Kurt Vonnegut said that the worst thing about America is...

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

Kurt Vonnegut said that the worst thing about America is the saying:

If you're so smart why aren't you rich?

That phrase (which figures large in the novel PLAYER PIANO) sums up our whole neurotic Calvinist scene.

There are good people and there are bad people. It is God's will. All failures and setbacks are a judgment, and a righteous one.

To be rich is extraordinary and in most cases due to being smart enough to be born to rich parents. Yet this condition that cannot, by definition, apply to more than a sliver of the population is taken as a minimal qualification to even open your mouth.

If you're so smart why aren't you rich?

In America we don't need to blame the victim. With typical Yankee efficiency the victim is conditioned to blame himself.

There is legitimate greatness in rugged American individualism. It's a real thing. It is not, however, universal or universally possible.

5,000 workers on a factory floor and every single one of them should have invented the internet browser on her lunch breaks. And if she didn't then she is stupid. But we don't really like intellect here, so actually she is lazy.

Everyone behind the counter at McDonald's is simply too lazy to create a room-temperature super-conductor.

And that is why we take it and take it and take it... we are ashamed. When we suffer set-backs we don't want the neighbors to know because those set-backs mark us as bad people... the non-elect born without hope of salvation.

Even your cool neighbors may be ready to judge your loss of the mandate of heaven. Even in an ostensibly progressive community like DU there is no shortage of "good" people ready to weigh in on the presumed personal corruption of people who buy houses poorly or incur expensive consumer debt.

That is how deep our national neurosis is. Hell, sometimes even socialists and atheists lapse into Calvinist thinking without even realizing it.

There is very little good about hard times but one of the few tiny benefits is that after some point the misery becomes so ubiquitous that it pressures our peculiar mythos of outcomes being deserved-by-definition. Eventually the economy hits the "good" people and at that point we recognize that there's a problem.
_____________________

Added on Edit: I mentioned the novel PLAYER PIANO. It's an old book (circa 1960?) about declining prospects for industrial workers. The title refers to motion-capture automation. There's something in that book so prescient it deserves mention for those who haven't read it. Remember all those stories about people shipping their own job overseas... the workers whose severance package consisted of the privilege of being paid to pack up the equipment and ship it to wherever? Much of PLAYER PIANO Takes place in a working class bar that has a "If you're so smart why aren't you rich?" plaque. There is an older unemployed guy who drinks there telling anyone who will listen his one great accomplishment in life. He was so good on the assembly-line that he was picked as the guy whose movements were programmed into the machines that replaced everyone, including himself. Hence the title.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

1. K&R -nt

[wtmusic]

2. Vonnegut was also questioning whether "rich" is a goal

to which anyone should ultimately aspire.

[timtom]

55. Sometime in the mid-60's

I made it my life's goal to avoid accumulation of wealth, to avoid attaining power, and to shun fame.

I'm happy to report that my life has been a resounding success.

[ncguy]

3. I agree with a lot of that

I dislike the way certain people look at financial failures as is they were moral failures, (which some financial failures are , and some are not)

I do wonder sometimes why we seem to be such an unhappy culture now, when our previous generations did not seem burdened with the thought of "Only the rich can be happy"

On the other hand, without any moral component, I do see the need to have negative (although not moral)consequences for the misuse of credit.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

6. The marketplace can, and does, punish misuse of credit

But here's a question most folks cannot even process because it is so at odds with or notions of good and bad:

Are people who live responsibly actually "free-riders" in economic terms?

The "good" people reap the broad economic benefits of their neighbors' participation in our consumerist culture without assuming the risk.

If everyone did the "right" thing the economy would have collapsed long ago.

One can say that everyone should live simply but folks seldom seem to realize that their simple, responsible life-style is heavily subsidized by the 'irresponsibility' of others.

It becomes a Kantian problem. Everyone should do x because x is the good thing. But if everyone did x it would be a disaster.

[ncguy]

This I have to disagree with

If the excesses of credit, both personal, and far more importantly, developers and businesses, had been more responsible, we would not have had unsustainable growth. The responsible people ( and businesses, and there are some) were just that, responsible.

The economy would not have collapsed because it would not have swelled like a bubble.

So, I feel that you last statement is incorrect.


(edited, becuse one dis makes a differenc ;^)

[raccoon]

9. IME, growing up in the '50's and '60's, the popular horseshit was the rich are unhappy!

I doubt seriously many people really believed it, but I heard it said.

And you'd often hear the dumbass phrase, "poor but happy"....

I don't know whether to :rofl: or :puke:

Great OP!

[asdjrocky]

4. Thanks so much for this.

Some of the smartest people I know have stopped chasing cash.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

31. True

[Fumesucker]

5. Because becoming "rich" is at least as much about single minded focus on money as it is intelligence

It's also a lot about manipulating others, something a lot of intellectually bright people are either not good at or find distasteful.

[klook]

51. Correct. There's a very interesting Malcolm Gladwell article

in a recent New Yorker mag about how entrepreneurs are perceived as "risk takers." However, the daring risk takers usually go out of business pretty fast, while the predators who only bet on a sure thing (and start with a sizeable nest egg or acquire an existing business) are more often the ones who succeed. ("The Sure Thing," 1/18/2010 issue)

[12string]

70. If You're so smart ,why aren't you Rich?

My brother and I were talking not long ago, (He is 61 and I am 55),and he asked me why is it that so many people we know managed to achieve financial stability and wealth accumulation,which we have not,in spite of their really not being the sharpest tool in the shed. His thought being,we are smarter,why aren't we wealthy? Having already contemplated that question at length I gave him my answer.Focus.Actually I think in some instances not being too inquisitive helps some individuals have the single-mindedness necessary stay on task.

[Fumesucker]

76. I agree, it's much more difficult to stay focused when you have a wide range of interests..

My brother and I are in similar age range to you and your brother, we both have the same problem you speak of and yet his business partner is far less inquisitive and far more single minded about making money so he has a lot more.. The partner just basically has far fewer distractions.

[patrice]

7. "good" people losing something is "important", but NO ONE cares what is lost to others and most

especially no one looks at what is lost in terms of Potential, rather than just Consumer Power.

Poverty impoverishes MINDS and HEARTS, not just because the poor feel materially inferior in comparison to others, but also and much more importantly because untold infinitudes of potentiality are lost not just to the Poor, but also to almost everyone else too, just to the struggle to keep up.


Even the economically "worthy" ARE Slaves too.

[crikkett]

22. "untold infinitudes"

:)

I like that!

[patrice]

39. I taught highschool for 8 years; don't think it's a stretch, at all. What say you?

[crikkett]

74. I don't think it's a stretch, either.

Most of our technical, artistic and musical innovators of the last two decades hail from the middle class and were given good public educations. My comment was in appreciation of your phrasing. Yes, untold infinitudes of potentiality are being wasted and we're going to suffer as a result.

Thanks for teaching.
:hug:

[Echo In Light]

8. "We must be careful about what we pretend to be." K.V.

[randr]

10. Conversely the implication that if you are rich you are smart

is a misconception often used.
I cite faux news and its most watched claim to fame.
White bread is another example for instance, if more people buy it it must be good for you.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

11. I had a wealthy employer to whom I said more than once...

...good-naturedly, when he did something bone-headed, "If you're so rich why aren't you smart?"

And the punch-line is that being born rich is precisely what allowed him to be sloppy or incurious.

[Echo In Light]

16. Apply that to our sham democracy: "We have ELECTIONS, so it's a democracy!"

Wrong. But if enough people buy into a deception, for them, the unreality is "reality."

[randr]

17. Our system of Majority Rule is based on an assumption

that people will be educated and make an informed decision.
Just because a majority of people think a certain way does in no way imply they are right or know what they are doing.

[Echo In Light]

18. I've learned it's wise to *always* be skeptical of any majority

[crikkett]

23. Exactly. Witness the Tea Parties. n/t

[Romulox]

24. We don't have majority rule. Our system is dominated by a House of Lords

and an unelected Judiciary parsing a faded Constitution like a Rorschach test.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

47. Or perhaps that they will do what they want, wise or unwise

Though democracy has amny practical benefits there is a moral argument for democracy independent of its effectiveness.

[Blue_Tires]

30. I HATE that

especially coming from the financial media and cable channels...After the meltdown I was shocked to see anyone have any credibility left...

[JackRiddler]

46. Yeah, this one annoys even more!

[azul]

12. The corporate jolly roger is hoisted around the world

"The chief weapon of sea pirates, however, was their capacity to astonish. Nobody else could believe, until it was too late, how heartless and greedy they were."

KV, from Breakfast of Champions

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

13. Like the joke about a guy mugging a lawyer.

He's got the gun on the lawyer and the lawyer gives him his wallet and keys, then starts taking off his pants.

The lawyer couldn't comprehend that the mugger wouldn't use his advantage to take everything.

[azul]

20. To be a successful pirate, or perhaps lawyer,

you have to drop your humanity?

[reflection]

14. I am actually in the middle of 'Player Piano' right now.

And am thoroughly enjoying it. I love Vonnegut. This is one of the few novels he wrote that I haven't read yet. I am going to revisit your post when I am done with it. Thanks.

[DemoTex]

15. Vonnegut was probably inspired by Herbert Hoover's hubris.

Hoover once said that he didn't respect anyone that had not made at least a million dollars by age thirty. Hoover also said, on the day that FDR took the oath of office, something to the effect that "We did our best."

We all know how the Hoover Administration turned out.

[guitar man]

19. +1

In the "get rich or die trying" game, I'd be willing to bet there's 10,000 "died tryings" for every one that made it. Luck plays a huge part, being in the right place at the right time and yadda yadda.

Growing up in Oklahoma, I have known a shitload of people who were rich that were dumber than a box of rocks. It just so happens that the land they inherited had oil under it. So much for the rich=smart equation.

[adigal]

21. The worst part of America is Americans

I prefer that saying. ;)

[whatchamacallit]

25. So true. K&R (nt)

[wizstars]

26. And then there's the corollary question:

"If you're so rich, why aren't you smart?"



(you have no idea how badly I wanted to ask GWB that question.)

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

43. Why isn't our millionaires learning?

[mdmc]

62. hehe

[Ishoutandscream2]

27. A hearty K and R

Excellent job!

[Gregorian]

28. Oh. This is really brilliant.

I was a machine tool student around 1980. Machines were almost all manual. But we had a numerically controlled machine that was more of a novelty than anything else. By the time I was ready to graduate NC machines were starting to grow in number. And students were having discussions about what would happen to machinists if machines were controlled by computers. It was one of those things that was never resolved. Machinists would probably find a place. It ends up they do have a place. But it's not as skilled operators per se.



A couple of things I have to mention. Otherwise I'm at a loss to explain why I see the brilliance in your post.

I've had people say to me that if I'm so handsome, why don't I have a girlfriend. It's no different. As if looks were the defining factor behind relationships. I didn't have the same goals as the rest of this society. It's considered weird if one isn't married with children. I saw that as a burden. On me. On the planet. Plus, I wanted to be free.

And regarding money. I bought a house with 15% down. It was a probate. Trashed. And I spent four years at night, after work, just fixing it. Four years later I sold it. I had a dream to find a place that was in the country. Quiet, and beautiful. That was 1994. I am still trying to find that place. Along the way I've made quite a lot of money. And it has been clear to me all along that the money means nothing. I've been one of very few who has done a kind of inverted American dream. I've seen the backside of this society. As I've sold my properties, I've seen what goes on in the investment world. I've met the wealthiest.

What I have come away with is simple. There are only a few things in life that make life good. I'm not making a complete list, but just the basics that as a society we need. A close community. Silence. Good food that we make in our own locale. No debt. Physical labor. Slower slower slower.

There are many arguments to make against what I last said. But there are arguments against those arguments.

I'm also dreaming, because just like the beauty is gone, that community is gone. It's numerically controlled now. But we're alive. And we can, in maybe 100 years, go back to what we had.

[change_notfinetuning]

42. I'm not saying you are wrong, but "slower, slower, slower"? You are dreaming.

That's just not what our culture promotes. It promotes faster, faster. Bigger, bigger. More, more. And it's going to take something incredible and unimagined to turn this mindset around. I hope you are right, though.

[Gregorian]

45. Slower isn't necessarily better.

But that something incredible is happening. it's called global warming. I've heard people talk about how we couldn't put a man on the moon, or feed more than two billion people, or get rid of polio. But there are limits. When one looks at the exponential curve of population versus time, one has to be biblical. I mean we are at the end of growth. And the planet agrees. It's dying. What I mean is that I don't think this one has a solution. And I'm one of the people who has suffered before global warming was ever fully realized. I don't like it just from an aesthetic standpoint. I wanted to live in the town I grew up in. But it's concrete and cars. And I'm an animal. I'm part of the planet. It's not that I'm weird. It's that I am also part of a feedback system. I'm recoiling from the growth.

I'll admit that modern society is great. But we just didn't know when to stop. And we've grown too far.

I never did make my final point. That being I could be wrong. Maybe we'll have 50 billion people on the planet before it's all over. And maybe I am weird and pessimistic. I don't think so. And I believe that almost everyone on the planet is in denial. They don't want to see that they have to stop doing what they're doing.

Limits are universal. Even light has it's limit.

[change_notfinetuning]

80. Tell that to the billions of people in China and India, who are just now

starting to experience modern conveniences in large numbers. Who are just starting to see the "light" of materialism. And where they are on that spectrum, a limit is nowhere in sight.

[Gregorian]

82. Exactly.

I remember telling people of the time when China turns on hot water. It was a distant future. And it's great to have hot water. But, in these numbers the planet just won't survive it. The context of this kind of discussion is never mentioned. Gore never used the word. RFK jr. said it one time. I heard it. Population. People talk about it. But it's the secret that can't be talked about nor controlled. Republicans even fight it. I honestly think the antichoice movement is a way of enforcing growth. The best way to create a growing economy is to have more mouths, more bodies. Except for one thing. The planet isn't growing. Not really. Corn, yes. Oil, no. And even the trees can't keep up now.

Speaking of global warming. I've got a tractor to go start.

[mdmc]

63. thanks for the post

:toast:
please pm me if you decide to expand this reply into it's own thread.
peace

[Gregorian]

77. Thanks.

I am not comfortable posting it, let alone as a topic. I don't know why. It feels like bragging. I'm rather unhappy with thing in this society. Rather. I'm really unhappy about some things. Cars and population, if anyone really wants to know. But it's like I'm a spoiled brat, when I see just how difficult other people have it. I haven't had a job in ten years. And that was just for two weeks. Before that, another five years. I've had it pretty good. Bike riding, and just being with my cats, and trying to enjoy nature between the subdivisions and chainsaws and mufflerless pickup trucks. My post doesn't address the issue that I feel is so important. People have lost track of what is important. I was really lucky to grow up next door to a family that was absolutely the most common sense people I've ever known. In every way. Frugal, smart, artistic. I remember one night in my parent's kitchen, stoned and eating cereal with my friend. We were probably 14 years old. And he said, you know, the most important things in life are cottage cheese, taking a dump, and something. And it's true. Do we really need ipods?

But then there is another aspect to the whole thing that's going on here on earth. I feel it's biblical. And if so, it makes me out to be the fool. And that is that maybe we're all moving toward something, with a purpose. And that global warming is part of it. And that even though there are hideous chemicals that are used to make integrated circuit chips, the modern world is moving toward a one world mind. Massive communication among many of us here. And that we're about to create a situation where something big is going to happen. I don't know. Is it destruction of the planet, a religious phenomenon?

I guess part of being intelligent is knowing that perhaps we just don't know stuff. I wanted life to be beautiful. Maybe it never really was beautiful.

So that's a bunch of circular nonsensical thinking for you. :)

[mdmc]

79. thanks for the reply

createcreate
peace and low stress

[leftstreet]

29. K&R

[mochajava666]

32. Vonnegut is great

and the Horatio Alger myth still lives.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

34. Back when Reagan was promoting his Horatio Alger scene some journalist actually read Alger, and...

wrote a great article about how Reagan was, in fact, a Horatio Alger hero, but that nobody (including Reagan) knew what that meant.

She (I think it was a she) actually read some Alger books and found that the heroes were industrious lads who, in some sort of heavenly reward for being docile employees, enjoyed amazing strokes of pure LUCK.

The basic plot was a kid works his way up from the streets to being a shipping clerk, then wins the lottery or marries the bosses daughter or is left a fortune by an obscure relative.

[mochajava666]

38. I had to read and analyze a Horatio Alger story for a college

history class. The one I read was Mark the Match Boy, but they are all the same. Kind of like Barry Manilow songs.

The basic plot was kind of like you said. There is a lot more to it than luck, though. This story had a black boy the same age as Mark who didn't have ambition and wasn't as God fearing, and didn't have an optimistic go-getter attitude. There were definitely racist overtones, but the main theme is if you have ambition and are a good christian, you will succeed through hard work, and get lucky through divine intervention. It was used as a way to blame the poor for being poor, by implying if they had better character, they would be rich. Also, it gave the poor a dream that if you played ball with "The Man", you will certainly be rewarded.

One thing that a lot of people don't know is that he was a horrible story teller and had really poor writing skills. The book reads like a 5th grader wrote it. The poor prose makes the heavy handed preaching all the more unbearable. One good thing is that they are all pretty quick reads, if you can stomach it. My history prof said that although he sucked as a writer, the corporate publishers loved the message he was putting out, so his books got printed and sold.

[klook]

48. Pretty funny - reminds me of a joke:

An interviewer asked the elderly billionaire how he made his fortune.

"I got started in the middle of the depression," he said. "My wife and I were down to our last nickel. I took that nickel and bought an apple. I polished it all day and sold it for 10 cents."

"The the next day I bought two apples, spent all day polishing them, and sold them for 20 cents."

"I kept this up until I had $1.50."

"Then my wife's father died and left us a million dollars!"

[Nay]

60. Great story! It's the same when you read about someone who has

supposedly made it big in <fill in the blank> business, all by pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. You read that they had this idea to produce this new widget...they made a business plan...they designed a prototype....and Uncle Robert LENT THEM $500,000 TO START THE BUSINESS. I throw the magazine down in disgust at this point.

[The Wizard]

65. Alger

was also a church elder who liked to bugger alter boys.
There's a NAMBLA chapter named after Horatio Alger.
Then again, that fits the Republican model for public service.

[Fixed_Based_Operator]

33. I have always said

you don't need to be smart to get rich, just greedy.

[Hello_Kitty]

35. K and R. eom

[Vidar]

36. K&R.

[Mrs. Ted Nancy]

37. Here's a question for congressional republicans

If you are so rich, why aren't you smart?

I suppose you can ask this to any financially wealthy person who is dumber than dirt.

I live in Oklahoma. Should I see Inhofe, Coburn etc., I will ask them that question.

If I get an answer, I will post it.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

41. If you're rich you don't have to be

What use is smart to a rich person? You'll just end up troubling your beautiful mind, like Barbara Bush said.

[change_notfinetuning]

40. I had a few friends in high school (late 60's) whose goal was to be rich. More

accurately, they proclaimed they were going to be millionaires. These single-minded, robotic-humans succeeded, some with connections, some by selling out. And some even did it all on their own. But all of them worked hard to succeed, I will admit. The single-minded, wealth-seekers did it. And they are now living the American dream on steroids.

Other friends, from the same circle, were not opposed to achieving wealth, but were more interested in paths that would provide enjoyment and satisfaction to themselves, and benefits to society, but where achieving wealth would be an unexpected surprise. They were not as interested in wealth as in doing good, or doing something they would enjoy. Serving the needs of society and the people whose needs were not being met was considered rewarding to many at that time, and wealth was not a necessary result.

Today, even among the same friends, however, the reaction of people who did become wealthy to those who did not become wealthy, whether spoken or not, is the essence of what Vonnegut said. What is your problem? Why didn't you get it and make money like we did? They only hope they won't have to pay for us "slackers" in our old age. If only the mirrors they look into would actually reflect their true souls. As if that would matter, while they are riding so high.

[Naturyl]

44. Hoo, he was so right

I hate that one with a passion. Have heard it all my life. "If you were really so smart, you'd have money."

The level of brainwashed assumptions that must exist in order for people to say that would take all day to explain.

[Kitty Herder]

49. K&R!!!

[Grand Taurean]

50. Calvin was one of the worst people to ever exist on this planet.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

66. True, true, true. A real monster. A (brilliant) friend of mine who has

that conflicted faith typical of Richard Burton defrocked priest characters actually lost his faith in Christ for years as a result of reading Calvin.

[Orsino]

52. "You're so beautiful you should be a movie star!"

"You're so rich you should run for office!"

[ProfessorPlum]

53. I've been thinking a lot along these lines lately . . .

that so much of the world's problems are caused because people think the world is "just". Thinking the world is just means that people find themselves in the place in the world that they deserve. And if we don't realize that life is to a large degree capricious and random, we are in danger of really screwing over people who are just as good and smart and worthy as we are, just because we think they are beneath us.

Believing in a "just" world is a sure path to Republican pathology, I think.

[grantcart]

54. excellent point

[suede1]

56. K & R.

[anonymous171]

57. The worst part about that statement is that is puts the rich above all of us

when in fact they aren't better than any of us. In fact, most are worse.

[dotymed]

58. Vonnegut

is one of the great thinkers, writers and presence of our time. When we lose him, we will have lost another Howard Zinn. BTW, Vonnegut is a Humanist. His books played a large role in my young life. He is the main reason I got my Bachelors in English, a long time ago. I especially love SLAUGHTER HOUSE FIVE A CHILDRENS CRUSADE, that is a man of uncommon intellect.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

68. He died a while back. My screen name dates from when he and Hunter Thompson died the same year (?)

I think it was the same year, or at least within 12 months of each other...

[dotymed]

71. I'm so not current, I don't watch much tv

Vonnegut was a unique and inspiring individual

[rasputin1952]

59. Vonnegut was one of the great writers of our age...

He often pondered just why he was here...and why he survived a firebombed Dresden in WWII. I was watching an interview w/him a long time ago, where he stated his works were like that of a "sparrow fart in a tornado"...I certainly don't agree, but the words just struck me as a point of where the vast majority of humanity live out there lives...mine included...:)

[bedazzled]

61. to be or not to be rich is not just a moral issue -- it's a physical one, too

nowadays if you're not "rich" you can't afford medical or
dental care. or even in some places, an apartment or house.

it's a matter of degrees i guess

i work all day for people whose purses are worth more than
my car. it's a strange feeling to me to think that a person
would wear a ring that would feed starving children for a
year. guess i think like a poor person...

[The Wizard]

64. So if Bernie Madoff

wasn't caught he'd be on the cusp of sainthood.

[dem629]

67. ...his books.

[abelenkpe]

69. One of my all time favorite books. nt

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

72. An alternative non-Calvinist approach...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7638205

[Greyhound]

73. I'm damn sorry I missed the rec window.

:thumbsup:

[Ignis]

78. Same here, but at least we can kick it.

:kick: for a damn fine piece of writing.

[ihavenobias]

75. K & R.

How could I not?

[Wardoc]

81. People who think that must have never seen an episode of "real housewives" on bravo because...

those individuals are not the epitome of brilliance and yet they all have substantial wealth.

[Juche]

83. Just world Phenomenon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon

The just-world phenomenon, also called the just-world theory, just-world fallacy, just-world effect, or just-world hypothesis, refers to the tendency for people to want to believe that the world is just so strongly that when they witness an otherwise inexplicable injustice they will rationalize it by searching for things that the victim might have done to deserve it. This deflects their anxiety, and lets them continue to believe the world is a just place, but often at the expense of blaming victims for things that were not, objectively, their fault.

Another theory entails the need to protect one's own sense of invulnerability. This inspires people to believe that rape only happens to those who deserve or provoke the assault. This is a way of feeling safer. If the potential victim avoids the behaviors of the past victims then they themselves will remain safe and feel less vulnerable.

















Also, since when did becoming rich or famous become the end goal of being intelligent or productive? And why is that the most laudable goal?