Question: Do we as US citizens really have any real voice in our government?

[old mark]

Given that the Bush regime did away with many constitutional rights via the "Patriot Act", and given that the US Senate has recently shown itself to be largely moneygrubbing whores, do we mere citizens have any real say in our governance or is this just high school civics bullshit?

Your opinion, please, is all I am after.
Thank you...


mark

[guitar man]

1. no

I don't think so :(

opinion here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7255941

[AndyA]

2. Take a look at what's going on around you in government today.

Is it reflective of the wants, needs, and desires of the people?

The vast majority of Americans want a public option in health care reform. There isn't one.

There's your answer.

[old guy]

3. Not really.

[tomm2thumbs]

4. no, unless you are the wife and can bend an ear

and even then, it is iffy

[mdmc]

5. BERNIE SANDERS!

God Bless!

[DesertFlower]

6. no. nt

[napi21]

7. The ballot box is really the only power we have. Kicking the

ones out who don't vote as you want would work. They all know that most of the incumbants get reelected, and I'd bet one good round of eviction would put the fear in the rest of them.

[clear eye]

23. Well it WOULD if the votes are counted as cast, and the playing field

isn't tilted even more toward the interests of the mega-corporations as is the case now w/ corporate campaign donations essentially legal. The message of a progressive can be blacked out by the MSM and the opposition's amplified w/ corporate $$. Progressives' ablility to organize w/o our leaders being arrested as "terrorists" is also in question. What do you think would happen if the head of a progressive coalition called for the most effective European tactic, the general strike?

If we want to reduce the divide between grassroots and most elected Dems, we have to fight really hard for structural reforms. I mean harder than we even did for healthcare reform, because that, and anything else we want depends on it. We have to push the limits like getting behind someone who will escalate to the gen'l strike when milder methods don't work, even if it means persecution. We have to put ourselves on the line for structural reform to re-empower the grassroots as we did during the labor movement, b/c at least at much is at stake.

At this point, I think we have to look for a "Ghandi" and act as bravely as his followers did.

[ixion]

8. no

not in my opinion. They want only our money, not our input into policy. That is for the Bilderbergers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. My analysis

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7253377

Yes we do, but only if we chose to challenge this in ways they do not expect it.

[asdjrocky]

10. No. It's been a while since we have.

I was fooled in the last election. It will not happen again.

[lumpy]

11. The only voice we have is when we hit the streets and even

then we aren't heard.

[Individualist]

12. No

[Hippo_Tron]

13. Yes, they're just incredibly ignorant and easily manipulated

Approximately half of the country voted for George W Bush twice when it was in the economic interest of only about 1% of the country to do so. That's a large part of the reason we have the government that we do.

[FarCenter]

14. You had 1 vote in almost 130,000,000 in the 2008 election

So, no, your vote doesn't count for much.

[Laelth]

15. Yes, but not much. We never have really had much say, to be honest.

Just take a look at the famous picture of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.



There are no poor people there. No women there. No non-white people there. This is a nation founded by wealthy, white men. For a long time, the United States was a nation completely controlled by wealthy white men. Slowly, women and non-white people have gained some power, but it always has been and remains of the rich, by the rich, and for the rich.

Ever so slowly, the middle and lower classes of our society have eaten away at the power of the ruling class. The internet has given people of ordinary means the ability to monitor and interact with our rulers in a more effective way than ever before. Barack Obama was elected by collecting small sums of money from millions of individual voters. That, in and of itself, speaks volumes about the new and very real power of the people to affect the political landscape in the United States.

Over time, I believe we will be able to live up to our founding ideals and become, in truth, an nation of, by, and for the people (meaning all people, not just the rich ones). We are getting closer.

But we delude ourselves if we believe the Democratic Party has ever served anyone other than their own wealthy interests. I hope that, in time, we can turn it into a real party of the people. If we can't, I will have to find another party.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Chan790]

16. No, nor have we ever.

It's a nice illusion, nothing more. The system was designed to allow the landed aristocracy and mercantile classes to protect themselves from the plebes at the same time it protected them from having to share their wealth with the theoretically-legitimate government of the British Crown. (I don't really believe that last part of it, however many of even the founding fathers really did think they weren't actually in the right...they just wanted to be free from that economic burden anyways.)

When Jefferson, et. al. talk about "We, the People"...we're not people. We're the workers; just machinery like a plow or black people or horses. Never forget our nation was founded by hypocrites, slave-owners and libertarian-capitalists. Sure some few people (Adams, Paine, Madison) really were good people who believed in equality...they were not the majority.

If men were angels, we would have no need of laws.

[StarfarerBill]

17. There are a few on the federal level who still speak and act for us;

sadly, they're marginalized by the greater number of conservatives and moderates.

[branders seine]

18. No.

the oligarchy's coup is pretty much complete at this point.

[shadowknows69]

19. Doesn't appear so does it?

[Goldstein1984]

20. If you have to ask that question, then the answer clearly is

NO, we don't.

As the linked OP in one of the posts above makes clear, the people will not be heard until they are willing to go outside of a system designed to keep them pacified and under control; a system designed by a ruling class to keep the peasants in line; a system designed to keep them enlisting and marching off to war to defend "vital national interests.

Saul Alinsky wrote two very good book on creating radical change (no other kind of change is going to beat the status quo): "Rules for Radicals" and "Reveille for Radicals."

The books describe the kind of thinking necessary to make change happen; the kind of thinking that party loyalists and the don't-rock-the-boat crowd find distasteful.

What the political and economic elites are hearing and seeing now doesn't give them a bother. They need to be shaken up.

What can we do? A lot! We just have to be willing to color outside the lines.

G1984

[Hannah Bell]

21. as individuals, usually not. as members of interest groups, somewhat more, sometimes.

but generally zilch in comparison to the voice of organized money.

[old mark]

22. Very interesting - I was pretty radical back in the 70's, but always participated in Democratic poli

I had about given up hope till the Obama campaign, got all excited and I am beginning to see lost my grasp on reality.

I guess reality just came back to get me.

Thanks for your comments and links. I am really surprised at the number of "no's".

mark

[MichiganVote]

24. Its an honor to pay taxes for shit we never see. You want a voice too?

:sarcasm:

[dgibby]

25. No.

Citizens cannot compete with corporations when it comes to buying Congress or the Administration, regardless of which party is in power.

[SOS]

26. No

The seat of American power is on Wall Street, not in Washington.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

27. No, we are immaterial.

[bridgit]

28. Yes, but not until we up-end the concept of 'redress' back into a people's right to petition...

the Gov for grievances committed *against them/and that includes us* - we the people - and not this malignant usurpation of 'redress' for intolerant special interests too large to either fail or grieve; or as the grease that greases the skids on K St...that is not redress, that is lobbying. They are different. And Americans need their Constitution and Inalienable Rights back where they belong and pronto!

[era veteran]

29. Campaign finance reform would help us

with the government. A true universal draft would stop these adventuring wars. Vote early and often.

[newfie11]

30. no

[damntexdem]

31. It looks less and less like it.

Unless some Dem liberals in Congress suddenly grow spines and battle tooth and nail against this crap.

And not many spines were grown in 8 years under Dubya, so it doesn't look good.

[Joe the Liberal]

32. imo no we don't, we only have the illusion that we do. n/t

[golddigger]

33. A big "HELL NO!"

[old mark]

34. Thank you again for all your opinions. nt

[Skittles]

35. no

the powerlessness I've always felt as a Democrat in Texas, I now feel as a citizen of AMERICA

[arcadian]

36. None whatsoever. That's why voting is bullshit.

[Raster]

37. No. Plain and simple. Our voice in government vanished years ago.

We are just the piggy bank, part of the infrastructure.

[Kitsune]

38. No. I finally realized that this year, and it makes me sick.

I'm the sort of person who gets excited about getting a jury summons. I have voted in every single election since I was old enough to do so. I delight in doing my civic duty in these sorts of matters. And I've finally realized it's all a crock of shit.

Nothing any of us does at the ballot box matters anymore. No matter who we elect, it's a question of how up-front the person fucking us over is going to be about said fucking over. Obama's turning out to be a goddamned disaster, Bush's third term with a little icing and maybe a cherry on top to try and distract us from the fact that he's expanding war, working as hard as he can to give our money away to criminal CEOs, and ignoring the civil rights issue of this generation. Executive power is just as ridiculous as it was, warrantless wiretap continues unabated, and the sick joke that is the TSA remains as asinine and as ill-conceived as it ever was.

I really and truly believe that he is just as craven and heartless a politician as Bush was. If you're a fan of Transmetropolitan, you'll know exactly what I mean when I say that we had a choice between the Beast and the Smiler. I'm still not sure which was which.

[old mark]

46. I have been a Democratic party line voter for over 40 years.

I feel literally like I have nowhere to go right now.

I really think of Obama as a republican, and I really feel pretty stupid to have been such an enthusiastic supporter of his campaign.

mark

[MineralMan]

39. Only if you particpate in local Democratic Party organizations.

If you don't do that, then you have no real voice. If you do, you help to select the candidates who run for office. If you do, the people you help to gain office will remember who you are and will listen to you when you call or write.

Or don't do that, and complain when you don't have any influence.

I use as my example Al Franken, who is in office today due to the efforts of those who caucused for him at all levels and who campaigned for him. If you like what Al Franken is doing, get involved, starting at your local precinct level. If you don't bother, don't bother to complain. You'll take what you get.

If you care, you can make a difference. If you don't care, then I don't care about your opinion.

[bemildred]

40. Is this a trick question?

Most of the political apparatus in this country is set up to make sure we do not.

[scentopine]

41. No. Unless you are rich or a corporation, Then you have rights. -nt

[ProgressIn2008]

42. No. Which begs the larger question - if no, what do we call such a form of governance?

It's time to start declaring some truth.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. Only if we use the one weapon we have. Our votes. Make them earn them.

[MineralMan]

45. That is not your only weapon. Getting involved in the process

long before any election is far more effective. You can help direct the course and help select candidates. It's up to you.

Working inside your local Democratic Party organization is true activism. Not doing so means you miss out on the greatest opportunity to influence the future you have. It's so easy to do, and so easy to make excuses for not doing.

[Orsino]

44. Sure. If we didn't, they wouldn't even *pretend* to try to reform our health care.

Yes, they're still a little bit afraid of us, on Election Day or some other day when they can be made to look like corrupt assholes on TV. There are courts which go out of our way to protect at least some of our rights.

That's about it.

[NorthCarolina]

47. Not even close, easily compromised voting machines, legislators trading votes for gold,

and a public media devoid of true journalistic principles, whose only real function is to sell Corporate Conservative Propaganda as fact....ummm, I'd really have to say

NO

.

[sad sally]

48. If you have a very fat wallet and are willing to empty it, or

if you have family ties to someone in government, or if you have any embarrasing knowledge of someone in government and are willing to spill the beans unless your voice is heard, or if you're able to sell the rubes (voters) into believing campaign promises and emptying their wallets. Otherwise, no.

[blues90]

49. NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! a;; it is is a sick joke . NT.

[bridgit]

50. Lotta "no" here = DU = tired, bored, deftest elitism...right?

Good Job :thumbsup:

[Juche]

51. Some

This is not a pure democracy, we have a hybrid democracy-plutocracy.

We have influence, but so do the wealthy and powerful. However at the end of the day they seem to get the final say no matter what. The fact that minor reform can't happen with supermajorities and a mandate is no accident. The wealthy knew which handful of members of congress to put pressure on, and what pressure to put there.

Take away their influence and build our own, and the issue will get better. Public financing & a strong activist base for primary elections would do a lot.

[dkf]

52. Not really. All we have the power to do is keep out the real loony tunes.

The lobbyists own the Government. Sad but true.

[donheld]

53. Didn't you believe George Carlin when he answered that?

[EFerrari]

54. I don't think so.

And we won't until we buy back our elections,imho.