"Don't Snitch"

[Archae]

I'm watching the "60 Minutes" I taped earlier, and there is a disturbing segment coming up, where rappers are telling blacks *NOT* to go to the police for help, even if a serial killer lives next door. :wtf:

Why are they doing this?
Is part of "hip-hop" culture self-destructive stupidity?

[live love laugh]

1. That makes no sense whatsoever, I don't believe it. n/t

[Archae]

2. You can see it and read it here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/19/60minutes/main2704565.shtml

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

6. The link to a story about those who live in low income neighborhoods feeling the brunt of a

police state?

Not the most shocking of stories.

Your OP subject is a classic. MKJ

[question everything]

67. and here

http://60minutes.yahoo.com/segment/60/stop_snitching

[TomInTib]

8. Oh, it is true, all right. Been going on for a while. nt

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

3. LOL.

:rofl:

who needs context, anyway?

MKJ

[givemebackmycountry]

4. Oh, It's true alright and worse than you think...

The message being sent in the black community is "don't talk to the police about nothing".
Maybe if the police had been a more positive presence in the black community since like forever, instead of fuckin' with them at every opportunity, things would be different.

I'm from NYC, and I come from a family of NYC cops and I've sat around he dinner table and listened to them talk.

It ain't pretty.

[AliceBlitzstein]

81. this started in Baltimore, Maryland

Just a few years ago, a grandmother living in a gang territory in a Baltimore neighborhood witnessed a shooting, and told the cops. The drug dealers burned down her house with her grandchildren inside. Then, the drug dealers started to wear "stop snitching" t-shirts to intimidate others. Then the gangsta rappers turned it into a fad.

It's a terrorist threat is what it is. Shame on any thugs who think this is "cool".

[porphyrian]

5. Laws and law enforcement are hardly black and white.

That you've referred to this as stupid tells me you are probably not Black, poor and from a ghetto. Police are not always the good guys and breaking laws does not automatically make you bad. Almost everything is gray area, black and white (good and evil, right and wrong, whatever) are the rare extremes. Most of all, though, music is art, not instruction. Follow rappers' instructions verbatim at your own risk (which most listeners actually know).

[cwydro]

7. this has been in the news for some time.

I heard about it last year. Very very disturbing. I've seen the t-shirts.

[Greyhound]

9. The result of the combative stance that virtually every police dept. in the country takes.

Conflict and escalation always result in the same outcome, that being the general population supporting the familiar gang, whether it is black, Irish, Italian, or Jewish, over the enforcers of their oppressors.

Nothing new, just the endless repetition of history.

[Swamp Rat]

10. If a serial killer starts killing rappers I bet they'd change their tune.

:eyes:

[Archae]

11. Rappers HAVE been killed.

And no one is cooperating with police to solve the Tupac Shakur murder.

It's plainly obvious, these are thugs, celebrating being a thug, and don't want anyone "messing with their business."
(Actual quote by a rapper who calls 50 cent a "snitch.")

[Swamp Rat]

16. I know about Tupac Shakur - I said "serial killer" because you mentioned it in the OP.

"serial killer" - In other words, some monsterous person that goes around cutting off all the heads of rappers, not rival gang shootings.

I bet they would change their 'rap'.

[Double T]

12. 'No Snitchin'' provides street credibility aka street cred for MANY........

black youths, teenagers and young adults from all social, religious and financial walks of life. Basically, mind your own business and keep your mouth shut about EVERYTHING you see or experience, regardless of whether it is legal or not. Chamillionaire has a song and lyrics about 'NO Snitchin''. Song and lyrics provided at links BELOW:

http://play.rhapsody.com/chamillionaire/thesoundofrevenge/nosnitchinwithbunb?didAutoplayBounce=true



http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/chamillionaire/nosnitchin.html

[panader0]

13. I don't think that the police are too popular in the ghetto.

Remember "Hurricane" by Dylan? "If you're black you better stay off the street, you'll only draw the heat" (Patterson, N.J.)

[Threedifferentones]

14. Stupidity?

What reason would people who have been consistently oppressed for decades have to trust the police?

[Zhade]

70. SSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHH! The cops are perfect and racism is dead!

:eyes:

[riverdeep]

15. Saw this piece

Yeah there is a reason it all occurred, it came about. Those reasons are basically harrassment by police and our insane drug laws that turn the inner city into a war zone. Black people or rappers didn't create this 'original sin'.

But while the history of it does need to be acknowledged, but the only real solution is to have the black community end this practice. Withholding evidence of a crime is itself a crime.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

18. You've listed the ingredients of institutional racism.

Yet disagree with the premise. :shrug: MKJ

[riverdeep]

21. What I'm saying is I can understand how the practice

originated, but that it actually does no benefit to the people doing it. The rappers aren't on your side. The drug dealers aren't on your side. They've been made folk heroes by people who got played.

[Djinn]

17. I'm a middle class white girl

and I have much the same views.

The LAST people I'd turn to if I was in trouble is the cops - corrupt and incompetent fuckers, every last one of them

[Raskolnik]

19. I sincerely hope I'm never proven right about this...

...but I would bet just about any amount of money that if you were in a situation in which your life was threatened and were in need of help, you would call 911 and hope like hell one of those "corrupt and incompetent fuckers" showed up and put him/herself at risk to help you.

[Djinn]

40. good example

of why it's never a good idea to assume you'd know the reactions of people you've never met.

Recently someone else called the police on my behalf - they just confirmed my prejudices. They did NOTHING. Had I had the opportunity I would have gotten help from non official parties and the person who committed an offence against me would now have been punished.

Instead the cops got involved (meaning I no longer had the unofficial option) didn't even bother to take a statement and the person got off scott free.

No, I would never call the cops - they have never given me any reason to trust them and have given me plenty of reason to hate them.

[Raskolnik]

42. Sure you wouldn't

If someone was breaking into your house, if you were in a car accident, if someone came into your office waving a gun around, if you saw someone being hurt by someone else, if any number of other things happened, I'm sure you would never call the police.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raskolnik]

46. I'm not interested in your personal life

If you think your own experience justifies a blanket condemnation of all police everywhere, then I would imagine our conversation isn't headed for great success.

[Djinn]

48. The blanket condemnation

of ALL POLICE EVERYWHERE is based on INSTITUTIONAL ANALYSES, my personal feelings regrding individual cops are based on experiences.

If you think the coppers have any purpose other than protecting the interests of the wealthy then you're absolutely right - our conversation wont get far because you're starting from an erroneous and naive assumption.

The police are not and never have been defenders of the working class

[Raskolnik]

49. Well, I didn't agree with you until I saw the ALL CAPS.

That sealed the deal.


And c'mon--changing "Fuckstick" to "Brain donor"? That's just a lack of nerve.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raskolnik]

55. That's the spirit!

Could you fill me in on what you consider to be my "pet theories"?

So far, the only radical position I've taken in our little discussion is that not all police everywhere are corrupt incompetents bent on brutalizing the working class. (Shocking, I know.)

[Bronyraurus]

65. This is

one of the weirdest posts I've ever read.

[Raskolnik]

47. Its generally poor form to edit a post *after* someone has responded. n/t

[Djinn]

51. So I decided

fuckstick was a bit harsh even though you'd just asked something that had already been answered - if you want me to change it back I'm quite happy too

[mrcheerful]

68. When I was 19 The car I was driving blew a drive shaft and I had to leave it parked where it stopped

The next day, I had taken the drive shaft with me and replaced the U-joints, I noticed the drivers said door lock had been popped and the hood of my car wasn't shut all the way. Well my stereo was missing and the crooks had smashed my Distributer cap. So my dad insisted I call the cops about it. The cops showed up, said there wasn't anything they could do then wrote me a bunch of fix it tickets plus a ticket for parking the car to far off the road. So much for police help. And I'm not getting into what cops were like when I was riding non japanese motorcycles and getting pulled over because I was seen up at the local "out law" motor cycle club. Or how I got a reckless driving ticket walking out of my home with a helmet on, because a cop saw a cycle turn and he went looking for the cycle, I had mine parked on the side walk in front of my home, he saw mine and turned around just as I was walking out my door. Then the prick tried to say the cycle was stolen because the VIN numbers weren't on the down tube. But as anyone who knows vintage cycles, VIN numbers on cycles weren't on the down tube as a mandatory thing until 1970 and this was a 1967 BSA.

[Truthiness Inspector]

24. Prejudice is ugly

and based on ignorance. I'm sorry you display these qualities.

[Djinn]

41. Only ignorance shown here is YOURS

You have zero knowledge of my experience with the police. I have EVERY reason to dislike the police.

I am sorry you're so arrogant you think you can judge whether someone's actions are valid based on ZERO information about their life and experiences.

With any luck you will never be sexually assaulted by a cop, you will never watch them beat a friend nearly to death, you will never go to the funeral of someone shot by police because they had a mental illness or were the wrong colour, although if one day you do, perhaps you might be able to see where I'm coming from

[Truthiness Inspector]

63. Wrong-o

You said: "corrupt and incompetent fuckers, every last one of them"

Every last one of them. You do not know all cops, instead you indict all cops based on your "experiences" however one-sided no less.

[11 Bravo]

77. Are you sure that brush you wield so carelessly is broad enough?

We have DUers who are cops, and they don't strike me as "corrupt and incompetent".

[RedCappedBandit]

20. First of all

Fuck the police.

Secondly, I don't think "stop snitching" has anything to do with not calling the cops when you see somebody being murdered. Context ftw.

[Raskolnik]

27. Why "fuck the police"?

Are you just trying to be pithy?

[RedCappedBandit]

28. No.

i personally have a general disdain for police, and people who think they are in a position of power above other people and exploit that power. I acknowledge the fact that not all police are this way, but in my experience too many of them are. police officers tend to forget the fact that they are actually public servants. nothing personal.

[Raskolnik]

31. So if you were in a situation in which you were in danger

would your general disdain for police carry the day, or would you call the police and hope that an officer is willing to put him or herself at risk in order to help you?

Let's be clear--I understand very well that horrific abuses of power by law enforcement take place far too often and cause serious damage to our society. Statements like "fuck the police", however are simple-minded, ugly, and rather cliched sentiments that don't even begin to recognize the complexity of the situation.

[RedCappedBandit]

33. I am in agreement with you

the situation is not so black and white. However, whatever the reasons may be, I have little faith in humanity.

Obviously, if I were in danger, I would use any means possible to save myself. If this involved calling the police, I wouldn't hesitate. However, I wouldn't really expect many police officers to actually put themselves in danger to help me.

However, i wont agree with you that such statements are just simple minded and ugly. There have been countless occurances which have led to such a sentiment, it is not without warrant.

Police = Human. I don't trust most humans, therefore I don't trust most police. Nothing more to it than that, really. They are nothing special.

[Raskolnik]

37. Even if they are nothing special as human beings

we nevertheless ask very, very special things from them. I don't think you can deny that they are asked to perform an extremely difficult job (often for relatively little money) that we absolutely could not function as a society without. When one of them fails in that job, it has terrible consequences. But that doesn't change the fact that every day there are literally thousands of examples of those people performing their duties well, to the great benefit of the rest of us who are allowed to go about our business in greater safety.

[RedCappedBandit]

60. True, and yet

the majority of these cases where they are performing their duties well, they're not doing the job which is extremely difficult. I dunno, I just do not have the respect for the institute that others seem to. I wont deny that we need them as a whole, but i honestly cannot stand them as individuals. (Not saying my stance is right or wrong, its just the way I view things, for whatever reasons)

[Zhade]

71. I know this is hard to believe, but we actually were a society before the police.

Before The Police, even!

[Raskolnik]

73. What industrial society has every functioned w/out a police force of some kind?

That's not meant as a snark--I'm honestly asking. Are you aware of any industrialized society that didn't/doesn't rely on some enforcement mechanism for its laws?

[Greyhound]

74. The fact that the ruling class has always employed thugs to enforce it's

rule does not translate to the organization being necessary to the functioning of society.

During the expansion into the west most communities had no official law enforcement and what there was generally went fishing while the community dealt with the occasional miscreant.

The shoot-out between the sheriffs and the outlaws rarely happened, the most infamous example being the shoot-out at the OK corral and in that case both sides were vicious thugs fighting over which faction was going to run the town. Most often some citizens took it upon themselves to shoot the bastard in the back while he was drunk. Of course there were problems with this situation as many communities were notoriously unwelcoming to outsiders, especially those that looked different.

The best examples of effective policing were always members of the community that lived in and worked for the benefit of that community. The officers had wide discretion in what to enforce and what methods were used.

Todays police forces have been turned into military forces only concerned with maintaining the status quo. Traffic stop in Bel Air justifies two squad cars and the shift supervisor if the driver is black. Got a riot in the ghetto? Call us when it's over so we can start the paper work.

And no, when trouble finds me, I deal with it, I've learned through hard experience that calling the cops just makes more trouble.

[Raskolnik]

75. A hypothetical to test your rugged individualism.

Let's say you're walking down the street, half a block behind a ten year old kid. You see a guy run up to the kid, grab her, throw her in a car, and speed away. Now, let's assume you were close enough to see the adult's face and see the license plate, but not close enough to intervene.

Would you still decline to involve the authorities?

[Greyhound]

78. Of course, but that doesn't have anything to do with the topic, or the question you asked.

I would make the information I had available, but I would ensure it was done anonymously. As I said earlier, I've learned that involvement with the police is just asking for trouble.

If the police want the citizens to trust them, they have to prove themselves trustworthy, something that hasn't been done for a long, long time, in fact it is just the opposite. But I don't believe that most departments are really interested in earning trust, being feared is much easier.

In general the police are no longer interested in find the guilty party, but rather they pick the most vulnerable person at hand and build a case to fit. Our prisons have many innocent people in them, because they were in the wrong place and couldn't afford a good attorney, and every one of them was put there because a cop decided to put them there.

Given your scenario, if I were to make a report myself, I suspect that I would be the first investigated.

[TygrBright]

22. Another casualty of the "war on drugs" AKA, the war on poor people.

I talk to friends in the black community about this and as far as I can tell there is a SHARP divide. If you spent your childhood in a black community BEFORE that divide, you don't get the whole "all police as enemies" thing. If you spent your childhood in a black community AFTER that divide, there is no question about it.

I rather expected the dividing line to be the 1960s civil rights-era abuses when southern law officers were co-opted into brutalizing and terrorizing blacks working for voting rights, etc., and I was surprised to find out that I was wrong about that. The dividing line is actually in the mid- to late-1970s, when the "War on Drugs" shifted into high gear.

The "War on Drugs" was never just about drugs. It was about:

Splitting up concentrations of black people who formed close, effective communities that could successfully stand up against the efforts of urban "renewers" to destroy their homes and price them out of the housing market;

Having easy scapegoats at hand to inflate arrest records, make public relations coups, lobby for greater funding for urban police departments (and their unions,) and enable police corruption through kickbacks, extortion, and terror;

Getting police departments equipped with the latest, coolest, most expensive equipment and toys to deal with the escalating violence and danger-- and turning police forces from community services into paramilitary forces;

Having a convenient problem to blame every other problem on-- everything from robbery to vandalism can be traced back to gangs, which exist solely to protect drug profits. If the car burglary rate in a particular area goes up, it's never because of poor policing practice or other factors, it's because "more drug dealers are moving in, we need more money for the narcotics squad."

The War on Drugs completely altered law-enforcement strategy and tactical doctrine. SWAT teams, paramilitary units, etc. became part of the standard array for all large cities and most medium cities to "fight the War on Drugs." Police training mutated as the "war" escalated and policing became riskier and unions agitated to enable their members to use deadly force more freely and in more situations. Community relations and the civil rights of suspects and the OTHER law enforcement needs of "drug-infested" communities all took a back seat to treating every single dark face as a potential cop-shooter, a potential drug-runner, a potential perp.

And as all of that happened and sank into the daily reality of life in poor urban black neighborhoods, there was no percentage in cooperating with the police. The police, whether they intended to or not (and many didn't, really) made themselves into the enemy because of what our legislators and citizens demanded of them. We put the "War on Drugs" at the top of the law enforcement priorities list and have no one to blame but ourselves when the inevitable happened.

It "stop snitchin'" a good thing? Hell no, it's flat-out stupidity. It's helping to escalate the problem. It's responsible for murderers and rapists and all kinds of predators staying on the street to continue preying on the very people who are protecting them.

But it's not going to change until we demand our law enforcement system to change AND GIVE IT THE RESOURCES TO DO SO. It's not going to change, like so many other awful aspects of our current social system, until we make up our minds that it's worth it to PAY THE TAXES to change it.

Any bets on when THAT will happen?

pessimistically,
Bright

[blondeatlast]

82. I'd like to nominate your post for the home page, alas, I can't.

You make a great point about the "war" on drugs being the crossed line.

If we could redirect the resources used in the "war" on drugs into neighborhoods, I think things would change without a marked increase in taxes.

I've never even smoked a joint, never used anything "illegal" whatsoever, but I see the reactive fight as a tremendous waste. Legalize the milder ones, tax them like we do cigarettes, and channel the resources back into the cities.

Everyone wins--even the cops.

[WinkyDink]

23. "Charlie doesn't like a snitch." ~~~Susan Denise Atkins, 1969.

[riverdeep]

25. I'm seeing a lot of over the top hostility toward the cops

like they were the KGB or something. Absolutely, cops can be corrupt, entire departments can be corrupt. Individual cops can be nightmares. But to categorize the lot of them as useless and worse, doesn't strike me as anything but prejudiced.

These people enforce the laws, not create them. They didn't create the ludicrous three strike laws, or the drug laws. And I can only imagine going into a call for a neighborhood where no one is going to help, and I may get shot at by just someone random, isn't going to make me want to go there to often-that's also just human nature.

[RedCappedBandit]

34. They choose to enforce laws.

That is the important part.


As for a call into a dangerous neighborhood, police are not going to enter dangerous situations without help. BTW - The neighborhood is dangerous for a police officer to enter for a reason.

[riverdeep]

61. As a clarification

When I say 'help', I don't mean back-up, I mean help as in the way the OP was referencing it as-people living in the neighborhood giving no cooperation in the solving of a crime.

[MrSlayer]

26. The rules that apply in grade school and prison shouldn't apply in society at large.

Everyone is taught early on that you don't rat on your classmates when they throw spitballs or pull a fire alarm and everyone knows a prison snitch is dead meat but these rules should not apply in civilized society. Everyone should rat out a murderer, armed robber, rapist or whatever, particularly if he lives next door to you. This "no snitch" mentality makes no sense at all and only protects criminals who will continue to do these things. It's ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

[AlCzervik]

29. "Don't snitch" merchandise has been around for awhile here and it's nothing new.

the media is just making it new again.

[BlooInBloo]

30. Yah - boy are black folks stupid, huh?

That's SURELY the only explanation.

It couldn't POSSIBLY be that black folks have SOOOO little faith in the police. With cause.

Nope - the only possible explanation is that they're stupid.

[Raskolnik]

32. I don't think you have to maintain that black folks are stupid to believe

those profiting from a blanket refusal to cooperate with law enforcement are not terribly noble.

[BlooInBloo]

35. "Is part of "hip-hop" culture self-destructive stupidity?"

Of course, the OP learned the "Imus lesson", but the meaning is perfectly clear.

Your comment is better directed to the OP, than to me.

[Raskolnik]

38. No, I meant to direct it to you.

I agree that the "stop snitching" movement is an incredibly self-destructive trend. It harms ordinary working class people that benefit not at all from decreased police protection, and only strengthens organized crime that continues to eat away at the community. People who espouse that (not to mention people who profit from espousing it) are harming the community they pretend to care about.

I don't care that the OP might have used less than nuanced language in his post. I think the more interesting discussion is about the actual topic of the thread, not the OP.

[Djinn]

43. You think working class communities

are protected by cops???

wow things must be REALLY different in the states.

[Raskolnik]

45. Who do you think benefits when murders, rapes, and robberies are not prosecuted?

Sure as hell not working class families.

[Djinn]

50. Oh man you're making me laugh

How often do you think crimes against working class people make it to a conviction? Fuck there are some neighbourhoods that the cops wont even go into so good luck getting them to get enough evidence to get to prosecution let alone conviction.

For every crime committed against working people that resulted in a prosecution there are 5 crimes committed against them BY the police.

There is a very good reason why people in some communities will never trust the police. It's not just down to the actions of one of two corrupt police (or even an entire dept) but the entire INSTITUTION.

If it were a case of a few bad apples then one could attain some form of justice when complaining about the abuse or crimes of cops - what actually happens though is that all the "good" cops fall in and protect the ones they KNOW are scumbags.

The INSTITUTION of the police force discriminates against the working class and regularly brutalises them.

This is not a case of people's "prejudices" being formed by a few dodgy cops - it's the system that supports and protects those dodgy cops that is the problem - and it's why your constant resort to "some policemen aren't bent" is irrelevant.

[Raskolnik]

53. Two questions.

For every crime committed against working people that resulted in a prosecution there are 5 crimes committed against them BY the police.

That seems like the kind of thing that should probably be backed up by some sort of citation. Unless, of course, you're just pulling it out of your ass--in which case, carry on.

The INSTITUTION of the police force discriminates against the working class and regularly brutalises them.

So if your problem is actually ALL POLICE EVERYWHERE based on INSTITUTIONAL ANALYSES, I'd be quite interested in your proposed fix. Would it be based on doing away withe the INSTITUTION of the police force altogether?

[riverdeep]

54. Wouldn't cops qualify as working class?

"A typical Police Patrol Officer working in the United States earns a median base salary of $46,599, according to our analysis of data reported by corporate HR departments. Half of the people in this job earn between $38,822 and $54,978."

http://secure.salary.com/jobvaluationreport/docs/jobvaluationreport/jobsellhtmls/Police-Patrol-Officer-salary-job-description.html

My guess is your response would be something like they are soldiers of the bougousie class.

[Madspirit]

58. Traditionally that's just a fact

The police protect the moneyed class.
Lee

[Raskolnik]

62. I would rephrase slightly.

Traditionally the police are used to protect the moneyed class.

That is a meaningful distinction, and one that is accurate in my opinion.

[Madspirit]

59. Thank-you

I agree!
Lee

[RedCappedBandit]

36. Stop Snitching

does not entail a blanket refusal to cooperate with law enforcement for most people. This entire tread is absurd.

Ask your average joe what he thinks is meant by "stop snitching"
I gaurantee you he is not going to say anything about protecting the privacy of a person whom he saw raping / killing / robbing another human being.

[Raskolnik]

39. With all due respect, I'm not sure you understand what we're talking about

The particular sub-genre of "stop snitching" culture *is* about refusing to cooperate with police--even in rapes, robberies, and murder. We're not talking about the average joe, we're talking about a relatively recent & focused effort in Baltimore that is aimed at intimidating anyone who would otherwise be a witness in a criminal prosecution.

[-..__...]

56. Yep.

Around here the thugs would openly wear "stop snitching" t-shrits into a courtroom as a form of witness intimidation. I don't know how many (or if), judges finally smacked the turds upside the head and put a stop to it.

[RedCappedBandit]

57. I guess,,

.. that I thought people were overreacting. I wasn't aware the situation was as out of hand as is being implied.

[HML]

64. Hip-Hop Culture?

Perhaps “Hip Hop” is a subculture or a counterculture, but it is hardly a culture, IMO.

HML

[Bronyraurus]

66. I don't think that

there's any part of hip-hop culture that's NOT self-destructive stupidity.

And I'm a big fan of NWA.

[Zhade]

72. You've obviously never heard of alternative hip hop.

Quite uplifting.

I'm sorry, how is Kanye West self-destructive again?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

76. Then you haven't listened enough.

[Zhade]

69. Uh, if I were black in this country I'd think twice about calling the cops, too.

NT!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

79. Oh, heavens to Betsy!

Anti-social messages in popular youth oriented music!!!!

What's next? Messages about how teenagers should drive their modified, potentially illegal, hot-rods at unsafe speeds? Messages about necking and heavy petting?

Oh, what is our world coming too?

[Blue_Tires]

80. they have been around for awhile

and not just rappers, local criminals/mid level crime bosses have been making amateur DVDs and distributing them around the neighborhood...A couple of years ago, Denver Nuggets star Carmelo Anthony appeared in one with a well-known (federally wanted) drug dealer in his hometown of Baltimore...Anthony claimed he was appearing as a favor to a friend and didn't know what he was doing (yeah right)...of couse, the outrage from the league and fans lasted about 20 seconds...