsky further points to the reality that if this were a right wing nation, then the elites

wouldn't have to control our press, our publishing houses, our government, our govenrment

agencies -- they wouldn't have to buy government. They wouldn't have to buy our elected

officials. They wouldn't have to "buy" selected candidates and run them, making sure that

the only choices we had in candidates were those they gave us!


I'd also point to the computers which began coming in during the mid-1960's and the late-1960's.

The LARGE computers used by MSM began coming in during the mid-1960's. Until that time, MSM

could only report on official vote tallies. The LARGE computers gave them new powers --

the power to PREDICT and CALL elections. And in presidential races, the power to PREDICT and

CALL Electoral College Votes and thereby PREDICT and CALL the results for the presidency.

We simply saw that power reversed in 2000 when Jon Ellis/Fox News RECALLED Florida from Gore--

which other networks then also did. Later RECALLING Florida for Bush.


Most of us also know the illegitimate history of the individual computers we are voting on --

that they can easily be hacked. We saw in 2000, purges which kept tens of thousands of

legitimate voters in Florida from being able to vote. And, in 2004, very obvious and en plaine

air blocking of minorities at the polls.

Coincidentally, these computers began to come in just about the time America was passing

The Voting Rights Act!


If this were a right wing nation, then the right wing wouldn't have to STEAL elections --

But they do have to do all of these things in order to hold onto power --

And, even more so, we are here now because of almost 50 years of right wing political

violence which took one president from us, but also took our people's government from us.

And, our Democratic Party, as well!


If you want any more info on the right wing creating religious fanatacism either here

in America or throughout the ME, I'll be happy to supply it.

[Mithreal]

161. +1

:applause:

[Enthusiast]

93. No reason to be sorry.

You said exactly what I was thinking.

Media should be our primary focus. When Progressive groups ask me for donations, I think to myself, "What is the point? Every cent at our disposal should be focused on acquiring a voice in the media."

[defendandprotect]

158. Corporatism intends to frustrate the machinery of democracy . . . and

to frustrate and disillusion voters --

And it succeeds very well -- !!

[ChiciB1]

199. Ain't THAT The TRUTH And How VERY Sad! There Are Days That

make me sit and wonder and then wonder even more! I really think we only know the tip of the iceberg most of the time!

That's what's so very scary and what should have people FIGHTING BACK! Unfortunately, many won't fight because it doesn't seem to get much attention NOR any reaction!

And adding insult to injury is the fact that so many Democrats are complicit in the game!

:shrug: :grr: :nuke:

Yeah, I think we've been punked A LOT!

[DisgustedInMN]

117. There's much to be gloomy about, unfortunately.

There is a current of anger rippling through Middle American, with good reason. Since our supposed "leaders" aren't doing much to actually take ACTION in our best interests, but instead offer us pretty rhetoric and then capitulation to our (and their!) sworn enemies.

As Robert A Heinlein put it, through his character, Lazarus Long, "NEVER underestimate the power of human stupidity."

What fails to penetrate into the DLC types "brilliant strategies," is that the Teabaggers that they dismiss as if they are irrelevant, have legitimate grievances that NEED addressed. What they don't have, is the REAL information to know who and what is behind the problems they(we) are facing. They(we) see everything they(we) have worked our entire lives for, slipping away, and they(we) are powerless to stop it. Where they and we separate, is that they see "evil" government as the cause and we see responsible government as the solution.

So, Corporacrats dismiss BOTH The Tea Party and Progressives. But what they don't get, is that by doing so, they have sealed their own fate. There's a storm brewing, a big ugly fucking storm, and given the choice between fighting for the corporations or We the People...

[Mithreal]

172. DisgustedInMN, well said

:thumbsup:

[calimary]

190. See, my problem is - I no longer have faith in the effect of that big ugly storm brewing.

I no longer have faith in the majority of Americans reacting reasonably. I don't think they will. I think they'll fall back on what their new default position is - believing what they hear on Pox Noise and from palin and limbaugh and beck and the rest of the rabble. They can be counted on, I think, to side with the wrong people, against their own best interests. Hell, they've been voting that way for years. I just no longer have faith in the "common sense" of the American people. There isn't any common sense anymore. It's just all hate and anger and sore-loserman temper tantrums from legions of gullible, spoiled, arrogant, self-absorbed, arrested-development three-year-old hissy-fit types.

[defendandprotect]

223. It's not ever going to make sense to shuffle the

blame onto fellow citizens -- whether they are informed or underinformed.

That is exactly what the right wing works to have happen -- to divide us.

Palin and the T-baggers are fake -- and, yes, it frustrates me that even Olberman

has two nights in a row begun with Palin. Granted, correct what the right wing

is saying of her -- but don't run the film and give her more air time!

They've done the same in resurrecting Newt Gingrich from obscurity!

From what I've ever seen, there is only one way that the right wing rises --

and that's on political violence and we had 50 years of that en plaine air.

That is still unacknowledged in our "free press."

The GOP gave start up funds for the Christian Coalition -- Scaife and other wealthy

right wingers financed Dobson's organization -- and Bauer's organization.

Heritage and Cato and all the other right wing organizations are funded by the wealthy elites.

The T-baggers are a paid for creation of the right wing --

just as the GOP-sponsored fascist rally in Miami-Dade County in 2000 stopped the vote

counting!!

Not to mention the voting computers which are hackable -- and which coincidentally began

coming in about the time America was passing "The Voting Rights Act" -- !!

Was there ever a Southern Strategy, or were there only election steals?


PS: That's not to say that right wing propaganda doesn't work to confuse the public --

and work quite successfully, from Global Warming to Swiftboatings!

[ChiciB1]

133. David Always Has GREAT Posts, So I Like You Feel The Gloomy Gus

thing! I try NOT to, I try NOT to listen to all the CRAP, but I'm addicted and keep coming back for more!

It's driving me crazy because I'm a LIBERAL from the 70's, when activism seemed so "correct" and we KNEW we were doing it for OUR COUNTRY!

Today with all the DLC, DINO, Blue Dogs and a LOUD group here at DU who want to "go along, to get along" I feel, well... kind of out in LEFT FIELD!

But, I stand on what I believe in and simply CAN'T fall on a sword, just because a name has a "D" behind it!

I too am VERY WORRIED and it fills me with FEAR TOO!

:scared:

[defendandprotect]

159. Obviously, the right wing propaganda is succeeding in making you

lose faith in yourself and our ability to change things --

that's what it's supposed to do!!

As we can see from this past year, doing the same thing every election year

is not going to pull us out of this fascist spiral --

The longer this goes on the worse things will get -- not only for us but for our children!

[ChiciB1]

201. Hey There! Yep, I Do Let It Get Me Down, But I'm So Sick Of MSM

for the most part, and trying to fight is like spitting in the wind!

While some here may not think so, I feel that Dylan Ratigan is "trying" to make some noise like Schultz, Olberman and Maddow are. Tweety is really one of us for the most part, but there are some days he talks out of both sides. I do find that he is very knowledgeable and knows history very well.

But for the most part, I'm so SICK of Palin, Palin, Palin, but perhaps the MORE we see the worse she looks! I just can't fathom HOW she can have the following she does when the things she says are so "off the wall" AND "off the mark!"

But, being a liberal is frustrating when so many of our own Democrats are leaning so FAAAARRRR to the Right! Makes me want to :puke: and it's really disgusting when you can almost count the number of Democrats you can depend on for helping "we the people!"

[defendandprotect]

216. STOP watching it -- we've been "sick" of MSM for the past 20 years or more!!

You're trying to fight corporate-press which is also heavily influenced by CIA/Pentagon????

Not going to work!!

Tweety is really one of us for the most part, but there are some days he talks out of both sides.

I'd rethink that one --

At best, Tweety is a fence sitter who moves with power --

I put Olberman on tonight -- Palin, Palin, Palin -- why????

I turned it off.

But, being a liberal is frustrating when so many of our own Democrats are leaning so FAAAARRRR to the Right! Makes me want to and it's really disgusting when you can almost count the number of Democrats you can depend on for helping "we the people!"

I wouldn't believe everything you see here at DU either --
There's a heavy DLC interest in the website -- and a heavy Democratic Party interest.
After all, doesn't DU collect money for the Democratic Party?
Take it all with a grain of salt here -- and remember it is big "D" Democratic Underground --
not small "d" -- !!

PLUS the rules and regulations of DU prevent any discussion except support for the Democratic Party!

[ThomThom]

187. good rant Mary

Democrats need to work much harder to get the message out and point out the huge holes in the message from the right. I would like to see the Pres do more chats with the people from the White House or on the road. The only reason there is a Democratic majority is that they where able to get big bucks from big donors. Clinton would not have been elected and neither would have Obama with out the bucks.
I too am worried about the future but refuse to give up and let the right walk all over me. I will go down speaking the truth and the facts.

[Mithreal]

73. Strongly support your first sentence. Should shout that same response

every time that nasty idea is uttered.

[PinkoDonkey]

14. But is not just "them" who will "deserve what they get".

Nor is it just non-insane Americans who will suffer with a "bankrupt country collapsing all around them."

The whole planet is going to suffer from our inability to make serious policy choices regarding energy sources and CO2.

It is tempting to not care anymore. Hell, sometimes I am in the same boat. But then I think future generations are going to curse us for our inability to stop the radical right as much as they curse the radical right.

[Mithreal]

83. .

:thumbsup:

[Zoeisright]

53. I feel the same ALL THE TIME these days.

I've had it, and the American public is going to get what it deserves.

[Mithreal]

85. You and I are that public. What do we deserve? Doesn't that matter?

I understand despair. There is only darkness in that kind of thinking though, light a candle.

We have a responsibility to each other. We're In This Together. :hug:

[defendandprotect]

162. Amazing how defeat brings more defeat and more discouragement ...!!

Hi Mithreal --

Since the bombshells from the Supreme Court last week and the many disappointments of

Obama/Dems, you can almost feel how disheartened everyone here is.

Everyone needs to think about 75 years or more of Americans "praying for peace" while

doing nothing about elites being out there creating wars for their own profit -- and

to disunite people of every nation one from the other.

Not to mention dividing our own nation!!

"We're in this together" --

:)

[Mithreal]

168. I can feel it. It's real. The answer, our response, always has to be the same

It's up to us and when we organize we are not alone.

[defendandprotect]

195. "It's up to us and when we organize we are not alone."

:hug:

[defendandprotect]

160. Will the Supreme Court "get what it deserves"???

Believing that the American public is stupid is a right wing message --

How could you possibly look at the steals of 2000 and 2004 and see anything but

the fact that Americans are voting against the right wing?

Look again at 2006 and 2008 and see that Americans are voting for a liberal agenda!!

Don't know what you're reading or listening to but the right wing controls most of

our press now -- it's a corporate/CIA-Pentagon press.

So look for alternate news -- and yes, we are still in an age old struggle against

elites and their efforts to control the masses. But if we understand what is going on

we will unite and defeat them.

Too many blame themselves -- blame other Americans.

Yes, many Americans are being misinformed -- not told of their stake in various issues.

But they aren't dumb and they generally understand that something is very wrong.

We need to get rid of computer voting -- and the computer "counting" machines --

just for one obvious move. And, IMO, you can question every election back to Nixon/

Humphrey.

PLUS 50 years of right wing political violence --

Take heart -- and turn off the TV!

[Kablooie]

78. Problem is that we will get it too.

[Mithreal]

86. +1

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

123. I hate that line of thinking. Yes, they deserve what they get but we all have to suffer.

And then, they continue to do the same things over and over again, voting against their best interests. I don't understand it. But the problem is that the rest of the country suffers due to their utter stupidity. It's not fair. So Orwellian!!

[defendandprotect]

163. Americans are not stupid ... they are voting on computers which are hackable. . .

and our votes are being counted by computers, as well!!

Granted, right wing propaganda is effective -- it is intended to have emotion sway

and to short circuit thinking.

But 2000 and 2004 were steals --

2006 and 2008 were wins for Democrats -- our problems are now moving those Democrats

to more progressive action.

We need a Plan B --

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

196. I'm sorry, but the average American is not very politically sophisticated at all. Stupid

may be a poor choice of words. (That was the word not used by me but from others in this thread.)

I think the average American is more prone to accept most things told to them. Even the smartest, most educated Americans are easily duped by oft-repeated sound bites and slogans. Instead of reading the paper and doing research, Americans are lazy and won't go out of their way to question what they hear or see.

Yes, stupid is a poor choice of words, but when most Americans gave Bush a pass after 911 and went along with an illegal war even after evidence surfaced to debunk all the lies/propaganda, a fair majority of Americans still went along with the powers that be. Americans may not be stupid, but they sure are ignorant of the facts and refuse to question what they're told.

And though I agree that 2000 and 2004 were stolen, those elections should not have been close to begin with. The Democrats continue to put up ineffective candidates, despite the fact that Gore and Kerry were treated unfairly by the press. They were still lackluster candidates that didn't inspire. That's the difference between the wingnuts and the Democrats. No matter how dumb and ridiculous their candidates are, they inspire their base. And when the wingnut base is fired up, galvanized, and get out the vote, our side loses. Those elections should not have been close enough to steal. PERIOD.

[defendandprotect]

212. It's not only the word . . . it's blaming fellow citizens for problems caused by capitalism . . .

and by elites/corporations --

True -- Americans have had a long idiotic tradition of not discussing politics or religion!!!

However, I don't think that people here at DU aren't smart - aren't educated -- or are easily duped.

But you can see all of that blaming right on this thread!!

I don't read any newspaper any longer -- the NY Times went when they hired Karl Rove!

And I think most here know the power of the internet for research.

This blaming creates an "us" and "them" status -- divides us.

Yes, stupid is a poor choice of words, but when most Americans gave Bush a pass after 911 and went along with an illegal war even after evidence surfaced to debunk all the lies/propaganda, a fair majority of Americans still went along with the powers that be. Americans may not be stupid, but they sure are ignorant of the facts and refuse to question what they're told.

All of Congress gave Bush a pass after 9/11 -- and thru all the obvious lies and deception!!

Our governments are corrupted from the TOP down.

IMO, 9/11 was MIHOP.

The Anthrax is also traceable to US military labs -- shut down Congress for months!

And though I agree that 2000 and 2004 were stolen, those elections should not have been close to begin with. The Democrats continue to put up ineffective candidates, despite the fact that Gore and Kerry were treated unfairly by the press. They were still lackluster candidates that didn't inspire. That's the difference between the wingnuts and the Democrats. No matter how dumb and ridiculous their candidates are, they inspire their base. And when the wingnut base is fired up, galvanized, and get out the vote, our side loses. Those elections should not have been close enough to steal. PERIOD.

Agree, that we are given the our leaders/candidates by the powerful who control our politics.

And agree that we deserved much better than Kerry or Gore -- or Lieberman!

Our corporate-press, however, is also even further ruled by CIA/Pentagon interests --

especially at time of war!

As long as we vote on computers we will have stolen elections --

Also keep in mind that the LARGE computers used by corporate-press and which began coming in

during the mid-1960's gave them new powers. Formerly, they could only report actual official

vote tallies. The computers gave them the power to PREDICT and CALL elections.

To PREDICT and CALL Electoral votes during presidential races -- and CALL winners.

We saw those powers reversed in 2000 when Jon Ellis/Fox RECALLED Florida from Gore!!

Coincidentally, the individual computers and the LARGE computers began coming in during the

mid and late 1960's -- just about the time America was passing The Voting Rights Act!!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

220. I hear you, but things changed after Watergate. We used to have an engaged populist.

My friends in England know more about our Congress and our politics than our own citizens do. I am so amazed by that. Perhaps we should make voting compulsory. Yeah, I know. People don't agree with that, but perhaps we should. Maybe that'll force people to become more engaged.

I'm a political science professor, and you're right: even my students--both liberal and conservative--don't know too damn much. I do believe that the corporate elite's main goal is to keep Americans as ignorant as possible. If we are ignorant and lack knowledge and facts, they can steal behind our backs which is exactly what they did. $9 billion in Iraq STILL unaccounted for. Yet no one raises an eyebrow.
Why?

Note: There were many people in Congress who knew that the war was a sham. They knew that Hussein had nothing to do with 911 or OBL. That's why I could never support Hillary Clinton. When Bob Graham begged her to read the intelligence report, she refuse as did many others, including Kerry even though they both had access to that report. In fact, Graham became so disillusioned with the Senate that he resigned. Remember Robert Byrd's impassioned cry on the floor of the Senate because they weren't even allowing debate on the war. Those who voted for the resolution were being politically expedient rather than clueless. I don't believe that they naively sat by and didn't know what the truth was. How come many of us knew but they didn't? I don't buy it.

[defendandprotect]

221. Things changed after 1963 . . .

Democrats gradually stopped covering the neighborhoods explaining what was going

on Democrats -- even later, they stopped running candidates against many Republicans

in many areas!

Back then, as well, Social Security used to send out representatives to large companies

to explain the system and the benefits -- the right wing propaganda about a "Ponzi Scheme"

pushed thru the WSJ couldn't have worked then.

Europeans have always been political -- Americans followed the idiotic notion that

it was impolite to discuss politics or religion in public!! Europeans also understood

murder/corruption -- Americans were taught that this is a "conspiracy-free America"!!

Europeans generally knew what the CIA was doing -- it was hidden from Americans.


Nothing wrong with making everyone vote, IMO -- however, if you still have them voting

on the same computers -- and have the same computers counting the votes -- you'll still

be in the same place -- nowhere!

Stalin: "It doesn't matter how many vote - what matters is who counts the votes."


Students generally believe and trust what their teachers tell them --

How much room for challenge has there been against the propaganda of white male history?

Until now, perhaps?

Education should be a lifelong, self-directed effort to enrich the life of the individual.

Rather, our schools and universities are hierarchies serving corporate/elite interests.

Look at BU and how costs have risen versus their real estate holdings over last 20 years!

Often, also military interests.

We have had an immense anti-war effort -- not only in America but everywhere.

And, let me assure you that though our leaders ignore it, the question of war, money and

billions "unaccountable" in Iraq are usually well known on any website I've been on.

Well known and frequently questioned.

We ALL knew that Iraq was a sham --

and so was Afghanistan --

As Howard Zinn often made clear, killing millions of innocent people because their

government engaged in a military attack isn't just.



HRC was DLC so I would never have voted for her --

Didn't know that about Bob Graham --

Nonetheless, Obama looks just as corporate at this point -- and Dems have now kept Bush

wars going 3 years.

How could they NOT have known? That was the universal cry after 9/11 --


Well -- I think we need a Plan B -- !!

[WinkyDink]

144. "They"?? Are you not an American?

[Mithreal]

174. +1

[ThomThom]

175. unfortunately if they go down, they are going to take us down with them

hang in there, we must never give up

[ThomThom]

176. unfortunately if they go down, they are going to take us down with them

hang in there, we must never give up

[Bluebear]

2. K/R - Ideals, whether left/right, good/evil, do not swing back & forth.

[rhett o rick]

3. I think in tough times people move right and then things get tougher, etc. nt

[butterfly77]

5. Then they wake up too late..

Because they don't think for themselves,as soon as the rightwing throws out a talking point you begin to hear it on cspan over and over and over again..

[rhett o rick]

21. we cant compete with the CorpAmerica propaganda machine. nt

[David Zephyr]

22. Not and be nice about it.

.

[laughingliberal]

38. Exactly! We keep bringing a knife to a gunfight.

But the bigger problem is we're moving right which is 1)not going to produce results people see in their wallets 2)not going to give anyone a reason not to vote for Republicans.

It's nuts.

[defendandprotect]

180. We can turn the TVs off -- limit the money we give to corporations . . .

try to stop using credit cardds --

STOP financing our enemies as much as possible!!

[Enthusiast]

97. C-Span? I am so disgusted

with C-Span. Every morning the host will read highlighted lines that support or echo a right wing talking point, often from the Wall Street Journal, as if that rag any longer has credibility considering their ownership.

It's the media, people!

[defendandprotect]

182. Re C-span . . . when it first began, it was about the only place you could

see liberals, progressives, women -- activists --

Slowly it was moved to the right -- Gulf War I takeover of C-span by military --

and 1994 "Grinrich revolution" totally destroyed it --

Also, most of the action in USHR and Senate has been taken off the floor and into

back rooms!



PS: HOWEVER, any bit of truth is a danger to the right wing -- it's a large mirror

of myth they're holding up to the world and one small pebble of truth will shatter it!

[Enthusiast]

204. Oh yeah.

They can't allow any light into the room, kind of like a vampire.

But it is there for anyone to see. The PTB had to create a boogie man to replace the USSR. The insurance industry used their massive resources to defeat HCR. The Banks are using their gift from the tax payers to fend off financial services reform. It is right in front of our face. One would have to be a dedicated Faux Noise watcher not to see it.

[Cosmocat]

136. The problem with that is ...

I don't disagree ...

But, the problem with that is that people got too "fat" and comfortable in the 90s, and allowed some repacked BS trickle down based idiot get elected in 99 because he was "a guy you would like to have a beer with" over a man 1000 times more decent and capable ...

[defendandprotect]

151. I think it's just the opposite ... when people understand WHY something is happening ....

they move to the LEFT -- and yet things get tougher as more corporate/elite

pressure/intimidation is applied -- like we're seeing now!

THAT's why you saw the tremendous turn out for Obama and Dems --

and the new betrayals by Dems --

As the saying goes . . .

"The Republicans are the express train to Auschwitz --

The Democrats are the local train to Auschwitz--"

[Raksha]

173. I never heard that saying before, but I totally agree!

"The Republicans are the express train to Auschwitz.
The Democrats are the local train to Auschwitz."

I wonder if I have the nerve to make that my new sig line on another discussion board I frequent. I don't care what the wingnuts think, but I don't want to piss off my liberal friends who still have lingering illusions about the Democratic Party.

[rocktivity]

6. Only because we're being shoved

by corpratrist politicians, clergy, and mass media.

A truly fair and balanced press would be talking from both sides of the pendulum. But they don't simply because the right would lose and they know it.


rocktivity

[Bonhomme Richard]

7. The question I have to answer is do I have faith in the American people?

Frankly I do not. We are a young society and we react like a 13 year old. Easily manipulated because we wear our emotions on our sleeves therefore subject to short term stimuli. Take that with this inherent belief that we are the good guys and can do no wrong encourages the wrong conclusions about who we are and where we are going. Hitler never would have gained power with the backing of the 20% true believers. What he needed, and got, were the middle of the road (independents) voters. He was presented as their savior and the wall that was going to protect their lifestyle threatened by the communist and radicals.

[David Zephyr]

62. It's hard clay to work with these days.

We do react like 13 year olds with our fists and with fear. Hey, we elected George W. Bush, a 13-year old in a grown man's body, to represent us to the world for 8 years. No wonder we scare the shit out of half the world. They know we have the real weapons of mass destruction stockpiled up to our chins...and we are then only nation that ever used them against entire cities. That the unique club we are alone in: we actually dropped nukes on civilians twice.

[Enthusiast]

98. Friend, with all due respect,

we absolutely did not elect George W Bush. He was defeated. Make no mistake about that.

I agree with the rest of your post.

[Echo In Light]

122. And scores of Dems railed hard against the "loonies" who made that initial, obvious call

And this supposedly represents the 'oppositional' (to corporate/RW rule) party.

There are still countless DUers who vehemently deny that Bush/Cheney were installed via the PNAC

[David Zephyr]

206. You are right, of course.

We know the election was stolen, but I wrote that because the bigger issue is that he got as many votes as he did. But you are right, it was stolen and planned to be stolen a year in advance.

[Echo In Light]

121. Nor I. There's a staggering majority who haven't the vaguest clue as to historic RW shifts

... and what it means, what it represents in actuality, the socio-economic factors that help shape it, the role of top-down rhetoric/directives and subsequently the common views/attitudes one encounters, and generally how such propaganda subverts the public mind/will. Failed democratic experiment.

[CrispyQ]

130. This is the result of a dumbed down society

that just wants to be mindlessly entertained, whether with small electronic gadgets or American Idol & Survivor. They can't be bothered to actually look up the word socialist, to see if it that label really applies to the President they so disdain. They gather in small groups, throw these labels around without understanding their true meaning & the media, which is the most powerful tool the TPTB have against us, echos it, endlessly, until even more people begin to believe that our President is an evil socialist.

With the help of the media, the conservatives effectively demonized the word liberal. So instead of standing up for liberal convictions & the label, too, dems distanced themselves from that word & now call themselves progressives. And what do we see happening now? They are demonizing the word progressive. It doesn't matter what we call ourselves, they will demonize it to the point that most Americans will shun any association with it, all the while, never understanding what those labels really represent.

I have no hope in the American people. I think they will wake up eventually, but I fear that our country will be so torn & tattered by then that it will take an immense collaboration of people from all walks & philosophies. We have been at each others throats for so long, that I'm not sure that can happen.

[Echo In Light]

131. Perhaps our species will make some last min evolutionary leap...lol

... or not. Likely that whatever remnant population that remains after whatever cataclysm eventually rattles the earth will merely plug along as it did to lead to where we're at now...basically. So, for me it's more about broader terms of humanity. America, the concept of what the old propaganda used to represent, the illusion of that has completely flickered out. Power will continue to show its true colors as greater numbers of the disenfranchised are more and more apparent and varied throughout the social landscape.

[defendandprotect]

153. How do you decide that when we vote on computers?

When the American public is not being told their stake in issues?

I was watching a movie the other night -- COUNTRY -- with Sam Shepard and

Jessica Lange. I was amazed that it was made all the way back in 1984!!!

It's about farmers being thrown off their land because of corporate

farming and banks colluding in entrapping them in unfair loans.

Sound familiar?

Same old crap --

These farmers were being hit one by one -- not knowing that there were more

than 30,000 of them whose farms were being targeted.

Unfortunately, Americans are being poorly informed by a corporate/CIA-Pentagon press.

We need to renew the New Deal restrictions -- and put a lot of fire under what the

messages we are sending to Congress!!

You can't keep voting for this corporate agenda and expect something better to be

happening, can you . . . ???? We've been doing that for 20 years and more -- same

results!!

We need a Plan B before all of our options dry up!

[polichick]

9. Well said. How can anyone think there is a pendulum when the only two Dem presidents...

...in decades are DLC/New Democrats - which is just another way of saying Republican lite.

[RKP5637]

13. +1, n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. "All politics is local." Tip O'Neill Most Americans are non-ideoligical.

They're concerned with what's actually happening in their lives. Or, at least, what they perceive to be happening. The don't give a rip about left/right, liberal/conservative. Most people vote against politicians and politics in general and will lay blame on whoever is, or claims to be, running things.

Or, they don't bother voting at all because they realize that the fix is in and in favor of the rich and powerful.

[defendandprotect]

169. But we're all voting on computers . . . which are hackable . . .

Keep in mind also that Tip O'Neill and Dick Gephardt decided not to run a Democrat against

Newt Gingrich because ..... "Newt was in favor of a salary increase for Congress" -- !!!

Look where Newt went after that -- on to the "Contract on America" and the taking of Congress

in '94 -- though with computers you can never be sure!!



2000 and 2004 were undeniably stolen --

2006 Dems won --

2008 Dems won -- in fact some say it was a landslide for Obama --

and that we probably won at least 24 more seats in Congress than we got!

This is a liberal nation taken hostage by right wing violence and election steals.

I'd be more inclined to agree with your final assessment -- "they know the fix is in and

have stopped voting" --

[kentuck]

11. A reality kick for my friend.

good points DZ.

[David Zephyr]

50. Thanks, Kentuck.

You are one of the dearest people I've known here at the DU. We've been through some real shit together.

[kentuck]

132. Thanks for enduring David.

We have been through a lot, there is no doubt.

[90-percent]

15. Quaint

This quaint debate will only live for another ten months before the political first class of corporations all get elected in.

Speech as posted above will be banned from the internet after this election.

Our institutions have all been taken over by monsters with no humanity or morality what so ever. To create so much misery for so many so that the top .1% get to treat their corporate employees like medieval serfs, you have just got to be stark raving mad losing your mind with selfishness.

Our institutions no longer serve the common good. They serve the elite on the top that run them only, at the expense of the vast majority.

Kinda like tyranny. God help us.

-90% Jimmy

DU should have a buddy system for any of us that in the future undergo governmental rendition. So we stand a better chance of being rescued from our own government, should our own government elect to kidnap us and put us in a dungeon cut off from the whole outside world.

[Hydra]

34. Rescued from our own gov't?

It'll be like the movie Brazil. Anyone who so much as makes a peep about anyone carried off for torture will themselves be renditioned on suspicion of being a terrorist.

Enjoy the last few moments of "free" speech.

[defendandprotect]

166. Keep in mind there's a "dungeon" here at DU . . .

intended to isolate some discussions and some posters --

We've also had 50 years of right wing political violence with no response from

government and little from Democratic Party!

With the coup on JFK our government and our party were taken from us --

[90-percent]

17. As a boomer

I have a question. Did things in America get as totalitarian as things are now back in the red scares and black lists of the fifties? And the segregation. and the labor movement and the korean war and ike golfing and sputnik.

Were we as frightened and ignorant about things back then as now? Was the media so fascist and bullshit back in the fifties? Did we have more trust in our institutions and leadership back then compared to now?

These are creepy, frightened and unhappy times. I feel like I was laid off last year in small part because of my outspoken political beliefs at work. (at check out lines, too. I try to wake up the young, who are our only hope) I consider things so grim it is my duty as a citizen to inform those around me of how dangerous and injurious our government has become.

Our leaders lie to us so much they don't even try to cover up their agendas anymore. This prick Shelby is just one beautiful example. Making the entire country hostage for fucking pork in his state! That is so extreme he's got to be violating his oath of office or something! This is thuggish criminal mafia boss politics. How the fuck is the vast majority of us served by shit like that? Shouldn't THE VAST MAJORITY of us enjoy a wee bit more representation than this self absorbed prick?

-90% Jimmy

[Enthusiast]

100. Great post!

But Shelby, and his kind of behavior, is what we can expect in the foreseeable future when we choose to "look forward" rather than prosecute obvious malfeasance. The state of this country and media make me sick. I am beyond disgusted by it.

[CrispyQ]

135. That was my first thought, too, Enthusiast.

We have created an entire class that is above the law. The rich & famous live by a different set of laws then the rest of us.

[freddie mertz]

113. Things were pretty bad in the 50s and 60s as well.

Fascist, racist interests were very deeply entrenched.

It took a morally forthright movement, or series/grouping of movements, to dislodge them (temporarily) from absolute dominance.

But just as soon as the more basic principles of these movements began to achieve their "victories," we saw a re-animation and massive expansion of the fascist corporate order, with Nixon, Reagan, and the rest as the political frontmen at the time.

The great failures of the corporate-financial state in the 200s, beginning with 9/11 and peaking with the 2008 collapse, left an opening for a renewed progressive effort to truly remake our discredited system. But that moment has turned out to be fleeting, and the forces against us are now poised for a major, catastrophic victory.

And the president, who seems to have embraced his own failure to act well and on time, wants to "talk" with them.

[defendandprotect]

185. Thank you for those important reminders . . .

In the 1960's SEGREGATION, INC was still in place!!! Imagine that!!

Homosexuals were trying to live their lives in secret because of oppression and

persecution --

Women's movement hadn't even begun yet!!


I will disagree with you, however, that there is any corporate-financial "failure" --

Rather it is planned corruption and theft --

However, very much agree that 9/11 was used for the purpose of wars and to move us

more completely into the "national security state."

Either Obama is insane or we are watching great acting? Which is it?


Is it possible that we all know that what the nation needs is MEDICARE FOR ALL and

yet Obama doesn't get that? Is that really possible? I strong doubt it.


Is it possible that the entire nation and people all over the world are anti-war and

yet Obama and Dems have not only kept the Bush wars going an additional three years --

bankrupting our Treasury -- because they don't understand the how self-defeating war is?

Is that possible? I don't think so.


So what's really going on -- ???

Let's think about THAT -- !!!

[Initech]

18. The repukes successfully took over our media thanks to the fat ass and the crazy lunatic.

With them they can pretty much say whatever they want and it gets repeated over and over ad nauseum.

[defendandprotect]

186. Corporate-press is a reality, but so is MOCKINGBIRD . . .

and CIA/Pentagon control of press --

[zbdent]

19. Moving America "Rightward" is like two men on a bicycle built for two ...

pedaling up a hill ...

Once they get to the top, the Progressive in front says "Man, that was a steep hill!"

The Conservative on the back says "Yeah ... If I hadn't had the brakes on, we would have gone down!"

[Mithreal]

88. .

:thumbsup:

[Jakes Progress]

20. There are many ways to say it.

One is that we aren't moving rightward so much as the anything left of the left is being purchased and destroyed by the corporate culture. Americans have sold their birthright and enslaved their grand children out of fear and greed and hate. Even here on DU moderate liberalism is being taunted as crazy-ass far left wacko. The term left wing is often used as an insult or put down. And the people they are labeling such are really barely left of middle.

If you really want to be scared, spend a half hour on the bottom half of the AM dial. The commentators are crazy. But the saddest part is that they are more sane than the idiots that call in. 30 minutes on those lower AM bands will have you googling living costs in France and New Zealand.

Sometimes it's not so much how right wing the country is, but how truly ignorant and nasty so many of its citizens are.

[Motown_Johnny]

23. Long term demographics are in our favor

it is more reasonable to assume that we are moving to the left.

[David Zephyr]

24. Not when that demographic is docile, complacent and spoon fed their lot in life.

It's easier today than ever before, because of technology, to subjugate and dumb down even a hostile populace, never mind a complacent one that accepts its place.

Demographics were always in our favor, Motown_Johnny. Demographics favor prisoners, too. But a even a prisoner, never mind a civilian, can be purchased to be a guard.

Numbers mean less today than ever before in human history.

[DCBob]

27. Long term yes.. I am more worried about short term, like the next election.

Many Dems are complacent and tired of politics and may not show up to vote. They put Obama in the WH and they think their work is done. Somehow we need inspire the masses again to vote or make it easier for them to vote. I have always liked the idea of weekend voting which I am sure would increase voter participation.

[Enthusiast]

101. Yes, so right you are.

So many don't seem to realize what exactly is at stake.

Imagine a GOP majority, considering how powerful they have become with 40 votes in the Senate. :sarcasm:

Actually you are right on, it is the short term we must be concerned about-as in the 2010 and 2012 elections.

[Marr]

29. Demographics alone makes zero difference.

How well does our political culture reflect our population now? Single Payer is a very popular idea amongst the general population, but simply excluded from the political debate.

I think we're watching our own government morphing into something more and more overtly like the government of Mexico, personally. Completely indifferent to their ignored population, because they're effectively insulated from it. Every time someone says you should vote for a corporate Democrat because 'the alternative is so much scarier', they're playing right into it. Their spirit is so broken that they think the best they can hope for is a pat on the head after their daily beating.

Power cedes nothing unless it has to. The general population of this country won't see an ounce of improvement until they're willing to really demand it-- and by really demand it, I mean shutting down the system, taking the beating their government will definitely dish out in response, then do it again.

[David Zephyr]

32. +1

.

[Common Sense Party]

57. How are long-term demographics in our favor?

Repubs tend to reproduce more than we do.

[DCBob]

102. America is becoming more urban, more diverse, more educated and younger...

all of which trend toward being more liberal thinking and voting.

[Common Sense Party]

208. I hope you're right.

I don't think you are. America is getting older--77 million Baby Boomers are entering retirement, the first start turning 65 next year. More diverse? Perhaps. More urban? No--more SUBurban, which trends more conservative. The Bible Belt South is procreating at a much faster clip than the liberal North. More educated? Perhaps--but I know lots of teabaggers with college degrees.

[DCBob]

219. Article: "A Permanent Democratic Majority?"

A Permanent Democratic Majority?
Thomas Edsall
April 15, 2009

A growing number of political scientists, analysts and strategists are making the case for a realignment of political power in the U.S. to a new Democratic majority based on two trends: 1) the increasing numbers of black and Hispanic voters, and 2) a decisive shift away from the Republican Party by the suburban and well-educated constituencies that once formed the backbone of the GOP.

Arguments supporting a Democratic realignment are based on well-researched population and voting data. Nonetheless, at a time when the economy remains in crisis and when international tensions are intensifying across the globe, any claim that Democratic (or Republican) ascendance is inevitable should be viewed with caution.

In a March, 2009 51-page paper "New Progressive America: Twenty Years of Demographic, Geographic, and Attitudinal Changes Across the Country Herald a New Progressive Majority," Ruy Teixeira makes a strong case that "progressive arguments are in the ascendancy," that demographic and geographic "trends should take America down a very different road than has been traveled in the last eight years. A new progressive America is on the rise."

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/04/15/a_permanent_democratic_majority_48926.html


BTW, I was wrong about the "younger" part but the rest is true. I guess what I was thinking is that old white conservatives are dying out thus increasing the number of younger more liberal minded. Regardless, America is inevitably becoming more liberal minded and thats the main reason why conservatives are acting so desperate.

[Mithreal]

89. post a link next time if you can't take the time to explain

Not directed at you necessarily, but can't stand when someone has some seemingly positive thing to say and it's very cryptic. If you have something good to share, make an effort.

please and thank you

[DCBob]

25. "George W. Bush can be morphed into Barack Obama."

Many progresives call Barack Obama "Bush-lite". Is Fox news responsible for that?

[David Zephyr]

31. You know better, but I know what you are driving at.

The Left, frustrated, sometimes may taunt Obama with that rhetoric to move him to the Left because they know he has it within him to do so and to do great things. The truth is that President Obama has nothing in common with George W. Bush. Bush was resolute and rammed his wars and policies through Congress even when Democrats controlled the Senate. No super majority. Not even a simple majority, but he got what he wanted. Obama is stumbling with both Houses at his disposal because, I believe he lacks either the muscle or the will to use the muscle that the dimwit before him used over and over again with glee.

On the other hand, the morphing I speak of from the right-wing "information" organs is a highly cynical and calculated shifting the blame for the catastrophic results of their policies and sticking it onto Obama. The anger out there is real. And we should own it. But we are not only losing it, but we are becoming the target of the anger. And that's masterful that the right wing has achieved this.

If we lose the House and Senate (which is a very real possibility because of the Supreme Court's ruling, I think President Obama would have wished he'd recognized the futility of trying to win Republicans over to his side though out 2009. He lost a full year trying to work with the very people that have no intention to ever support him. It seems he still wants to believe the Republicans will work with him. They won't.

We all want President Obama to succeed. Some of those most loyal to him seem more worried about the Left, his true base, and prone to attacking it than attacking the real enemy.

[Enthusiast]

103. Limbaugh was calling it

"Obama's recession" in November of last year. And he formulated the entire GOP strategy. A strategy that directed all GOP resources and energy toward making Obama and his policies fail.

Like you said, they successfully shifted blame for all our problems onto Obama and the Democrats.

They squeal loudest when we criticize Bush. That should tell us something. That is the key to their vulnerability. It is completely unreasonable to place the blame on the Democrats and Obama. And the GOP does not want the public to give this much thought.

[DCBob]

107. "The Left, frustrated, sometimes may taunt Obama with that rhetoric to move him to the Left"

When will they realize that is not going to work? President Obama is a centrist and is bound and determined to be the transformational President this country so desperately needs right now. His fav book is still "Team of Rivals".

[Overseas]

115. +1

[ThomThom]

198. The problem is the Democrats appear to have a majority

but they really don't because a large number of them vote with the republicans on every issue.

Thanks for starting this thread it is proving to be a very good discussion.

[spanone]

26. for most of my life there has been a perceived pendulum

i looked at it more as reactionary behavior

[Solly Mack]

28. k/r

[xchrom]

30. The corporate bail put and insurance reform

May well be seen as a kind of Waterloo despite
the pom pom waving of certain cheerleaders.

I've never wholeheartedly believed on the notion
of democratic takeover based on ethnic diversity -- we have a real chance if we
stick with dr deans road map and work it every goddamn election.

[David Zephyr]

69. Thanks for calling it "Insurance Reform" and not "Healthcare Reform"

Howard Dean is a real hero. He has a very small microphone now. It's been seen to.

[Enthusiast]

105. If he has a small microphone

now imagine what it will be like after several CORPORATE directed election cycles. "It's been seen to." ED Zackery.

[leftstreet]

35. K&R

[wildflower]

36. I think the period is more like 80 years

Things reached a peak back in the 20s, then started becoming more progressive again. I'm hoping the same is happening now.

There are a pair of authors who take this view as well (though probably not exactly as I've phrased it), Strauss and Howe. Check out their writings.

Here's a Wiki summary on Strauss and Howe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss_and_Howe

[David Zephyr]

42. I am familiar with their generational hypothesis, but when it comes to history, I'm a Marxist.

Strauss and Howe identified curious "cycles" of history, and they are intriguing, but as attractive as their hypothesis may seem, history is not cyclic, even though the Mayan calendar says it is, too. ;)

Karl Marx opened the Communist Manifesto with this simple, but brilliantly resilient truth: "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles." Nothing that I have ever read or seen in my lifetime has proved to me this not to be the case.

Many Democrats do not know that it was a Democratic President, Woodrow Wilson, whose Administration launched the horrific Palmer Raids against the American Left, Unions, The Wobblies, and pacifists who had opposed his war. Some accounts have as many as 10,000 American citizens imprisoned. Many non-citizens were deported. After Wilson, the U.S. Government and the White House pretty much fell prey to corporate corruption and criminal activity at the highest levels of government. The end of the 20's saw the ruin of America brought on by a host of things, but chiefly the collapse of the financial system. FDR inherited the mess, much as Barack has now, and what a mess it was.

Edit for this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Raids

[BeHereNow]

37. Damn David, you out did yourself on this one...Fucking GREAT post!

I agree with EVERY word you say.

But I wouldn't hold my breath on very many people rebooting their thinking.
Not even here on DU, where sometimes I can't believe what I read from some
members of this community.

BHN

[David Zephyr]

71. Thanks BHN.

When 60 Democrats and a Super Majority in the House and a Democratic President elected with a 10 million vote margin can not stop the raiding by Wall Street of the public purse, can not provide health care to every citizen as a right, can not turn back the military/industrial complex, can not close even 10% of the hundreds of military bases around the world and more, then you know who controls the country...the people that own it.

[Enthusiast]

106. It is as plain as that.

As reasonable as it was to expect effective health care reform it was characterized as the most vile thing imaginable. Far worse than the wars we are waging. And that about says it all.

[cadmium]

39. The more miserable and afraid people are the further right they go nt

[johnnyplankton]

41. I'M TIRED, I'M IN DESPAIR, BUT I AIN'T DEAD YET....

The day we say we're all done, and I say it frequently, is the day day we're all all done. I can whine, or I can fight. If I go down knowing I didn't even fight, there is no other name for me but COWARD.

[cadmium]

112. Exactly. Somehow try to encourage stressed

and scared people --- Not to Give the Assholes that Satisfaction.

Unfortunately they seem to direct that fear and anger on scapegoats. Plus hate and contempt makes them feel powerful. It is a hard sell. If you directly tell people they are wrong they just get more defensive.

I saw my large workplace really scared and angry (ie Conservative) for years after 9-11.

[jonathon]

40. I am in complete agreement. These nutjobs need to be stopped NOW>

[BlueJac]

43. I am on board with your opinion....

this country has slipped so far right people don't understand where the middle is. Many here speaking their minds would really be republicans and don't even know it. Old moderates are called far left and that is totally ridiculous!!! I am sick of the mess we are in and ready to go Green all the way. We have been sold out completely and people are name calling the far left!!! They don't know left from right!!!

[David Zephyr]

60. And we have very little options.

We are cornered. Check mate. WalMart has your Soylent Green in new nifty, lab tested, market tested, packaging as seen on TV on the American Idol. Praise Jesus.

[wouldsman]

44. I agree. People often say "it is just cyclical"

in regards to economics or politics. But it isn't cyclical until those who are getting the short end of the stick rise up and demand that changes be made to the system that is currently in a cycle that is making their life worse. Righties refer to the depression as a cyclical situation, paying no respect to the fact that actions were taken to correct the cycle.
I am afraid that we can't just blame it on those in power though- I feel as if we are getting the govt that we deserve. Not the one that those of us who are open minded, thoughtful, and concerned for the well being of all deserve, but this country as a whole has lost touch with reality, has no logic and no natural intuition to smell out the corruption and recognize when they are having the wool pulled over their eyes.
Good Luck America. Hope you wake up soon. We are here to help you when you are ready. Please wake up before you take us all down with you.

[David Zephyr]

51. Welcome to the DU, wouldsman!

We need your voice here. :hi:

And, yes, it's not been cyclical. The march toward the right has been a steady movement since FDR died. We've lost far more than we've gained. I treasure our victories, primarily the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act (that might be in trouble with this SCOTUS) and some others, but look at how the uber rich are taxed today as compared to when FDR was President and you can see how far we've slipped. And the industrial/military complex, along with the NSA run the nation now. It's just the way it is.

[scarletwoman]

45. Important post, DZ. I agree, there is no pendulum.

At 60 years old, all I've seen in my life is things getting worse and worse, at a faster and faster pace.

I'm quite certain that I won't live long enough to witness the end of the descent, much less the rise of any sort of rational humanistic society out of the ashes.

Sadly,
sw

[David Zephyr]

58. I'm there and I'm with you.

It's not resignation, it's just after a while you realize that the material we are working with isn't that bright and has massive ADD.

They hurry home from WalMart to catch American Idol and are filled with religious fanaticism, racial bigotry that just won't go away, homophobia, sexism, xenophobia and a nationalistic/militarist collective brain that makes it hard to break through to them.

We are just about the same age and this last downturn economically is just beginning to make its way through to the public. Those that have ARM's on their homes (not the subprimers who have already been cleared out) are all about to have their loans reset again in the next 36 months and that will make the subprimes looks like a walk in the park.

We may need a new forum here for the liberal diaspora who are close to giving up where we can kevetch as we watch the decline.

It is getting worse.

[dixiegrrrrl]

137. I am a few years older than you and for the first time I am seeing death

as a favor.
When I look at what is happening, and can clearly see the inevitable next steps, I cry for my children, feel grateful there will be no grandchildren, and hopeful that I may take leave of this planet before everything goes truly off the rails.
Yet to speak about the perceived near future, given the current trends, is to be called
a nutcase, or conspiracy theorist.
I guess one cannot blame people for hoping there is a pendulum and that this growing insanity will eventually, maybe even soon, start to swing back to center.
My own denial has been broken, however.

[defendandprotect]

188. Needless to say, the frustration among liberals/progressives is easy to see

these days --

but it's the discouragment that worries me most --

and last week's news seems to have been the straw that broke the

camel's back -- though I think in a bit liberals will get back to revolution!!

We have to keep trying for our children ---

There is nothing new in this battle -- it is elite violence vs the masses --

oldest battle ever!

This thing didn't happen overnight -- the en plaine air violence of 1963 and the

taking of our president and our "people's" government -- and our Democratic Party --

all took a great deal of time.

Capitalism's exploitation of nature over a 100 years and more was long obvious --

but violence and intimidation will defeat whistleblowers and common sense and science!

"Experts" have defeated American common sense and gumption!

Polls -- computer voting which now makes us question and blame the stupidity of OTHER

Americans!! Americans aren't stupid -- you don't need a college degree to know what's

going on is injustice.

Americans stopped voting long ago because they understood that our elections were being

fixed.

The elites have been giving us our candidates -- and that's all we are permitted to vote for.

Their candidates.

We need a Plan B -- and after a period of mourning here -- we need to renew our determination

and our courage!!






:)

[varelse]

46. There is no pendulum

there is only spin :/

[KonaKane]

47. It took me 50 years to figure it out.

But the sad news is, this nation wants to be right wing. That's the long and the short of it. Its inertia is forever going to the right. Look at the last 10 years. 8 of those were gobbled up in the disaster of rightwing conservative domination of government, with all the catastrophic results that now mark our age. We should have been a shoo-in, and been enjoying a firm and rising solidification of power. But one year into a Democratic presidency with a Democratic majority in Congress, and we are already watching it slip away for a very possible 1994 redux. The right wing can fuck up, fuck up, fuck up and still be brought back for another chance after the briefest of times in the penalty box. The left? They are back to slugging it out in the trenches after minutes in the game, no matter what their score average is.

If I was the crying type, it would be enough to make you fall to your knees and bawl. It's getting more useless by the day.

Thank the Gods I live in Hawaii, where we have some distance from ground zero of the next round of right wing buffoonery surely to come down on us.

[David Zephyr]

52. I can not disagree with a word you wrote.

Because it is true. Someone in another thread here today posted the number of millions of votes that McCain and Palin got. That should scare us all.

[Enthusiast]

108. The nation doesn't

necessarily want to be right wing. The M$M only tells (convinces) you it does. If the electorate wanted to be right wing they would not have overwhelmingly elected the traditionally progressive party in 2006 and 2008.

It is entirely about M$M bias.

[defendandprotect]

189. While I completely recognize the fear of your final sentence . . .

I disagree that there is anything natural about the move to the right --

it has been organized and bought with right wing money -- from the faked

right wing religious movement to the T-baggers -- from corporate-press to

to US creating the VIOLENT Islamic movement and moving it into the ME.

Unfortunately, right wing propaganda does work -- and what they mainly want

is for liberals/progressives to give up --

We can't do that --

I've never visited Hawaii -- always loved stories of the original natives --

and well underestand your fears re nuclear weapons --

After US dropped nuclear weapons on the Bikini Islands, a woman native of the

islands commented --

"Americans are really smart about really stupid things--"


Our government has long been in corrupt hands -- none of this is the will of the people.

[Mosaic]

48. We still have a strong majority

There is a narrative born in the halls of DC, spread through corporate media, television and newspapers. The narrative is contagious like a virus, fabricated by a conservative who is clever enough to introduce it to the Village in a way that sells. That's all we hear now, even by those on the left who are fooled by its cleverness. I remember well why Democrats won in 2008, my memory is clear. We need to keep that in mind, and we need courage to do great things, get reelected, win high approval, and remind voters why the repugs are bad for them.

[scentopine]

49. As corporations gain more and more control - we will not be able to undo the damage-

they will make it harder and hard for people to organize and protest with civil disobedience. Now that any protest group is immediately infiltrated with local police and feds, it is impossible to organize civil disobedience as anyone who organizes protest is considered a terrorist threat.

AT&T monitors our e-mails, the fed monitor our emails cameras are everywhere - we are placid vegetables as both democrats and republicans rape us over and over and over. We are powerless. I hate to say it, but as long as anyone votes democrat or republican, we will continue our journey to the extreme right wing. Just look at the DSCC lobbying convention in South Beach - a corporate orgy fuckfest.

On another note, as power and wealth gets concentrated among a few elite, we are inviting violence. Every society without exception, ultimately attempts to solve the disparity between rich and poor with violence. This is because the rich dilute what justice means for ordinary citizens through the legislative process. It doesn't mean violence will undo the current injustice, its just that violence will become more and more commonplace as all other means for justice are exhausted.

We already have shown a large appetite for torture and 10 years of a brutal bloody war at a cost of a million dead and 10,000 amputees. The right wing is loading up with guns, blaming the left - which is hilarious because the real left (i.e. liberals) have not had real policy control since maybe Johnson, but more likely FDR.

Liberals are hated and blamed by both parties for the countries demise. In truth we've had nothing to do with it. I'm a liberal and have had no representation in the democratic party in spite of 30 years of cash support and labor. I was a fool. The democratic party is now for right wingers who are just as right wing as the early neo-cons. The republicans are moving into hitler's territory. Every lurch to the right brings chaos and huge windfall for Wall Street and the corporate elite and they reward democrats and republicans at the expense of the middle class and below.

Until we have the possibility of representation in a third party, voting for democrats and republicans will keep us moving to the right and our quality of life will continue to degrade. I used to get very angry with the Nader vote. No more. I get it after 30+ years. I finally get it. I continue to extend my apologies for being a fool and supporting the main stream political process - which has become a flaming pile of shit just like the mainstream media. No doubt Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity, Beck, Savage and the rest would kill the few remaining liberals if they had a chance (as they frequently threaten to do). Mainstream democrats are handing them the knife.

What did we do to deserve this hate? Liberals fight for single payer, Wall Street reform, and end to this fucking endless war. Liberals would prosecute tortures and those who cause grievous harm to the nation by start wars based on lies and deceit. We would stop wiretapping citizens. We would fight against outsourcing to low wage, unregulated labor markets in Asia. We would raise taxes on the rich and investigate and prosecute them for their wall street fraud and corruption.

Democrats are doing exactly the opposite of these things, Obama refers to us as "those on the left" in a false equivalence with "those on the right" - how can democrats possibly be considered "the left"?

Yes, I fully assert without any fear of contradiction that the mainstream political parties are a flaming pile of shit just like the mainstream media - in fact they are sort of merging into one common corporate entity at war with citizens. And let's be honest, the republicans are winning - they put their best shock troops out front, and the democrats just coast along in the slip stream pleading with republicans for bi-parisanship (jesus, I want to fucking vomit every time obama mentions bi-partisan). Neither party is deserving of support at this time.

[inna]

54. KR

:kick:

[inna]

55. KR

:kick:

[David Zephyr]

59. You are on the mark on so many dimensions.

The U.S. is moving more to becoming like the PRC than the other way around. We are expected to be happy -- drugged if necessary -- consumers who learn to expect less from life than we had. It's easy to control millions of people now. Noam Chomsky said that the entire professional and educational systems are designed to weed out independent people. Go along to get along.

[snagglepuss]

84. well said. nt

[Enthusiast]

109. +10,000!

Yeah, the GOP puts their best shock troops out front and the Democrats find the weakest representation they can muster to put out front-Nancy and Harry. They are the very picture of weakness. A feather would kill them.

And Obama is even pushing for a Columbia trade agreement. Unfuckingbelievable! With the populist anger about Nafta he is proposing a trade agreement? This is as much like an episode of the Twilight Zone as anything.

[CrispyQ]

141. No one nails it like Mr. Fish.

I believe Harry is the one with the glasses.

[CrispyQ]

140. An excellent post, scentopine!

I especially appreciate what you said about Nader. I voted for Nader & every time I've admitted that on this board I get chewed up, spit out & blamed for the last eight years of hell. It's as if the SCOTUS vote never happened & it was all my little 'ole vote that put that lame shit in office. :eyes:

And now we have a dem in the White House, with the House & the Senate & that lame ass spent the last fucking year trying to make nice with the very people that got us into this fucking mess. :grr:

On that happy note, I offer you a belated welcome to DU! :hi:

[defendandprotect]

191. This level of despair and frustration is EXACTLY what the right wing seeks to create -- !!!

Would you have given up the battle against Segregation -- ??

Are homosexuals and those who support their human rights giving up -- ??

Will we all give up on equality for women -- ??

Will we stop fighting for freedom, even for our children -- ??

they will make it harder and hard for people to organize and protest with civil disobedience. Now that any protest group is immediately infiltrated with local police and feds, it is impossible to organize civil disobedience as anyone who organizes protest is considered a terrorist threat.

That thinking is all based on fear -- what it should point to is that we need new and

specific, individual ways to protest. Why haven't we all been wearing MEDICARE FOR ALL

buttons, for one. Why are we not all wearing "anti-war" buttons? Would someone stop you

from doing that?

What about turning the lights off at set times --

keeping your TV turned off --

Pulling your car over for 10-15 minutes at a time given a signal --

And many other ways we could use to unite us all and allow us to see the power of the

powerless!!!

Do you know that Chinese women, oppressed, had a secret written language for 1,000 years?

And, I agree, anyone giving money to anything but individual candidates they completely

trust is inane.

I agree with you that the more the elites amass the greater their fear of the masses --

TORTURE is more about fightening the public -- making people fear telling the truth --

When our president was taken from us in 1963, our "people's" government was also taken --

as well as the Democratic Party! We need a Plan B --

Decades ago Nader was warning us of the buying of government and "two party tyranny" --

Others were saying ...

"The Republicans are the express train to Auschwitz--

The Democrats are the local train to Auschwitz--"

Hate to depress you even further, but yes -- Democrats were infiltrating the Green Party to

undermine liberal change in America. Again, we need a Plan B--

Liberals and progressives have done nothing wrong -- not any more than African-Americans did

something wrong to cause their enslavement -- or native Americans did something wrong to

move those concerned with riches and land to commit genocide against them --

Nor did women do anything to justify 50,000 years of violence and oppression against them!

Nor have homosexuals done anything wrong -- on and on!

This is an age old battle between the violent few vs the masses -- for control of the wealth

and natural resources of the nation. Every nation, in fact!

Are you still looking to Obama for wisdom, for common sense -- for reality?

The people who are winning are those on the right with power and money --

illegitimate power and stolen money --

And we cannot give up fighting them and fighting for freedom --

especially for our children!

[scentopine]

205. I'm not giving up figthing - just changing venues for the fight...

Thanks for your reply.

I claim the two mainstream political parties are not worth supporting and liberals trust in the democratic party is easily exploited. We have nothing to lose by pulling support of the democratic party and working within a new political framework.

Change needs to come from the outside at this point. I'm not a big fan of small independent actions - I remember "whip inflation now" buttons. We need to get in the face of politicians and cause them to lose money and cause them to lose elections if we don't get the change we demand.

I'm well aware that this is a minority viewpoint - but political differences between the two parties is rhetorical and emotive and really about brand association- Coke or Pepsi, Burger King or McDonalds, NBC or ABC or CBS.

Voting and where we chose to give our support is the *only* leverage we have (other than writing $10,000 checks to politicians) - I no longer intend to have that support taken for granted by democrats just because I am a liberal and the alternative is "worse". There are about 13,000 registered lobbyists in D.C. They write the legislation for 300 million people. They get attention because they get in the face of politicians and they bribe and threaten the politicians - directly and indirectly.

This is the only language a politician understands and the only way change can occur. The democrats are no more the answer than the republicans. It isn't a matter of the lesser of two evils. It is a matter of we deserve better than either of these worthless self serving political entities that are little more than parasites on US citizens.

We are in dire need of leadership for change. Obama is not strong enough to champion real change where we need it. However, on an impoverished people ruled by a corrupt narco state, he has shown he can open up a can of whoop-ass. At home he is impotent.

I'm leaving the dems behind and will watch with interest as democratic and republican leadership battle for the title of the world's biggest republican losers.

[defendandprotect]

210. Okay . .. don't wander off alone ...

Try to join with other liberals and progressives --

work on Plan B --


I claim the two mainstream political parties are not worth supporting and liberals trust in the democratic party is easily exploited. We have nothing to lose by pulling support of the democratic party and working within a new political framework.

We've been being told that for more than 30 years . . . !!

None the less, lots of Democrats have continued to fund the Democratic Party!!

Change needs to come from the outside at this point. I'm not a big fan of small independent actions - I remember "whip inflation now" buttons. We need to get in the face of politicians and cause them to lose money and cause them to lose elections if we don't get the change we demand.

Howard Zinn has always said that -- others, as well.

And, I agree.

However, I disagree re independent actions which are agreed upon WITH OTHERS and done along

with others.

Our elected officials are guaranteed now more corporate money than ever --

What we need to do is uninvent money in the political system --

I'm well aware that this is a minority viewpoint - but political differences between the two parties is rhetorical and emotive and really about brand association- Coke or Pepsi, Burger King or McDonalds, NBC or ABC or CBS.

It's really not -- it's what Michael Moore and Wm. Greider are talking about -- it's what

many of us talk about here. If we want to really change things we have to change what we are

doing.

Unfortunately, we also are voting on computers -- and our votes are being counted by computers!!


We are in dire need of leadership for change. Obama is not strong enough to champion real change where we need it. However, on an impoverished people ruled by a corrupt narco state, he has shown he can open up a can of whoop-ass. At home he is impotent.

TPB pick our candidates -- that's how I look at Obama.

Sadly, they don't wait for leadership to rise any longer before killing them --

What we have to begin to acknowledge is 50 years of en plaine air right wing political violence

which not only took a president from us but our "people's" government and our Democratic Party!

[amborin]

56. K&R

[Goldstein1984]

61. An organized resistance is the enemy

of those who control the wealth and guns.

The Masses are:
~Divided among and within the parties;
~Misinformed by corporate media;
~Distracted by entertainment;
~Manipulated through fear;
~And organized, at best, into warring factions more likely to turn on each other that on the Few.

On the other side, the Few are well organized, well funded, and firmly in control.

The only hope I see waits on the other side of much suffering.

I believe the Few spend a lot of time laughing about the Many.

[KT2000]

63. I witnessed miracles

in my lifetime. People actually changed themselves and accepted people of all races, our Congress actually voted for that abstraction called equality, people in the streets helped to stop a war, people thought before they relied upon stereotypes, the lid came off the roles of women in society.
People questioned themselves and their beliefs and opened society to more people to join in through higher education.

So many people tried to become better human beings.

I thought things would only get better.

But now, you are right. There is no pendulum. The powers that have consolidated are in control.

[Blackhatjack]

65. The Man With The Money Makes The Rules... Until The Man With The Gun Arrives....

If History has taught us anything, it is that Money buys ALMOST everything.

Exhibit A was the French Revolution, replete with lessons learned and forgotten.... which now may have to be re-learned.

[NAO]

148. The Men with the Guns are on the payroll of the Men with the Money

Well, I too have yearned for another Bastille Day. And while it's true that in general, you CAN guide the future by the past, there have been some very big developments that have radically changed the rules of the game.

I think our situation is different than that in any previous time in history.

The advanced state of military weaponry makes any type populist uprising nearly impossible. It has created a massive asymmetry between The Men with the Guns and ordinary men with guns. As Ruby Ridge survivor Rachel Weaver said, "You can have all the guns you want and it doesn't matter. If the government wants you dead, they can just firebomb your house from an attack helicopter". Even lots of ordinary men with lots of ordinary guns are no match for modern weaponry.

And making matters much worse, there are now PRIVATE "security" organizations (Blackwater, ABC Security, ad infinitum) that wield military weaponry but are in the employ of private corporations. Government armies are public institutions, whose soldiers are sworn to defend the Constitution, and feel loyal to their country and obligated to protect - not oppress, it's citizens. Private security personal are employees. They are eligible for pay raises and subject to termination. They are loyal to their employees and feel the acute need to save their "jobs" so as to protect their source of income. They are much less likely to side with the "citizenry" as government armies have sometimes done.

I have a bad feeling that the future holds a society with massive inequality and THREE classes: 1) The Wealthy; 2) The Private "Security" (read: Military) forces, who are a "middle class"; and 3) the masses in poverty.

Hope I'm wrong, but I think the guns and money situation has changed since The French Revolution and The October Revolution.

[David Zephyr]

207. Which would be just like the Pinkertons.

But Blackhatjack's point is also salient.

[Kitty Herder]

66. K&R

[LarryNM]

67. No Pendulum and No Left/Right

as much as there is those with wealth and power and those without it. And even more so, those who try and do what's right and those who do what's convenient.

[asdjrocky]

68. The whole argument between left and right,

Democrat and Republican, liberal and conservative, is all window dressing. On TV to entertain the masses, to distract and amuse just like the gladiatorial games of old.

It's about the few haves and the many, many have nots.

Until we look at the Forbes 400 as what it truly is, an enemy list, nothing real will ever change.

[Overseas]

70. K&R. Very well said !! //nt

[givemebackmycountry]

72. THIS is a great thread and a wonderful OP - Thanks DZ

I have learned so much, and have further confirmation in what I believe in my heart to be true.

WE - are in BIG trouble and one more Republican shot at the title (especially the wrong one) and we may done for good.

[flying rabbit]

77. Yes. n/t

[Kablooie]

79. I agree. I think we had better prepare ourselves for several decades of intense fascism.

It's coming at us at an ever increasing pace.

[Democat]

81. In many ways, the country has been getting more liberal every day

Corporations do not benefit from social conservatism. Even Fox knows that. Turn on Fox's non news channels to see how "conservative" their top rated shows are. Think back to America in the 1950s and tell me that this is a more socially conservative country today than it was then. Ask black people, gay people, women, children, animals, or anyone who likes movies or music whether the country is more conservative.

While I agree that corporations have more power today than ever, there are definitely many parts of American society that have moved far to the left of where they were - never to return to the right.

[AsahinaKimi]

82. They are certainly not going to go away...

Education seems to be a major problem.. People don't understand whats going on,.. Why would poor people applaud tax cuts for the rich? Its like shooting yourself in the foot. Why would people protest against health care? Its not that they are stupid, its that they are not educated enough to make a reasonable choice.

[snagglepuss]

87. Bookmarked and Recommended. nt

[Sherman A1]

90. We have been since at least the 1980's

and probably before that time. Remember the phrase "the silent majority"? Was that not code for conservative (white) base?

[Dragonfly]

218. Appreciate the historical perspective

and am in full agreement. Young people can help lead us out of this.

[Sherman A1]

222. Thanks Dragonfly

Someone needs to lead us out of this....

[Shining Jack]

91. K&R

I've noticed this dangerous trend a while back.

[spicegal]

95. I do agree with you....

The right wingers have been intent on destroying FDR's "New Deal" for generations. This has been a long term well organized, well orchestrated project. It's been a chipping away process, which has moved the country so far to the right that people start screaming socialism at the least little effort to move it back to the left. The right wingers figured out long ago the importance of winning hearts and minds, so established think tanks and then the infrastructure to dispense their propaganda. They knew it was the only way to get so many people to vote against their best interests, which would be required for them to remain in power long enough to radically alter the face of America. Propaganda works and it works well. I'm not sure why progressives/Dems haven't been able to find a way to counter the right wing onslaught, except to say that money and power usually win out. The right wingers have done everything from taking control of the media to dominating the judiciary. All of this has been part of their overall strategy.

[Enthusiast]

110. The reason

"progressives/Dems haven't been able to find a way to counter the right wing onslaught" is because we don't own the M$M. Right wing interests control the M$M-completely, even MSNBC. Those daily 3 or 4 hours of progressive TV we get on MSNBC are only a token. It does the right wing agenda little damage as they control the entire rest of the media.

[DailyGrind51]

104. Because "the right" manages to accomplish their agenda, when they are in power.

Our "leaders" always seek compromise and settle for failure.

[OnyxCollie]

116. K&R. nt

[Festivito]

118. More like a river being dammed from reaching the sea than a pendulum.

Occasionally, the damming gets so bad that the dam breaks and things like Social Security and Medicare create an unstoppable river as it did after 1929. But, they still try to reroute that river by putting building a private aqueduct, which would have failed in October 2009 dumping the rerouted water onto new land.

The Medicare river is being clogged with all the people thrown off the private aqueduct of denied heath insurance.

The river gets dammed with bodies of dead presidents and dead presidential hopefuls.

Now it gets dammed with money for Rush Limbaugh and ilk. Money for candidates. Money for the think tanks that choose the candidates.

It may not be a pendulum, but that dammed water needs to flow. Natural lakes of wealth are fine. What we have is not natural, it stagnates, it stinks worse and worse. The dam material begins to rot.

I don't care if you call it a pendulum, or a dam break, or something else, something has to change.

The water needs to flow out of these bad situations and reach all of US.

[Echo In Light]

119. Well put. K&R

[Ishoutandscream2]

120. Nailed it. Nothing more to say.

I've been waiting for that so called pendulum to move in the last 30 years, and it seems pretty stuck.

[SteveM]

125. You are quite right, of course. But MSM will have none of that...

I might add that the country is not "polarized," as polarization suggests at least 2 poles. We have one (1) pole: the Right. There is no effective "Left," there is no "populist" movement, there is not really much of a Democratic "Party." A party must have a bright-line policies and philosophies, expressed in brevity and clarity which can be used to attract voters and discipline elected officials. The GOP has this. The Democratic Party does not.

So, there. Three gross misconceptions, mumbled daily by MSM, have been deflated: swinging pendulum, "polarization," 2-party system.

[gtar100]

126. Our thinking of history is often far too short.

We should remember that authoritarian, right-wing type governments have been operating for thousands of years. Ever since the invention of the nation-state. Mostly under the guise of aristocracy. But it has always come down to the few controlling the masses for their own personal gain. Even the Enlightenment period was still smothered in Church doctrine; normal considering that was the shell in which we have need to escape from. What few rays of hope that have escaped have certainly changed a lot of things. That only goes to show what a powerful ideology that liberalism is. But right-wing, conservative principles have been the norm for a long, long time, shaped by the cultural standards of the day but always with the intent to maintain status quo and keep the wealth in the hands of the those who already have it.

I am in complete agreement - it's not about a pendulum. We need to ask ourselves, what is the world these conservatives envision and what is the inevitable consequences if they get their way. I believe even they don't know just what it is they're asking for. They dream of some utopia filleed with angels, happy children, and lions playing with lambs. In reality, what rises is a military-backed fascist system of rule that will use anyone and anything for its own ends, including these teabaggers.

[gtar100]

127. Our thinking of history is often far too short.

We should remember that authoritarian, right-wing type governments have been operating for thousands of years. Ever since the invention of the nation-state. Mostly under the guise of aristocracy. But it has always come down to the few controlling the masses for their own personal gain. Even the Enlightenment period was still smothered in Church doctrine; normal considering that was the shell in which we have need to escape from. What few rays of hope that have escaped have certainly changed a lot of things. That only goes to show what a powerful ideology that liberalism is. But right-wing, conservative principles have been the norm for a long, long time, shaped by the cultural standards of the day but always with the intent to maintain status quo and keep the wealth in the hands of the those who already have it.

I am in complete agreement - it's not about a pendulum. We need to ask ourselves, what is the world these conservatives envision and what is the inevitable consequences if they get their way. I believe even they don't know just what it is they're asking for. They dream of some utopia filleed with angels, happy children, and lions playing with lambs. In reality, what rises is a military-backed fascist system of rule that will use anyone and anything for its own ends, including these teabaggers.

[shireen]

128. "but the sad truth is that the American people are just too easily manipulated"

Yes, this is very true. And we must do everything we can to change this by fighting for better education that teaches critical thinking.

i cannot accept that we're steadily moving right and there's no chance it will change. I'm generally a doom and gloom pessimist, but I cannot resign myself to this rightward march. We owe it to the future generations to fight back. I love my nieces, nephews, and friends' children. They deserve better, and as long as i am alive, i will continue fighting for them.

[Hestia]

138. The Pendulum always swings "a move to the right is a move to the left"

Here's where the idiom comes from: http://kybalion.org

The whole idea is to not have the Pendulum swing too far. People collectively keep the Pendulum from swinging out of whack. The teabaggers are showing themselves for what they are - racist with no ideas whatsoever. The problem is, they vote in droves and that is what we need to counteract.

There is a very interesting article in this week's Rolling Stone - how the WH disavowed OFA and left us all out there swinging in the breeze. Highly recommended:

No We Can't
Obama had millions of followers eager to fight for his agenda. But the president muzzled them - and he's paying the price

TIM DICKINSON Posted Feb 02, 2010 9:27 AM

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/31961846/no_we_cant

It's going to take hard work to get us back on board (it always goes like that when when you get stabbed in the back). If he would only address us personally, not go on youtube and do a Q&A, apologize, then I think everyone will get into the fray. He doesn't have to apologize to me personally, just to all of us out here waiting to be asked. That's the first step.

[ProgressOnTheMove]

139. There's a pendulum and I'm going to push it if I have to do it myself. Even with the latest ruling..

we're going to pull it back, becuase we MUST pull it back. Despair is simply not an option, if there's a will for human survival we can turn it arouud.

[NAO]

143. "From the moment that Franklin Roosevelt died" ACTUALLY, IT STARTED WHILE FDR WAS STILL IN OFFICE

"From the moment that Franklin Roosevelt died, the crowd that hated him has wasted no time to return this nation back to its former status where aristocratic privilege was carved into the laws and enforced with a cruel boot."

Well, as a matter of fact they began planning it while FDR was still in office. There was a fully planned, well-financed fascist coup in the works. It was foiled by the testimony of General Smedley Butler, USMC.

Here's a post from another DUer:
Smedley Butler Stopped American Fascist Conspiracy to Overthrow FDR
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6150066&mesg_id=6150066

and here's the Wikipedia Article:
The Business Plot (aka the Plot Against FDR and the White House Putsch)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot

Although cons have disputed the neutrality of the Wiki article, the testimony before the US Congress is a matter of public record.

[defendandprotect]

145. Right wing violence and propaganda has worked over decades --

but this violence of the few vs the many is age old --

and will always be with us.

What we're really in a battle with is violence --

But to bring it more into current perspective, WWII is not over --

Those who want control over others -- those who want control over our nation's

wealth and resources -- will pursue those goals even in suicidal fashion.

Patriarchy, organized patriarchal religion and their system of capitalism are

based on exploitation of nature, natural resources, animal-life -- and even other

human beings according to various myths of "inferiority."

There is, of course, no pendulum --

And too many continue to sit in front of their TVs waiting for truth!!

[aquart]

146. Your lifetime is your experience?

So you weren't around for Teapot Dome? The recession of 1873? The riots of 1877?

You think labor laws arose because of left wing goodness and altruism and not utter crushing revulsion at the excesses of the greedy right?

I guess no one told you the length of the pendulum's swing.

[defendandprotect]

150. Been "alarmed" for more than 20 years now -- probably since '63 . ..

[Nederland]

152. How do you explain the shift in attitudes toward gay marriage?

There has been a distinct shift in favor of legalizing gay marriage over the last 20 years. Hell, 30 years ago the idea was so unthinkable you can't even find poll data on it. The same is also true of marijuana legalization, although the shift is slower and less dramatic. I would say that if there is a trend, it is toward greater freedom.

[David Zephyr]

213. Maybe I didn't address that enough.

I opened the O.P. with this: "I have witnessed the continual, steady rise of the radical right-wing throughout my life. It has had its bumps along the road, with a few setbacks, but whether it is our tax code, militarism, corporatism, freedom of the press, or civil liberties, the great strides made under the New Deal have been eroded methodically to a point that, frankly, is truly troubling."

Since I was in the vanguard of the GLBT struggle since 1970, just months after Stonewall here in Los Angeles, certainly we've seen some progress, the first big political victory coming when former Governor Jerry Brown's first act was to decriminalize homosexuality.

Still, this may sound very cynical, but the GLBT community is a market demographic that savvy corporations caught on that should not be ignored. Contrary to the popular stereotype, GLBT Americans make up some of America's poorest citizens. Not all GLBT live in high rise condos in West Hollywood or in Brownstones in The Village. So many, victimized throughout their lives, discriminated in employment, bullied and harassed in their most formative years live in the shadows in poverty and with sadly, but understandably mental disabilities from the cruelty they suffered. You won't see these on LOGO much or in the trendy magazines or in sitcoms.

There has been some progress not just for GLBT, but we celebrate the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act (something that might now be challenged again in Court just as the separation of corporate money from politics just was).

But in the aggregate, these meaningful social victories have not changed that steady march of money over people that began in the late 1940's reversing so much of what FDR set into motion.

Just thirty years ago, a family of eight could survive on a single breadwinner's income. College education was a real obtainable goal. Most Americans could see a doctor. The richest Americans were taxed up to 50% of their income which provided schools, road building, infrastructure, social services, a robust social security and Medicare system. People that worked did not slave away 50+ hours a week. Americans were buying homes, not losing them thousands by the hour as we are now. There were vibrant small businesses and stores from local camera stores and pharmacies to local sporting goods and independent grocers. Now? We have Wal-Mart. Our U.S. manufacturing base is, by some estimates, 10% of what it was 25 years ago.

And the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of our country has taken place, especially since 1980. We've had communism in reverse. And we now have the largest per capita prisoner population on earth of any industrialized nation. And prisons are a big business now.

So, while we trumpet our successes, we have lost far more than we have won.

[winyanstaz]

165. I agree....I have been watching that shift to the right for a long time now...

I had actually hope at one point that Obama would save us but as soon as he started appointing Bush people into high positions I knew we were so screwed.

Its sad to see those still holding on to the dream of change and that are in denial because I can fully understand their pain. It breaks my heart what has been done to America.

The sad part is...it is going to get a whole lot worse by this coming winter. Hang onto your hats, your wallets (if there is anything left in your wallets)try to stock up on food (grow a garden if you can too) and keep those you love near.

They will now do a few more things...some of which are already in the works....

*Try to "Privatize" Social Security..

*Try to come for the guns..

*Make it a crime to view the wrong web pages..

*Force more vacines

*National ID cards.

*Outlaw any questioning of 9-11 or of the government.

*Use the Military to police us..along with fbi, cia, city police, the sheriffs office, the county police, the state police, Highway patrol, FEMA, Blackwater and other hired killers and Homeland Security.
oops...guess that is already happening....

[defendandprotect]

177. There is NO legitimate switch to the right . .. any more thanT-baggers are

legitimate --

The right wing religious movement in America is a creation of the GOP and

right wing elites --

The VIOLENT Islamic teachings/textbooks are a creation of the US government and

shipping them into ME.

CIA created the Taliban and Al Qaeda and financed them up to 9/11 --

Overall, I'm as pessimistic as you are, but because of Global Warming which doesn't

give us forever to change things --

The last civil rights effort will be to overturn patriarchy -- organized patriarchal

religions and their system of capitalistic exploitation of the planet and humans --

Was watching a movie called "Country" last night about the farmers -- made in 1984.

This battle between elites and the masses has been going on since time immemorial!!

[winyanstaz]

214. Yes but never before in our own history have the masses had as much

going for them.
Better education and instant communication makes it harder for the same old games to be played.

[defendandprotect]

215. Okay . . . !!!

:evilgrin:

[county worker]

171. How did the last election fit into this picture?

It depends on who votes and who doesn't. Just wait until this coming November when Dems stay home in droves then complain that the right is taking over.

Just for a historical perspective, most of the things that we call conservative today were in place in the 50's and early 60's.

Women and minorities has no rights, abortion was illegal, schools were segregated, we were building up the military industrial complex, there was no medicare, on and on.

We had a progressive movement in my life time. The problem today is that young people would rather sit on their asses and blame everything and everyone else for what happens in their life. The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

[Echo In Light]

181. After Gore/Bush & Kerry/Bush, do you actually believe 'the people' control "elections?"

[county worker]

203. Why didn't they take the last presidential election?

There is a short term and a long term. We need to fight for the long term. That takes persistence which is something we don't have I'm afraid.

The right took since before Reagan to get to the place were Bush v Gore could happen.

They also plan how to cheat at elections. That takes some doing as we don't even have the actual evidence to get a conviction for that crime.

How is the left working for the long term rise of a progressive movement? I doubt it means as much to us as it does to the right.

[defendandprotect]

192. Well, I think liberals were resting after the 1960's . . . and violence of Kent State . ..

took a lot of kids back home to fearful parents --

Nixon got that one right!!

Look at this thread with Americans blaming other Americans for "stupidity" -- !!!

Just what the right wing sets out to do -- divide us!

We need new ways of protesting -- individual but united -- lights out -- pulling cars

over for 10-15 minutes -- and many other things we can do --

Where were our MEDICARE FOR ALL buttons for just one thing, letting one another know

how we truly feel?

Where are our "anti-war" buttons even now, letting each of us see how many of us are

opposed to wars!!???

Let's at least begin there!!

No one is going to stop fighting until they die -- that's the truth.

Especially for our children!!

[county worker]

197. I agree. Look at the great struggles in the past 50 years.

The movements were not about what it could do for me but what it will do for the future and for those who come after.

So many here are defeated even before they begin to fight. There is an attitude here that we must play a game and the opposition has the cards and we get dealt what ever poor hand they want to deal us.


If there is never an other progressive movement it won't be because of the deal from the opposition but because we passed the deal when it was our turn.

[defendandprotect]

209. Agree -- thank you!

:)

[Robb]

179. WTF is a "neo-fascist"?

[Echo In Light]

183. Neo-fascism in America

by Jim Macgregor

Bottom line, are the neo-cons driving this agenda neo-fascist? Dr. Lawrence Britt, a political scientist, published research on fascism <18> in which he examined the fascist regimes of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Suharto and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each fascist State:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarceration of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists; terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military are glamorized.

5. Rampant sexism - The government of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are intertwined - Government in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation are often the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated, or are severely restricted.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassinations of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Benito Mussolini - who knew something about fascism - had a more straightforward definition: "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power."

edit to include link:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Neo-fascism_America.html

[Robb]

194. LOL

...at anyone who uses the word "fascist" and the phrase "'red pill' reality."

[defendandprotect]

193. It means WWII isn't over ...

[RagAss]

217. This "pendulum' was ripped down and crushed on November 22, 1963.