China Tells U.S. To Drop Dead Over Internet Criticism

[Haole Girl]

Source: DailyFinance Wire

We know how to run our internet, thank you very much, and we don't need lessons from you.

That was the message Chinese authorities sent Saturday in response to U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's harsh criticism of the regime's internet censorship and repressive human rights policies. A representative of the Communist government said Clinton was being "disrespectful" when she urged U.S. companies to stand up to internet censorship in authoritarian countries like China.

"On the Internet question, China doesn't need any lessons from the United States on what to do or how," said Min Dahong, Chairman of the Beijing Association of Online Media. Min's statement was published Saturday in Xinhuanet.com, the state-run website of China's official propaganda arm. It came one day after China's foreign minister said Clinton's statement was "harmful to Sino-American relations."

Growing Tension

The verbal sniping is the latest fallout from Google's (GOOG) decision to challenge China over web censorship and cyber-attacks. A single incendiary blog post by Google -- in which the U.S. web giant declared it would no longer censor its Chinese search engine -- has now led to what one geopolitical expert called the biggest U.S.-China rift in a decade. The widening spat has cast a light on the difficulties U.S. internet companies face in China.

Read more: http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/china-tells-u-s-to-drop-dead-over-internet-criticism/19328914/

---

I just loved this headline.

:rofl:

[HeresyLives]

1. Well, the Chinese are right.

It's their country, and if you want to do business there you play by their rules.

[Pavulon]

4. I work in a field

that is continuously under attack from our chinese "competitors". PLC controllers and new CNC design is continuously targeted. Whole disk encryption, no windows OS out of the US and all work remote conducted over ssl-vpn. This adds cost, just to prevent theft of work.

[HeresyLives]

5. Shit happens.

[Pavulon]

6. Yeah. I support manufacturing and work with real people

who earn a living based on thinking. Not stealing other peoples work. This is about the chinese governments continuos attack on google and their customers. China quietly attacks US defense contractors as well as other technology they feel like they dont want to have to pay for. You will notice that things you need to live or that kill you when they break (nuclear reactors, scuba gear, high end medical equipment) are still made here.

The race to the bottom can be seen in the shit walmart sells.

[HeresyLives]

7. Well that's a nice rant but it won't change anything.

What is, is.

Much of what we have in the west came from China originally, so there's no point in accusing them of 'stealing' anything. They are just returning the favor.

China is into high-tech, they have people in space, so there is no merit to your other claim either.

[Jester Messiah]

8. That's a pretty lame justification.

Your hand-waving is ludicrous. The innovations that we make here in the West are ours, they aren't the long-lost property of the Chinese or anyone else.

[HeresyLives]

9. No justification is necessary. What is, is.

And no, most of what you have came from China originally.

[Haole Girl]

11. Um... I don't think so

:crazy:

[HeresyLives]

14. History is history.

[Haole Girl]

18. Are you Chinese? You're obviously branwashed.

:crazy:

[HeresyLives]

25. No, aware of history.

[Pavulon]

21. And they took it from tribes. Nothing new under the sun

i dont have shit from china except disposable products. Anything worth buying is worth buying once. Just makes buying decent stuff cost more. Like a coffee maker.

[HeresyLives]

26. What tribes would those be?

[Pavulon]

33. Whatever people who happened to live there before

some one called the place china and started telling serfs what to do. You know like Iran used to be persia and before that they were something else.

are you high, why are you defending governmental theft and hacking to get info on people they dont like or to steal technology they dont want to pay R&D for.

Really?

[HeresyLives]

38. You mean like your Indians?

China has a very long history. Nobody decided to 'call the place China' one day, and started telling 'serfs' what to do.

'Serfs' is a western word. Part of our history, not theirs.

I'm not defending anything. I don't need to. This is all recorded history.

Hacking to get info on people they don't like? Didn't you accuse Bush of that?

[Haole Girl]

42. "Your Indians"

What, exactly, is your nationality?

:shrug:

[OhioChick]

46. I think that's rather obvious at this point. n/t

[HeresyLives]

47. I'm a citizen of the world, who currently lives

in Canada...where they are called First Nations or Originals.

Indians live in India.

[WriteDown]

141. "Indians?"

Seriously?

[Flatulo]

37. Your facts are demonstrably wrong.

China does grave damage to US public and private interests by stealing their IP.

Justifying this theft by pointing out that the Chinese may have invented noodles is just bizarre.

[HeresyLives]

40. No, my facts are recorded known history.

And please don't connect it to noodles, that's just absurd.

[Occulus]

125. The internet China has came from us

and, as I said below, I hope you end up being their digital victim somehow, in some way, for the incredibly cavalier attitude you're displaying. You deserve that little bit of annoyance.

China is hacking Yahoo and Google, and getting the subject headers of emails sent to and from activists in China. They're using that information to arrest and probably torture and imprison those activists. We are right to condemn their activities, and yet here you are defending them up and down this whole thread.

Fucking shame on you.

[psychopomp]

142. Bullshit

We are a long, long way from the days of Marco Polo, friend.

[MellowDem]

10. Wow, anything to defend China...

Are you serious? Much of what we have (intellectually) came from China? REALLY? I mean, I understand history and how it is all interwoven, but REALLY? That has to be the sorriest excuse for stealing that I've ever heard.

China isn't right, China's leadership sucks fucking ass, and I don't give two hoots if they tell the US to "drop dead". China wants a free market system of economics, but they also want a whole lot of government control of their population and few individual rights. Those don't always work out too well together, as they are finding and will continue to find.

And once again, "just returning the favor"? Seriously, I'm laughing my ass off at that one. The lack of logic is... astounding!

[OhioChick]

12. "The lack of logic is... astounding!"

My thoughts exactly. :crazy:

[HeresyLives]

27. That's not logic, that's nationalism speaking.

[OhioChick]

36. Spam threads much with ridiculous one-liners? n/t

[HeresyLives]

41. No, I'd do lengthier threads if I thot I had an audience

that was open-minded.

[Occulus]

137. You have elaborated on exactly nothing over this entire thread.

You have demonstrated that you have nothing of substance to say and have backed up nothing with, well, nothing. All you have are tired one-liners with lots of smack but no substance.

Until you "write a paper", so to speak, we really should dismiss what you have to say. You've made some extraordinary claims on this thread. It's time for you to put up or sit down and shut the fuck up.

[proteus_lives]

136. I echo your thoughts.

It's bat-shit.

[burning rain]

13. You're dealing with an amoral libertarian interloper here.

You're better off not wasting your time.

[HeresyLives]

19. Sorry, I'm none of those things.

Stop dismissing what you don't understand.

[burning rain]

No apology requested, none accepted.

.

[Occulus]

126. You're right

You're probably not a libertarian.

[JDPriestly]

144. I'm an American. Both my parents and all my grandparents were

born in the U.S. I have fully disclosed my background.

HeresyLives, where were you born? Where were your parents born? Where were your grandparents born?

[Flatulo]

49. He's definitely not a Libertarian - they are staunch defenders of intellectual property.

[HeresyLives]

54. 'She', and no I'm not a Libertarian.

I'm an Independent.

Current political names and titles. are outdated.

Relic of the Cold War and all that.

[HeresyLives]

17. China doesn't need defending.

They invented the rudder, the compass, paper, the printing press, cannons, rockets, the world's first calculating machine, even oil wells. Where would the west be today without all those things?

China has been a civilization for 5000 years, you've been around for a couple of hundred years, so they don't much concern themselves with your 'beliefs.'

[Haole Girl]

20. And what they can't invent, today, they steal. nt

[HeresyLives]

24. Gee, like everyone else on the planet.

[Pavulon]

30. They invented the biggest oppressor society in the world

block internet access, kill or jail dissenters. Tell people how many kids they can have and have royally fucked their environment. In 5000 years you think they would have figured out that some things are bad. Shooting tibetans, being one of them.

They do make cheap shirts and other walmart shit, they are the reason a mr coffee from 15 years ago still works and a new one lasts a year.

I opt out of the china model.

[HeresyLives]

32. Really? Well they own yer ass.

Please stop attributing your ideas and values to other cultures.

I really doubt the govt of China is much concerned with your coffee-maker.

[Pavulon]

44. No they are concerned with turbofan

design. Designs they dont have for turbines for aircraft in both military and civilian application. See companies I do business with spend tens of millions designing them and china wants to skip the expansive and time consuming phase and just take the design, more accurately the process for production and tooling. They are also interested in things like the design for the w88 warhead, submarine propulsion systems, and other billion dollar systems they do not want to pay R&D for.

Get it?

The china model is the reason a decent coffee maker that used to cost $12, now is trash made in china of lead and cadmium. Now to purchase a basic machine made in the US or Europe costs $100.

Still worth the difference to buy quality, not shit. There is NOTHING in my home other than art or literature from china that is not disposable.

[HeresyLives]

50. LOL they are interested in everything.

As are most people in the world.

China is in space.

And again, your coffee-maker isn't of concern to anyone.

[Pavulon]

58. wow 42 years later.. They are interested in money

not having to pay R&D for a design they steal from another manufacturer is not LOL. Yeah , my coffee maker is a nice example of how cheap chinese shit displaced quality and drive up the cost of buying something once.

Know why you cant get a chinese car in the US or canada? none meet the minimum safety standards.

[HeresyLives]

61. China invented paper currency.

And Chinese cars will arrive in the US shortly.

PS. Nader created your safety standards. You had none before that.

[Pavulon]

65. Great. Maybe they will make something as safe as a E350 or 5 series

maybe volvo safety. Somehow I predict a smaller coffin like vehicle where you are the crumple zone. Maybe like the other shit they make it will break in two years and I will have to throw it out and replace it continuously.

Kia has a pretty good low end vehicle.

[HeresyLives]

67. Maybe they will.

Or maybe they won't.

But you'll buy them anyway.

[Pavulon]

71. Again I am old school. Buy once for quality

if they fit that model great. Somehow I doubt they are going to follow that path. I dont have time for cheap shit that does not work.

[HeresyLives]

74. Fine. Go buy an American coffee-maker.

[Pavulon]

77. Bunn. Free of lead, cadmium and melamine

to bad the old mr coffee that used to cost 20 bucks is now shit made in the third world. It may cost 19.95 at walmart but it is still shit. The bunn costs 100 but has lasted many years.

I actively vote with my purchases. I try not to buy shit made in china because of quality and labor practices.

[HeresyLives]

80. Currently Swiss, I believe.

[Pavulon]

83. Mine says "made in the USA"(nt)

[HeresyLives]

85. Assembled in the USA.

From parts made all over the world.

[Pavulon]

86. Injection molded plastic and stamped metal

not exactly expensive fabrication. IE cheaper to do locally than ship over from cheap labor land.

[HeresyLives]

91. Some things are, some things aren't.

[proteus_lives]

138. And the binding of feet.

Mass famine.

Killing of female infants.

"And Chinese cars will arrive in the US shortly"

:rofl:

[JDPriestly]

146. Their cheap, useless copies of age-old American products are even worse.

I bought a simple-to-design-and-and-manufacture wooden clothes-dryer made in China. In fact, after the first one broke in a very shorty time, I bought another one. So I bought two of them. They both fell apart in no time. They were so cheaply manufactured.

I mean what does it take to engineer a wooden, folding drying rack?

I hate to think what their satellites are like.

I am reminded of the Russian clothespins I bought when I lived in Central Europe in the early 1980s. The springs actually crumbled in my hands. Until I bought the clothespins, I believed all the hype about the Russian military threat. When every single clothespin I bought fell apart, I realized that the Red scare was just a big lie.

A country that can't produce a decent clothespin or a decent folding wooden drier is pretty primitive in my book.

Of course, China steals technology.

[JDPriestly]

145. One of the reasons that Google has that back door is that

it is a means through which the U.S. can enforce its copyrights and patents.

[TommyO]

154. Now I see what you're doing

You're ingratiating yourself to the oppressors to curry favor with them.

[MellowDem]

43. Ahhh...

so sorry. I didn't know the greatness of a nation depended on how much it had invented thousands of years ago, or how long it has been around. All bow to the mighty and great China! Our beliefs are meager "barbarian" beliefs, can't you see? China has only gotten to where it is because of the Chinese! It doesn't need anyone else, see! Just look what happened when they built that Great Wall and isolated themselves from the world! I mean, it was just an amazing time then, wasn't it? The world should thank them. And buy their stuff. Oh, and all intellectual property is now Chinese, because, well, they invented everything. :eyes:

[HeresyLives]

52. It doesn't.

But a civilization 5000 years old has a major head-start on you.

The Great Wall btw did not isolate them from the world.

Don't sulk.

[MellowDem]

64. Me?

Well, I've only been around 24 years, and I don't think I will ever be able to outlast the mighty Chinese civilization. ;-)

But seriously, it's ok to criticize another nation. Relax. It doesn't mean I don't think the same thing when the US government does it.

It is amusing how your posts defending China seem to mirror exactly the logic of freepers who defend America. Greatest nation on Earth, technological superiority, longevity (oldest Constitution!), you name it, all somehow in some minds excusing the US from having to answer to progressive ideals.

[HeresyLives]

69. No, not you personally.

And of course it's ok to criticize another nation.

As long as you are willing to accept criticism about your own country.

PS...I've not said anything like that about China. I simply remind you of both history, and current conditions...and that your 'progessive ideals' aren't the same as others.

[Haole Girl]

53. ROFL

:rofl:

[Pavulon]

15. Umm, I've been to china. City nice, country poor.

china purchases nuclear reactors from the US and French. They have not stolen the technology needed to build the pressure vessels and control systems yet. China has had serious issues with naval subs they purchased from russia and reverse engineered. They should at least steal german sub designs, they tend to be safer.

I return the favor by continuously putting fucked up gcode and uncompiled c programs on servers that get poked. If they want a better turbofan they can put the hours in. The low hanging fruit around the office is intentionally useless.

Anything worth stealing is wrapped up in aes encryption.

China is an ecological fucking disaster and a body shop, they are not driving improvement, they just make a cheaper and shittier shirt or coffee pot. Only stealing work product gets them by in high end work. When they do find something useful the rest of the industry pays for its use.

The best milling and cutting gear in the world is made and designed in Germany and the US.

We put guys in space 40 years ago, lets keep it real. We have what they want, they can pay or steal.

[HeresyLives]

22. Civilizations rise and fall.

China has seen war, revolution, invasion, famine...you name it.

Some civilizations never recover from a fall...like Rome. Others, like China, do.

China invented rockets. Get over it.

[Pavulon]

48. Did they invent the dope you are smoking

my point is clear. They are stealing expensive work product they dont want to pay for. Stuff like turbine design. They are also a fucked up oppressor nation.

Posting some political views there can land you ass in jail. Did they invent that?

[HeresyLives]

55. Sorry, I've never used drugs in my life.

Hey, I realize you don't like China.

I'm sure that scares them.

[Pavulon]

62. Pretty bizarre path you are taking

I dont dislike china. I dislike the exploitative government and labor market there. The people and culture are awesome, government is scary. True free market and communist ability to force compliance are a bizarre mix.

[HeresyLives]

66. I'm simply telling you... warning you? that they don't care

what you like and dislike. China is China, and you'll have to deal with their culture.

[Pavulon]

75. Their culture is not about theft and oppression

stealing others work is bad mmkay. Remember grade school, looking at little suzies answers was bad. Breaking into peoples email accounts so you can jail them for political dissent is bad..

You aren't saying the current government is representative of the entire culture of China are you?

[HeresyLives]

78. No, nor did I say it was.

Yes, stealing is bad. We...the west...do it all the time.

Is your govt representative of the entire culture of the US?

[Pavulon]

81. No.

I dont know of anyone in my industry who steals from competitors. Our traditional competition in Europe is aggressive with deals and make good products. They pay to license stuff we make and we pay them for their stuff.

I do not steal, I do not approve of a government jailing political prisoners.

[HeresyLives]

84. LOL well like it or not the west has stolen plenty.

And I'm sure you know that.

Mmmm Gitmo?

[Pavulon]

87. Like I said.

I dont steal from my competitors. I dont approve of POLITICAL PRISONERS, ie you say the prime minister and queen are scum and you go to jail.

Please dont defend that practice. You want to start a gbay thread, do. Not comparable here.

[HeresyLives]

90. That's nice. Nothing to do with the topic, but nice sentiment.

I have no idea what a 'gbay' thread is, so I'll stick with this one.

[proteus_lives]

139. And did nothing with them.

While the British used gunpowder (among other things) to control the world.

Including older China.

Shall I make you a list of other cultures that have bashed the living fuck out of the mighty Chinese?

[Arctic Dave]

31. That is funny, you could say the same thing for us and countries with oil.

[HeresyLives]

34. True. Nobody has clean hands in this world.

So we can't complain about others. 'The mote in your own eye' and all that.

[Occulus]

119. I hope they hack your computer to hell and gone for that n/t

[HeresyLives]

121. LOL.

[Occulus]

132. Oh, you can laugh,

but you probably won't know they've done it until it's too late.

By the way, what China is doing with the internet we invented is a very big deal, because they're hacking both Yahoo and Google emails, and using the information they're gleaning from the subject lines and email headers to arrest and imprison activist citizens who want to make life better for people living in China.

This sort of behavior has been par for the course for China for many years, and the Chinese government seems to be in an ever-escalating mode of panic as citizens within their borders are encountering ideas from social (not corporate) sources that do not meet with state approval. The difference now is that we have proof of the activities of the Chinese government as it pertains to activities against their citizens which violate human rights.

You knew all that when you started spamming this thread, of course.

[malaise]

162. And the Patriot Act faciltates what again? n/t

[The Northerner]

16. Agreed

I don't like their harsh rules but then again I don't live there or run their country.

Clinton is taking it too far.

[HeresyLives]

23. Ahhh an open mind!

No, I don't live there either, and wouldn't. But it's their country and they can run it any way they damn well please, and yelling at them won't have any effect whatever.

[guyton]

2. what can we do to pull manufacturing back here?

I'm getting really tired of supporting these guys with almost every purchase I make.

[HeresyLives]

3. Nothing.

It isn't coming back. Move on.

[guyton]

35. I don't believe that for a minute

I do believe a lot of US companies have had to move their manufacturing to China to be competitive.

Which is to say, if their competitors *also* had to manufacture in the US, they'd be fine.

There are any number of ways to encourage (require) manufacturing to return to the US.

Here's a few

- ban imports from oppressive regimes
- ban imports from excessively polluting countries
- ban imports from countries with slave labor
- ban imports from countries without an enforced minimum wage approximately equal to ours
- ban imports from countries without strong unions

Ok, stop laughing. Maybe following the above list wouldn't be practical ... at least in the short run.

But don't say nothing can be done, there's just a price to be paid ... if we had the stomach for it.

And don't underestimate the level of anger of the average voter watching the money flow to China.

[HeresyLives]

45. Well, unless you believe in miracles, it ain't gonna happen.

Those jobs aren't coming back on their own, and you can't force them back.

You ban all that and you'll be as dead as North Korea is.

[madrchsod]

94. really .....

the united states are going to be as dead as north korea?

on what facts do you base your assumptions?

[HeresyLives]

98. Yes, really.

If you want to be Fortress America, you can look to Fortress N Korea for your future.

[madrchsod]

103. that makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

[HeresyLives]

106. Neither does waving a flag all the time,

but you do it anyway.

Flags, however, don't solve problems.

[quakerboy]

110. That is untenable

If it isn't coming back, and the rest of the world is perfectly happy to appropriate anything intellectual that comes out quicker than we would, then there is nothing else to "move on" to.

Our other choices are to use force to make them give us the manufactured goods we want, give up having manufactured goods, or to stop living here(either by stopping living or by stopping being here). None of those are acceptable. Thus we need to bring some level of it back to be sustainable. From that point of view, and getting down to the gritty, we have nuclear weapons and seem to have a relative lack of sense or consideration of others as a country. What happens when the US becomes so degraded that we are desperate?

[HeresyLives]

112. No, quite tenable.

It's not coming back, so put your thinking caps on, and discover a new way to exist in the world.

Your 'other choice' is the knowledge economy, not the industrial one.

Don't be so absurd as to threaten to 'nuke' 6 billion other people.

Is war always your Plan B?

[guyton]

115. knowledge economy

Funny you should bring that up. I usually say ..

- either bring back manufacturing, or
- free college for everyone

Pick one.

A high school education is ok for a manufacturing job, but for today economy, you need a college degree.

There needs to be free college or manufacturing or we're going to be a third world country very soon.

[HeresyLives]

123. Well you can't bring back manufacturing,

so I guess you'll have to go with a second GI bill.

[quakerboy]

116. You repeatedly speak of history. Have you been paying any attention to us?

The only time War is not America's Plan B when its Plan A. I happen to be a pacifist. But do you think for a second that the faction of this country that supported Palin would hesitate to "nuke" someone far away in another country, who speaks another language and has a different skin color and a different religeon? And as the economy gets worse, who can say what/who desperate people will support?

The knowledge economy is not a viable option to support as large a country as the US. This is partially shown by your other discussions running through this thread. There is nothing we have going intellectually that cannot be "appropriated" by other countries, including China. Whether we have/would do it to others is irrelevant. They are doing it to us. And to be honest, the US population is neither smart enough, motivated enough, nor educated enough to fully support itself this way. Partially, sure. But not in its entirety.

So, since thats nonviable, whats your next plan? Something that meets the following criterion: Realistically provides adequate financial support for the 300 million people of the US, to keep them from getting desperate enough to do something Crazy. Or, if you will, even crazier, cause I would argue Bush2 was pretty crazy of us already.

[HeresyLives]

118. You have a very short history.

And yes, so far it's been violent.

However, there are others in the world that can match ... and overmatch...that violence. Like a parent can give a child a cuff.

Yes, the knowledge economy is your only solution, and yes it can support the US.

If you feel you can't keep up to the rest of the world intellectually, then I can't help you.

You will simply dwindle into history.

[quakerboy]

156. And yet it is the history we have

And ignoring it is just as arrogant and dangerous as ignoring China's history while treating with China, or any other country.

The problem that we face is that there is no longer an option to simply dwindle into history. The level of destructive technology now makes that impossible. Look to Russia. That applies double to your "overmatch' comment. There is no overmatching global nuclear war. It leaves us all dead. If we are all dead, there is no winner and looser, no "parent" or "child". And thousands of years of culture or hundreds, they all end the same way when effected by radiation.

You can delude yourself as you wish. But just as you accuse others of being ignorant of China, you are ignorant of the US if you think that it can be ignored. We may be young, but what time we have had proves our violence against others, and the weapons in our hands mean that there is no country that can "overmatch" our potential act of desperation. There is a strong faction here that are rooting for the end of days. And as with most any group of humans, when things get desperate, people accept solutions that they would never consider in better times.

[alp227]

28. Sorry...it's not a right to take away others' fundamental rights

Whether government does so (China) or the people's vote does it (California Proposition 8).

[HeresyLives]

29. Well, those are YOUR values.

They aren't universal.

[Pavulon]

51. Yeah, accepting oppressive governments

and turning a blind eye are not my values.

[HeresyLives]

56. Well, good for you.

However, you don't run the world.

PS...looked at your govt lately?

[MellowDem]

57. Cultural relativism...

has to be one of the more stupid ideas on Earth. Look, no one is saying that the US is perfect or anything like that. But this is a progressive site, and as progressives, we tend to root for our ideals and values.

I do find it intersting that you imply that Chinese cultural values are somehow inherently oppressive simply because their leadership is. Is that what you call amateur anthropology? Governments and laws do not equal culture. They can and will be criticized.

[HeresyLives]

63. Well that assumes all your values are progressive.

And everyone elses values are therefore regressive. Not everybody sees it that way.

Cultures aren't 'relative', they simply 'are'.

[MellowDem]

72. "Progressive"

in this form means a certain set of ideals. Obviously, the name can literally mean different things, but I think you get the idea.

I would have to disagree with cultures not being relative. If you have values and opinions, cultures will be relative to those values. You will like some cultures more than others, and that's ok. It's an opinion, obviously, but that's fine. This is why cultures adapt and change, and especially at such a fast pace nowadays. Some cultural traits are better to survive in this modern world than others, and you see an "evolution" of sorts that cultures go through to be able to better fit the times.

[HeresyLives]

76. 'Progressive' means different things to different people.

The countries of the world exist on different time lines.

We have never all been on the same page at the same time.

[JDPriestly]

148. How would you define the values of Chinese society at this time?

[wickerwoman]

59. Tell that to this guy:

Guess he didn't get the memo on "Chinese" values.

[HeresyLives]

70. Actually he stood up for Chinese values.

[wickerwoman]

89. Not according to your post #29.

The point is that China isn't a monolith. You can't make statements like "Those are *your* values and not China's values" and expect to be taken seriously.

There are any number of people in China who value free speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, transparent government, etc. The problem is they get run over by tanks when they stand up for those things.

That is the fundamental fact of Chinese life that you are ignoring when you say "we have no right to interfere... their values are not are values."

[HeresyLives]

92. Are you aware of Chinese values?

Or do you just go by the govt and news story of the day?

Should the world judge all of America by Bush?

No, the Chinese have always had an emperor, and they don't share your values.

And no, you have no right to interfere.

How would you like it if China insisted their values were 'universal' and they had a 'right' to interfere in YOUR country?

American values are not universal. Other cultures think differently. That's what makes them 'other cultures.'

[wickerwoman]

97. I lived there for six years.

And no the Chinese have not always had an emperor. Sun Yat-sen anyone?

Cultures don't think. People do.

What about the values of my landlady who carved democratic messages into her own arm with a razor blade after Tiananmen and still has the scars to show? Do those count for anything?

What about my other friend whose parents were sent to a forced labor camp because they were university professors and who spent her entire teen years making dumplings for farmers instead of going to school?

What about the values of my work colleague who went to secret Christian services and could have been arrested for owning a bible?

What I found in my long *experience* in China was that our values weren't in fact different at all. What was different was our ability to express those values in the face of state power. All they could do was deport me and I had enough money that I didn't give a shit.

You are not defending "Chinese values" because there is no such thing. What you are defending, inadvertently I hope, is oppressive state power.

[HeresyLives]

100. Well that's nice, but irrelevant.

You were a visitor for 6 years. That does not give you an understanding of the long sweep of Chinese history.

A visitor to America for 6 years doesn't understand your culture either.

The Chinese have always had an Emperor...a strong man in charge...they still do, no matter what they call him.

They have never had 'democracy.' Nor do they see much value in it.

The Chinese culture and their values are very old, and well-embedded, no matter what individuals do from time to time.

Their values are very different than yours.

What is this 'defending' business? I'm not defending or promoting anything. I'm pointing out that other people think differently than you do. And that's not wrong or right, it just is.

[wickerwoman]

113. Sorry, but that's a lame response.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat_Sen

It is factually incorrect that "The Chinese have always had an Emperor." They have not had an Emperor since 1911. Even if you count Mao as an Emperor, you are ignoring 1911-1949. For someone who insists on a firm understanding of Chinese history, it's kind of funny that you know absolutely nothing about the Republic of China and the Three Principles of the People: sovereignty, *democracy* and populism.

And you are the one presuming to speak for all Chinese people when you say "Their values are very different than yours." All I have ever said in this thread is that "they" aren't as unified as you think they are. Many of "them" share many of our values. I know because it was my job to talk to "them" for six years. I'm sorry but I was not a visitor. I lived in a regular apartment in a regular neighborhood and worked for a Chinese company where I was one of only two non-Chinese employees. I spent several years as a teacher and journalist which gave me an opportunity to interview thousands of Chinese people about their lives and ideas. What are your credentials that make you such an expert on what 5 billion people are apparently all thinking and believing at the same time?

Mao banned teaching Confucius because he was old-fashioned and many Chinese people in their 20s and 30s know absolutely nothing about him. So which one represents "Chinese" values. Mao or Confucius? Hundreds of thousands of Chinese people are Muslim, tens of thousands are Christian. The government is secular. Which belief system is "Chinese"? And China is made up of 57 ethnic groups including several matriarchal cultures and several male chauvinist ones. Which one represents "Chinese values"?

It's not as easy as you think to lump 5 billion people together and say they share fundamental values and that the values of all of those people are different from the values of 300 million Americans who also believe very different things.

Because you are discounting and ignoring the values of everyone who is not a hardline member of the CCP, you are defending state power over the voices of individuals. 70% of Chinese people (that's 3,500,000,000 people) aren't members of the CCP and quite a few people who are only joined to get a better job, not because they actually agree with the doctrine.

Why don't their "values" count just as much as the party line? There's a hell of a lot more of them.

[HeresyLives]

114. Please read the thread before you reply.

The Chinese have always had an emperor...a strong man in charge...no matter what they call him.

I don't presume to speak for anyone, much less 1.2 billion Chinese. There are NOT 5 billion Chinese btw.

However, their values are very different than your own.

I know you'd like to think they're all secretly American...but they're not.

What the hell does the CCP have to do with any of this?

And no, I'm not defending anything...nothing needs defending.

China is China, and you'll just have to live with that.

[wickerwoman]

117. And so will the Tibetans, ethnic Muslims and Mongolians, I guess.

Answer me one simple question:

The Naxi believe that only women should own property and that inheritance should run through the female line. Women do all the work while the men take care of the children and play music.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naxi_people

In Shaanxi, men who die without a wife need to be buried with a woman to take care of them. So the man's family will buy a woman's dead body (or dig one up) to bury with him. To this day, girls are sometimes kidnapped and killed to provide ghost brides.

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9558423

Which one is the "Chinese" value that I should be respecting? Women should rule society or women are just objects to bear children and take care of men?

[HeresyLives]

I'm sure you care deeply about them.

Much like you care about your 'Indians', the Afghans and the Iraqis.

Pat Robertson believes in a lot of strange things.

So answer me one simple question.

Do I judge all Americans by his beliefs?

[wickerwoman]

124. You first.

Who is "Chinese" the Naxi or the people in Shaanxi? Is it a Chinese value that women make all the decisions or that women be killed to provide comfort in the afterlife?

[JDPriestly]

150. Afghans and Iraqis are not Americans.

Pat Robertson and Indians are all Americans. In fact, in case you are unaware, our system of government is in part inspired by certain Indian traditions in self-government. Thomas Jefferson in particular studied I believe it was the Iroquois. Our Constitution is in part inspired by Indian forms of government. Our culture, our belief is to permit a marketplace of ideas that is free and relatively uncensored. That is also the secret of our creativity in scientific and technological areas.

The great leaps forward in technology in Europe have their roots in the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, periods in which individuals enjoyed relatively more freedom to explore ideas without censorship than at the preceding times.

Censorship is the enemy of creativity and of originality in scientific and technological (as well as artistic) endeavors. That is why our Western culture advanced so rapidly while Eastern culture stagnated. See above my experience with the Russian clothespins.

Competition increases competency, but it does not increase creativity unless people also feel free to explore their own ideas -- feel safe in exploring their own sometimes absurd and useless ideas.

[wickerwoman]

153. This is also factually inaccurate.

You are overlooking that other great Chinese invention: the civil service. The power of the Emperor in China was for many periods quite weak as many decisions were made by bureaucrats and minor functionaries. China had many child emperors and in those periods power was held by the Dowager Queen or by eunuchs of the court or by chancellors. China has nothing like an unbroken history of "strong man" leaders.

China has nothing like an unbroken history, period. It has had fifteen different capital cities representing different reshufflings of centralized power, particularly during the Warring States Period when "China" was actually seven different countries. So when you say "China is the oldest civilization" or "China is 5000 years old" you really have to specify what you mean by "China".

The same "the people need a strong man" line was also used to excuse Stalin's policies in Russia. It is a ridiculous and historically ignorant justification for abuses of state power.

[JDPriestly]

149. Stange. I have known lots of Chinese people in the U.S. and have

friends and have had colleagues of Chinese ethnicity. They all value freedom and detest dictators. Yet they are firmly Chinese. Seems that once people of Chinese ethnicity taste freedom, they love it. Interesting that you, living in Canada, don't value freedom. Why do you live in the West if you don't value our culture?

[Pavulon]

155. And this is why I love DU.

The vast life experiences of the people who post here is impressive. Been there, done that, talking from experience is a nice thing to see.

Best of luck to you.

[proteus_lives]

140. You need to step away from the Little Red Book.

And get a clue.

[JDPriestly]

147. Yes. Those values are universal.

Other values are merely superficial. The values of freedom and individuality are the values that each being on the planet, not just humans but also animals and plants share.

Animals, plants, humans are social. (Yes, some plants are social.) But, societies are formed by individuals. The drive to survive is unique to each being, plant, animal, human. And that is what drives life on our planet from the amoeba to the most complex human or dolphin.

[inna]

39. interesting. i thought this was all about the "google controversy",

i had no idea Hillary injected herself in this one.

[HeresyLives]

60. I'm sure that's what set of this latest round

of complaints about China.

[Pavulon]

68. Just a visible face on ongoing industrial espionage

that china has been conducting to catch up to sensitive or lucrative markets like aerospace and technology.

[HeresyLives]

73. No, just normal conditions.

The US of course never pays the slightest attention to aerospace and technology elsewhere, right?

[Pavulon]

79. We pay for our R&D. We look over our shoulder

in aerospace, technology is generally more complicated. Are you talking about PC's or the technology used to take high quality pictures from space.

[HeresyLives]

82. Some of it you do.

[onehandle]

88. Who cares what slave labor central thinks? nt

[HeresyLives]

93. Your economy does.

[onehandle]

95. Seal off the West Coast ports and bring manufacturing jobs back to America.

Fuck the Chinese Communists.

[HeresyLives]

96. Your companies would just leave.

And the cost of what's left of your manufactured goods would be so high, most people couldn't afford them

[madrchsod]

102. not true....devalue the dollar,ride out the storm.

the usa has the ability to make it`s own goods to meet the needs of it`s citizens.the problem is the country lacks the will to do so.

[HeresyLives]

104. Your dollar is devaluing on it's own.

The US has to trade like every other country...or you'll simply die.

No country is self-sufficient, nor can it be.

[madrchsod]

108. no one has stated that the usa would not trade with another country.

[HeresyLives]

109. Well then, what's your complaint?

[Occulus]

134. We can seize their physical assets and R&D and use them to our advantage

it's called "eminent domain".

[JDPriestly]

152. No, when we manufacture, we get higher wages.

Our financial sector would no longer attract our brightest and best. Our best mathematicians would become engineers, not economists. We could rebuild. Our manufacturing industry paid well before we started importing junk from China, India and other third world countries.

I have lived in various countries. Americans have the highest, best work ethic in the world. We are wonderful workers. Many of us are of German or British descent. Our culture has traditionally valued work.

We have not lost that. Americans are chafing at the bit to be working at tough, demanding, well paying jobs.

And we will rebuild our manufacturing base. The products we get from China are just so bad.

My Maytag washer, for instance is over 25 years old and still in great condition. No Chinese product will ever last like that. I bought it second hand -- 25 years ago -- but new it was, yes, expensive -- and worth every penny. My stove, made somewhere outside the U.S. is a little over a year old and already showing structural weaknesses due to flaws in the manufacturing of the materials. It's really sad.

Chinese labor is cheap and not worth much.

[madrchsod]

99. remember...we are just like them now

we are now run by the same kind of thugs as the chinese people are...

we could bring back our jobs but the supreme court made that impossible.

[HeresyLives]

101. You aren't remotely like the Chinese.

And Supreme Court or not, no you can't 'bring back' what you consider 'your' jobs.

[madrchsod]

105. once again your statement has no merit what so ever.

[HeresyLives]

107. Well name-call all you like,

but that still won't solve the problem, will it...

[Occulus]

135. Unless you consider yourself a walking floccinaucinihilipilification, he wasn't calling names n/t

[JDPriestly]

151. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

I have a friend whose daughter outsourced manufacturing in her company to China. It seemed like a good idea at the time. Unfortunately, all these many years later, the mother's retail business has gone down the drain. Ordinary Americans just don't have the money to buy the mother's products because the manufacturing jobs have all been outsourced to China. It's really sad. That is what has happened here.

Fortunately, we have a representative democracy. The Chinese, Indian job-drain will not stop tomorrow. But sooner or later voters will put an end to it once and for all.

[HeresyLives]

111. 'Night all.

[smiley_glad_hands]

127. Fuck China and its 5000 year old history. eom

[Ter]

120. Didn't we invent the damn thing?

That should tell them something, no?

[HeresyLives]

122. Really? Did you?

[smiley_glad_hands]

128. Yeah, we invented the internet, now get the fuck off it. eom

[wickerwoman]

130. LOL

:loveya:

[Occulus]

133. +3.14159 n/t

[Occulus]

129. Um, yes, DARPA.

We did invent the internet. Really.

[Ter]

131. We as in the United States

Didn't know I had to be so clear.

[Ikonoklast]

158. The Chinese economy is a house of cards.

It is built on unsustainable growth, and government statistics that are lies.

I give it five years before imploding, and creating massive unrest in that country.

[JDPriestly]

143. I know someone who used to teach English as a Second Language on the West coast.

Many of the students in his program were from China. To proceed into regular college courses, they have to pass a test called the TOEFL (or at least they did at that time). The test is administered coast to coast on a certain day at rather regular intervals. One year, the scores of the students were unusually high. Turns out they had cheated. Chinese students who had taken the test on the East coast (a few hours earlier because of the time difference) had communicated the questions and answers to the students in the program on the West Coast.

[Downwinder]

157. What is the difference between China hacking and the U.S. taping? n/t

[treestar]

159. Well they do need those lessons

Tianamen square was just the beginning baby! When those millions of people with more and more contact with the West every day realize that freedom is an option, they are going to want it.

And they are going to take it!

[anonymous171]

160. Geez, sure is cultural relativist in here.

[lib2DaBone]

161. The United States invented television technology.... and gave it away..

The U.S. built the Panama Canal.. Jimmy Carter gave it away to China.. (well, not directly to China.. but they now control it none-the-less)

Bill Clinton gave China super high-speed computer Technology. What did we get out of the deal?

American corporations are sending the latest manufacturing technology to China instead of the U.S. (Politicians now claim that American workers are not "competitive"... gee.. I wonder why? )

And now.. the Supreme Court says Corporations are people....