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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:43 PM
Original message
Skinner's Post-Debate Post-Mortems
Edited on Fri Apr-27-07 04:03 PM by Skinner
I think it would be a mistake to pick one overall winner, because there was no clear winner. I think that most of the candidates probably feel pretty good about their performance; Nobody can claim a clear victory, but many of them can legitimately claim that they succeeded in doing what they wanted to: Raise their profile, get their message out, introduce themselves to the American people, show that they can be competitive at the highest level of American politics. I thought most of the candidates put on solid performances, and nobody made any gaffes.

Having said that, I will now proceed to pick winners and losers. These are just first impressions -- I'm throwing them out there for the fun of it. Your mileage may vary...

There was no winner but if I had to pick one I would pick: Obama. I think that all of the three "top tier" candidates (Obama, Clinton, and Edwards) put in solid performances. None of the three landed a punch against their opponents, and none of the three took any damage. IMHO, a "draw" is arguably a win for Obama. He is the guy with the least experience at this level, and the fact that he was (at very least) even with Clinton and Edwards reinforces the fact that he is the real deal and he is in this race to win it. It also puts to rest for good the idea that Hillary Clinton can lay claim to undisputed front-runner status. Obama is arguably the least well-known of the top three candidates, so he has the most to gain from a solid performance. And his performance was solid; he exudes smarts and charisma. Unfortunately, for all the people he gains with each public performance, he can expect to lose some people when he is forced to articulate positions on various issues that he has so far avoided taking a stand. His comments about the possible use of force with Iran probably lost him some votes among progressives that had previously been projecting their own viewpoints onto his blank slate.

The dark horse winner: Biden. His one-word reply to the question about his verbosity will be the only moment in the entire evening that anyone will remember tomorrow. He also seemed to show a lot more gravitas than I am used to seeing from him. He seemed confident and well-informed, and can make a genuine claim to being the real foreign policy expert in the field. After tonight I think he can make a legitimate claim to being the leading guy in the "second tier."

Solid performance: Hillary Clinton was overall solid, smart, and well-informed. Her delivery was pretty good -- obviously she isn't as charismatic as Obama, but I think she turned in one of her better performances. She can sometimes be rather affected in her public speaking, but she didn't seem that way tonight. I think she did what she wanted to do, and she can feel good about her performance.

Still third: John Edwards was the same John Edwards we got to know pretty well four years ago. Overall, he's a likable guy and his heart seems to be in the right place. He put in a solid performance, but he didn't do anything to change the perception (either positively or negatively) that he is the number-three candidate.

The Kucinich factor: I'll state right up front that I don't think Dennis Kucinich has much chance of being president this time, either. But he seems much more presidential this time around. He seems to have aged nicely in the last four years -- the lines on his face make him look more serious. Clearly, he is going to be the standard-bearer for the progressive wing, and I think he will be taken more seriously this time around. The presence of Mike Gravel in the race should help Kucinich seem more reasonable and mainstream.

The crazy old man: Mike Gravel. I love this guy, but not in the "I really want him to be president" way. He doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell, but he's got a lot of spunk, and he's positioning himself as the bomb-thrower in the campaign. Mostly, I think Gravel's purpose in the race is to provide an example of the out-of-control crazy lefty for other candidates to triangulate against and look moderate.

Didn't lose, but arguably may have lost by default: Bill Richardson. Before tonight I think he was the arguably the top guy of the "second tier" candidates. His performance tonight was fine. Solid, smart, competent. But he was not a stand-out, which helps Biden to make the claim that he is the real top guy of the second tier.

Not enough: Before tonight, I didn't really see any reason why Chris Dodd should be running for president. And after tonight I still don't see any reason. He seems like a decent fella, but he didn't catch fire tonight, and after tonight I can't really see him catching fire.

There it is.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good wrapup--agreed with your rankings!
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. Perfect Analysis.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. I think people will remember the "bejesus" moment from Gravel.
And his "we don't have important enemies" remark.

Sorry, your synopsis is well thought out, but I'm a simpleton who loves the drama this early on.

I hope Gore gets into the race, anyway.
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kiteinthewind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:50 PM
Original message
Gore would easily suck the O2 out of the room! Fingers crossed! nt
:toast:
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
22. Don't you mean CO2?
:evilgrin:

(Woohoo, smilies are back!)
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kiteinthewind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
49. Clever you are!!
;-)
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. they won't remember them if the media doesn't talk about them
and it won't, much.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Yeah, but he might be youtubed. nt
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. nice assessment
I am far from making a choice on my candidate. I have a secret favorite but I will support whomever our party nominates. It's a long road ahead. The end is way out of sight for me right now.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. the "kucinich factor" is so far the best reason I can think of...
...to vote for a democrat. I'll be very interested in what the Green Party does in 2008.

Yes, as you implied, I'm looking for a "progressive standard-bearer."
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. Serious Question:
Edited on Thu Apr-26-07 08:50 PM by Blue-Jay
If we invite Gravel to DU, do you think that he'll TYPE IN ALL CAPS?

OK. That wasn't really serious.

Still, I don't think that Obama did as well as you seem to think, and I'm an "Obama-guy". He didn't lose any points, but he didn't gain any points either. In my opinion, the polls will see a slight gain for Edwards, and a slight loss for Sen Clinton. Everyone else will remain the same as yesterday. Want to bet a dollar, Skinner? :D
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
39. I tend to agree with your assessment of Obama.
I don't think he was a stand-out, and I don't think he did much better than any of the other candidates. But I think a toss-up is arguably a win for Obama, because compared to the other candidates he is relatively inexperienced and relatively unknown.
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
95. GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!!1111
:rofl:

That's still cracking me up.
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. Sad, that in a supposed "level" playing field this early we already have "tiers"....
Guess I'm going to be the short end of the primaries... because everyone I like is apparently not "top shelf".... :(

MZr7
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. There's no such thing as a level playing field.
The party power structure and the media do the narrowing. If you don't like their choices, you're just along for the ride. But don't worry, I'm right there with you along riding. And I won't ever give up fighting for the candidate that will tell the truth unabashedly and isn't owned by anyone that wants to own this country and its treasury.
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. Word up... peace. -nt
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. I think Obama spends too much time in every 'answer' talking about WHO he is ...
... and what his values are. Maybe I've got "Bush fatigue" (I do - I had it in early 2000), but I'd like him to be far more focused and definitive. There's just too much of a setting around the diamonds.

Kooch is virtually 100% aligned with both my values and my long-term stance against the "war" ... without the slightest doubt. He doesn't have to tour the land of "woulda-shoulda-coulda" since he DID. His health care position is the best and his Iraq withdrawal 'plan' is the best.

I generally agree on all the other candidates. Biden did better than I wanted him to.

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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. What TN said!
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. Obama is fine, and he will get even better in the upcoming months.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
30. I thought Obama was very UNEVEN, which underscored his lack of experience.
Edwards was steady and strong. Hillary didn't hurt herself, but didn't stand out, beyond getting the majority of bites of the apple during the first half of the debate.

I'm settling very comfortably into an Edwards/Obama ticket.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. I just don't like Edwards' health care 'plan' ... too pandering and ripe for corruption.
I'm inclined to favor the "Medicare-for-all" approach - and the first of the 'all' would be all elected and appointed federal officials. Politicians.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
44. I think that is a deliberate strategy by the Obama campaign.
They are selling the man, not a set of policies. And I think Obama is benefitting from the fact that he is something of a blank slate, and people project their own beliefs onto him.

Whenever he articulates a position on anything, he risks alienating people who were attracted to him because of his personality.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. I think I'd have to agree it is ... and, sadly, it doesn't appeal to me.
Edited on Thu Apr-26-07 09:39 PM by TahitiNut
I don't much care how pretty the poke is.


One of the "political truths" I've learned in my years on the dirt is that 'members' of a group stand the biggest chance of going against the 'interests' of that group and getting away with it.

LBJ made the most progress in civil rights (past Ike and the Warren Court) because he WAS a "Southern Democrat" and Nixon make enormous advance in opening up China and protecting the environmnet BECAUSE he was a known commie-hater and part of the "business party." The Chimp gets a pass on HUGE deficits because he's part of the "anti-deficit right."

Thus, I'm under no delusion that the presumptions of political and soocial advocacy based on some 'group' identifier is absolutely no assurance that progressive reforms are on the menu.
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #44
119. I agree with you to a point
I do think it is deliberate but not necessarily to not risk alineating those attracted to his personality. I believe that his campaign realizes that he is still a relatively unknown nationally and they are still introducing him and trying to establish who he is to the many that don't know. Political wonks like us have done our homework but most people know very little about him.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #44
121. Mondale's disastrous
victory with "Where's the beef?" showed how the grindingly perilous issues parsing still one-ups the charismatic blowover- in our party at least. And the media can do that with or without a detailed platform Dem taking Obama apart. Still, Obama seems to have that survivability quotient that served past popular candidates well, like Clinton or RFK. That depends on the voters and how much passion can outweigh doubt- this year a very tangible doubt for anyone with a recent memory.

It seems like a fair start for anyone, but for crying out loud can't the DNC start out with Moyers or someone neutral at all. Doing the RW low hurdles for the sake of corporate media exposure is more regrettable than necessary. And for all the publicity one barely heard it was happening even on DU's front pages. Maybe it is something about the new posting structures but real key events like testimonies and speeches sometimes don't even appear upfront and even large threads get lost. Worse, in those threads we seem to have more and more contributions with zero references or descriptions of what is happening.
Maybe it's just me and I couldn't get to a broadcast in time. Of course the DNC homepage seems not to acknowledge the mere existence of the first debate.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
10. That's about how I see it....
Especially with Gravel and Kucinich. Both reach out and take the risk in effort to inform the voter. Biden was sharp and on his game. Obama had the best answer regarding an immediate attack on 2-cities. Hillary was best on immigration.

I'm going to watch it again. I had several interruptions/phone calls from Emily who was out shopping for a prom dress with my card! I'm out $400 as of this post. :wtf:
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
11. You know, it says a lot about the stupidness (as opposed to stupidity) of this period in American
history, that the "out-of-control crazy lefty" radical is actually not all that out of control or crazy, but everyone seems to think he is.

Kucinich is STILL seen as extreme, and he's the one who has been right about almost everything.

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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. And what about the possible wild card - a late Gore entry?
Where would he fit in?

But, I guess, absent a candidacy announcement and the fact that he didn't participate tonight, it's irrelevant to this thread.
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
13. I thought Obama seemed nervous and inexperienced
Also a bit bland. I didn't hear any of the fire I heard when he announced he was running. I can't remember one answer he gave that really stood out. But I'm not giving up on him. I agree with your assessment of Kucinich, though, and Biden did better than I expected.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
15. Excellent analysis, Skinner, although I give Edwards more credit.
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Yeppers! It's Still Edwards For Me... n/t
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. It's still Obama for me, though.
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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
38. I'm with Chici...Edwards.
I'm with John all the way to the nomination.
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #38
115. Goody-Goody! He's A;; THAT! IMO!
I always feel the NEED to add IMO, because of the very many attacks that have been pointed at Edwards.

And yes, Clinton has gotten her share too... but as I see it Edwards has gotten some rather "off the wall" attacks. I actually do want to know if anyone KNOWS how much other candidates pay for their hair-cuts!

Sure, $400.00 smackers is far beyond what I would even consider at any time, but contrary to what many have posted... it's NOT an issue that makes me go into a tizzy. Just like the stuff a long time ago about Bill Clinton and his hair cut "thingey!"

Seems they are distractions for the most past, and actually firmed up MY support for Edwards because it got so over-blown (pun intended) and Richardson in almost his FIRST answer last night made a reference to "some" blow-dry candidates. Richardson LOST me then and there, and I had considered him as a possible GOOD CHOICE for VP.

Sorry Bill, you could have skipped that one.
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #15
80. I thought Edwards would be stronger. Not to be anti but, he just seemed off tonight.
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #80
125. How was Obama, in your opinion? n/t
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
16. This Time I Disagree With You... I Really Really Wanted Obama
to make his case, but thought he wasn't "all that" and I truly like him. In fact, for me I'll stick with my Edwards/Obama ticket for now.

I doubt ANYTHING will be changed by tomorrow morning though.

Biden was the best tonight as far as I'm concerned, but we need to have someone who will get elected and MSM ain't gonna let it happen.

I'm done for tonight!

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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
21. About Gravel
It was just so great to have somebody off the leash.
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umtalal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
23. Obama bored me. Kucinich was interesting to listen to. n/t
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. The problem with Kucinich
is that nobody takes him seriously.
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umtalal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. this voter does. I also like Edwards because Elizabeth is a hero of mine. n/t
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. not true-- he's the best hope for the dem party and America, IMO....
Is that serious enough?
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. That sounds like a right wing talking point
Dennis isn't a handsome man but he has ALL the right answers.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #36
51. It's not a right wing talking point. It's reality.
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. I do.
I'm not alone.
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Reterr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #26
104. I take him seriously
Actually I don't take Obama or Edwards seriously. Pretty boys banking on their "cute factor" :eyes:.
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
64. Agreed.nt
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
24. I agree with your analysis,
but I have to say that Biden took me completely by surprise. I thought he was the winner, hands down, and I'm still scratching my head over it.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
29. I actually changed my mind tonight
Edited on Thu Apr-26-07 09:14 PM by Mojorabbit
at least for now. I was leaning Obama but Richardson gave the answers I wanted to hear and I am giving him a second look. He didn't pussyfoot around like many of the top tier candidates did in answering questions.

and on edit...hubby who is totally apolitical liked Richardson best tonight too which totally took me by surprise. I use him to guage the average sound bite American. What really interested me is that he did not like any of the candidates who were in a big hurry to strike back hard on the attack on America question. That question got the biggest reaction out of him.

He liked Kuchinich's pocket constitution prop, and howled at the senator from Alaska and said he was the most "real" of them all.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
79. I have another one of those husbands
Apolitical, calls himself an Independent, voted for Kerry.

He liked Edwards best, but couldn't explain why. Just a feeling, I guess. He also loved Kuch's Constitution--said he must have gotten it from Sen. Byrd. Also liked Gravel--but then that's just good theatre--anyone would.

I was less impressed with Obama than I expected to be. Clinton still grates on my nerves, and I don't trust her to be honest. Edwards was good, but not great. Biden seemed the smartest, followed closely by Richardson--although they aren't as liberal as I'd like. I like Dodd but honestly can't remember anything he said tonight. Kucinich as predictable, and Gravel a side-show. That's my take.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
31. Disagree with you on Dodd, I think he can offer much of what we want if he
Edited on Thu Apr-26-07 09:07 PM by wisteria
was only given more media play.

You comments about the front runners really say nothing at all about them. And, as for Obama, I disagree with your comments that he is the least well known. Are you actually talking about the same Obama that has gotten more great press and walk on water status than any candidate I have ever seen?
I want to see what he does when he is really challenged.

Biden sounded good, but at least one time he took credit for something he did not do and that was lead the fight against Alito. Senator Kerry did that and only after the committee Biden was on gave the guy a kiss and a free pass. Biden spent his time on committee talking about his college days.

All in all, I thought no one shined and gave anyone anymore reason to vote for them.
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AikidoSoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
32. I wonder what you would say of Gore's chances if he should leap into the fray....
He seems to have it all..... or as close to "all" as it gets.
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Gelliebeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
35. I agree with you
on all the points you made.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
40. Edwards is the number-three candidate? I thought he was the frontrunner.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
41. Thanks for the recap. I missed the debates.
Do you think any of the campaigners will drop out of the race within the next week or so?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
42. Thank you for checking in
:hi:

"Obama....And his performance was solid; he exudes smarts and charisma. Unfortunately, for all the people he gains with each public performance, he can expect to lose some people when he is forced to articulate positions on various issues that he has so far avoided taking a stand."

Yup.

Constructive non/criticism: when GD: P discusses him, the True Believers already know what they know and don't articulate it, unless it's to provide a link...... DU could use some discussion of what Obama actually stands for beyond "smarts and charisma" and acknowledgment that the need is there (I know that's not under your control, just sayin'-- IMHO it would benefit the board, the Dems and the candidate...................)


"The Kucinich factor:.......Clearly, he is going to be the standard-bearer for the progressive wing, and I think he will be taken more seriously this time around. The presence of Mike Gravel in the race should help Kucinich seem more reasonable and mainstream."

Okay so there is a "progressive wing" and there is a "standard bearer" and both may seem unreasonable and non-mainstream?

:shrug:

"There it is."

Amadeus. much? :hug:

How's that baby?

:kick:
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
43. Isnt Edwards the front runner in Iowa?
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
45. So... who will Clinton or Obama pick for VP? Biden or Richardson?
I sat. I watched. I'm pretty impressed with the bunch we have.
But...

Gore/Clark '08!!
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. If I were choosing between Biden and Richardson for Vice President
I would pick Richardson. Biden doesn't bring anything of value to the ticket, IMO. He's from a small state on the solid-blue East Coast, and he might upstage you at campaign events.

Richardson, on the other hand, is a westerner which helps on the regional thing, and he's Hispanic, which would help energize an important part of the Democratic base.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #48
63. I like the way Richardson adds both balance and contrast
I'm very happy seeing him take a national role in our party.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #63
103. Richardson is Pro-Death
I will never vote for nor work for anyone who's pro-death...
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #103
108. I've never met a politician
or even a citizen who was 'pro-death'.

Personally, I think death has its certain attractions, but I've never heard anyone advocate for it.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-28-07 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #108
128. This is what I mean by pro-death
Edited on Sat Apr-28-07 04:20 PM by ProudDad
Supports death penalty: zero tolerance for heinous crimes
NO on replacing death penalty with life imprisonment
YES on making federal death penalty appeals harder
NO on maintaining right of habeus corpus in Death Penalty Appeals

He's a blood thirsty fuck... No vote, no help...from me

----

He's also an exteremely pro-corporate tool -- Pro NAFTA, GATT, WTO, etc. He's also another asshole, idiot pro-drug war clown.

No chance for any help from me if this guy gets nominated. I'll vote Green.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Bill_Richardson.htm


In fact, since I'll be living in AZ by the time the '08 election rolls around, if he's the candidate, that could cost him Arizona!
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
47. It left me as undecided as I was before the debate
I wasn't overly impressed or unimpressed with any of them.
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ElizabethDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
50. I agree with most of your points, but
I was very underwhelmed by Obama. I thought both Hillary and Edwards did better than he did.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. You are no fan of Obama, you said in another post...
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ElizabethDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Well, he's not a favorite of mine
Edited on Thu Apr-26-07 09:46 PM by ElizabethDC
but I can still look at him relatively objectively. I think he's very good at giving speeches - I've seen him give a speech in person, and he was excellent. So I'll give him credit where credit is due. I thought his performance tonight was mediocre, and other people that I've talked to both during and after the debate (non-DU people, FWIW) told me that they felt the same way.

Also, almost everything you post is in support of Obama, so there's no doubt where your sympathies lie. We all have our biases one way or another, but even the undecided people I talked to tonight (one of whom was leaning toward Obama) didn't think he did very well.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Check out the MSNBC opinion polls
The results are very interesting.
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ElizabethDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. I saw them, but I think they're just indicative of the fact that Obama has good web support
really, I think it has little to do with his performance tonight.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. I have seen Obama speak live twice and met him for a second once
And he doesnt blow me away like I'm supposed to be blown away. Hes not bad, but I dont see what all the mania is about.
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ElizabethDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. I've seen him speak live as well, and I also met him
when I saw him, his speech was excellent, but when I met him, he was actually quite rude, which I was quite surprised by. He was selectively paying attention to some people and completely ignoring others, even though there were only about 10 people there. It was odd, but maybe he was just having an off day, so I'll give him a pass on that one.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. I met him in a large crowd and he was mobbed
Edited on Thu Apr-26-07 09:56 PM by LSK
I only got to shake his hand and say "thank you Senator" and he was whisked away by his handlers.

Dick Durbin took time to take a photo with me, but nobody seemed to care about him much.
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #61
81. I saw him live at his announcement speech in Springfield.
He was awesome. Very strong and a great speech.
The one I liked best by him was the one I saw on cspan at the Harkin steak fry last summer. that was a hell of a speech. It really got to me.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #60
105. I suspect like most of them
with the notable exception of Dennis Kucinich, they're interested in people with money or influence (same thing).

They've got no use for us plebeians.
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. Heh captured my sentiments in a nutshell
I think he is a good enough speaker, but he uses too many cliches and hackneyed phrases for my liking. And I find the hype inexplicable. I have seen him on CSPAN twice where he kept on and on about Abraham, Moses, Jesus -the Democratic Party being like Moses and some other random crap like that-I was bored to tears.

I really like people who stick to making their political points without all this allegorical crap. If you can make your points without invoking Abraham and Jesus and dragging in your grandfather, more power to you I say. I can't help thinking that if he were less good-looking and I guess "charismatic", no one would be making such a fuss about him :shrug:.

But then, I never get how people pick what they like in a speech. I always thought Kerry was a good speaker and I was apparently in a minority.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. He gave a good speech at the '04 convention. Reminded me of Clinton.
He used lots of lofty, inspiring rhetoric, had a great delivery and didn't actually say anything.

I don't have anything against him, but I don't think the ability to say nothing prettily qualifies one to be president.
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #68
74. Heh yeah
And the amount of hyper Christian rhetoric (at least the few times I have listened to him) he uses scares me a little. But, I guess thats the same thing that makes him "electable" not one of those "God-hating Democrats" :shrug:-...
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. That bothers me too.
Edited on Thu Apr-26-07 10:21 PM by LeftyMom
I don't mind the occasional biblical metaphor any more than I mind any other reference to classical literature and mythology. Constant god talk is another story- if I want to go to church there are five within walking distance. I really don't need anybody to bring church to me, and the assumption that doing so is welcome is bothersome and ill-mannered at best, and outright offensive at worst.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #62
69. I think Kerry is a good speaker too
I guess we are just two of a kind.

:hi:
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. And the hardcore crowd on the JK forum here
;) :hi:
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #72
84. yup!
he remains my favorite speech-giver! :hi:
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #62
96. No you are not in the minority- Senator Kerry delivers good speeches. The media
just had to present Senator Kerry in a dark light to make up for Bush weakness' as a talker and speaker.
I personally love Senator Kerry's speeches.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
52. What utter bullshit
The Kucinich factor: I'll state right up front that I don't think Dennis Kucinich has much chance of being president this time, either. But he seems much more presidential this time around. He seems to have aged nicely in the last four years -- the lines on his face make him look more serious. Clearly, he is going to be the standard-bearer for the progressive wing, and I think he will be taken more seriously this time around. The presence of Mike Gravel in the race should help Kucinich seem more reasonable and mainstream.

Yeah, fuck values. Fuck a stance. Fuck anything more than how he "looks" right?

For fucks sake...when do we run Pamela Anderson? She's "aged nicely" and can probably garner the proper demographic.

BULL-SHIT.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #52
83. guess one of the "progressives" has weighed in here
Your commentary is bitter and lacks substance as to why Kucinich is a better candidate.

4 fucks and a bullshit in 32 words?
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. That's it?
That's your "commentary" as you stated?

Wow. That's um...weak.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #86
100. Don't you just hate it
when people don't respond with a substantive reply to your thoughts? It's a sign of a weak, petty mind, imo.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #83
98. Correct
:thumbsup:
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #83
106. Ok, Here's why Kucinich is the best candidate
I want to inspire America to take a new path, a different direction.

I envision an America which has the capacity to reconnect with the heart of the world; an America which proceeds in the world optimistically and courageously. An America which understands that the world is interdependent, that it is inter-connected, and that what we do today impacts future generations.

I want to break the shackles of fear which have deprived our citizens of rights. We need to change the way this country values humanity, so that instead of fear and lies, we can live our lives based on principles of peace and hope. We need to regain the trust of the American people and we need to have a government which trusts the American people.

It's time for America to resume its glorious journey; time to reject shrinking jobs and wages, disappearing savings and rights; time to reject the detour towards fear and greed. It's time to look out upon the world for friends, not enemies; time to counter the control of corporations over our politics, our economy, our resources, and mass media.

It's time for those who have much to help those who have little, by maintaining a progressive tax structure. It's time to tell the world that we wish to be their partner in peace, not their leader in war. Most of all, it is time for America to again be the land where dreams come true, because the government is on the side of its people.

Dennis J. Kucinich

Ten Key Issues

1. Universal Health Care
2. International Cooperation: US out of Iraq, UN in
3. Jobs and Withdrawal from NAFTA and WTO
4. Repeal of the "Patriot Act"
5. Guaranteed Quality Education, Pre-K Through College
6. Full Social Security Benefits at Age 65
7. Right-to-Choose, Privacy and Civil Rights
8. Balance Between Workers and Corporations
9. Environmental Renewal and Clean Energy
10. Restored Rural Communities and Family Farms


The major difference between Kucinich and the others is the he REALLY means it -- he's not just blowing smoke to fool the people for their big money corporate donors.
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Buttercup McToots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #106
110. Gosh
I really like this man...
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Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
53. The format prevented meaningful comparisons between the candidates...
Take Hillary's questions and exchange them for Edwards's questions and you would have seen a different performance by both. (How would Hillary have come off answering questions about Hedge Funds and her haircut?)

Obama was not sharp but he will get better as time goes on.

Edwards is the electable candidate of the bunch who can reach the independents/undecideds and unaffiliated voters.
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InvisibleTouch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #53
94. Please tell me they didn't ask Edwards...
...about his haircut???!

I was at a class and missed the debate, sorry to say. Anyone know if it's on the web somewhere?
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cui bono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #94
107. complete video is on msnbc.com n/t
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Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #94
116. Yep Edwards got the Hedge Funds and Haircut questions.... think he could ignored any better?
It is hard being fair and equal to 8 candidates with a limited time schedule, but really think about the questions asked of certain candidates and those asked of others --not really a debate at all.
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #116
123. The Best Thing About The Questions To Him Last Night Regarding
HAIR & HEDGE... it's just might be DONE & OVER with!

Hangin with Edwards!!!
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koopie57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #94
120. Who asked Mrs. Edwards
about the haircut? Her answer made sense and there are times when I spend money for convenience. I was hoping she would say that John was a good tipper *LOL*.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
55. I really object to the whole horse race analysis.
Edited on Thu Apr-26-07 09:46 PM by LeftyMom
I don't want to hear who exceeded expectations or presented well or whatever, I want to hear who was inspiring, who had a good plan, in short who ought to be president. Losing sight of that trivializes the democratic process, and we get enough of that from the media.

Let's set a good example for the rest of the electorate and talk about issues that matter, and not get hung up on the race itself.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #55
66. That would be nice.
That said...enjoy your 7 day vacation.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #66
73. We're too young to be old and cynnical, love.
I think that's why I like DK, I feel like he might just be able to keep the country out of the shitter (or at least stupid wars) for a few years if people listened to him. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I think that feeling alone is valuable.

That, and I really want to see a Tofurkey pardoned on the White House lawn.
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Reterr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #73
87. Oh please
Edited on Thu Apr-26-07 11:00 PM by Reterr
The last thing the Whitehouse needs is one of you sickly vegan types and anyway everyone knows vegans are terrorists and hate America or something-or else why are so many of them on the terror watch list? They are as bad (if not worse) than those durn peace activists. I want a manly man in the WH, who eats 'is meat raw and drops bombs on them middul easturn people. Like muh beloved preznit Jorge Dubya Bush:




Now theres a guy I can have a beer and he ain't eating no stinki' vegtabuls. 4 more years! 4 more wars!


(As an aside Tofurkey is too tasty to be pardoned. I would eat it all up ;).)
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. Tofurkey is pretty good stuff. I really like the sausages best though.
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Reterr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. That looks delicious
And hard ;). I am lazy and I don't cook. But I got this (the first one) for thanksgiving for myself and the SO:
http://www.tofurky.com/products/tofurkyfeasts.htm

The dumplings etc. were delicious too. Its a little on the expensive side but I got it free. My university has (of all things) a free turkey giveaway every Thanksgiving and after two years of whining and making a fuss my fellow Veg*ns and I get a free Tofurkey now :D. They gave quite a few of them away this year-tofurkey demand is rising every year :bounce:.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:24 PM
Original message
I always make lentil loaf on Thanksgiving.
Making the terducken was more something we did for fun, to be able to say we did it. That it was tasty as well was something of a nice bonus.

That's really cool that your school gives away tofurkeys. We don't even have much in the way of food to eat on campus. :(
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 06:02 AM
Response to Original message
109. Thank god
you were able to inject your dietary preferences into this thread. :thumbsup:
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. Off topic but
that looks delicious.. I love Tofurky.

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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. We had pie too, but I missed getting a pic of it.
It was delicious. :)
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #55
113. Asking who did best is hardly obfuscating the issues or paralyzing debate
If you want to focus discussion on the issues, you have the freedom to post a thread about it. I may as well say discussion of dietary preferences distracts and divides DUers, and we have enough of that already. But of course I wouldn't.

B-)
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #55
114. I have to say
that's a really naive view of politics.

Being inspiring or having a good plan doesn't equate to being a good President.

I think Skinner's analysis was spot-on. I disagree with him on a few of the lesser candidates, but that's just academic at this point. He's right on the top level.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
65. Obama did well. Not perfect but held his own. However he isn't electable
in a general election. Many DUers will disagree with me on this and I'd welcome being proven wrong but America in a general won't even in an honest election pick a black President. It's too soon. We as a country are closer but not much to picking a woman. I don't see that as a possibility now either. But of course this is the first winnowing process (as bad an excuse for a 'debate' as this was) and unfortunately has become a perverse rite of passage, and we deal with what we have in the aftermath.

At any rate, it seems pretty clear to me that any of the 8 people we saw tonight would be orders of magnitude better at the helm of the Ship of State than the current pegleg moron we're stuck with until January 09. I wouldn't have any
problem supporting any one of them against...McCain? Ghouliani? etc.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. So black Americans should forget for the moment about the presidency
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. Not at all 'forget' about it. I would vote for Obama with absolutely no qualms
but in that demographic I am in the minority. You probably are too. What we'd like to be and what is are not always the same thing.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #71
77. Changes need to be pursued, not waited for
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #77
85. I absolutely agree but I still prefer to address reality as it exists.
I'm firmly in the NGU camp. We live in a world where bad things happen in the blink of an eye and good things take time. I don't know why that is - if you can explain it to me I will be very grateful. :D
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #65
82. He scores the highest of all our candidates across the board. more than electable.
that is a straw horse. People of all walks of life are supporting him including southern, white and republican. He scores the best of all our candidates and is found to be the most electable.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #65
97. I really do think you're wrong about the Af. American thing.
Seriously.

I know there are plenty of people who won't vote for an Af. Am. to be Prez. But for the most part those are people who wouldn't vote for a Democrat, anyway. And some of them would hold their noses and vote for him, if he were the Dem. candidate, but they wouldn't like it.

And there are also lots of people who wouldn't vote for every one of the other leading candidates for one reason or another. Lots would never vote for a woman. Lots would never vote for someone McCain's age. Lots would never vote for a "pretty boy" like Edwards. Lots would never vote for an hispanic like Richardson.

For the Dem. candidate to win, s/he has to get most of the Dem. votes, plus some of the Independents. Obama, Af. Am. though he is, already has more votes, according to the polls, than any of the white male Dem. candidates....AND more votes, according to the polls, than a number of the Republican candidates...who are all white males.

So ipso facto...the numbers prove that the votes are as much there for THIS Af. American as for any other candidate. Those are just the cold, hard numbers.
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
70. Do you remember Jon Stewart saying on Crossfire
Edited on Thu Apr-26-07 10:44 PM by nam78_two
(when asked about the 2004 Dem. Prez. candidates)
"I thought Al Sharpton was very impressive. I enjoyed his way of speaking. I think, oftentimes, the person that knows they can't win is allowed
to speak the most freely, because, otherwise, shows with titles, such as CROSSFIRE or "HARDBALL" or "I'm gonna Kick Your Ass" will jump on it."

Thats how I always feel after watching these things. To me Kucinich and Gravel were the most impressive-of course I guess neither of them has a chance in hell realistically speaking. And I must be the only Democrat who finds Obama completely unimpressive as a speaker :shrug:.

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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
75. I found it underwhelming overall...
Maybe it's just my mood, or that it's early for a debate, or that we don't have an opponent as we did before, but I feel none of the excitement I did in 1999 and 2003. (Disclaimer: I am and was a Clark supporter, but I was excited even before he decided to enter the race last time -- I loved hearing and watching all the Democrats.)

First, the debate questions are largely absurd. I can't stand the attempts at "gotcha." (And why Brian Williams is considered better than anything Fox and the CBC would cosponsor is beyond me!) Who can forget Ted Koppel; but starting out with this approach tonight seemed tiresome, I guess.

Second, the time limits and switches of "topic" (from one "gotcha" to another) gives no opportunity for in-depth discussion, and deeper discussions are really needed right now. Again, I know it's the nature of the beast, but I'm hearing the same platitudes over and over again and I want to hear at least a quick explanation of the HOW's of these stances. I want to hear questions that press for greater depth, beyond what's in campaign speeches and on websites, and it all seems shallow to me right now.

Third, without that substance and the differences it clarifies, it's so much about sales-skills and appearance and elements of pageants and performance competitions. I find it depressing.

Having said that, and judging on the little we saw and heard tonight in this particular format....

I thought Clinton and Edwards seemed the most poised.

I was disappointed in Dodd and Richardson.

I've always thought Biden was a good talker, but his policies beg a lot of questions and somehow he strikes me as annoyingly arrogant.

I thought Obama did fine -- not as well as you thought he did -- but I agree that he can't stay a blank slate forever.

I thought Kucinich was very good. I liked his adding words like compassion and healing to the debate on the topic of war.

Gravel, it seems to me, is a nut. I was completely unfamiliar with him, but I fear his presence will trivialize the process, create a level of discomfort that isn't helpful, and interfere with the kind of, well, discomfort that IS helpful. He's like a blend of Ralph Nader, Zell Miller, and somebody's crazy uncle. I don't see him bringing anything positive to the process, and hope he exits soon.
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
78. I agree. Now go out and tell MSNBC who keep trashing Obama
and gushing on Hillary.
I think your assessment is good. I don't like Hillary but, was impressed by her solid performance.
I thought Obama did best but, I am bias.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
89. I can agree w/your assessment, but this is Round One...
Takes a little time to shake off the "jitters", some do it better than others.

Hillary has to come off as anything but shrill, (she was not shrill tonight, intelligent and calm), Obama has to find two messages that resonate, Edwards is a nice guy, and hbe needs to hammer home two serious points that people can attach themselves to....the rest, might as well fall out soon and get some momnetum for the top 3.

Next week when the GOP comes up to bat, it should look a little different...sort of like bats leaving the cave to feed. But once they get some points out that our folks can contest, this will take off.

I've never seen this stuff take off so early...:eyes:
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
91. My husband said Richardson sounded like a Republic.
Edited on Thu Apr-26-07 11:24 PM by MyPetRock
He asked me, why do you like this guy? I have to admit that after his performance tonight I like him not so much.

He was never my first choice. Of the candidates currently running, I prefer Edwards. I did think that Richardson might have a better chance of winning in the general than Clinton and Obama though.
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jodini Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #91
124. Richardson
I agree...he seemed a little like the cowboy we already have in the White House. The highest rated candidate (republican or democratic???) by the NRA? That was enough to put me off my dinner right there. I thought I would like him better than I did. Another surprise for me was that, although I'm not ready to commit to anyone, I was really digging Edwards. He had decent answers (just like they all did). I just got a feeling of genuineness and a little less rehearsal. Didn't like how so many of them resorted to their talking points rather than answering the questions directly. Also don't understand why the immediately didn't put the smack down on the whole "war is lost" brouhaha. Why is it so difficult to provide the full quote which would have made clear that Reid said "if it continues to be managed this way". Also thought a better response would have been "not lost, OVER".
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populistdriven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
99. KICK! (for Obama!)
Edited on Thu Apr-26-07 11:47 PM by bushmeat
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Hidden Stillness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
101. Most Pleasant Surprise: Biden (!!)
The biggest surprise of the evening for me was Biden--I thought Biden was fabulous, and I am usually disappointed, and do not really support Biden usually. Tonight, though, Biden was clear and smart, witty, (the response to the "your mouth gets you in trouble" question), and was the only one who really seemed to grasp the threatening significance of the Supreme Court's killing of the availability of late-term abortions for medical emergencies, (which Brian Williams bizarrely called "partial-birth abortions," even though there is no such thing). Biden was the original author of the Republican-killed Violence Against Women Act, and is sometimes surprisingly on-target, smart and brave--I was really impressed tonight. Also, Biden's comment at the end, that Kucinich's and Gravel's "let's make friends with all the world" was silly and not real was, unfortunately, right. I was surprised and impressed by Biden, who I am usually disappointed by. Obama and Edwards both seemed oddly intellectually lightweight, Clinton seemed like a phony "framing-slogan machine" again, lying about her plan to force everyone onto HMOs again, and Bill Richardson was horrible; this should finish things. I didn't call for Alberto Gonzales to resign because Gonzales is Hispanic??... I think Biden was actually the winner and, when not being a windbag, is really good and perceptive on many issues--not on others though.
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
102. I wish I had taped it ...
I think your review of the debate is very good.

I agree even without seeing the debate that Obama is a powerful speaker. Hillary (my candidate) needs to work on her delivery and speaking ability. She's always going to be compared to Bill, who is a fantastic speaker. I'm glad to hear that she did well. I think she's going to surprise even a lot of her non supporters in the coming months.

We have a LONG way to go and a great bunch of candidates.
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-28-07 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #102
127. It's on YouTube:
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
111. Thanks for spending all that time writing what was in my mind.
I agree with your synopsis entirely.
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Ben Masel Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
112. DrugWar
Gravel was the only one with the guts to touch it.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
117. Dodd reminds me of Gephardt...
heck of a great guy, but just not Presidential material.
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benny05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
118. Edwards did pretty well
Considering he was asked some non-issue questions and Williams totally lost credibility with those. Edwards still can stand on his two feet and I think he has matured since 2004. It's too bad the format did not permit him to discuss his agenda more.

Clinton totally turned me off by her expression "second Clinton presidency." It signaled she is counting on Big Dawg's coat-tails to get her into the WH and not on her own merit. She's not ready for a presidency, in my view.

Obama is a puppy to me. He's learning, but no where ready.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
122. We thought Obama's defense of abortion rights was quite well stated
I missed the very beginning, so I missed any discussion of energy. Our pack needs some training on this issue. I yelled at the Biden-on-TV to go slap Brian Williams, but he did about that with his single answer of "yes".
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
126. Obama and Dennis are my favorite candidates. But Obama didn't have a good night.
Maybe the media had the expectations to high, but Obama is amazing on the stump.

Skinner, he was like milquetoast on Thursday night.
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