I just wanted to say this - You ever see Deer Hunter - that movie?

[Joe for Clark]

Man I grew up there - that was any town in West Pa then (or Ohio, etc...).

They got it right in that movie - it was the way it was.

Let say this - if you ever really have to defend yourself - it is going to be in a dark parking lot in the middle of the night. Guns for self defense - it is a joke - you are more likely to get your kid or a little one killed.

I don't like guns - for self defense - they are a joke. False security, that is all they are.

Fun for target practice, or deer hunting - but they will not protect you from anything. Unless you are incredibly lucky - learn another way to protect yourself.

Joe

[Monkeyman]

1. One Shot

Hell Yes:smoke:

[Joe for Clark]

11. Yeah - if you get the shot.

The only time I ever got jacked - 2 in the morning in the middle of nowhere.

What if you don't have a gun - cause you probably won't

What if it is in a parking lot in the middle of the night??

I got picked up by five little Jamacians behind a church at 2 in the morning. And I was drunk off my ass at the time. It was interesting.

You do crack me up you know - you are a good guy Monkeyman.

I don't know you exactly - but I think we are the same.

Joe

[TomInTib]

24. I don't go anywhere without a sidearm.

Except on an airplane and then I check them in my bags.

[Joe for Clark]

27. How do you do that???

[TomInTib]

33. How do I do what?

If you are asking how I carry a sidearm, I just stick it in my pants (small of my back - H&K 9mm Slim)
or ankle holster 5-shot hammerless .32.

You can check bagsfull of firearms on a plane.

[AllegroRondo]

49. Even in a concealed carry state, some places are off limits

for example, here in MO, you can carry a concealed weapon with a license. But the state also reserves the right for any business, school, hospital, etc to post "concealed weapons not allowed on premisis", and you cannot take one in there.
How do you get around that limitation?

[Major Hogwash]

72. You don't go into a bar with a gun, do ya?

I don't know how old you are or if you even go into bars, but I don't think it's wise to carry a gun into bars.

[TomInTib]

76. I always carry a gun unless there is a metal-detector involved.

I grew up with firearms (ranch-raised) and I just feel naked without one.

That said, I would never throw down except in self-defense.

And that has come up a few times.

[Wetzelbill]

78. yeah but please don't tell me you do it out of fear

I know people who carry guns around all the time, like in their vehicles etc and they're pretty cool people, not fearful of society, they just hunt and have guns around. (I'm ranch raised and from MT) I think it's pretty wimpy if somebody is so scared of society they have to carry a gun on themselves at all times. I mean I can see how a person who grew up carrying one around, to shoot gophers and shit like that, could just get used to it, so they always keep one around. I just can't see being scared all the time you know? People like skitterish like that make me nervous.

So do you mind talking about the situations that you used one in self-defense for? I'd be interested in hearing that.

[TomInTib]

83. No fear, here.

check your PM, later.

[Wetzelbill]

85. cool

[bemildred]

2. Yeah, great movie.

They ought to re-release it. Guns for security is like screwing for virginity.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

3. My favorite movie....

Meryl Streep, DeNiro, Walken. Some great acting in that movie.

[City Lights]

17. Mine too.

Blew me away. Totally.

[Sequoia]

58. "You have a picture of Walter Bennan?"

I'll never forget that scene.

[Wetzelbill]

79. I thought John Cazale was great

best known as "Fredo." :)

[Olney Blue]

4. Yes. The scene where he couldn't shoot the deer was powerful.

[Monkeyman]

6. That Happens after you are the hunted

[Olney Blue]

10. Of course....

:cry:

[Joe for Clark]

29. I guess it does happen -

I figured dad killed about 1100 people in germany and he flniched on a deer once.

I think you are right.

Joe

[Leopolds Ghost]

31. By granddad called in air support in Thuringen forest -- he was never the same after that

[Joe for Clark]

61. You mean I think the Hurtgen forrest-

That was about as bad as it gets.

It was not even a real forest - it was a planted forest to prevent a war - didn't work too well.

Your grandfather did that deal??

No one was ever the same after that - that he is still alive - wow. He must be a hell of a good guy.

I studied that fight - that was one of the nastiest low down fights ever.

For no logical reason, too - didn't matter.

That was your grandfather - apparently he produced a good blood line.

Joe

[Wetzelbill]

80. fuck

man, that is some serious history there. I think Joe is right, you may be off on the name.

Just think of the demons one has to wrestle with over something like that. Both good and bad. Sometimes in war, things are necessary, but morally difficult to do. Any moral person would be effected like that.

[TahitiNut]

48. You betcha, bro.

I sure lost ALL interest in deer hunting after 1969. I couldn't even be around guns being fired.

[OlderButWiser]

57. Unfortunately

that doesn't happen to all combat veterans. I know many who continue to hunt even after they themselves had been the hunted.
You'd think they'd all have an epiphany.

[Xipe Totec]

5. I saw the movie

I thought it was a genuine and realistic portrait of Slavic America.

But I don't get the connection to guns in self-defense.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just didn't make that connection.

[Joe for Clark]

34. It is not connected that way - but you have to understand them.

They hunted for food - guns for protection - that is an LA thing.

They had a purpose.

If you look for protection - don't look to guns - cause they probably will not help you when you need it. There are ways. False security is not helpful.

I liked that movie - reminded me of home - and it kind of hit me.

SO I posted that.

Joe

[Joe for Clark]

40. You are right-

They are connected - to me - I didn't bother to connect it here though.

I probably should have. It wasn't why I posted it in any event.

You made a good point you know - don't apologize to anyone for saying what what you think is true.

Joe

[saltpoint]

7. A powerful film. Some of the best character acting ever.

[jody]

8. Tell that to Damon Wells in Cleveland Ohio. See DU's thread below.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x139786

[Leopolds Ghost]

37. Note that the gang whose member he killed is out to kill him in retribution.

If you don't like it, don't advocate an eye for an eye.

If your system of morality is based on violent retribution,

then property (not nonviolence) becomes the only thing sacred.

That is the libertarian ideal in a society based on violence--

property = liberty.

[jody]

39. Are you saying submit to criminals? n/t

[Joe for Clark]

62. Here is what they taught us -

that if - they don't have the money for a gun - then they probably do not have one.

This is all probably. If they had the money - you are not the primary target.

That if you do get attacked - there will probably be three attackers - allow for it.

Understand they will be underweight and under the age of 22- probably.

It will be at night - and you may not see the first attacker. May have a knife - you remember just how long it takes to bleed to death if you do get hit - don't freak at the sight of blood - especially yours.

You only have 30 or less seconds to deal with the thing anyway.


Hell - you know how much that doesn't matter if you know what you are doing??

Joe

[jody]

64. I don't know who "they" was that taught you but you need to find another instructor. n/t

[Joe for Clark]

67. Maybe -

When I was older my kids wanted to do "karate" too.

I was NOT going to that duck walk thing ever again - you know what I am talking about??

SO now - I am ranked in Tang soo doo and Kenpo. I am.

And I am old enough to know just what that difference is.


Maybe you are right or not - but you can stick me anywhere at 2 in the morning and it is ok.

Who is they - maybe I am they.

Joe

[jody]

68. What ever you're using, if it's not illegal, you can sell it and make a fortune. n/t

[Joe for Clark]

70. Wow Jody - how original.

You know the difference? - I have some Idea what I am talking about - and I know you don't.

There was a prison camp in Cebu - in Switzerland - look it up.

I know what happened - maybe you need to know too.

I don't think the Russians are little bastards - I know what they did.

Do it Jody - and I know a lot more than that too.

Joe

[SammyWinstonJack]

9. Maybe "God" will save you?

:shrug:

[Joe for Clark]

19. Oh - don't do that - he is probably busy.

And you are probably screwed.

You don't need a gun you know. If you think of the gun as security - then you better be attacked in bed in the night with you gun right next to you - and you better not flinch when you have to use it.

Otherwise - think again.

You don't really need it for that.

Joe

[Leopolds Ghost]

35. What is this, the 3rd meeting of the Atheist Militia? n/t

[Joe for Clark]

60. Atheist milita - that is funny.

Yeah, I guess we are all present and accounted for - sir.

Joe

[ribrepin]

12. Yes I've seen it many times

It was any town U.S.A during that time frame. I grew up in a small mill town in Washington state and that's just how it was.

Most boys were pretty pumped about going to Vietnam. Don't get me wrong, they weren't looking forward to killing; but they were excited to be part of something big like their fathers. They came home with a different attitude. Many didn't even like target shooting anymore.

The girls and women were bystanders who could only watch the chaos and cry.

It was a sad time. You cried when they died. The scene at the end where they were gathering after the funeral. Everybody was trying to be brave and the one guy went into the kitchen to cook and broke down. That's just how it was--you tried to keep a stiff upper lip, but you cried when you were alone.

[bluerum]

13. Of course. Incredible cast. Classic movie. eom

[BrklynLiberal]

15. Yep. That was the first time I was awed by Christopher Walken

[bluerum]

36. Yes - and he has had an incredible career since. eom

[jedr]

14. The movies was right on except for one flaw that always has ;

bothered me. When they went up north to hunt they filmed it in the rocky mnts. not in Potter Co. But man, I've been to 100's of weddings like that one....shot and a beer and a five spot in the bridesmaids' bag at the wedding dance. The "Burgh at it's best!

[Joe for Clark]

26. Absolutely right.

Joe

You been there I see.

[montanacowboy]

28. That hunting scene was filmed

in the North Cascades National Forest, north of Seattle

I always laff my ass off when it shows them going hunting in West. PA and then you see the majesty of the Cascades

[jedr]

32. Thanks for the correction......n/t

[A HERETIC I AM]

56. Another goofy scene in a movie like that is in the film "Seven"....

(I should start by saying i hope this isn't deleted as a sub thread. I saw The Deer Hunter when it came out in the theater. It was powerful then and it still is)

In the movie Seven, near the end they take the killer (Kevin Spacey) out to the place he designated to receive the package. That place is the Antelope Valley, North of LA. There is no terrain within an afternoons drive of NYC that looks ANYTHING like that spot.

[frankenforpres]

63. Does seven explicitly say

that it takes place in NYC?

[A HERETIC I AM]

66. Well, outside of the NYCPD style uniforms and the NYC street scenes...

and the scene in the apartment where an El train goes by .....and every other indication presented that it IS New York City INCLUDING the driving across either the GW or the Throgs Neck Bridge...No...no one that i recall actually says "This is New York City".

[frankenforpres]

74. no, i get that it looked like NYC

but i took it to be more fictional/ comic book like.

[NashVegas]

43. The Other Thing That Bothered Me

Is the hunting scene early on; they're on the road, there's snow cover, but the snow on the road has melted from the sun and is giving off steam - the way it does in the springtime in the Northeast. Definitely not hunting season.

[liberalnurse]

16. Did you grow-up

in Mingo Junction? I'm from Mars, Pa.:hi:

Yes, the movie grasped the community/culture/ sentiment perfectly.

[Joe for Clark]

22. Oh - I am still just a big kid.

Ask my wife - she'll tell ya.

Mars - I know where you are.

Born in Beaver Falls - went to school in Los Angeles.

But I am still one of you - always will be.

GO Steelers!!!!!

jOE

[Synnical]

18. One of my most fav movies

But then, I'm a huge Walken fan, mostly because of that movie.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

20. Saw it "for the first time again" a few months ago.... it puts

you "there" and I certainly will see it again if it reappears on the telly.

[piedmont]

21. An anti-gun argument based on a movie? You're getting desperate.

Let say this - if you ever really have to defend yourself - it is going to be in a dark parking lot in the middle of the night.

Besides the fact that this is utterly false (people are attacked in all sorts of situations), what in the hell is your point?

Fun for target practice, or deer hunting - but they will not protect you from anything. Unless you are incredibly lucky - learn another way to protect yourself.

Another falsehood. See the example posted elsewhere in this thread.

[Joe for Clark]

23. But I have been attacked - in the middle of nowhere -

2 in the morning - and I was drunk off my ass.

Guns - I lived with people that lived off their hunting for months from deer season - that is fine.

And it is so much fun to shoot up beer cans - it really is.

But for protection??

False security - it is.

Unless of course you get attacked in bed - with the gun right near you - you are screwed. Even then - you better be prepared to point and shoot at a person with no warning. Not so easy.

I am anti gun I guess.

Joe

[Virginia Dare]

45. It's funny,

I kept a golf club next to my bed for years, I figured if somebody attacked me in the middle of the night if nothing else I could bash them in the head.

You're right about guns for protection. I personally have never been held up, but I know two people who have. One was in her car, the guy jumped in next to her and put a gun to her head (luckily all he did was take her money) and the other was on the street with his girlfriend, a couple of guys just came up behind them, and stuck a gun in their backs. How do you defend yourself in either of these instances? You can't, you just give them what they want, and hopfully they'll go away.

I can somewhat see keeping a weapon in your home for protection, but realistically, carrying one around with you on the street, not so much.

[Joe for Clark]

51. Golfclub is a good weapon.

This is what happened to me - real life.

When I was teenager - remember that show "Kung FU" - I harrassed my parents until they gave me the $35 a month to pay for karate lesson. I didn't know there was a difference for a long time - kung fu-karate. There is.

Point - those Korean styles - don't do it - too athletic - and not practical.

Years later - I went to europe with my wife - (I wanted to see where my dads plane went down - that is the truth) And we are in Amsterdam - really drunk. (They have this thing called the canal cruise - all the wine you can drink plus you sample the local liquers - for four hours).

It is 2 in the morning, about - and I want to see the hookers along the canal - you know, like French Connection. I am the accidental tourist - got my camera out and all that - and my wife - she is tolerating all this. It is behind this big old church.

We got jacked. Five guys - Jamacians. Three in front and two behind. I am with my wife man. But drunk off my ass - I hadn't fought anyone in many years. It didn't matter. Seemed to me - could be kinda fun - I just was too drunk to take into account the fact that my wife was there too.

I never looked at the guys behind me - she did - but I knew - those guys in front were going down.
I made sure they knew I knew. No matter what happens you are going down. They ran away eventually- it is something that you eminate I think- when you know you know.

She is right you know - I think I am still a big kid.

Joe

[Virginia Dare]

88. Dreadlock Holiday--you lived it man!

was walkin' down the street
Concentratin' on truckin' right
I heard a dark voice beside of me
And i looked round in a state of fright
I saw four faces one mad
A brother from the gutter
They looked me up and down a bit
And turned to each other
I say
I don't like cricket oh no
I love it
I don't like cricket oh no
I love it
Don't you walk thru my words
You got to show some respect
Don't you walk thru my words
`cause you ain't heard me out yet
Well he looked down at my silver chain
He said i'll give you one dollar
I said you've got to be jokin' man
It was a present from me mother
He said i like it i want it
I'll take it off your hands
And you'll be sorry you crossed me
You'd better understand that you're alone
A long way from home
And i say
I don't like reggae no no
I love it
I don't like reggae oh no
I love it
Don't you cramp me style
Don't you queer on me pitch
Don't you walk thru my words
`cause you ain't heard me out yet
I hurried back to the swimming pool
Sinkin' pina coladas
I heard a dark voice beside me say
Would you like something harder
She said i've got it you want it
My harvest is the best
And if you try it you'll like it
And wallow in a dreadlock holiday
And i say
Don't like jamaica oh no
I love her
Don't like jamaica oh no
I love her oh yea
Don't you walk thru her words
You got to show some respect
Don't you walk thru her words
`cause you ain't heard her out yet
I don't like cricket
I love it (dreadlock holiday)
I don't like reggae
I love it (dreadlock holiday)
Don't like jamaica
I love her (dreadlock holiday)


Joe, I think street smarts are the best weapon you can have, I've learned that from experience, I think you have too!

[billbuckhead]

38. There are only 200 justified homicides a year with guns vs 30,000 gun deaths

There's a bunch of Walter Mitty's who think their gun makes them tough, unfortunately for these would be heros, guns just make one a target or cause some tragedy that wouldn't have happened without easy access to guns.

BTW, I'm from Westmoreland county.

[Joe for Clark]

54. We are all neighbors here I think.

I think what is going on - its the people that don't have kids and those that do.

Cause we know - when you have kids - person most likely to get hurt from a gun - is that dumb kid poking around in a closet.

If you don't have kids around - it doesn't matter.

No kids - no problem. If you do - you better be real real careful.

Good to hear from you bill.

Joe

[Wetzelbill]

81. last year there was only 143 justified homicides

it's a tough case to make vs 30,000 deaths.

[Wetzelbill]

82. you don't think a lot of luck is involved?

I've had guns pulled on me before. If I had a gun on me and went for it in those situations I would have been shot and killed. A gun is only effective if you can use it. Not saying that it can't be, but in a violent situation, outside of a straight up fistfight, luck is always a big factor. It's luck, bad luck, if somebody jumps you from behind, blows your head off and robs you before you even know it. It's better luck if they approach you from the front, engage you in a tussle, and you reach down and get your gun out first and get off a shot. It just depends on how a situation goes down whether you have a chance to use a gun or not.

[montanacowboy]

25. Hey Joe for Clark

my birthing grounds also; steel mills along the Ohio - Martins Ferry, Steubenville, Weirton

where were you?

[Joe for Clark]

30. We are neighbors.

Born and bred in Beaver Falls.

Still my home to me.

Joe

[Firespirit]

41. OK.

I'm a 95-lb, small framed, slightly-below-average-height young woman.

If a gun for self defense is a "joke," you tell me a better option. The very point of projectile weapons is that they, for the most part, do not require a physically strong person to operate.

[Joe for Clark]

42. I am not proud to say it - but I have gotten the snot knocked

out of me by at least one "95 pound girl". I am not small, either.

Unless you get attacked at a moment you have the gun out and drawn - unless that all falls into place - what are you gonna do??

I am telling you - there is a more than a 50-50 chance that if you get attacked - it is going to be in a dark parking lot. Happened to me once.

Back east - in towns I grew up in- if you were attacked in a "parking lot" - maybe 5 big mill workers are gonna jump on the SOB. People look after their neighbors that way. It is just not true in cities.

Don't spend 500 or whatever dollars on a hand gun - not for self defense. Take the money, spend the time and go to a self defense class. If you want my opinion of what is worth the time you will invest - I will tell you.

You'll never worry about parking lots again. I don't.

"Been beaten up by a small girl Joe"

[Firespirit]

47. That's a fine idea

I have no problem with self defense classes. I may just do that if I ever have the time.

However, I already know how to shoot, and I have pretty good aim. Physical self defense would be necessary to get the person off me, but I don't want merely to discourage them from going after me -- I want to disable them so that the cops can be called and the POS can be put away so he doesn't get the chance to attack someone else. I couldn't count on the next intended victim being able to do that.

[Joe for Clark]

50. If you have a gun in your hand at the time - I think you'll be ok.

What if you don't??

If it comes to the person already being on you - you failed out the gate.

There is a circle around you - and you will learn you never allow anyone to violate that space.

Not ever.

If it ever comes - here are good cheat notes. If you are seriously threatened - there are only ever three targets - throat, groin and knees. And you will attack multiple taragets at once. ANd once you are practiced - you won't think about it. You'll do it. Muscle memory.

There will probably be more than one attacker. They may have a knife. And you may have about 15 seconds to contain the situation.

It doesn't take strength to nuetralize someone - really doesn't.

I don't like guns - not for self defense - And I know - I probably won't have one availible when it is needed in any event.

Self defense classes - the truth is - it may take you two years- twice a week - til you know you contain a suituation. You will not get it in a weekend. But it is probably worth the time if you live in a city like me. They are pretrty fun too.

Joe

[Wetzelbill]

86. you know

if you learn some jiu-jitsu, you can learn how to disable an attack if they are on top of you. You catch a guy in a triangle choke from the bottom and you can literally choke a person to death if you wanted to. Knock them out easy. You don't have to be strong either. A few basic things like that wouldn't take you long to learn either. Maybe go to a good well-rounded self-defense place a few times a week, for an hour a night and, you'll pick up some stuff right away. You're not ever going to be able to punch out a huge guy, but they will give you certain basic techniques that even a small person can hurt somebody in. Like a person with little strength can break bones with joint locks easy. It's leverage and technique. But you'll do fine.

[Wetzelbill]

84. it can help

proper self-defense can help too. They augment each other. But the thing is, a gun is something you have to be lucky to use. If I was planning to rob you, I'd sneak up on you and knock the holy hell out of you before you ever had the chance to get your gun. Not much of a chance to use it then. But lots of times robbers are more desperate and stupid then that. You might get lucky enough to see them coming. But say, you have a gun in your purse or tucked in your jeans or strapped to your leg, and some criminal jumps out at you from behind a bush or an alley or somewhere they can hide behind and they have their gun drawn and pointed jammed up against your head. If you tried to go for your gun then, you'd be killed. It's all a matter of luck really. Best to be well rounded. Having a gun and knowing how to use it is good to know. Some self-defense is good too. Be aware of your surroundings and try to go places with someone else of in groups. Basic common sense stuff helps cut down the risk a lot. There isn't just one way to protect yourself.

[aikoaiko]

44. Just because you can't and wouldn't be able to defend yourself...

...doesn't mean that others can't.

[Joe for Clark]

53. So you need a gun to defend yourself then.

I personally don't trust them. You can do what you like.

[aikoaiko]

55. Thank you. I will as long as no one passes any laws preventing me from owning useful tools.

[Joe for Clark]

59. It is ok man - I don't have a problem with responsible gun owners.

Maybe it will protect you one day - maybe.

Then again - you may get jacked at 2 in the morning in the middle of no where.

It is just not a solution unto itself - And people that sell it like it is - are just reprehensible.

I liked target shooting - it really was fun. Then I had kids and priorities changed.

Keep it away from kids man - far away.

I know there are other ways - I think better ways to protect yourself.

But you want to have a gun - man I used to - just keep it away from dumb kids.

You want to know what you can do if you get attacked and you don't have one - I'll be happy to help to the extent I can. Maybe I can point you in a direction.

I have no bad feelings - I grew up in deer hunter country - so to speak.

Joe

[benEzra]

73. Thank you. Well put.

And I agree on the kids thing (our guns are kept in the safe when not in use, we have an 8-year-old and a 6-year-old), and that a gun isn't a magic talisman that will automatically save you from harm.

I do think a gun is a very useful tool in the toolkit, as is martial arts, a GOOD capsicum spray, and (most importantly) your brain. Not being stupid, and having good situational awareness, is Square One.

My dad did have a "save" via a handgun in the mid-1970's, when I was a child, at night in a REALLY rural area here in eastern NC. No shots fired, his would-be attackers saw his gun and changed their minds.

My wife and I have a few guns, and carry licenses. But having said that, I agree with you that guns aren't for everybody, and I certainly wouldn't think less of anyone who chooses differently on the issue than I do.

[kwassa]

46. US Steel National Tube Works, Lorain, Ohio

back when it was still functioning at full capacity ... 7,000 workers.

I worked there two summers while in college in the early '70s.

Yes, the steel town story was completely accurate. I even knew a bunch of guys that would vacation together and drive to Colorado to hunt deer together. I went to a Polish wedding like the one in the film, only smaller. The bars outside the mill that were open at six in the morning.

The Vietnamese half of the story, however, was nonsense.

[Joe for Clark]

52. I agree - that wasn't the movie to me either.

When I watch that movie - it is like I go back home for a short while. And I remember what it was like to not live in a city.

They could have totally skipped the war.

Couldn't agree more.

Joe

[LostinVA]

65. It was good, except for the disgustingly racist portrayal of Asians

Which unfortunately ruins it for me.

[bleedingheart]

69. Live here in da Burgh still...father was a steelworker , grandfather a miner

my father was a lover not a fighter...after he got back after three years in WWII (two bronze stars)...

I even had a hunky wedding...and my slovak cousin sang during the bridal dance....

"two pierogies in a pot..one is cooking one is not...la la la la la la la...la la la la la la"...

The movie did accurately portray the area...

[blogslut]

71. I'm with you on this

My dad had a rich life. One of his jobs was as a jailer. More than that, he was one of two Security Officers the country trusted to transport Texas Panhandle prisoners down to Huntsville. He was a very good shot with excellent test results but more than that, he was a man with the ability to remain calm under pressure.

Each night when he came home, he would go to his and my mother's room and lock his firearm away. He more than once expressed disdain at the misguided belief that a gun makes one safe. As he would tell me "The average gun owner is more likely to shoot themselves in the foot or shoot a family member."

His favorite scenario was:

"Besides, most criminals break into homes when the owner isn't there. Isn't it likely that you would come home and the criminal would simply shoot you with your own gun?"

I'm not 95 pounds anymore but I am a woman, a single woman. I have lived so all my adult life. I have taken self-defense classes and I have managed to live for 46 years without ever being attacked or robbed. Even when I lived in the ninth largest city in the US, I managed to endure without a gun and I did not drive nor did I live in a wealthy part of town.

I have my own shot-in-the-foot story.

When I lived in Dallas, I once resided in an upstairs apartment with my baby. One night I heard an odd bang from the apartment below me. A few minutes later, there were flashing lights and police cars. Turns out my neighbor had accidentally fired his handgun while cleaning it. The bullet went into the ceiling, directly under the room and the crib where my child slept. Fortunately the bullet did not penetrate through to our floor.

No guns for me. Never.

[Joe for Clark]

75. Sound pretty wise to me.

Joe

[Wetzelbill]

77. Great movie

I pretty much agree with you on the rest. Although, I'm not against being a CCW holder, and I think people should be able to have them. But seriously, false security. In some instances, it can help. I also think that if somebody is so fearful of society that they feel they have to pack a gun on themselves 24/7 then they have some issues. Especially if it's a man. Being that scared of the world is pretty wimpy. I just don't think we should live our lives in such fear. It's not realistic. Or rational. Now the world can be an effed up place, so it doesn't hurt to be a CCW holder, but, honestly, in the real violent situations, if somebody jumps you from behind or pulls a gun on you first. It takes more luck to survive that than a gun. If you go reaching for a gun when you have one pointed in your face, you're a dead duck.

[alfredo]

87. crooks won't approach unless they know they have the drop on you.

By the time you grab your piece, your brains will be splattered all over the sidewalk. Only in the movies can you pull your gun, turn off the safety, aim, and shoot before the crook can react.