On the subject of Avatar--and YES, this is pertinent.

[Bicoastal]

Yes, it's transparently a message movie. Yes, that message is clumsily delivered. Yes, the points that James Cameron makes have made before, and much more subtly and succinctly.

BUT Avatar is the most popular movie in the country--quite possibly the most popular movie in the last 5 years or so. And that means the general public in this country is absorbing arguments about shunning colonialism, preserving nature, fostering cultural sensitivity, and remaining skeptical about the military-industrial complex WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING IT.

It's amazing how many of these talking points are mainstays of DU, only wrapped up in a special-effects bonanza with aliens and army men in space. The usual gaggle of conservative critics saw it coming and threw their entire weight against it--and evidently failed miserably. Average Americans would who avoid movies like "An Inconvenient Truth" because they think it'd be too boring, too intellectual, or too liberal saw this film in droves. Did any of these ideas sink in? Probably not universally, but time will tell...

I'm not the type to deny that liberals have a definite edge in Hollywood. Why should we? After all, it's abundantly clear that conservatives have a choke-hold on national news media, so it all evens out. Make no mistake: Avatar IS left-wing propaganda. But, from our perspective, is that really such a bad thing?

[anonymous171]

1. Social-leftist propaganda maybe.

I found the movie's wishy-washy anti-corporate "message" (oh he looks sad at the end =/= justice) very irritating.

[Bicoastal]

2. It's hard to be entirely anti-corporate when you're making a movie...

...where each frame costs about a billion dollars.

[anonymous171]

4. True. They don't mind anti-miltary themes, but if you want to attack the rich

You're going to have to "tone it down" for the audience.

[Bicoastal]

5. What? They kicked the corporation off the planet. You're mad that they didn't kill the guy?

It's a fairly blood-thirsty vibe I'm getting here.

[anonymous171]

29. Why not? They killed the military guy.

Why dish out an even worse punishment for the guy that paid him?

[proteus_lives]

35. And their multi-million ad and product-placement campaign with McDonald's.

[closeupready]

3. Excellent points. Never thought about it quite like that, but I think you've hit it.

Good one. :hi:

[Caliman73]

6. The problem is the framing

Conservative's strangle on the supposed news media gives them the perception of credibility. I would say that many of the people who went to see Avatar went to see it because they wanted to see shit get "blowed up". Now they may see the message that corporate greed is not good and nature is beautiful, but that idea is muddled and probably lost once they step out of the theater and onto the next movie a week or two later. Whereas the news is every night and seems really important. Movies are for escape. That is how they are presented. It is good that Avatar tried to put out a left leaning message, as you said, but I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the idea that the message is what is making the movie so popular.

Ultimately, it doesn't even out, because of what the different purposes of movie and news watching are framed to be. I would much prefer to have someone like Rachel Maddow have a prime time mainstream news show with the same programming in order to show day in and day out, that there is a different perspective from the right leaning news shows out there right now.

[Bicoastal]

8. Pffft. Most people aren't actually news junkies like us.

And a primetime Rachel Maddow show isn't going to be watched by the people who really NEED to be informed. The only way you could possibly win hearts and minds of the apolitical or reactionary is by couching it in a huge mainstream blockbuster.

As someone in the entertainment business, I can tell you that art, even mainstream art, has an effect on people, even if that effect is subconscious. The movie isn't popular because of its message--but its message is getting out there because it's popular. Many people are seeing this movie more than once--something is probably going to sink in on the second or third viewing.

[Beetwasher]

11. Actually, The Message IS Part Of It's Popularity, IMO

I would say it's a part of the whole that strikes a chord that obviously resonates with a lot people (consciously or not). That's why the movie is so popular.

The plot and theme is archetypal and it has an emotional impact that is as much a part of the movie as are the stunning visuals.

[Caliman73]

47. Call me a cynic, but I disagree.

I see no movement from those converts to the messages delivered in the movie. The only true way to effect action in the apolitical or reactionary is to present a situation that affects them directly, and Avatar is not that event.

I agree with you the Art has an effect on people. Whether Avatar is as profound as it is being portrayed will remain to be seen.

[patrice]

7. You don't evaluate a graphic-novel the same way you do Moby Dick.

Avatar should be judged within the framework of its genre.

[Swede]

10. Why not?

It's delivering a good message,to a great many people. Why pigeon hole it?

[patrice]

22. It isn't necessary to pigeon hole it if you know and understand enough about Literature in all

of its media and genres. Most people don't, so establishing somekind of point of orientation is useful as A STARTING POINT only.

Any given literary artifact can be processed withing it's genre, out of it, across genres, no genre at all, or any combination thereof, preferably by identifying whatever your process is.

[Political Heretic]

19. You do if your interest is in just feeling superior to all the silly "sheeple" who enjoyed it.

[patrice]

26. Hey, I COULD tear it apart too (believe me). I think most of the negativity about it is pretty

suspicious.

[Beetwasher]

9. I Agree

n/t

[Canuckistanian]

12. They did the same thing with Wall-E

I remember a few conservatives screaming about "left-wing propaganda" regarding Wall-E's premise.

[Jennicut]

16. I love Wall-E. My 5 year old got the message very clear that the Earth

had been polluted really, really badly and that is why humans were not there anymore.

[patrice]

13. Let's try a little experiment: Take all of the negative critigues and substitute The Bible

and references to Biblical content for all references to Avatar.

[Bicoastal]

14. ?

The bible has clunky dialogue, I give you that...

[Political Heretic]

15. Actually, all its about is snobs don't like it because its popular.

Reading more into the attitudes about the movie, and the number of threads devoted to it here is a stretch.

It's pretty much just people like to feel superior to everyone else. If tons of people like it then there's a group of people that must hate it by default.

[Touchdown]

36. True. Cameron's last movie developed a kill Titanic camp.

Not because they saw it as a poor love story (which it was), or any other actual critical aspect. They hated it just because the movie was popular, with an offshoot of those that hated the movie because of that god awful Cion (The Praying Mantis) song.

EDIT: And I forgot Cameron's True Lies and the Terminators... Swartzy gets elected Governor, and all of the sudden people hate those 3 films.:crazy:

EDIT part II... and I still think Braveheart is an excellent film, despite that I'm not allowed to like it by the inclusiveness standard bearers because of Mel Gibson's homophobia and anti-semitism... but that movie was made before we knew he was such a dick. So... he's an asshole that made a good movie.

[Codeine]

55. I've loved plenty of popular films.

Hell, I'm a Star Wars junkie from wayyyy back. I enjoyed Titanic. Thought The Matrix kicked ass. Smiled like a kid through Spiderman.

Avatar is just a crummy film, and would be regardless of popularity.

[Fly by night]

17. Thanks for this OP. As I said to another DU dilettante's trashing of Avatar earlier today:

Almost 90% of "real" film reviewers loved it. But, hey, what do they know?

You know, folks like Roger Ebert.

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AI...

But hey, what does he know?

The highest grossing film in history (in less than two months) ...

Many people returning to see it multiple times (including me -- I've seen it twice and will see it again when I find an Imax theater where it is playing) ...

Pulled from all Chinese venues because of its message(s) ...

Ridiculed by neocons and the Vatican for the same reason(s) ...

And dissed here on DU by our own resident "too cool for school" dilettantes.

All good reasons to watch Avatar again (and again).

Just a hint: liberals are generally tolerant, open-minded folks who have the capacity to appreciate a wide range of things, and to listen. When I listen to my Indian friends (who prefer to be called Indians rather than "Native Americans"), they tell me they loved the film too.

More Avatars, fewer dilettantes. That's the ticket.

[Political Heretic]

21. "And dissed here on DU by our own resident "too cool for school" dilettantes."

eggggzactly :)

[Toasterlad]

23. If You Think It's Bad Here, Try Mentioning Avatar Over At the Onion AV Club

Or ANYTHING popular, for that matter. If something was seen and/or enjoyed by more than 10 people, there comes an endless line of crusaders to tell everyone how stupid it is.

[Dorian Gray]

32. Eh....

sometimes people just don't like a film. I was not a fan. It had nothing to do with the popularity of it. I've liked plenty of high grossing popular films. I just thought it was boring.

[Fly by night]

50. To each her/his own. You are clearly in a minority, but that's o.k..

My comments weren't meant to denigrate anyone who didn't like the film. Just those who have to go on and on about not liking the film (including posting OPs here about that), when the evidence is pretty clear that it must be a pretty powerful movie to have stimulated so much worldwide support and authoritarian backlash.

I think this OP (unlike the other one I commented on that got moved to the Lounge fairly quickly) makes a good point. Sometimes it takes an elemental film to get a fundamental (and finite) set of points over to a mass audience. To do that, and to be so hugely entertaining to so many people (and to be visually resplendent, which even its critics admit) is quite a feat.

If anything, the popularity of the film is underestimated. Because the 3-D and Imax versions are more expensive than regular movie tickets, folks here in Tennessee are paying for other movie tickets and then sneaking back into Avatar with the glasses they saved from their first viewing. Normally that wouldn't concern me, but I would like this film to get its full measure of recognition.

[Bluenorthwest]

18. when others have made the points before, yet no one heard

them outside those already listening, subtlety is not much of an argument in their favor. In fact being subtle is the last thing I respect in blockbuster entertainments.
I object to the idea that the general audiences get these messages without knowing it. I think they know it. In fact, I'll go so far as to say they have heard it before, and did not find the lexicon useful for larger cultural discussion. Avatar gives a language to the ideas, a language that can be used with people, outside the galleries or art houses.
A great work of art does not simply communicate to me, it allows me to continue that communication by creating common images and themes which many people understand. A good example might be the term 'Twilight Zone', which is shorthand for what might otherwise be a wordy description of a surreal feeling within a mundane moment that points to perhaps a larger or unseen underpinning. "It was like the Twilight Zone" says all of that. No need to get all subtle or speak in fancy art words or any of that. No need to even say surreal.
Just saying. If a message needs to be mass communicated, what the fuck good is being coy or 'artful' about the message? How is it better that some others have said it 'better' if the culture did not embrace that way of telling the same truth?
He who can make Chomsky or Zinn into a flip book cartoon, that person is a genius greater than those men, for they could not figure out how to tell everybody. Just really smart people who read long books and know a lot already.
I ask, if it is a fire alarm, is being subtle really a good thing, or a huge negative?

[Toasterlad]

20. So Silly That People Feel Like They Have to Apologize For Liking Avatar

It's a very entertaining movie. The fact that there are many people in this country who feel compelled to dump on anything popular just to make themselves feel superior does not make Avatar a shitty movie.

Avatar is not a manifesto. It is not a bible. It is nothing more than a movie with themes no more or less familiar than any of a dozen other movies, presented with extraordinary visual effects. Any attempts to make it more than that are coming from the viewer, not the movie itself. And it is not the movie's fault that people are taking it too seriously...for better OR worse.

[patrice]

24. Bingo~

[Political Heretic]

25. Thank GOD for some common sense. Very well said.

[Touchdown]

38. It's the REO Speedwagon Factor.

Everybody loved that album, and bought it. And from a technical and studio work standpoint, Hi Infidelity was a breakthrough album. A year later, nobody would admit they had it in their collection.

[conscious evolution]

27. Planting seeds is always a good thing.

[onestepforward]

54. +1 n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

28. It's a tremendous accomplishment visually. Amazing eye candy. Good fun. Decent, if shop-worn, story.

It's not Citizen Kane, but it's not Showgirls, either.

What it is, I think, is akin to the moment in Wizard of Oz when they turn the color on. A leap- a big one- forward in the technology of entertainment. A game changer.

I agree with the posts upthread, basically what you have is a bunch of film snobs who feel compelled to criticize anything the the unwashed masses go to in droves. Doesn't matter what it is.

[Green_Lantern]

30. I hate when people ruin a good scifi movie..

By trying to argue it has some relevance to our current political climate. Secondly you can basically argue this movie has any message you want depending on your interpretation.

[paulsby]

31. i generally agree, but the movie does encourage the whole noble savage myth

which is irksome and OH SO common in hollywood.

cherokee hair tampons anyone?

[Warren DeMontague]

33. Yeah, but this is the noble 3D 12 foot tall blue savage myth.

You gotta admit, no one's done THAT before.

[paulsby]

39. that is true

although blue noble savages have been done before

see: the smurfs

[proteus_lives]

34. As a history buff, the noble savage myth bugs me.

[paulsby]

40. i agree

the whole "native americans were stewards of the land and peaceful and so much in tune with nature " and stuff like that myth.

not only was there immense variance, but some native tribes were viking like in their love of raping and pillaging. others, were more agrarian and "chill"

and massive amounts of deforestation were committed by so called "noble savages"

people are fricking people. they may have better or worse technology, and.or means to fuck with other people, but in general, there is no such thing as a superior noble savage society, at least not that i have found.

or a oh so superior noble technological society.

[Green_Lantern]

52. it doesn't do that...

It did show that there were warmonger Na'avi who didn't trust and wanted to kill even the peaceful humans.

[proteus_lives]

37. It's a shity movie.

That's the long and short of it.

[Toasterlad]

42. Enjoy the English Patient

[proteus_lives]

43. I thought that was a shitty movie too.

[Toasterlad]

44. Perhaps Movies Aren't For You

[proteus_lives]

45. Or perhaps it's a matter of taste.

I'm a life-long film buff. Hell, I work nights as projectionist at a theater.

I think it's a shitty movie.

[Green_Lantern]

53. name some movies you like

n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

46. The English Patient was noxious trash that even bad movies would walk out of.

Avatar is just forgettable fluff that no one will bother watching once the next big CGI cartoon aimed at teens comes out.

[johnaries]

57. Well then, I guess I'll just believe the opposite of everything you say.

It was a wonderful escapist fantasy with several underlying messages, as the OP points out.

Sure, the characters are 2-dimensional. they are supposed to be. It's a morality play, and the characters represent archetypes and not actual people. The dialogue is stilted. well, most of it is spoken by characters to whom English is a second language. You can't expect Shakespeare from them.

The primary purpose of a movie is to entertain as many people as possible. Considering the staggering numbers of people who have seen this movie and the numbers of people who have seen it multiple times, it was very successful.

Enormous numbers of people LOVE this movie. Therefore, your opinion is meaningless if not downright wrong.

[GeorgeGist]

41. But you miss the point ...

Avatar is entertainment. Global Warming is real.

[mucifer]

48. It's subjective. I didn't like it you did. We are liberals. We disagree. It's all cool.

[mdmc]

49. propaganda owned by newscorp

they will have their feel good neo-con blockbuster up sh'nough..

[MilesColtrane]

51. But, the Na'vi are sooo much cuter than Afghanis!

Most people can cheer for the blue aliens on Saturday night and watch the FOX wargasm updates the next morning with nary a rattle of cognitive dissonance.

[alfredo]

56. Would "It's a Wonderful Live" have become a classic if

it was written from the conservative point of view?