Grover Norquist

[Are_grits_groceries]

is and has been one of the prime movers in conservative circles for years. He has had his paws in issues and policies forever. He hasn't been a positive influence to say the least.

Norquist and his minions are one of the reasons this country is in such a mess. He and those he is associated with have made concerted efforts to shrink government to the point where it is ineffective. He is close now. He reminds me of Jim DeMint and I have had a noseful of him.

Google him and look up half the ideas and people he has been involved with. If I had any notion of wanting to join with him on anything, the people he is associated with gives me pause. In fact, it pauses me enough to stop.

I have admired Jane Hamsher. This is where I leave whatever parade she is leading. I agree that Rahm Emmanuel needs to be challenged directly. However, if joining Norquist is the way, count me out. The damage Rahm has caused is small potatoes to what Norquist and company have done.

I can't think of many people I would put higher on my list of traitorous bastards. He just remains more in the background than some.

In this case 'The enemy of my enemy is STILL my enemy."

[KittyWampus]

1. He is literally THE GUY who organized and disseminated Republican talking points

Not just on one issue. The whole deal.

And I do believe he still does. He holds weekly meetings.

Unlike reaching out to blacks who overall tend to be liberal and vote Democratic but regressive towards gays- Norquist and Teabaggers are not even close to supporting Democratic/Liberal policies.

[GoneOffShore]

2. Norquist is on my permanent shit list

He is a lying peddler of economic woo and discredited libertarian philosophy.

[KittyWampus]

6. He is a lot more than that. He is the guy who holds weekly meetings to organize Republican lies

[Parker CA]

3. K&R

[Ozymanithrax]

4. In order to Save America from the Health Care bill they had to destory it..

Casualties of political war and all that.



Clearly, Jane has sold herself to the Pimpmeister NOrquist.

So I will quote SNL and leave it at that, "Jane you ignorant slut."

[Adelante]

5. Grover Fucking Norquist

Unfuckingreal.

[Wardoc]

7. Ideas > personalities. Allying for a single issue is a promise of no more than that.

[KittyWampus]

10. Allying yourself with someone who literally wants to destroy you is a lot more than that.

[Are_grits_groceries]

13. Appearances count.

Jane just slimed herself to some people and made others think she was on their side. I have NO reason to join with that man on any supposed common cause. His reasons for something trump any wish I have to help him.

As I said, he is one of those that I wouldn't have anything to do with. Politicians turn and make alliances like this all the time. I didn't think Hamsher was that " ." I have no idea what word to put there. I would work with some people. Norquist - not in this lifetime.

[BeyondGeography]

8. Shrink it so you can drown it Grover? Bipartisanship is date rape Grover?

:crazy:

[CreekDog]

9. If I was trusting Hamsher's judgement before, her vocal partnering with Norquist has changed that

good job Jane.

now i need to crosscheck everything you recommend.

THANKS.A.LOT!

[fascisthunter]

11. He Likes to Drown Babies in Bathtubs

well, he recommended doing so to all that tax payer's cash the government had until Georgie the fascist boy gave all away to his buddies.

[SalviaBlue]

12. This is the deciding factor for me.

To ally with Grover Norquist against a Democrat is unacceptable. I do not support what Hamsher is doing.

[guruoo]

14. Rham must be effective, or Norquist wouldn't be going to so much trouble to remove him

[Are_grits_groceries]

15. Norquist is out to

do as much damage as possible to government structure. If Rahm fits into his scheme, he'll use him as an excuse. I won't stand with Norquist on ANYTHING.

[guruoo]

17. Of their strategy, I like to say: 'When they don't get their way, they destroy the institution'...

He's the definitive example of what I refer to as a 'totalitarian capitalist'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Norquist

[OHdem10]

16. During the Bush Adm. every Tuesday AM Norquist had meeting

with GWB. He was the bridge between all the different groups
in the base. He kept the base informed and GWB informed so
they were on the same page. This is why Bush always had
support on all his cockymaimee ideas.

Norquist also believes the government government should be
cut until it is small enough to be flushed down the bathtub.
Cut Spending and Cut Taxes is his mantra and he goes through
the country preaching this gospel.

Personally, I have never understood the concern over Rahm.
If Obama did not agree with Rahm, Rahm could do nothing.

Obama is one our smarter(intelligence) Presidents. He is
not some weak-kneed naive soul being pushed around by Rahm.

If Obama wanted Liberal Input, he would have appointed a
Liberal for some position where he would have direct access
to him.

[guruoo]

18. Exactly.

Couldn't have put it better myself :thumbsup:

[Are_grits_groceries]

19. I am aghast at this move. nt

[Starry Messenger]

20. Yeah, I'm not sure where she was going with that.

The teabaggers think the bill is socialism and hate it. Larf. Those of us on the left fighting it want it to be more like socialism. I'm not sure why she thought there was any intersection in those stances.

[DailyGrind51]

21. Norquist unified the goals of the cultural and economic conservative groups,

yielding two Bush terms.

[jmowreader]

22. A couple years ago...

Remember when Jack Abramoff was in the news? I did a net diagram of the linkages Jack Abramoff had in the conservative underworld...very, very interesting to say the least.

The center of the conservative underworld is three men: Jack Abramoff, Ralph Reed (yes, the Christian Coalition guy) and Grover Norquist. Norquist runs Americans for Tax Reform and a LOT of other things. The most interesting project is the Ronald Reagan Legacy Project. Supposedly a vehicle to get Ronnie's name plastered on something in every COUNTY in the United States--okay, they do that too--the RRLP is really a networking operation for a lot of large and small Republican names. Through RRLP Norquist can have some measure of influence over the workings of even the lowest levels of government. It's fairly repulsive how ingrained he is, but he's right there.

It gets even more fun. Are you aware that Jack Abramoff is, or at least WAS, one of the major players in the push toward gaming compacts for Native American tribes? If you play poker in any Indian Casino, some of your money is going to Jack Abramoff.

The three most traitorous bastards in the United States, without question, are Jack Abramoff, Ralph Reed and Grover Norquist. Shrub has nothing on them.

[Are_grits_groceries]

23. That's exactly why I don't want to get near Norquist or

anybody allied with him. There are too many noxious connections. I don't want to be caught giving them directions to the mall much less anything else.

[ellie]

43. I hate to use the word evil

but it fits for Norquist. That fucker is evil. A traitor, through and through.

[ipaint]

24. A little perspective.

Verizon's blocking of a NARAL Pro-Choice America text message sent to the group's members sparked an unusual alliance with the Christian Coalition of America. Seeing a greater threat to free speech, these traditional foes co-wrote an op-ed for the Washington Post, calling on Congress to address censorship by phone companies and "guarantee the free flow of information."

------------------------------

Supporters of net neutrality include the Christian Coalition of America, MoveOn.org, National Religious Broadcasters, the Service Employees International Union, the American Library Association, AARP, ACLU, and every major consumer group in the nation. It includes the founders of the Internet and hundreds of companies that do business online.

-----------------------------

The ACLU has joined with such unlikely bedfellows as the Americans for Tax Reform, the American Conservative Union in forming a new coaliton, Patriots to Restore Checks and Balances, to oppose the Patriot Act. The group will be chaired by former Congressman Bob Barr.

----------------------------

The ACLU noted that pro-civil liberties resolutions have been passed in 375 communities in 43 states, including the state legislatures of Alaska, Hawaii, Vermont and New Hampshire. Most of the resolutions call upon Congress to bring the Patriot Act back in line with the Constitution. These communities represent approximately 56.2 million people.

Other groups participating: Citizens' Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, the Second Amendment Foundation and the American Association of Physicians and Surgeons. The New York Times has more.


http://wwww.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/20/817331/-A-History-Of-Strange-Alliances


Calm down.

[Are_grits_groceries]

25. Please don't tell me to calm down.

I am calm. I am stating exactly what my position is and where my line is drawn. Norquist is it for me. As I said, he is too embedded in damaging the government, and his motives are suspect. He has been up to no good with who knows who for years.

I have every right to be appalled by this move by Hamsher. MEH!

[ipaint]

27. Well you must certainly be beyond appalled since this is hardly the first time the left has

partnered with a right wing asshole as bad as Norquist. Actually Rahm is worse than Norquist because it's his ilk that allow peeople like norquist to come into power.

Be appalled, I could care less. That doesn't mean others of us wouldn't like a bit of info on situations past a present to inform our opinion.

[Are_grits_groceries]

29. I think it is fine for

you to look at a lot of info, and I am not being sarcastic.

I have just watched Norquist for years work in his shadowy ways, but never really acknowledged by the MSM. And again, I don't think Rahm is as bad because Rahm has nowhere near the power Norquist does. Rahm is a player on a much smaller stage.

Norquist has tentacles and alliances all through the RW movements. Norquist has had Rethugs coming to him for years at his weekly meetings. Even people like Condeleeza Rice have shown up. You don't become a major player on the RW without his approval.

Rahm can only wish for such power.

[ellie]

44. Do you even know anything about

Grover Norquist?

[KittyWampus]

26. trying desperately to do damage control for an idiot like Hamsher? Norquist is EVERY FUCKING ISSUE

not just one singular issue.

He is the guy who organized Republicans against EVERY ISSUE.

He coordinates the hatred and lies.

[ipaint]

28. You have no clue.

I guess the aclu is on the ever growing shit list too. They've committed the dirty deed several times with none other than norquist.

[Are_grits_groceries]

30. Oh, please.

The ACLU has had a long established policy about the rights of people and is about as absolutist a group as you can get. I know where they are coming from whether I like their allies or not.

Hamsher just took a big unexpected leap over the side with someone that I don't think she had to join forces with. If she wanted shock value, she got it.

[Luminous Animal]

37. Dean Baker also took that leap.

As well as DUer David Swanson. Were they also looking for shock value?

http://www.ourfuture.org/news-release/2009124902/left-right-coalition-calls-audit-federal-reserve-bernanke-reappointed-chair

Personally, as an activist who has had to do some very uncomfortable coalition work, I agree with Jane's reasoning as she presented it here:
http://firedoglake.com/2009/12/23/jane-hamsher-grover-norquist-call-for-rahm-emmanuel%E2%80%99s-resignation/#comment-2041237

Nobody would’ve cared if I’d called for Rahm’s resignation alone.

I met Grover’s wife when I was seated next to her and Seymour Hersh at a J-Street dinner (the one Chuck Schumer and Kirsten Gillibrand didn’t show up for). She’s a Kuwaiti of Palastinian descent and Grover has battled the right on that issue for years.

A few weeks ago CAF circulated a letter that Grover, Jamie Galbraith, Dean Baker and I all signed against reconfirming Bernanke until there was an audit of the Fed. So when I wanted to pursue this issue and thought it could use some left/right heft cutting through the media noise, I contacted him.

Yes, he’s Grover Norquist. I get it. Believe me, I haven’t been doing this for 5 years without realizing what that means. But that enormous bailout of Fannie & Freddie was going to get jammed through in the next week, and it wasn’t going to stop itself.

[kayla9170]

31. Interesting Pair Indeed.............

Link to article from the Atlantic-http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/12/odd_couple_of_norquist_hamsher_call_for_investigation_rahms_resignation.php

The history of Glover Norquist from Wiki-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Norquist

Video John Dingell Town Hall Meeting in August 2009 (Which I attended) and the Teabagger protesters, including the Members of the American for Tax Reform link-http://www.bloggingformichigan.com/diary/4532/video-fox-2-coverage-of-the-john-dingell-town-hall-meeting

At this Town Hall, members of Norquist so called group, shouted down Congressman Dingell on too many occasions. On the video, the guy holding the wheelchair of the other gentlemen, tried to attack Congressman Dingell. This man was took away in Handcuffs temporary..but not arrested. Congressman Dingell is about 80 years old, a FIRM UAW supporter (heck, he helped my Father get his Social Security Benefits started after he retired from GM because a of paperwork error), a lifelong supporter of Universal Health Care (he has introduced this legislation in the House, EVERY YEAR he has been there....which is over 40 years, I think).

The point is the Hamster believes that we should line up with people like this? People that would harass a U.S. Congressman who is a firm Middle Class, UAW, Union, Health Care Legislation supporter at a town hall? I think not.

I will stand with Congressman Dingell. Also, they-i.e. Teabaggers-Harassed his lovely wife Debbie Dingell in the hallway way leading into the Romulus Community Complex that night too.

[Luminous Animal]

32. Dean Baker, David Swanson, & Rob Weissman

have also joined Norquist in a left-right coalition. Will you reject them also?

http://www.ourfuture.org/news-release/2009125115/left-right-coalition-says-senate-banking-committee-must-delay-vote-bernanke-

[kayla9170]

34. Yes. If they want me to align with ANYONE

That will treat my Congressman, Congressman Dingell like this. I frankly do not care if the late Mother Teresa was with the Left-Right Coalition. Congressmen Dingell deserves respect and I would side again Mother Teresa in this case.

[Luminous Animal]

36. Dingell?

[Occulus]

33. Curse words in a thread title. What's this place coming to?

:P

[Luminous Animal]

35. Here's some more progressives that you can reject because of their association

with Norquist:

Chris Bowers, founder, OpenLeft
James Kenneth Galbraith, economist
Stephanie Taylor, co-founder, Progressive Change Campaign Committee

http://www.anewwayforward.org/node/168

[Are_grits_groceries]

56. Let me put it this way:

I will live on the streets in a box and eat poke salad for the rest of my life before I EVER (and I mean EVER) join Jim DeMint on anything. That rat bastard has done nothing but try to destroy the governing functions of SC. He believes that there is no place for government in our lives. I read his book, 'Saving Freedom,' to get a better idea about him.

He wants nothing less than to bring down the government and become King or Poobah or whatever. He is a serious and mean little fucker. DeMint cares nothing about the needs of people. He is the active face of Norquist. He would like to go back to the 'Articles of Confederation' and wind down from there. I have watched what he has done close up and personal.

Everybody on that list has a different reason to break up the banks or take down Bernanke. You better believe that Norquist and Schafly have some plan lined up to move with when and if that does happen. A rearrangement of the old system is a perfect time to try to affect the way a new system will be set up and evolve. While the progressives merrily watch the change, Norquist and his buddies will be pointing it in a direction that will make your head spin.

Then they will turn on those who still disagree with their philosophies such as progressives. To say that Hamsher and the rest aren't ready for that battle is an understatement. That has been a goal of Norquist for years, and they have the resources to make it very nasty.

I agree that the banks need to be reined in and Bernanke needs to be looked at more closely. However, I will find a different alliance to make that point. I won't give Norquist and DeMint any patina of respectibility to those who don't know them.

They are making a deal with the Devil to get rid of a Troll. Not worth it.

The combination of Norquist and DeMint is scary. If others align themselves with them, then so be it. They will reap the whirlwind.

[Luminous Animal]

38. Have you now or have you ever signed a letter in coalition with Grover Norquist.

Next time DUer David Swanson posts, I intend to ask him that question.

[carolinayellowdog]

39. Self-destruction based on self-deception

I've been an admirer of Jane Hamsher, but some people are so irredeemably evil that any alliance with them is just plain wrong. No one fits that description more than Norquist. Will Pitt's post today about snakes is quite applicable-- this will come back to bite her. She knows she's allying with a strong evil force, but thinks she can somehow thereby produce good results.

[blondeatlast]

41. Expresses my thoughts on this perfectly. Norquist is evil for the sheer pleasure

of being evil. He believes in democracy about as much as Stalin did.

There are no excuses for anyone on the Left allying with Norquist.

[blondeatlast]

40. What you said and then some. I'm appalled--and no amount of excuses from anyone at DU

acting as apologists for anyone enabling that traitorous slime of a rat's feces will change my mind. Norquist has NO ONE'S best interest at heart--not even his own. Fuck him all to hell and beyond (and *f* is not a word I use much).

He's evil purely for the sake of being evil.

[saltpoint]

42. But Jane loves Grover. She loves him she loves him she loves him she

loves him so.

Let us not to the marriage of true minds admit impediments.

Norquist is as bad as you say he is and worse.

[Catshrink]

45. Grover Norquist is a domestic terrorist

he's out to destroy America and under Bush, he nearly succeeded. He's still trying.

[Zenlitened]

46. K&R

Norquist and his minions are one of the reasons this country is in such a mess.

No question. :grr:

[TomCADem]

47. K & R! Grover Is One Of The Fathers Of Corporate Astro-Turf...

He took lobbying to an entirely new level by selling grass roots support to the highest bidder. Anyone who cites Grover Norquist's support is either seriously misinformed or not an actual liberal. Grover is even worse than most right wing extremists, because he actually applies his free market theology to the realm of politics by selling grass roots support to shill for corporate causes.

[ipaint]

48. Unlike rahm.

Rahm Emanuel's profitable stint at mortgage giant

"On Emanuel's watch, the board was told by executives of a plan to use accounting tricks to mislead shareholders about outsize profits the government-chartered firm was then reaping from risky investments. The goal was to push earnings onto the books in future years, ensuring that Freddie Mac would appear profitable on paper for years to come and helping maximize annual bonuses for company brass.

The accounting scandal wasn't the only one that brewed during Emanuel's tenure.

During his brief time on the board, the company hatched a plan to enhance its political muscle. That scheme, also reviewed by the board, led to a record $3.8 million fine from the Federal Election Commission for illegally using corporate resources to host fundraisers for politicians. Emanuel was the beneficiary of one of those parties after he left the board and ran in 2002 for a seat in Congress from the North Side of Chicago.

The board was throttled for its acquiescence to the accounting manipulation in a 2003 report by Armando Falcon Jr., head of a federal oversight agency for Freddie Mac. The scandal forced Freddie Mac to restate $5 billion in earnings and pay $585 million in fines and legal settlements. It also foreshadowed even harder times at the firm."

...In his investigation, Falcon concluded that the board of directors on which Emanuel sat was so pliant that Freddie Mac's managers easily were able to massage company ledgers. They manipulated bookkeeping to smooth out volatility, perpetuating Freddie Mac's industry reputation as "Steady Freddie," a reliable producer of earnings growth. Wall Street liked what it saw, Freddie Mac's stock value soared and top executives collected their bonuses.

Another focus of Freddie during Emanuel's day—and one that played to his skill set—was a stepped-up effort to combat congressional demands for more regulation."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/chi-rahm-emanuel-profit-26-mar26,0,5682373.story?page=1


Freddie Mac scandals began during Emanuel's watch
By Bob Secter and Andrew Zajac Tribune reporters

March 26, 2009


Before its portfolio of bad loans helped trigger the current housing crisis, mortgage giant Freddie Mac was the focus of a major accounting scandal that led to a management shake-up, huge fines and scalding condemnation of passive directors by a top federal regulator.

One of those allegedly asleep-at-the-switch board members was Chicago's Rahm Emanuel—now chief of staff to President Barack Obama—who made at least $320,000 for a 14-month stint at Freddie Mac that required little effort.

As gatekeeper to Obama, Emanuel now plays a critical role in addressing the nation's mortgage woes and fulfilling the administration's pledge to impose responsibility on the financial world.

Emanuel's Freddie Mac involvement has been a prominent point on his political résumé, and his healthy payday from the firm has been no secret either. What is less known, however, is how little he apparently did for his money and how he benefited from the kind of cozy ties between Washington and Wall Street that have fueled the nation's current economic

...The Obama administration rejected a Tribune request under the Freedom of Information Act to review Freddie Mac board minutes and correspondence during Emanuel's time as a director. The documents, obtained by Falcon for his investigation, were "commercial information" exempt from disclosure, according to a lawyer for the Federal Housing Finance Agency.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-rahm-emanuelmar26,0,1946702.story?page=2

[TomCADem]

50. Wait? Are You Seriously Trying To Defend Grover Norquist?

You might as well start comparing a profanity to genocide. Grover Norquist's whole purpose to defund left leaning grass roots groups. He specializes in sowing discord among the left. There is no comparison between Grover and Rahm Emanuel. Also, I did not even mention Rahm Emanuel in my post, which makes it odd that you would start ripping on him in order to take attention away from Grover Norquist. Like I said, if someone is defending Grover Norquist, they are either misinformed or not really liberal.

[blondeatlast]

49. Hamsher's idiotic and disgusting alliance has one positive aspect: it exposes Norquist

and his role in destroying everything this nation symbolizes. He cannot get enough exposure--and his LW degfenders can't possibly make themselves look more ridiculous. They just don't know the history--at least I hope that's what's wrong with their thinking.

[Hello_Kitty]

51. Nancy Pelosi did an ad with Newt Gingrich, who I think is every bit as bad as Norquist.

I still like and respect Nancy Pelosi.

[Are_grits_groceries]

52. An ad isn't a signed alliance

with someone and sent to the DOJ or whoever.

I repeat. Rahm isn't even in the same game as Norquist. Norquist has been at destruction of the government for years. BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY.... And IMHO Newt isn't on the same level either. Newt goes to him for a blessing, and not the other way around.

Norquist could care less who Rahm is. He only cares that Rahm provides a way in to possibly smash something again. Jane hates Rahm and all that he stands for. If Norquist can make a progressive leader look bad too, that's a big bonus. Jane is allying herself with someone who wants to take her and the left down too.

Norquist has shrunk the Rethug Party almost down to a base of anti-tax and anti-government purity. On to bigger targets. He has the backing, the connections, and the money to work his ways.

[Luminous Animal]

53. I like you and respect you Grits...

so I am a little annoyed that you have not responded to the fact that other progressives have aligned themselves on issues with which they agree with Norquist.

[Are_grits_groceries]

54. I'm not ignoring your posts.

I had to leave the fray last night and just rejoined the discussion. I will respond, and :hi:

[Luminous Animal]

55. Thanks!

And a :hi: back at ya!

[Are_grits_groceries]

57. I answered upthread to one of your earlier posts. nt

[nofurylike]

58. k&r. excellent OP and defense, thank you, Are_grits_groceries. nt

[POAS]

59. Let me add a name that I haven't seen mentioned here---

Lee Atwater.

It took a brain tumor and the fear of God to bring Atwater to repent his ways. His students, like Norquist, however didn't get the message that Atwater tried to convey when the end was near:

My illness helped me to see that what was missing in society is what was missing in me: a little heart, a lot of brotherhood. The '80s were about acquiring — acquiring wealth, power, prestige. I know. I acquired more wealth, power, and prestige than most. But you can acquire all you want and still feel empty. What power wouldn't I trade for a little more time with my family? What price wouldn't I pay for an evening with friends? It took a deadly illness to put me eye to eye with that truth, but it is a truth that the country, caught up in its ruthless ambitions and moral decay, can learn on my dime. I don't know who will lead us through the '90s, but they must be made to speak to this spiritual vacuum at the heart of American society, this tumor of the soul.

Emphasis added.

[Red Knight]

60. The only reason to oppose this

Is because you're still under the delusion that these are two seperate parties running things. If you are serious about taking control of the Dem party and changing Washington you have to change your thinking and strategy--and so does the right.

There will always be ideological differences and at the end of the day we will fight the right on the individual issues that matter. But if you continue with nothing but status quo bickering between left and right when you need each other to get big things done--things you can agree on--important things like cleaning up the coruption of Washington, than things will just stay the same while we remian distracted with the left right battle that those in power promote at the expense of getting some big things done.

Jane is smart enough to realize that.

It's a shame that not enough people are.

[Are_grits_groceries]

61. Excuse me?

Have you ever watched one of those movies where a group of people act in concert to rob a bank? They all have different reasons for robbing the bank and getting the money out. They will each use their share of the money in a different way.

Then after this merry bunch of unlikely allies starts to divvy up the loot, one of the group pulls a weapon and wipes out everybody else. He intended all along to take control of the whole thing. If someone had sussed out what he was doing, he had his minions waiting to ambush anybody else who made it out alive.

If people decide to join forces with muggs like Norquist, they better be ready for the battle and its aftermath. Norquist has been at this for a long, long time. You better believe he scouted the ground beforehand, planted his people in strategic positions, and had a plan to proceed after their aim was accomplished.

Unless the progressives and others are extremely prepared, they are going to get rolled in the end. I don't know if they have the forces, the people in place or the foresight to ultimately win this battle.

[Red Knight]

62. You nailed it

Have you ever watched one of those movies where a group of people act in concert to rob a bank? They all have different reasons for robbing the bank and getting the money out. They will each use their share of the money in a different way.

That sounds like Washington today.

The progressives are not a large bunch and by themselves can't hope to force any large change. Sometimes you roll the dice because you're already down big in this game.

I hate Norquist. I understand exactly what he is and what he's about and I can promise you Jane does too. I think you underestimate her. This is about one issue--one important issue concerning corruption and an individual who should be held accountable. There is no way that a few progressives will be able to force this issue. You need numbers. That's just the reality.

If the game of pitting left against right continues then they have us right where they want us. We will always be divided on some issues. But there are moments when we NEED them and they NEED us.

Look--no one is fooling anyone. Norquist would not be demanding investigations of Cheney. We know that. For him, it's because Rahm is a Democrat. So what? If we can USE Norquist to strip some of the corruption out of this party and in particular the White House--we should do it.

Or...we can continue doing what we're doing, hold our noses when OUR guys go bad, and still hug some fantasy that in the end they'll do what's best for us within this corrupt system.

We need to attack this system with the tools and people available, or accept it forever--and watch the decline grow steeper.

We all have to make that choice.

I've made mine. Norquist doesn't scare me at all--and certainly not more than what I see happening in our government.

[Are_grits_groceries]

63. Norquist doesn't scare you?

That is beyond naive, and that says it all. His connections and access to power and money scare me.

As I said, he has his aims planned much farther out than this one policy. If you decide to go into any venture with him, you better be prepared for the outcome. This is one piece of his puzzle aimed at very unprogressive ends when it is assembled. BTW you aren't using him at all.

If not, he is going to roll all of you, and you will wish you were just fighting Rahm and the Rahmettes.

Edit: He doesn't scare me into submission. He scares me enough to watch every move he makes, and to try to counter them. I may agree with him on a policy, but I will find another way to defeat it rather than ally myself with his minions. Unless I know I am going to have a hand in in the end result, I won't play his game. he has house money.

[Red Knight]

64. Nope

How does this one issue explode into the immolation of the progressive movement? He's not the all powerful Oz. His connections and funding mean little in terms of extending this "alliance" beyond one single issue.

Tell me how else you battle against this sort of corruption with a small band of progressives? How? What real world plan is there? Alone, we are like a fly--easily swatted.

You can see how the Dems feel about progressives. They hate us. We annoy them and are nothing more than a group to be fed happy talk during campaigns only to be ignored later.

They know how weak we are. They know how little we fight.

The powers that be don't fear us at all.

The left has no version of a strong and intimidating base--a noisy one that makes our side sit up and pay attention.

The right knows how to do that.

Do you fear that taking down Rahm brings down everything?

Is that the fear?

Because if so, then we can just keep this little charade of two parties going its merry way and in the end just continue to be grateful for small crumbs when we get them.

Or we step out and try something different--we take risks and fight.

Or we roll over and play dead.

I'm sick of being the silent--go along--progressive who watches the system morph election after election into this one giant corporate party.

And yes---that is the very same party that Norquist represents(I've read Frank's "The Wrecking Crew")but we kid ourselves if we fear losing something by holding Rahm accountable.

We continue to stand in quicksand or we reach--even for that shaky looking branch to pull ourselves out--to give ourselves a chance.

Because just standing here, ain't working.

[WeDidIt]

65. There is no "immolation of the progressive movement"

The only immolation going on is one idioit and her followers have set themselves on fire.

It won't have any effect on the progressive movement as a whole. All it means are a bunch of idiots drop out of the movement.

Good riddance to bad rubbish is what I say.

[Red Knight]

66. Okay Rahmite

Whatever you say.

[Are_grits_groceries]

67. I'm not talking about not bringing Rahm down.

I'm talking about how, who with and why.

Rahm is just a shiny object. There is no way on this Earth that he is running wild and doing what he wants. If what he is up to wasn't approved of in a lot of places, he would have been yanked down a long time ago.

Jane wants Rahm's head on a platter as if that would end all progressive ills.

Norquist wants to bring down the government by any means necessary and with anybody who he can use for the moment.

If Rahm goes away, you get Rahm II. It's the policy and not the person. Rahm wants you to aim at him. The more you aim at him, the more you forget what the real battle is all about.

Norquist knows. It's no skin off his nose. He is in a win/win.

[Red Knight]

68. But you have to go after it piece by piece

How else do you go after this corruption?

It is entrenched.

Sure, he'll be replaced--but the difference is that the next guy knows we're watching and aren't afraid to take action.

As it stands now--we seem to be bitching about the corrupt nature of the system while we stand around with our hands in our pockets waiting on....something.

If someone could define for me what that was--or a real plan for cleaning this up that used JUST progressives, I'd be all ears.

I have yet to hear it.

[Are_grits_groceries]

69. I'm not talking about just progressives.

When you have to reach waaaaaaaaaaaaay over to the right to align yourself with Norquist, you have stepped over a lot of more moderate people who might be willing to help.

She went for Decon 1 mode in one fell swoop.

[OneGrassRoot]

70. I don't know the details, as I've been away all day...

but I've read enough here at DU to see that Jane Hamsher has somehow aligned herself with Grover Norquist.

Talk about jumping the shark.

It was enough for me to unsubscribe from FDL. Reason given: Grover Norquist.

Ughhhh