Have you heard the "U.S. has the best health care in the world" meme lately?

[CTyankee]

What happened to it? It seems to have disappeared from the Republican lexicon. Before the health care reform debate I remember hearing it all the time as the major reason we don't "need" health care reform.

Methinks the focus groups are telling the pukes something that they don't want to hear...so now they have fine tuned their message. My guess is that they know they can't get away with that tired old chestnut any longer, it isn't working for them.

Maybe, just maybe the silver lining in all of this is that the public is smarter...

[Junkdrawer]

1. It's true....if you're wealthy.

And, in the end, isn't that what it's all about?

[CTyankee]

3. I'd love to know if I'm right about what transpired in those focus groups.

My son in law is a political consultant (Dem) who specializes in focus groups. Since he is a Dem he wouldn't necessarily know what goes on with the pubs but from what he says in general, the focus group is an excellent tool for getting the political pulse right...

[Junkdrawer]

7. My bet is that the minute the ink is dry on the HCR bill, Republicans....

will start advertising just how badly the public got screwed - emphasizing the personal mandates. Pure political gold.

[CTyankee]

10. It's my biggest fear. I can see the pubs driving their usual wedge between the classes,

saying to the barely middle class "the poor are getting health care and you are paying for it." Of course, they've been saying that all along, but this bill just reinforces their argument. That's sad, because many of the "barely middle class" are actually becoming poorer and some have probably already found themselves on public welfare of some sort...like food stamps.

[Ikonoklast]

35. How can they do that? Their 'plan' was "Buy Insurance".

The Republicans cannot say that and not piss off the health insurance industry, whose trough they also feed at.

[dkf]

9. Didn't seem to work for Michael Jackson.

[Tim01]

2. I've heard it from my British friend. Yesterday. nt

[Tim01]

4. Also heard it from my daughter who went to college in Canada. nt

[CTyankee]

5. Was she/he talking about our health care or the U.K.'s ? nt

[Tim01]

6. She hates the UKs health care system.

She is there for Christmas right now. Apparently freezing to death, she hates the cold.

She lives here now. She says our medical is way better than what she had in Britain.

[CTyankee]

13. I hear this now and then and I wonder...if the Brits hate their health care so much, why haven't

they instructed their representatives in Parliament to "reform" it and put in American style health care instead?

[RainDog]

14. No western European democracy wants the crap that passes for health care here

because they know their systems far outrank the U.S.

in studies of health care systems in the aughts, France and Canada had the best health systems in the world. Britain was studying France's health care system in order to improve their own. they NEVER looked at U.S.health care systems to try to improve their own.

this "oh, my daughter didn't like it" is bullshit.

there are numerous studies that indicate socialized medicine in the west has improved quality of life for middle and lower class people in those nations.

the perception that someone likes the health care their parents' insurance provides for them is a ridiculous attempt at spin.

[RainDog]

16. oh, social mobility is greater in western european democracies too.

there is MORE social mobility in western european nations than in the U.S.

those studies are available online as well. The U.S. not only has the worst health care system in any western democracy, we also (in part b/c of this bankruptcy by illness/insurance co.) have less opportunity to improve the quality of our own lives.

[CTyankee]

19. Read Tom Friedman on how Denmark is the greenest country on the earth.

High taxes on dirty energy have forced the Danes to become more inventive to remain and be competitive. And they are flourishing.

I can only dream that we can accomplish that as well as true health care reform...

[RainDog]

22. Germany set a goal to have 30% of its energy from alternative sources

and they are working toward that goal.

on the highways you see windmill farms that stretch as far as the eye can see. they're beautiful sights, to me.

America's oil company lobby has made sure the U.S. is behind in this capacity as well.

Lobbyists are the death of democracy, innovation and improvement.

[izquierdista]

33. I'd rather read toilet paper

It has less shit on it.

[CTyankee]

38. I used to agree with that sentiment. But Friedman has learned a thing or two.

Seriously, do try reading this column. I think you'll find it interesting, as it always is when someone from the dark side takes little steps toward the Light, as Friedman has been doing lately. Here's the link: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/23/opinion/23friedman.html?_r=1

I'd be interested in hearing about what you thought! :hi:

[izquierdista]

39. Well, he is on a learning experience

One that I took in high school. Whenever I read one of his columns in which he enunciates a new revelation, my reaction is always the same -- "you're just figuring this out now?"

[CTyankee]

40. Exactly! What the hell has been the matter with this guy?

He's travelled everywhere in the world and been exposed to different countries and cultures and slowly (but surely) "dawn breaks over marble head" as the saying goes.

The column gave some good info that can be used effectively against the pukes when they start in over the energy issue. Interesting that Denmark has "cap and trade." Also interesting, their 40% increase in GDP...sort puts a nail in the tire of the RW who would have us believe that we can't be green and competitive when the exact opposite is the truth...

[Tim01]

15. I'm guessing

it is because they have even less control over their representatives than we do. They are not a democracy, you know. The people over there are pretty pissed about a lot of things their govt is doing. But I don't think they have the same attitude toward their govt that we do.

In all honesty I have known one person from Britain who thought the system was awesome. But my current British friend very much prefers what she has here in our country. Of course, she can pay for it. She isn't poor, she has health insurance.

[CTyankee]

20. No democracy in the U.K.? You think Queen Elizabeth rules by divine right? nt

[Tim01]

23. No need to go off the deep end.

It looks you are just looking for a reason to get all emotional. You enjoy yourself. I'm done with you.

[CTyankee]

27. Oh, I thought it was a nice one liner! Your assertion is um, a bit strange.

Now, now. I'm not trying to slap your wrist or anything. But mebbe you'd like to expound your theory a little further...

[RainDog]

21. exactly. it's her selfish complaint because she is privileged

she should fit in quite well in the U.S.

[Tim01]

28. She isn't rich. She is lower middle class.

But I know quite a few people who would be in deep shit medically if they lost their job. My daughter just went through a $20,000 surgery for $500 because of her insurance. If she hadn't had insurance, I don't know what she would have done.
When she was in Canada she couldn't even get in to see a doctor. Just before she left she got notice she would get to see a doctor in another month. I don't know what the appointment was for, but it wouldn't cost her anything no matter how long it took her to get in.
So, no easy answers.

My friend from Britain thinks the system we are working toward is a good one. Where if you have no money you can still get medical care.
If you have money you can get as good medical care as you can afford. I know lots of people who have spilled sweat and blood their whole life to ensure they have choices for themselves and their families.

[RainDog]

30. maybe part of the problem is the COST OF HEALTH CARE not insurance

that's what is missing in all this talk.

yes, I know what it's like to lose your health care because I have.

I know many people in this nation whose lives are 10x worse here in the same situation than what they would face in a w. european system.

my ex-husband's father was ill when he was younger. if he had lived in the U.S. he would have lived in Cabrini Green. As it was, his family was able to own a modest home that they cared for assiduously.

my ex was able to go to the University because he studied hard and paid a sliding fee.

he came to the U.S. and stayed here to work. he trains people to improve their economies, he does research that applies to all disciplines now - esp. sciences. but he has never given up his citizenship in the w. european country he came from. he knows if his circumstances changed he would be fucked here. not so there.

[Tim01]

31. I couldn't agree more.

The cost of health insurance is going crazy. Crazy enough that it is no longer in reach for a lot of people. And it is the corporations and LAWYERS who are getting rich.

I am a big fan of getting the super wealthy to pay more of the share for the poor.
But I think what is going to happen is the corporations are going to turn a profit by making the middle class buy a product for the the poor.Kind of fucked up.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. No democracy in the UK?

They have three major political parties and several minor ones. Even Margaret Thatcher didn't dare get rid of the NHS, although she did her damnedest to weaken it.

[Hippo_Tron]

41. The UK is a strong democracy by every reasonable metric

If you don't think the UK is a democracy then you have no idea what a democracy is.

[vadawg]

17. ive got to agree with her on this, but thats becasuse i have health care here

if i didnt have any coverage then i would prefer the NHS, as it is id rather pay for what i have now than have to get the NHS level of care... I put it as having no coverage here is worse than the NHS, but the NHS is worse than the care you get in the US with coverage...

[Tim01]

34. I think you've nailed it. nt

[Hippo_Tron]

42. The UK spends much less per capita than the US does

France has the best of both worlds, universal coverage and people are pretty satisfied with that coverage. They spend a lot more per capita than the UK does but still less than we do here.

[GoCubsGo]

18. My British friend said that if he ever got sick, he'd go home for treatment.

He has lived in the US for 25 years, yet he'd still go back to England for medical care.

[RainDog]

25. a woman I know here went to France for cancer therapy

she could afford to do so.

most Americans cannot.

[RainDog]

8. their new mantra: the U.S. has the best health care in the third world! n/t

[rgbecker]

11. If any in that focus group just lost their jobs.....

They are scrambling for any kind of health care they can get by now. Forget best.

[CTyankee]

12. Yep, more people than ever before have been exposed to the awful truth.

But the pukes certainly had a good run with that ridiculous meme...

[lamp_shade]

24. Just yesterday... it might have been Kyl (not sure). n/t

[WeCanWorkItOut]

29. We've made some great government-funded discoveries. Problem is,

the price is far too high.
And doctors who had nothing to do with the discoveries
are making incomes that are much too high.
The hospitals cost far too much, as do the drugs. Etc.

Unfortunately, it's not just the Republicans who have
suffered from the "best health care system" delusion.
Too many Democrats also accepted it, for too long.
They didn't want to cause losses to their friends and relatives
making high profits in medicine. Or (especially in
the labor unions and religious groups) they were too ignorant
or too idealistic, to recognize the abuses and monopolies.
They only objected to the large number of uninsured people.

So it's not just the Republicans who've been
irresponsible, selfish or exploited. It's Democrats too.

[FlaGranny]

36. Doctors' incomes

are good, healthy incomes, but they in no way even remotely compare to the income of an insurance company exec. or a banking exec. Actually, most doctors make about the same (after expenses) as my 2 sons who are both in the software engineering/analyst profession. Gross income, of course is high, but they must pay their staff and buy their malpractice insurance, both of which take a huge chunk out of the gross. I believe that doctors are not the problem and are worth the money they earn. Hospitals would be much less of a problem if insurance companies weren't involved in their bottom lines. The insurance company does not care whether the hospital makes a profit. Most hospitals have extremely tight operating budgets. Also, they've got to carry a huge staff just to deal with insurance companies and collections. That is a huge amount of money to pay salaries which have no benefit to patient care. Most of these problems would disappear with single payer.

[Echo In Light]

32. Too much realistic, and therefore unfavorable data on display for the tried n true BS to stick

[meow2u3]

37. America has the best health care money can buy

American may have the best health care in the world, but they have one of the worst health care systems in the Western world.

This "free market" (read: insurance monopoly) health care system is the pits. If you can't afford it, tough. That's the prevailing attitude among insurance gangsters.

[Mudoria]

43. Have to agree with you there..

if you have a serious illness and have the money there is no better place to be treated. Minus the money and insurance you're more than likely screwed.

[pitohui]

44. statistics don't lie, and we're so far down on the life expectancy that it isn't even funny

i guess we live longer than russians, whose empire actually collapsed and whose country is going the same way

other than that, who do we out live? only people in the fourth world

people in tiny nations like costa rica and cuba out live americans

it's hard to paint pretty lipstick on THAT pig

i never hear anyone make the claim that we have good or even decent health care, all i hear is bitching, and no wonder -- you're screwed either way, if you have great insurance, you get all these unnecessary procedures and you're a porcupine full of needles and kept alive to be tortured on machines, if you have shit/no insurance, you can just do w.out care and you can pick one, eating or buying pills, me, my vote is eating