Population and consumption

[The2ndWheel]

Can we actually stop either one? Can we consume less? Can we curb population growth?

Everyone doesn't have everything yet, not even the basic needs. Once everyone has the basics though(which will require more consumption), won't they have every right to have more(which will require more consumption)?

To allow everyone to have the basics, we need people to pay into the system. If we don't have enough people doing that, where do we get the money? To have a growing economy, we need more people using more stuff, thus creating more jobs. If we have fewer people, using less stuff, the economy does't grow, jobs are not there, there isn't a tax base from which to fund the basics(and more than just the basics obviously).

In my mind, if we want to keep(and continuously improve) anything that we've become used to, we need everyone having more kids and consuming more. Unless you can think of another way to allow everyone on this planet to have access to everything(and every man, woman, and child has as much right as anyone else to do just that).

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. I've done my part

I have no children, and won't have any (too old). As for "continuously improve"-maybe what we need is a hard look at our values and what we consider "improvement".

[orwell]

2. My wife and I of 35 years...

...have no children as well. Of course we have received many disapproving comments about our "selfishness."

[unpossibles]

4. don't you love that?

Luckily most of our families are fine with the idea, but we still get people saying "you'll change your mind!" or the selfish thing. I don't really see how having kids is more or less selfish than not. If anything, I lean towards having kids irresponsibly is more selfish, but I would never say that to someone.

[IDemo]

3. The "right to have more" is entirely a human invention

No such natural right exists. In fact, even "the right to basic needs" is an invention which attempts to place humans on a separate plane from the limiting factors of land, natural resources, and environmental consequences (climate, for example). Industrial civilization has been particularly lucky until now, but the petri dish is becoming overpopulated.

[OneBlueSky]

5. a capitalist system is, by definition, a "consumption maximization" system . . .

if we want to reduce consumption -- an absolute must, imo -- we have to change the system . . . to what I'm not sure . . .

[wuushew]

6. Wealth is the product of human labor

a steady state environment that uses energy and material at a sustainable rate would invariably fall into two outcomes: Neo-feudalism or socialism.

The absolute fear of the second state(by the wealthy) is the primary motivating factor in continuing the myth that we can grow forever. Feeding the lie that everybody can can continually get richer is the only thing that delays the necessary redistribution of wealth that would invariably occur should the self-evident laws of nature and physics be realized by a educated democratic populace.

Money and political careers are short term events. Lies and delusions that satisfy these short term goals only make the eventual correction that much harder and more in doubt. So goes human nature.


In a world of fixed resources per capita affluence could be improved in two ways: improvements in efficiency or a smaller population utilizing a fixed amount of goods or services.

[GliderGuider]

7. No. You can thank your genetic heritage for that.

Within resource limits, population growth and consumption are both genetically mediated. At a fundamental level population grows because all organisms are genetically programmed to over-reproduce to replace deaths to to food shortages, disease and predators. In the absence of either, we still have the programmed urge. The urge to consume seems likely to be genetically mediated in much the same way. Individuals may overcome these genetic imperatives, but it's highly improbable that the entire species can subdue them.

As long as there excess resources, enough food and no significant species-scale diseases, things will keep on going as they are. Once we bump into a serious resource limit (aka Peak Oil), some food shortages (ditto) and a pandemic or two, things will come back into balance.

Coming soon to a theater near you.