Been a lot of "God Blessing" going on the TV today about the Haiti tragedy

[NNN0LHI]

And I think its completely understandable. These poor Haitian people don't have anything left but their faith. Thats what they are down to. And they didn't have much before the earthquake. Now they ain't got nothing. Except despair.

In the same situation I could picture myself doing some heavy duty praying right about now too.

I guess there probably really are no atheists in fox holes. At least not many.

Strange isn't it?

Don

[BP2]

1. The goddess is watching over them too. eom

[Nikki Stone1]

36. Yes.

.

[rd_kent]

50. Well then, perhaps you can get your goddess to do more that just watch.

[BP2]

56. She won't. AFAIC, she expects everyone to get off their butts and do it themselves. eom

[rd_kent]

2. Why would a god do this to people who have so much "faith" in the first place?

What I find strange, is that people are very quick to attribute good events to god all the time, but NEVER do they attribute the bad events, like this horrific tragedy, to god.



I truly feel for the people of Haiti and have donated to relief causes, but IMO, praying is only wasting time. God is not going to save any of those people, other people are, and they need OUR help, not our prayers.

[Rage for Order]

4. Therein lies the rub...

However, I heard it put this way once and it stuck in my head:

"People who believe in God have to explain why bad exists in the world, while people who don't believe in God have to explain why everything exists in the first place."

:shrug:

[HeresyLives]

9. The key word is 'explain'.

Not just make stuff up.

[Rage for Order]

15. But it's impossible to know if people are "just making stuff up"

Until you die and see where you are (or aren't) going, existing, doing, etc. Why do thousands who have near-death experiences report seeing similar things...light at the end of the tunnel, family and friends who have passed away appearing to them, etc? Surely it's not coincidence. I don't pretend to know the answers, but I keep an open mind about it, as I believe there is more than just this worldly existence. I just don't know what the "more" is.

[HeresyLives]

17. Certainly it is.

People have reported seeing strange things for centuries, but they vary with the times. For example people used to see leprechauns and fairies, then it was demons, eventually it was Mary or Jesus, nowadays it's aliens.

We know little about the human mind, but we do know people tend to see what their culture tells them to.

Where do you go when you sleep? Our minds see all kinds of things in dreams, but they're not real.

[Rage for Order]

18. See, that's where you're wrong

"...eventually it was Mary or Jesus, nowadays it's aliens."

People still see Jesus all the time. To wit:



:)

[Arugula Latte]

31. I'm pretty sure that's Frank Zappa.

[brendan120678]

53. Someone needs a better toaster...

that one doesn't brown the bread evenly.

[Zoeisright]

44. That is easily explained by brain chemistry.

We all 'see' the same thing under extreme physical trauma because we all have brains wired the same way, with memories. The 'bright light' and 'tunnel' are explained too.

All of our brains die the same way, which is why all of those NDEs (near death experiences) are so similar. Neurotransmitters are firing rapidly and shutting down, creating illusions.

People aren't 'making stuff up'. But it's hardly anything spiritual or a precursor to 'heaven' either.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/250349/an_explanation_of_near_death_experience.html?cat=58

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KittyWampus]

10. There are different kinds of prayers. I really wish the knee-jerk attitudes towards anything to do

with spirituality, consciousness and reality would break down a bit.

[OI812]

12. Millions of people believe God has "a plan" but when things get dicey they pray for Him to

change them.

Praying produces exactly the same chance of success as a flip of the coin does. You are right, they
need help from actual beings, not prayers.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god-toc.htm

[BP2]

22. For good to prevail, evil must exist. Also, in the circle of life, there must also be death. In the

end, IMO, the god and goddess won't SAVE anyone. They're impartial forces of nature, not Disney characters sitting around in the clouds drinking wine in their flowing robes.

They will only give you inspiration and hope, which these people do need.

However, it's up to YOU to pick up a shovel, or open your wallet, if you want to help these poor people:

Haiti Earthquake Relief: How You Can Help
links to the Red Cross, UNICEF, Yele Haiti, and Operation USA
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/12/haiti-earthquake-relief-h_n_421014.html

[AnneD]

32. With faith in a greater power....

we have hope. With out hope we have nothing. A belief in a greater power is sometimes essential to a recovery as much as food, clothing and shelter.

[rd_kent]

35. Faith is not required for hope.

But do you not see the hypocrisy is believing a god is going to save you from the aftermath of a disaster that the god should have prevented in the first place?

[AnneD]

43. Ah but it is....

you have to have faith (not faith in the sense religious belief) in something in order to have hope, even if it is only faith in your own will to survive. Ask any survivor of a catastrophic event- a POW, for example and they will tell you faith gives hope. Most folks find it easier to believe in a God to accomplish this sense of faith.

I am mature enough in my religious faith to realize that "rain falls on the just as well as the unjust" Matthew 5:45. Praying to God will not cause or prevent nature from happening. But my faith in God (or any faith) gives me hope that will help me survive.

One of the oldest books in the bible, Job, deals with this very subject. It has taken me years and much thought to come to terms with this book. As I grow older and have seen and gone through more tragedies, it has deepened my understanding of faith and hope.

I hope I have given you a nugget to chew on. It is nice to reflect on 'deep thoughts' now and again. Helps us get a handle on incomprehensible things.

[rd_kent]

49. Then you are referring to different definitions of faith.

And I see what you mean, that faith does not necessarily mean faith in a deity. But the hope I am talking about comes from the feelings one gets when things and people are doing what they need to do and one "hopes" it will work out ok. I think it really is just a matter of semantics. If one has "faith" that god will do something, then that "faith" is based on nothing but "faith". If one "hopes" that the relief efforts to help the people of Haiti is successful, it is based on the fact that many countries and people are ACTIVELY participating in an effort to help others.


I don't know if I am putting it right so you can understand what I am getting at, but there is, in the sense that I am using the words, a difference between faith and hope.

[AnneD]

59. It is interesting that....

the word faith (belief) also connotes religious belief (a specific Deity). I think we are close-maybe looking at the same coin from a different side.

Remember that some times can be so bleak, the only thing that sustains us is faith (or our personal faith). I really think the ability to have faith is uniquely human. Otherwise we just exist. I would like to think I am call to a higher level of existence and held to a higher standard of behavior than any animal (although animals best us sometimes).

[WolverineDG]

62. Rain falls on the just & unjust alike

another way of saying "Shit happens. Deal with it."

dg

[LanternWaste]

38. Read more. A lot more.

"but NEVER do they attribute the bad events, like this horrific tragedy, to god."

Read more. A lot more. It will help. i.e, "God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world." ~ C.S. lewis

Lots and lots of both the good and the negative attributed to God. That you're not ware of it is something you can remedy.



"and they need OUR help, not our prayers..."
One does not deny the other.

[rd_kent]

60. Oh come on!

Were speaking in generalities here. You know, everyday events?

I see your point, do you see mine?

[spoony]

64. Good post.

And yes, there is at least as much written about faith in hardship--if not more--than about faith in prosperity.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

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[HarveyDarkey]

47. exactly

[spoony]

63. That really isn't so.

The bad is taken with the good, in every faith I've studied. Except for prosperity televangelism, God's will is not just when checks arrive in the mail. It's good to help, though, which should be the focus now. I'll leave it at that.

[HeresyLives]

3. It always strikes me as bizarre.

After all, who caused the earthquake?

Even the Archbishop of Port-au-Prince has been killed.

[MineralMan]

25. Who? Nobody. No human and no deity.

Earthquakes are cause by plate tectonics. An earthquake a natural phenomenon that is well understood.

Attributing natural phenomena to deities is one of the most moronic things people do in the name of religion.

[AnneD]

33. Nature caused the disaster....

not God. A faith in God will help them survive with a sense of hope.

[sandnsea]

5. They've got Bill Clinton

If anybody can make lemonade from this nightmare, he can. Those poor people. And most of us in the US aren't in a position to help the way we were after the tsunami. We're going to have to dig deep.

[jobycom]

6. There are many atheists in foxholes, but I wouldn't tell anyone

that I disagree with their source of comfort at a time like this.

[HeresyLives]

8. Actually there shouldn't be any 'christians' in foxholes,

because Jesus was opposed to war and killing.

[jobycom]

13. Gods tend to be as flexible as their followers wish them to be.

Anyway, there are gods other than the Christian ones.

Funny post. :thumbsup:

[NoNothing]

30. Christians can still get drafted

My understanding from relatives is that the phrase is commonly misunderstood to refer to even agnostic soldiers praying for safety in times of great danger. But really they weren't praying for safety; they were praying for forgiveness for what they had done.

[LanternWaste]

41. would be a most valid statement...

I imagine if one reads through a dogmatic lens denying textual criticism and other possible interpretations (kinda like the fundies) that would be a most valid statement

[dhpgetsit]

7. People tend to do that when faced with such tragedy.

When we know our own efforts can never begin to relieve such suffering we try to ease our minds with the belief that there is ultimate justice and salvation.

[earth mom]

11. I feel bad for the Haitians, but it's not acceptable for the news to go all fundie.

They are supposed to be impartial.

Glad I don't watch those fake bastards anymore.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SidDithers]

14. If only they'd prayed harder before the earthquake...nt

sid

[blondeatlast]

16. In a time of crisis, I'd just look away if an atheist decided to pray or a faithful

cursed their god.

We're human and we get along however we can.

[kenny blankenship]

19. Apparently your God really fucking hates Haiti and the Haitian people.

Go ahead and pray to that monster if you think he'll spare you for pissing your pants in fear.

[blondeatlast]

20. Wow. do you have that intensity of hate for a terrified Haitian who

beseeches his god (even a voodoo one)?

Just wow.

[kenny blankenship]

21. None whatsoever.

I do hate idiots who argue that poor people wailing in the jaws of an incomprehensible tragedy are proof of the existence of God.

[blondeatlast]

29. That I can understand perfectly. nt

[rd_kent]

26. Sounds like a hate for a made-up god, not hate for Hatian people.

Unless your reading comprehension is that low, you should have picked up on that.

[BP2]

24. As a former atheist, I know from where you speak. However, there is a difference between

healthy skepticism of Deity, as opposed to just a plain, old hateful disposition.

I don't like the fact Haiti has a "state religion." But it is what it is. Faith can move mountains for those who choose to do believe.


If your point is that it's up to these people to pick up a shovel and heal themselves and their neighbors, I agree.

Regardless, I hope you don't mind if I send a little Reiki energy their way.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

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[Bluenorthwest]

23. The atheists in Foxholes line always amuses me

Because so many teachings of every faith tell of the faithful ceasing to believe during trying times, or of blaming their deity in harsh and bitter ways. Just saying that the 'holy books' sort of teach that there are few really faithful in Foxholes, or even under smaller duress. Even Jesus is said to have prayed for his fate to be altered, when face with the impending pain that fate included. It seems that even those who still believe are rarely joyous in their respective foxholes.
It is an ironic tack to take, that foxholes thing, if you ask me.

[Arugula Latte]

27. What kind of an asshole deity causes this destruction?

Funny how this so-called "god" gets all the praise, none of the blame. People let that bastard get away with mass murder.

Religion -- what crock.

[AnneD]

28. I read a book on Haitian history as a child.....

I have never seen a country like it that could be truly described as a land of constant sorrows. With out sounding too mushy, I hope this brings a cycle of love and caring that breaks this destructive cycle. A tsunami type relief program is desperately needed. My heartfelt prayers to those surviving this disaster.

[WI_DEM]

34. Who really cares? I just hope they get the help they need.

[BP2]

48. Ditto.

[Hello_Kitty]

37. I'm sure fundie churches here are readying large shipments of tax exempt Bibles as we speak

Just like they did for the Asian tsunami victims. Because who the fuck needs food or water when they have Jeebus.

[Goblinmonger]

46. I wasn't going to intrude on this thread until the foxholes line

I was just reading to see what people were saying.

I really, really hate the "no atheists" line. How insulting. Does it make you feel better to think that in times of crisis we will all pray to a god and be just like you.

I don't believe in god. In times of crisis, I still won't believe in god. If that gets people through things, fine. Have at it. But stop projecting your thoughts on me to make yourself feel better.

[Hello_Kitty]

51. Good point. It is really presumptious.

I'm an unmarried woman with no kids (and like it that way) and throughout my 20s and 30s annoying people would tell me crap like "you'll change your mind when you meet the right man". Made me want to knock the smug look right off their faces. And no, I didn't change my mind and I'm damn glad I didn't. Smug religious people are just as annoying.

[BP2]

54. Nope. Freedom of religion means anyone can choose no religion. Rock on! But IMO, it's mean-spirited

to belittle those who do believe. They are who they are, just like you are who you are.

More power to your atheism! Thank the gods you live in a country that does not force a state religion, like Haiti does with Catholicism.

Even when I was an atheist, I still followed a code of ethics. Most I know do.

Nearly every person has some inner sense of right and wrong.

The demarcation line between the two extremes, and the reason why that line exists in the first place, is part of what identifies us as free-thinking individuals.

[Goblinmonger]

55. I think we are on the same page.

I don't know how I belittled any believers. I do think that the "no atheists in foxholes" meme DOES belittle nonbelievers, though.

[BP2]

58. Cheers to mutual respect! Live and let live. But if someone fucks with me or my brethren, they

should expect a response in kind :spank:

Hell hath no fury like this Wiccan scorned.

[Jokerman]

66. Agreed.

Just another meaningless cliche' that religious people like to toss around.

[Dappleganger]

52. Haitians are a people of faith

in many things. Right now they need to have faith in the kindness of the rest of the world to reach out and help them in their time of need.

I hope that the many judgmental posts which I've seen (not yours in particular) will cease at least for a few days while *everyone* pitches in to help in this tragedy.

[spoony]

65. Yes, whatever one's beliefs are, a response must be the priority.

:thumbsup:

[The Straight Story]

57. I am sure some around here are glad catholics there had this happen to them

Since religious people are all hateful and are the only reason there is anything bad in this world.

Bigotry is alive and well.

[rd_kent]

61. Please point out anyone that is glad this happened.

[Goblinmonger]

70. Are you a member

of the Strawman's Local union chapter or is it just a hobby of yours?

I challenge you to find anyone on DU who said that. Or even implied that. Having disdain for the "I'm glad god spared me" does not equate to dancing on their grave.

[RedCappedBandit]

67. You're right..

there are no atheists in fox holes. Atheists are the ones working to get themselves out of that situation, rather than praying for someone else to do it for them

/bitter paraphrase

[bigwillq]

68. .....

:thumbsup:

What a crappy line about the foxholes. :puke:

[Odin2005]

69. Shit like this is why I CAN'T believe in a God.

If there is a God he is a sick, sadistic monster.