OMG Brownstein using the old "elitist" meme on Dean and supporters.

[madfloridian]

Also did you know that Joe Biden penned an op ed in the NYT today about Howard Dean's remarks? That is amazing. Do they realize that they are sending out the big guns in the party because a private citizen like Dean said the plan was not very good? They are as much as admitting his influence.

Here's Biden's op ed. At least he was courteous and did not call Dean irrational or irrelevant.

Why the Senate Should Vote Yes on Health Care

Those in our own party who would scuttle this bill because of what it doesn’t do seem not to appreciate the magnitude of what it has the potential to accomplish. Howard Dean was head of the Democratic Party. I respect his leadership on health care, and I understand his criticism of the bill. But it is worth noting that on some of the key health reform issues — like ensuring that Americans have access to stable, affordable coverage, and doing away with abusive practices by insurance companies — the reforms in the Senate bill would do even more than Vermont, the state he governed, has done. And they would do it for the entire country. What’s more, this bill would expand both choice and competition in an insurance market that, for many Americans, has offered far too little of either.

Here is Brownstein's take on why Dean is speaking out. On why those of us who support Dean's position are speaking out. Basically he is saying it is because we are not poor, because we have advantages.

That effing elite talking point was tried in 2003 and 2004 right after the "crazy" talking point failed to work. They kept thinking he would go away and stay away if they called him enough names.

This is just one paragraph from the The Atlantic Wire's take on Brownstein's article.

Ron Brownstein on Dean's Class Divide

Dean's class divide? How ridiculous. He targets not only Dean supporters but ones he calls "web progressives".

Ronald Brownstein, the Atlantic's own political director, stepped back from the explosion of liberal resentment this week to explain why Howard Dean and his liberal ilk can afford to toss out the Senate health care bill: it comes down to class. In his typically statistics-heavy, logically rigorous style, Brownstein explained that Web progressives are disproportionately college educated, and therefore likelier than most Americans to have health care.

And here are his words of wisdom about Dean and those who agree with him.

Maybe one reason former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean and so much of the digital Left can so casually dismiss the Senate health care reform bill is that they operate in an environment where so few people need to worry about access to insurance ... Some individuals in these overlapping political networks undoubtedly face challenges with access to health care, but as a group college-educated whites are much less likely than any other segment of the population to lack health insurance ... That community's most liberal segments because they tend to see politics less as a means of tangibly improving their own lives than as an opportunity to make a statement about the kind of society they want America to be. That is not a perspective that encourages compromise or pragmatism. It may be easier for Dean, and the activists cheering him on, to view the Senate bill as an affront to their values precisely because so few of their interests are directly at stake in the fierce fight over this imperfect but landmark legislation.

The "digital left"? Who coined that phrase? How stupid.

We operate in an environment where so few need health care? Does he think we are stupid?

We view politics as the kind of society we want America to be?

Now that is correct, you betcha. I view politics as an avenue to bring the change we need.

You are an arrogant man, Ron Brownstein.

[jonnyblitz]

1. here we go with the anti-intellectualism again.

we should only listen to regular folk who live on pig farms and cut brush because educated people are EVIL. :crazy:

[madfloridian]

3. And folks who wear teabags hanging from their hats.

And who believe the earth is only 6000 years old.

[snagglepuss]

6. Eggactly. nt

[leftstreet]

2. It's about time they started to fear their own base

The Republicans made the mistake of catering to the Religious Right and ignoring their true fiscally conservative base. Look where that got them - a dead party.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bertman]

5. The DLC and President Obama are fucking up by the numbers on this one. I have just

jumped ship and will be working to primary Prez O in '12. I did NOT vote for the Corporatist agenda.

Howard Dean and the Progressive wing of the party are the only ones talking sense right now. The rest are so caught up in "passing something" that they have lost their bearings.

Rec.

[defendandprotect]

56. More and more, folks + DU are figuring out what's really going on . . .

the administration is hoping the public will forget . . . again!!

Meanwhile, they're acting like it isn't happening -- and like this legislation

hasn't been totally busted!!!

[laughingliberal]

7. Sweet tap dancing Jesus! Those who oppose another huge transfer of the resources of the working

and middle class to the wealthy corporations are the elite. And Joe Biden? I love Joe Biden but stable? affordable? doing away with abusive practices of the insurance industry? Joe, come on, we can read, after all. And Brownstein? Yeah, we are disproportionately college educated which means we can add the damned thing up and see it doesn't work.

[Ildem09]

8. This goes back to what i've been talking about all day

The Progressive base has splintered into two factions. and it threatens to send a schism down the heart of the party

Camp A) The upper-middle class folk that have a Masters or above, Gay folks, the stereotypical Volvo driving latte sipping deaniac (My Self a gay guy getting a Phd.)

Camp B) working class and folks with a bachelors degree or less education and those that find themselves either in or identifying with the lower socio-economic statuses, the Latino and AA communities typically are here

Labor Union folk float between these two camps depending on the issue or their mood

there in lies the problem. it seems from observation that group A is more interest in abstract policy absolutes and the conceptual realization of good governance whereas group B Identifies with a politician on a more visceral level

whilst we are both trying to get to the same place our approaches are radically different and a whole bunch of stuff gets lost in translation. thusly resulting in the quasi-civil war here

*again not flame material just the observations of a political scientist

[madfloridian]

15. Just keep applying that political science to real human beings

And you will find some real problems down the road.

Stop the analyzing of those of us who speak out. Don't assume what jobs and positions people hold.

We should be working together instead of being put down by our own party.

[Ildem09]

17. Im going to analyze things by nature

I'm not just speaking about people here on DU I'm speaking about the country writ large the University of Michigan has this huge data set that correlates most all the demographic jibberish I've been talking about all day. go get your self a copy of SPSS it's a statistical analysis program and the Umich dataset is in there and run the variables yourself.

I'm not interested in what motivates people only how they act and what I can measure.

[madfloridian]

19. Well, you are right about the splintering.

I guess they thought that since we have taken it for years we would do it again. They send people out to do all these talking points that make no sense.

We have hardly heard a common sense word since the health care debate started.

Hubby and I have been large donors to the party and to DFA. We are rethinking a lot. I donated to DFA yesterday to help them keep up the fight for real health care reform.

But we just say no to the rest. Locally our Democrats are so much like the Republicans that candidates running can switch around and no one sees the difference.

There are changes coming.

[Ildem09]

24. Tell me about it

My boyfriend is kinda a cheerleader its annoying. but The main problem with the left is that it is a far more single issue driven ideology than the right. we are basically a conglomeration of special interests that agree on something some of the time. whereas the right is lucky in that they have lockstep control and really only 3 factions (big business, Christian Taliban, and libertarians). our coalitions are always on the brink of collapse because they are way to broad. as a gay guy I can honestly say I have no insight or idea what goes on in the AA community or the latino community. i know they generally don't support me so i tend to care less about their issues in a practical sense in abstract i agree with the whole heartedly. I also do not expect to get blue collar workers from pittsburgh or Chicago to help me out at a gay pride event lol.

what i'm basically trying to say is that were just a little more dysfunctional than we have been. we need obama to transcend our groups not pit them against each other!

[madfloridian]

27. I think overall most Democratics support the same things...

It's the leaders who screwed us and sold out to the corporate world.

Most Democrats, in fact most people I know believe in gay rights, women's rights, a government's role in our health care, looking out for each other.

It is the far right 1/4 and the leaders in both parties that sold us out.

[Ildem09]

29. I agree

Look at how everyone has been pitted against each other just for having differing views. the cheerleaders ok ardent supporters seems like the cannot distinguish between the man and the policies I like obama I do not like his policies. and Rahm may have succeeded in crippling the progressive base for exacerbating tensions between the groups

My discussions may seem cold and atypical. but thats cause I'm a nerd lol. I look at numbers and trends and not real people

[defendandprotect]

57. The administration is still playing it as if they can ignore that . . .

More than 70% of the public want govenrment run health care -- public option --

single payer -- Medicare for all -- that's not a "splintering" -- it's a coming

together.

It is only to the advantage of the right wing/corporates to try to pretend it's not happening!

At this point, only 20% of voters identify themselves as Republicans!

[JoeyT]

68. Yep.

"right is lucky in that they have lockstep control and really only 3 factions (big business, Christian Taliban, and libertarians)"
Also known as fascists, theocrats, and "the people that didn't grow out of the 'Woo! Anarchy!' phase when they turned 16". ;)

[midnight]

53. Right on.

[Jamastiene]

21. So, which way do you split me?

Vertically or horizontally? I'm both gay and poor. How can I possibly be in both Camp A and Camp B?

[Ildem09]

25. I'm speaking in nation wide abstracts

Im gay and poor too.

But generally our group ranks among the highest in terms of per capita income.

[Jamastiene]

32. We fucked up somewhere, didn't we?

:pals:

[Ildem09]

34. your telling me

I always say im too fabulous to be poor. plus all the cute clothes are always friggin super expensive :( SOMEDAY lol

[Le Taz Hot]

58. I can't believe how utterly off-base your analysis is.

And racist and classist at that. Good goddess. Let's start with a simple, basic lesson here. The Progressive base is NOT, repeat. NOT split. We are for single-payer insurance WITHOUT misogynist anti-choice Amendment. End of discussion. The schism is between the Progressive base and the blind partisans of the Democratic Party. The Progressives are in the process of splitting from the Democratic Party and that split will be in evidence in 2010 when they lose seats in both the House and Senate. My guess is Obama will be a one-termer.

[bvar22]

75. Actually, the split is Old Democrats vs "New Democrats" (DLC).

There are those of us who remember and support the values of the Old Democratic Party...the Party of FDR, Pro-Middle/Working Class Democratic Party.

and there are those who support the "New Democrats" because......?...undeserved Brand loyalty?...
...you have to support the Home Team??....:shrug:
I don't know why.
They certainly can't ALL be members of the top 1%.

Here is the OLD Democratic Party:

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.---FDR's Economic Bill of Rights

FWIW, I have a Masters, am self-unemployed, identify with the Pro-LABOR Class, 60, have NO Health Insurance, and strongly OPPOSE this massive transfer of Public Money to the Health Insurance Cartel with the IRS as the Collection Agency.

[Individualist]

76. Absolutely!

DLC has created a huge rift within the party.

[bvar22]

87. The silver lining.

Up until now, The DLC has been able to do their dirty work off the radar of most Americans.
The Obama Administration has made this obscene corruption more visible, and the Internet has given us a medium in which to raise the alarm and heighten awareness.
Spread the WORD!

Unfortunately, the good, progressive REAL Democrats will suffer as the Democratic Party BRAND NAME is destroyed by the "Centrists".



The DLC New Team
Republican Lite ONLY
Working Class Democrats Need NOT Apply

(Screen Capped from the DLC Website)


”I am a New Democrat!”---Barack Obama
http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=254931&kaid=85&subid=900184

[Marr]

85. That's not how it seems to me at all.

To me it seems the split is between:

A) a minority who's interest in politics is centered around a handful of social issues. They play around with politics like it's a social club and Obama is club president. Right-wing economic policy either doesn't bother them, or they like it.

B) working people, who assumed their government would be a tad less zealous about selling them out to Corporate America if they put Democrats in power. They are becoming very disillusioned very quickly

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. Ok here is a concept that as a political scientists

you should be very well aware off.

Ruling and Political Elites... who are mocking their base.

This is what is going on.

Oh just a historian here...

[jillan]

9. It's like everything I believed in just 2 days ago is gone - poof-

:hurts:

[defendandprotect]

59. But you were trusting and believing in something that didn't exist . . .

who could be happy about this . . .

but knowing what is really going on is the first step in trying to fix it --

How could any voter look at the corporate money backing these candidates and think

that this wouldn't happen -- this is systemic . . . all of government and its agencies,

all of Congress -- and the administrations. Every candidate.

How could anyone fail to see that we only get the candidates TPB give us --

We've know for 40 years that corporations/elites were buying our govenrment --

I don't know why the trust continued? Despite all we know about capitalism, somehow

Americans still believe it has something to do with democracy -- and fail to understand

how suicidal it is.

Overall, we all need our BS meters set much higher -- !!!

:)

[laughingliberal]

10. Only good news here is it appears Dean has some people worried despite their efforts to dismiss him

But, they are going ahead anyway. Once again, Democrats snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[madfloridian]

11. They are determined completely now to pass it.

They don't care what we think at all.

[laughingliberal]

47. No, they don't

And they have pissed off the right and the left. Passing a bill with no Republican support would only have worked for them if they had passed a bill Democrats could get behind. I saw a while back they seemed to be thinking they would impress the right by standing up to their "fringe lefties." The right isn't going to support them no matter what they do. As Hillary said, "He could walk on water and ...would complain he can't swim." Independents alone can't reelect him. Strong support from his party could have worked but we are, largely, made up of working class people and this bill hurts us. I hate this.

[defendandprotect]

60. Interesting that now, when we didn't come out to support REAL health care reform . . .

we need to come out to STOP this health care DEFORM -- !!!

:eyes:

[walldude]

81. Yeah nobody supported real heath care reform

no petitions were signed. No letters were written. No phone calls were made. NO one in the Democratic party had any idea what the people wanted :eyes:

[bluestateguy]

12. I will say this

Dean's problem in 2004 was that he only appealed to a narrow slice of Democratic voters: affluent, well-educated and white. He never really expanded beyond that (he won one primary, remember).

[madfloridian]

22. He only appealed to educated people? How dare he.

I am tired of this elite crap. The DLC started it against him and those of us who supported him. They called us fringe.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/62

[coti]

13. I don't even have health insurance.

As far as my "interests" that are at stake- I think everyone is going to be affected enormously by this. My approach reflects that understanding, too, in not believing that the best thing to do is to just hand hundreds of billions of dollars over to the insurance companies.

[chill_wind]

self-delete dupe

[chill_wind]

14. "the digital left" makes us much more ephemeral.

Our real existence at all, outside of the internet, and that of our friends and families, is at best dubious.

That's the suggestion.

[madfloridian]

16. VERY good point. We don't seem real to them.

[chill_wind]

26. They know better.

It's just another faux-frame effort to convince themselves.

Much like they tried to frame the "irrelevant" Howard Dean with one failed descriptor after another.
"Liberal elite" is straight out of the RW war path playbook. It doesn't get more explicit (or desperate) than that.

Don't listen to what they say. Watch what they're doing.

[snagglepuss]

36. A virtual rather than real existence. Excellent point.

:applause:

[chill_wind]

44. The "digital left" and women and Independants

and other Americans with computers vote. And we know the "digital right" goes to the polls, too.
Wait until they see the price for their stupidity.

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. You're right and it's because there are too many keyboard commandos

Too many on the left confine their activism to their computer. If we all put our feet on the street this would be a whole new ballgame.

[chill_wind]

48. I wish I thought that. But the corp media is paid to ignore our gatherings.

So, at least, it seems. It's only news when a group of 8-10 loony RRR people show up somewhere.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. All the more reason we need to keep on keeping on

Talking about it online is only part of the solution.

[chill_wind]

50. This could have a greater mobilizing effect at this point

when reality starts hitting a lot more people. This doesn't seem like a very good economic climate for a mandated gift to insurance companies that would be very unpopular in even the best of times, absent other meaningful and immediately felt reform. Depending on what finally gets signed, we might soon see.

[ChiciB1]

93. THAT IS ALL WE HAVE LEFT! Storm The Bastille! Damn The Torpedoes!

We really MUST do something even if EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM LAUGHS AT US!! They laugh now anyway! What ELSE DO WE HAVE??

NOBODY!!

[whirlygigspin]

99. it is both stupid and self-defeating to criticize us

If you think WE (your supporters) don't like this bill in the current form, what are the odds that the rest of the country will like it?

This should be taken as a LARGE warning sign; so STOP blaming your supporters for telling you what you don't like to hear and think of us as unhappy customers (because it's a for profit model) and fix the bill or at least 'pretend' to change something, you know, sugar coating with half the calories and twice the caffeine, or maybe with a nice public option outer coating and a soft creamy subsidized center.

Do you get me brotherman/preachers? at least try SELLING the damn thing before complaining about your customers.

P.S.(if you want to keep a business model for healthcare, you better be a lot nicer to your customers)

What kind of a friggin' sales job is this?


--"hey mister, wanna buy a vacuum?"

--"I don't like this particular model, no thanks"

--"you asshole elitist vacuum hater"

[PassingFair]

98. We give money, too.

Don't think they haven't noticed.

[Jamastiene]

18. I'm poor and uninsured and I agree wth what Dean said.

This bill forces me to buy a product that I cannot afford to buy.

[madfloridian]

20. You put your finger on the real problem.

Those who need it the most will likely have to jump through hoops to qualify for subsidies. People will not be able to afford it, the IRS will be after them I fear.

[Jamastiene]

30. A lot of people are missing that point about the mandate.

People below the poverty level or right at it will have to cough up money from nowhere to pay for something that we won't be able to afford to use. Whereas, before I could self-pay at my doctor's office when I went by saving a little over several months, now, I won't even be able to go, because I won't be able to afford the deductible. That really IS worse than no insurance at all. It's no health care at all. I'll be worse off and there are many people out here who are in the same exact position.

Also, what a lot of these people who are saying mandates are fine with them do not understand is that my case is not an isolated case that will not hurt them at election time. I live in a state that was red up until this election. The area where I live in is one of the most impoverished areas in this state. I've always voted Democrat (straight ticket) and as liberal as I can find in primaries.

The people around me where I live? The majority in this area? They usually vote Republican because that's what their parents did and what their grandparents did. This time, they decided to vote Democrat because they specifically liked what Obama was saying about health care. They didn't vote for mandates. That was primarily what they were against. I'd be willing to bet he has lost their votes in the future. I know enough to know they won't be happy being forced to buy something they cannot afford.

Rich people have health insurance because they can afford it. Middle class people have it because either their employers offer it or they can afford it. Poor people do not because we cannot afford it. Are we magically supposed to make the money to pay for this appear out of nowhere? I don't understand why they cannot see that. It is almost like they WILL not see that. They refuse to see it. They simply cannot conceive of what poverty is really like.

[madfloridian]

39. I agree. Many are missing that point.

It will hurt many people. It did not have to be this way.

[dflprincess]

42. Do you know how low the povery level is?

Supposedly this bill will allow open Medicare to people with incomes at 133% of the poverty level. That about $14,300 for a single person. It's insane for the income cap to be that low.

[JoeyT]

69. I've thought the poverty level was set far too low for a long time.

Just think, if someone making that saves 80% of their income for the year, they'll be able to cover the deductible on their shitty mandated insurance.

Sure they won't have a place to live, electricity, water, food, or actual care, but they'll have health insurance and a CEO will be able to afford 1/5th of another set of gold plated cutlery. Sounds like progress to me!

[PufPuf23]

31. And cannot afford to use is also likely nt.

[hfojvt]

82. not even with a subsidy?

Plus, you are probably a distinct minority on DU. My own income was 17,402.03 this year (since I just got my last paycheck of the year) out of which I paid $3,430.84 for health insurance and $181.20 for dental insurance. And another $696.06 was taken out of my check for retirement along with the $954.93 taken out for social security and the $199.95 taken out for medicare.

Of course, I am a special case because my house is paid off so I am not paying $400 a month in rent or $225 a month in housepayments which makes it possible for me to pay for health insurance and the current bill will perhaps give me a subsidy that I don't need.

[sabrina 1]

23. Thanks for posting this. I saw it yesterday and was so thoroughly

disgusted by it, I just clicked it away. I have seen these 'tactics' used so often by DLCers on political blogs. I would rather argue with rightwingers, than with them. They really, really HATE what they perceive to be the 'left', with a passion. I've never seen anything like it, not even when I spent time on rightwing boards.

So, what are they doing in the Democratic Party? I don't believe they are Democrats, I believe they are no different than Bill Chrystal eg, 'Straussian idealogues who really do believe that the left, liberals are evil and need to be eliminated.

And now they are in charge of this party. And I'm wondering, does Obama agree with them? Has the party been completely hi-jacked?

To understand how far from a democrat this guy is, imagine him on DU. He would be mistaken for a rightwing troll.

[Jamastiene]

33. I have seen post after post on DU in the last few days

complaining about liberals, left wingers, progressives, etc.

If you take a look at this:

Who We Are

Who is Welcome on Democratic Underground, and Who is Not

Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

About Democratic Underground, LLC

Democratic Underground (DU) was founded on Inauguration Day, January 20, 2001, to protest the illegitimate presidency of George W. Bush and to provide a resource for the exchange and dissemination of liberal and progressive ideas. Since then, DU has become one of the premier left-wing websites on the Internet, publishing original content six days a week, and hosting one of the Web's most active left-wing discussion boards.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/about.html

This site is supposed to be for progressives and left-wingers. Something is not adding up. We are being hi-jacked in the party and on here. It is so surreal.

[defendandprotect]

61. Yes, quite true . . .

and remember that this website is about big "D" Demcoratic Underground ---

not small "d" democracy ---

PLUS this website is very active in raising money for the party ....

After Obama picked up $800 million PLUS from voters -- he still proceeded to take

more corporate money -- and DU continued to raise more money for Obama.

I have no problems with a website raising money -- however, no one at DU gained any

leverage over the Democatic Party by DU collecting money from them.

Corporations are the only ones with leverage over the Democratic Party --

This has been going on 40 years or more with the buying of government --

if we want to save democrdacy and ourselves, we have to really, really understand that.

[QC]

28. Right out of the Republican playbook, isn't it? n/t

[chill_wind]

38. Yes. And it's a very, very bad move. n/t

[OHdem10]

35. The Elites are the Centrists. and Pro-Business Democrats

L. O"Donnell, made a telling comment the first evening
Dean had stated his opposition.

"Dean is a scary crack in the Wall of the Democratic Party."
One way of saying the Party Elites perceive Dean as a threat.

This explains why they are trying to marginalize him.

[Marr]

88. That's something that absolutely amazes me.

Their use of the word "elite" here is bizarre.

It's the Republican propaganda definition, which is nonsensical. They completely divorce the word "elite" from wealth and class, and instead use it as a short hand for cultural values. If you read, you're an "elite". If you protest, you're an "elite". If you criticize big business, you're an "elite". It's an Orwellian use of the word, and I'm not surprised to see corporate Democrats adopt it so casually.

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. BRAVO!!!!!!!!

You do get it... I guess that OP I posted the other day about this concept of political and ruling elites, quite in currency in OTHER countries, went somewhere... or you were familiar with it already.

[boppers]

37. Keyboard warriors generally have more time to kvetch and snark.

Left/right has nothing to do with it, the internet has given lots of folks a conduit to scream... and this has changed the dynamic, at least, the voices part.

What it doesn't change is the voting part, or voices from those without the means, or knowledge, to spend hours a day on echo-chamber forums.

[defendandprotect]

62. The internet has given us a chance to break thru the nonsense that a majority

of us aren't for single payer, a government run plan, Medicare for all --

and the same with all other issues.

What we see, is a liberal America which has been hidden from the public intentionally.

Most Americans, IMO, have their BS metters set too low --

there's still too much trust in corrupt/corporate government --

too much believe in capitalism. After all, weren't we all taught that capitalism was

synonymous with democracy?

We've know for 40 years and more that corproations were buying government and its agencies --

and our candidates.

We can continue to HOPE, but it looks to me as though things are very clear and the only

thing we'll see from here on out is legislation which moves public money into corporate

pockets!!!

Including CHURCH POCKETS!!!



EDITED to add a PS on the recent Papal Bulls pushed thru Pelosi to get the Stupak Amendment ...

Contrary to what the US Bishops and Rome are saying, Catholics support a government run health

care system -- AND they want it to include CONTRACEPTION and ABORTION!!!

The elite will always attempt to deceive the public about what's really going on ---

and that's true of their entire movement which is based on violence -- deception -- stolen

elections -- fake right wing religious movement -- fake think tanks -- and on and on.

[ChiciB1]

94. Yea Buster... YOU GOT IT ALRIGHT! You Got Everything You Wanted!!! n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. Oh, dear, Oh dear. It's them damned intellectuals again. Spiro Agnew(D)?

They really are running out the big name stooges to demonize the left.

[dflprincess]

43. Mostly it "effete east coast intellectuals", I'm sure

Or that's what Spiro would have said.

[QC]

45. George C. Wallace called them "pointy-headed intellectuals."

Strange role models this administration has.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. We on the West Coast had Ronald (the drool) Reagan to pick up Spiro's club.

And, threaten "blood in the streets" for the college students.

[Major Hogwash]

51. Brownstein is not a progressive, that's why the LA Times fired his ass last year

Let him go argue with someone about that!!

[Nikki Stone1]

52. They are terrified of Dean's influence because the left is already leaving them

They have to make the man look bad because their bill is so godawful.

[defendandprotect]

63. They know that Dean could lead a "walk-away" movement . . .

and they don't want to concede anything ---

either about his relevance or about getting a public option which would somewhat

knick the profits for the corporations.

I don't know . .. I would think Ameridans are fairly tired of having their tax dollars

funneled into the privatized-corporate-military, into Wall Street, into Banks -- over and again!!

Capitalism is intended to move a nation's wealth and resources from the many to the few --

and its quite successful at it -- as we can see at this point with our Treasury bankrupted by

war and trade agreements, tax cuts for the elites -- and bailouts!!

Most voters know that the buying of government began 40 years ago . . . but somehow all of this

info is something they seem to tie up in a fancy handkerchief with a blow and put under

their pillows, while they continue to dream their hope of being able to trust corporate

government!!!

[Nikki Stone1]

72. +1

..

[defendandprotect]

64. They know that Dean could leave a "walk-away" movement . . .

and they don't want to concede anything ---

either about his relevance or about getting a public option which would somewhat

knick the profits for the corporations.

I don't know . .. I would think Ameridans are fairly tired of having their tax dollars

funneled into the privatized-corporate-military, into Wall Street, into Banks -- over and again!!

Capitalism is intended to move a nation's wealth and resources from the many to the few --

and its quite successful at it -- as we can see at this point with our Treasury bankrupted by

war and trade agreements, tax cuts for the elites -- and bailouts!!

[NMMNG]

54. I am uninsured

I am far from wealthy.

I am very much against this piece of crap bill that is a boon to the health insurance agencies and of no benefit to us.

[defendandprotect]

55. Thanks Madfloridian for keeping after this ....

I don't get the NY Times anymore --

Maybe one reason former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean and so much of the digital Left can so casually dismiss the Senate health care reform bill is that they operate in an environment where so few people need to worry about access to insurance ...

Well, I guess that means they don't have to deal with most of the population pointing to this

crap corporate health care DEFORM as garbage -- !!!

'Cause we're only the "digital left" -- !!!


This is similar to the conservative view on DU which loves to suggest that comments made here

about the failures of the Obama administration are aberrations. Somehow they can ignore what

is going on all over America!


Same with the administration -- if you want to ignore ALL of the criticism, try to limit it

to a few on the internet!!!



:eyes:

:rofl:



Howard Dean showed the callousness of this administration in trying to pass out this corporate

crap on America -- and they in turn are showing us how powerful and relevant Howard Dean is!!


THIS LEGISLATION SHOULD NOT BE PASSED --

We need this health care DEFORM like we need more corporate control over government and

the adminsitration!!

[defendandprotect]

65. Rather what's been going on for decades is CLASS WARFARE on the middle class and poor . . .

and the weakest among us --

that's where they begin . . . with the weakest among us !!

[pattmarty]

66. I'm disappointed in Brownstein, I always thought him a sensible liberal.....

.......voice. I am a lifetime Teamster union member that retired at age 54 and now 63. I have a BCBS group retirement plan through my union which I pay out of my pocket just over 6,000 dollars for my health insurance with a 300K lifetime cap with NO prescription, dental or vision coverage. What drugs I need I get from Canada. Now to my Brownstein point, I have NEVER made 50K in my whole entire fucking life and am also a HS dropout. Now Ron, do you want to fucking TELL ME again about this fucking "elitist" bullshit? Just because I am a lowly working class guy and not a famous ex LA Times columnist, doesn't mean I don't have eyes and can't think for myself. The bill as it is at this stage is a POS and in my opinion will do more harm than good with NO controls on price that I can see.

[mmonk]

67. I'm so rich that I'm not going to be able to take the increases in costs

the next few years well at all.

[Starry Messenger]

70. I'm totally expecting to be called a moonbat by a DU member any day here.

This stuff is coming right from the top, and as QC points out, is right out of the Republican playbook.

[chill_wind]

89. Maybe you're just a "Rachel Maddow Superfan"-- another voice

the DLC would dearly love to see shut up, methinks. One with an actual corp cable media presence, unlike us "pajama bloggers". (Have they called us THAT yet? :-)

[Laelth]

71. The Administration is playing its hand very badly.

Dean-bashing is not the way to win friends and influence people on the left.

Kill the bill.

Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the answer to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.

:dem:

-Laelth

[snagglepuss]

78. Actually I think theylike the optics of being hated by the Left.

Approval by the Left in their eyes would be the kiss of death.:shrug:

[Laelth]

110. You may be right about that.

If so, we've elected the triangulating Clinton Administration all over again. How depressing!

:dem:

-Laelth

[anaxarchos]

73. Using a false "class divide" to paper over a real one...

...from Ron Brownstein, that well known champion of the poor and the downtrodden.

This is all about "helping", from people who haven't had a whiff of such a thought in years. Let's lower the minimum wage, in the interests of the unemployed. Let's break up the unions, in favor of "jobs".

Welfare "reform", for the benefit of the homeless.

Poor Houses, for the benefit of the working class.

Shameless.

[sulphurdunn]

74. Who is the target audience?

The Atlantic is targeted to white conservatives with college degrees who have an average income of $80,000+. The only conservative news magazines with higher average reader incomes are the Economist and the New Yorker. None of these publications (to the best of knowledge) has ever supported people centered health care reform. Similar average reader incomes are recorded for the more liberal news magazines Harper's and The Nation (which have supported people centered health reform).

[chill_wind]

79. Soccer moms and NASCAR dads, as the DLC likes to refer to them.

The swing voters. Independents. Moderate Republicans. They expect that they already have the captive centrist and conservaDem "base" in the bag. Everyone else are just "Partisan Superfans" on the left and far right making far too much noise, driving these poor Average Americans (swing voters) out of the debate-- and that's the support they absolutely feel they have to secure.

Partisan Superfans are Driving Average Americans From Politics
Opposing sides are so vested in winning the battle that they’ve lost sight of the bigger war
By Marc Dunkelman
Posted September 2, 2009

**Marc Dunkelman is a vice president of the Democratic Leadership Council.**


USNews&WorldReport-- on the HCR debate.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/opinion/2009/09/02/partisan-superfans-are-driving-average-americans-from-politics.html

[Ticonderoga]

77. It's past time

for the "digital left" to take their "digital dollars" and create a third party that will seriously challenge these creeps and put them and their twisted ideologies to bed for the common good of all Americans.

[madfloridian]

80. I am still trying to figure how the "digital left" got coined.

They must have people working on this stuff all day.

[chill_wind]

83. DLC's too lazy. They just borrow from the McCain campaign marketers and strategists. Here:

All about "The Left's Digital Warlords"

http://pardonmyfrench.typepad.com/pardonmyfrench/2009/12/i-love-the-far-left-screaming-at-obama.html


Eric Frenchman is an online marketing and advertising consultant located in New Jersey and Chief Internet Strategist for the online political agency Connell Donatelli Inc. Eric also founded the online marketing consulting company Eric Frenchman LLC aka PardonMyFrench with current and past clients of The Bank of Montreal, Diageo NA, and Genworth Financial.

Since 2006, Eric directed Senator John McCain's online advertising for his 2008 Presidential campaign working through the primaries and right up until election day.. Connell Donatelli won the AAPC's 2008 Best Use of New Technology award for Senator McCain's search marketing program.

more...http://pardonmyfrench.typepad.com/pardonmyfrench_about_eric/

I think he's got about 50 surrogates here. Or fanboys, anyway.

[chill_wind]

84. "digital dollars". I like that! n/t

[freddie mertz]

86. The same WDC politicians (and pundits) who dismiss the "digital left" now...

Are perfectly cool about the same folks who come begging for donations via the endless e-mails (like the ones I have been getting daily from from Obama and the WH, DNC, etc).

They are hypocrites and scoundrels, all.

Exception: Biden, who was polite and reasonable in his op ed.

[f the letter]

90. Arrogant is a kind way of saying it,

what a pile of horseshit. Ah, the elitist label..

[RubyDuby in GA]

91. Damn it! I hit unrec when I meant to hit recommend

I'm college educated and white and wouldn't have health insurance if it weren't for my Teamster husband working in a union job putting me on his insurance plan when I got laid off back in July because the job I had for nearly 11 years went belly up.

Howard Dean has been speaking for me since I became aware of him in 2003. I met my wonderful husband working on his presidential campaign and we will continue to support Howie in whatever he says and does. Can't say the same for the current occupant of the White House or any of his ilk at this point.

[ChiciB1]

92. PEOPLE... We Are SO SCREWED! JOE BIDEN!! I'm Such A FOOL!

We never even had a chance to begin with! They're ALL against us!! Why didn't Feingold and Sanders even stand up for us??

We don't have ANYONE! The one who has stood up will be torn to shreds!!

I'm about to make a statement that will make others think I've lost ALL MY MARBLES, because there is absolutely NO PROOF! Oh, I can't say it, but I feel it in my gut! There were at LEAST two candidates who pushed HARD "for fighting BIG CORPORATIONS!" One who got kicked aside without anyone looking back, who was shuffled off stage as quickly as possible. Then there was ANOTHER who stepped into it BIG TIME and ended up in DEEP Do-Do! Sometimes, when SOMEONE wants to make "sex" happen, they will go to ANY lengths! Pursuing a person until they break, and then when the "fix" is in, when the fish has been caught... it's TELL ALL TIME!

Forgive me for beating around the bush, but I've seen women go after men and won't let them go until it's done! I do wonder if that is what really happened. I heard many times that D.C. hated this one person and they would make sure he NEVER returned to D.C.

I may be off base here, but nothing makes sense anymore! We've BEEN HAD! The MACHINE that brought us OBAMA-CARE was the one who got him into the WH! That's what I think happened, and I FELL for it!

I must stop, my brain is EXPLODING!

[maryinthemorn]

95. yup, it looks like the WH will go after anyone who opposes them-and with their big guns!!

[tnlefty]

96. May I be the first to call Mr. Brownstein an elitist asshat?

I have health insurance which is supposed to be so decent that it would be one subject to be taxed. When I had an extended, expensive illness BCBS almost bankrupted us with the chargebacks, services they didn't think they needed to cover, etc. I thought back then that we were the exception. Then I began hearing more accounts of what others were or had dealt with and then I saw Sicko and it really hit like a ton of bricks that this happens more frequently than I had realized.

Access to insurance or having it isn't the answer, Mr. Asshat, and I was more driven to try to improve the broken system for the betterment of all of us.

These sniveling, arrogant, dismissive, elitist asshats are getting on my last nerve with their bullshit. :mad:

[BzaDem]

97. Good for Brownstein. He is exactly right (at least on the specific issue of healthcare).

Poll after poll after poll show that the uninsured support this bill MUCH, MUCH more than the insured.

It is very easy for Howard Dean to say "kill the bill" when he NEVER has to worry about getting any kind of healthcare he desires if the bill fails.

And I'm not even saying that Dean is grandstanding. I think he honestly thinks that this bill would be worse. But his view comes from a perspective that he is all set in life no matter what passes. Someone who has NO insurance now and would LOVE to have subsidized insurance, even if it were private and therefore inadequate in many ways, would have a different perspective.

[whirlygigspin]

100. hey Mr insurance salesman, try being nice to your customers

They want to 'sell' this for profit insurance racket by insulting their customers?

hey, get a clue...if your supporters (people who like you) react this way, what are the odds for the rest of the population reacting well?

stop whining about your customers, Mr.ForProfit senators, and change your marketing strategy.

Idea: new and improved...with fine sugar coating of PO or something to try SELLING your product! (what a concept!)


P.S.
complaining about those below you is elitism defined.

[tnlefty]

101. And how many of the Senators, Congresswomen/men, (who

are actually voting on the bill(s), WH advisors aren't set for life? Additionally, (a lot of millionaires, those aforementioned) have their salaries paid by taxpayers who also pay part of their insurance premiums.

Dr. and Dr. Dean seem to have a rather modest lifestyle in comparison, just sayin'.

[AlbertCat]

106. Only an idiot would think Dean did this because he has his own HC!

What a stupid bit of armchair psych! Dean has worked on HC in his state, is a Dr, and knows what he's talking about.

You'd think the Dems would listen to one of the people who literally got them back into power.... instead of turning up their noses while accusing the guy who got regular folks to register Dem an elitist.

[madfloridian]

102. Found this great blog post defending Dean from Brownstein

http://trueslant.com/zaidjilani/2009/12/20/wapo-columnist-ron-brownstein-attacks-howard-dean/

"Well, it’s 2009, and the Dean-haters trying to portray the governor and former DNC chair once again as someone he isn’t. Take the above smear by WaPo columnist Ron Brownstein. What he’s basically saying is that Dean is airing his concerns about the Senate’s health care bill because he — and the rest of the “digital left” — are a bunch of white-collar college graduates with health insurance who don’t care for the uninsured.

Here’s a history lesson for Brownstein: Under Governor Dean’s tenure, every single child in Vermont gained health insurance. It has one of the lowest rate of uninsured persons in the country, and most of it is thanks to Dean’s advocacy of the expansion of public insurance programs. Dean’s position on health care doesn’t come from being a pointy-headed liberal laughing at the uninsured masses, it comes from actual experience. Back when he was Governor of Vermont, he allowed the state’s Medicaid program to be outsourced to private insurers. It ended up being a disaster, and they had to reverse the process (something my own home state of Georgia is undergoing right now, as the cost of the state’s health insurance program for poor children, PeachCare, is exploding). He has come to his criticism not out of some emotional need to satisfy his intellectual biases, but as a smart and caring pragmatist who’s seen this movie before, and has not seen it end well.

I’m going to put aside the issue of whether the Senate’s health care bill should be passed or not, because that’s not the point here. I think what Brownstein is saying says a lot more about the way our elite media class looks at politics as a whole more than it says anything about Governor Dean or health care.

It seems like everytime the beltway culture, meaning the pundits and politicians who populate everything between Foggy Bottom and the Hill, reaches a consensus — whether it be Saddam Is A Dangerous Threat And Must Be Stopped or The Senate Health Care Bill Is The Best We Can Do — the people who dare to stand up and raise objections and try to make things better are attacked and demeaned as elitists and fringe activists, unconcerned with the Very Serious Problems we face before us."

Great post.

[chill_wind]

107. Zaid Jilani. Remember that name. We'll be hearing from him

more as time goes by, I bet. (he just joined ThinkProgress). Young people are paying attention.

Thanks for posting that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. So let me get this straight...

the Political elites are calling the activists elites?

This is funny...

Of course they are also counting on American Anti Intellectualism. Next they will call us socialists and commies, since we all know they are the same thing... :sarcasm:

[madfloridian]

108. Just about right.

:-)

[Enrique]

109. I wonder how the teabaggers fit into his theory

they've been fighting ANY kind of reform, all along, totally uncompromising. By Brownstein's reasoning, they must all be PhD's.

[wilt the stilt]

111. I wrote this to Brownstein

Dear Mr. Brownstein,

The gall that you show by calling us elitists who want a public option shows your disconnect with the average person. I ran my own business for 6 years and payed for my own insurance. I am 58 years old. The policies that we are offered are pathetic and the constant fights over payments are ridiculous.

Last year I spent $24,000 on healthcare. My daughter had to have her jaw moved back or she would lost all her teeth by the age of 50. The insurance company would not pay for the reconstruction of her jaw and if we mentioned it they would have disallowed the surgery entirely. This year they tried to make us pay for an emergency room Doctor because he was "out of network". I made some claims and they are reimbursing at a lower rate and I know this because someone at blue cross GA made the mistake by telling me the true rate.

For the individual buyer we don't get a family policy we get 4 individual policies each with a separate deductible and a separate out of pocket. I was in the pharmacy line with a 60 year old women whose husband owns his own business. She was practically in tears. She hated Blue Cross but said no matter how much she searched all the plans were terrible. Her deductible was $5,000 and her pharmacy deductible was $350. It was all she could afford. This did not include her out of pocket. I am very familiar with these policies. She was probably paying $1100-$1300 a month for this policy.

My daughter just found out some terrible news. She will have a compromised system the rest of her life. Her premiums will be sky high the rest of her life. She is 19.

So, before you call us elitists buy your own fucking insurance you fucking jerk.

Sincerely,