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The bill does not protect people with pre-existing conditions

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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:36 PM
Original message
The bill does not protect people with pre-existing conditions
At least not unless they're (a) rich, (b) one of the rare handful whose condition is dirt-cheap to treat, or (c) already have extremely good insurance that's kept the bills all paid, plus enough private resources to cover their own share.

Why? It's because of credit.

The bill prevents insurance companies from discriminating against people who have pre-existing conditions, but I searched the text myself, and it does NOT prevent insurance companies from discriminating against people who have credit problems.

For instance: a fictional woman named Jacqueline has severe diabetes. She is completely uninsurable right now, even though she works a good job as a copy editor for a newspaper. She also has poor credit thanks to decades of medical bills piling up that she simply could not pay, as well as other defaults and delinquencies related to missed work/paychecks. All of these credit problems exist for her BECAUSE she has diabetes.

Under the proposed bill as it stands, a health insurance company could not deny her coverage because she has diabetes. However, they CAN pull her credit report, take note of the outstanding medical bills, and deduce that she HAS a pre-existing condition. They can then deny her insurance based on her poor credit score, and accomplish EXACTLY the same end as before the proposed reforms. The only difference would be that the excuse stamped on the rejected application would read "Poor Credit Risk" as opposed to "Pre-Existing Condition."

Now consider this: what do many, many people with pre-existing conditions have in common? Credit problems due to medical debt. So if YOU were an insurance company and you wanted to screen out expensive high-risk patients without blatantly violating the rules, how would you do it? Well, you'd screen them out anyway and reject all of the ones who don't meet your credit standards--a.k.a., the people with medical and other debt related to their pre-existing conditions. VIOLA! The most important aspect of the reform bill is thus completely nullified.

Of course a very wealthy person with diabetes might be helped to save some pocket money; their credit score would be fine because they'd been able to keep up with their bills out-of-pocket. The handful of people who already HAVE really good insurance and really good jobs would also be helped at least for a while, so long as their credit score stays good. But the non-millionaires WILL get screwed eventually. It's only a matter of time before financial hardship comes knocking for all non-rich people, and when it does and they miss a premium or two, the health insurance company suddenly has a valid reason to cut them off and never take them back, thanks to their reduced credit-worthiness.

As if the complete nullification of the pre-existing conditions protection wasn't bad enough, it could potentially get worse. Unless and until someone in Washington wakes up and sees this enormous loophole, there also won't be an exception to the mandate for people like Jacqueline, people who would be glad to buy insurance except nobody will SELL it to them thanks to their credit problems. If there's no exception made for situations like that, then people could be further penalized for their illness-related financial problems.

Simply banning insurance companies from considering medical debt when deciding whether or not to approve an application won't work either, because the repercussions of a medical crisis go FAR beyond just the hospital bills. There are missed mortgage payments, credit card payments, utility bill payments, car loan payments, ALL of which are caused by missing work time when ill/hospitalized, and are JUST as damaging to a credit report as medical debt, if not more so.

The only way to be sure that average people with pre-existing conditions are protected is to insert language that specifically BANS the insurance companies from using credit scores as an excuse to deny insurance. I've been doing some reading on this subject recently, and it seems that while auto and home insurance companies have been using credit report data for a long time, health insurance companies have only recently begun to do so because health insurance is an inherently different risk pool with its own unique set of ratios and complications. However, this practice is becoming more and more popular in our modern society, where your credit score basically determines your value as a human being.

Congress needs to address this problem NOW. Otherwise, we risk millions of extremely angry people who THOUGHT they'd finally be able to get health insurance, and instead got another round of denials with a mandated tax penalty on top, just to add insult to injury.

This is a serious problem and we need to be yelling about this. I urge you to contact your Senators and Congresspeople ASAP--feel free to use my own words if you don't have the time to compose your own.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. Can you give us a link to the bill you searched?
Was it House or Senate?
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yes, hang on--gotta find the link.
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 07:42 PM by Lyric
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:50 PM
Original message
Page number(s) please.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
28. I don't know. I simply used the search box for relevant terms
like "credit score," "FICO," etc. and found nothing specifically mentioned.

CreekDog posted some text from Leahy's website, but I am not convinced that it applies, as it only *specifically* mentions health problems.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. Yup, doesn't seem to exist.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
60. I interpret it to ban refusing anyone who pays.
http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/patient-protection-affordable-care-act.pdf


‘‘SEC. 2702. GUARANTEED AVAILABILITY OF COVERAGE.
16 ‘‘(a) GUARANTEED ISSUANCE OF COVERAGE IN THE
17 INDIVIDUAL AND GROUP MARKET.—Subject to sub18
sections (b) through (e), each health insurance issuer that
19 offers health insurance coverage in the individual or group
20 market in a State must accept every employer and indi21
vidual in the State that applies for such coverage.
22 ‘‘(b) ENROLLMENT.—
23 ‘‘(1) RESTRICTION.—A health insurance issuer
24 described in subsection (a) may restrict enrollment
83
O:\BAI\BAI09M01.xml S.L.C.
1 in coverage described in such subsection to open or
2 special enrollment periods.
3 ‘‘(2) ESTABLISHMENT.—A health insurance
4 issuer described in subsection (a) shall, in accord5
ance with the regulations promulgated under para6
graph (3), establish special enrollment periods for
7 qualifying events (under section 603 of the Em8
ployee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974).
9 ‘‘(3) REGULATIONS.—The Secretary shall pro10
mulgate regulations with respect to enrollment peri11
ods under paragraphs (1) and (2).
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virgogal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Ditto!
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. Nos!1!!!1111
This is a GOOD bill it will save thousands of lifes!!!!!The companys won't do that!! theys good. This bill will just let them run thier biznesses with out bein fraid of publik options.Wes not commys,yano.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. Good point....didn't think about that angle.
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 07:42 PM by Zodiak
The one that had me going was the age-discrimination written into the bill for insurance prices.

Young people pay 1x....older people pay 3x.

Nice, huh?

The way I figured it, the older you get, the more likely you are to have pre-existing conditions, and so no matter the reason, the effect is the same.

And now you are pointing out a loophole where they can DENY people coverage altogether.

Nice, Democrats......got any more "bipartisan" ideas?
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. And the other "trap door" ...there is still an annual cap on benefits.
If you get really sick, or have an accident, you will go broke, giving you "bad credit" even though you still have insurance, giving them a reason to drop, and or raise your rates...quite the cycle.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:25 PM
Original message
that's a huge problem and one Obama specifically addressed in his speech
that it ended up in there raises big questions in my mind about some of the players.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
5. Thank you - add the link to the original post

Good work!
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. Good grief....

without having people in Congress who genuinely represent US, this is starting to feel impossible. If we're not screwed from one direction, we're screwed from another more subtle direction.

The intention of those crafting legislation has to change. Their intention is not to protect our best interests, that's rather obvious. That won't change without campaign finance reform.

Thanks for these details, Lyric. Just one more negative to be aware of and bring attention to.



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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
7. No, "Guaranteed Issue" means they could not deny her insurance for bad credit
and we probably agree on 95% of the problems with the bill.

but that one isn't.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Can you give us more information on "Guaranteed Issue"? NT
NT
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. i did, see below
:hi:
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
38. But that language isn't in the text of the bill.
I think this is the latest version, but if there's another, let me know. I searched the text--it's not in there. Unless it's actually IN the bill, then that information could simply be Leahy's optimistic interpretation.

http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/patient-protection-affordable-care-act.pdf
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. it's on page 82:
"each health insurance issuer that
19 offers health insurance coverage in the individual or group
20 market in a State must accept every employer and indi21
vidual in the State that applies for such coverage."
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. Ahhhh!
None of my search terms are in that; no wonder I missed it.

Do you think that there's a risk of people with financial problems being socked with much-higher premiums, then? Is there any language to prevent that? I'll go look too, but you seem to be familiar with the text, so I thought I might as well ask. I'd be really upset if a health insurance company agreed to sell insurance to people with bad credit, but only at a premium so high as to be impossible to afford.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. hopefully the "community rating" is still in there
i have not looked, but i haven't heard that it was stripped.

my understanding is that your rates could vary by age (there is a widely discussed issue that older folks could pay 3 times what younger folks are charged). but your rates could not vary according to your health.

you might search the text for community rating. i don't know how large a "community" is intended to be, but it's not a neighborhood (too small), nor the whole country (too big).
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. Age, tobacco use, and geographical area, but nothing else
Page 80:

7 "(a) PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATORY PREMIUM
8 RATES.—
9 "(1) IN GENERAL.—With respect to the pre
10 mium rate charged by a health insurance issuer for
11 health insurance coverage offered in the individual
12 or small group market—
13 "(A) such rate shall vary with respect to
14 the particular plan or coverage involved only
15 by—
16 "(i) whether such plan or coverage
17 covers an individual or family;
18 "(ii) rating area, as established in ac
19 cordance with paragraph (2);
20 "(iii) age, except that such rate shall
21 not vary by more than 3 to 1 for adults
22 (consistent with section 2707(c)); and
23 "(iv) tobacco use, except that such
24 rate shall not vary by more than 1.5 to 1;
25 and

1 "(B) such rate shall not vary with respect
2 to the particular plan or coverage involved by
3 any other factor not described in subparagraph
4 (A).
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. On page 84, they say that you cannot be denied for certain health conditions
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 08:43 PM by Zodiak
It does not mention credit score.

‘‘(a) IN GENERAL.—A group health plan and a health
22 insurance issuer offering group or individual health insur23
ance coverage may not establish rules for eligibility (in24
cluding continued eligibility) of any individual to enroll
25 under the terms of the plan or coverage based on any of
84
O:\BAI\BAI09M01.xml S.L.C.
1 the following health status-related factors in relation to
2 the individual or a dependent of the individual:
3 ‘‘(1) Health status.
4 ‘‘(2) Medical condition (including both physical
5 and mental illnesses).
6 ‘‘(3) Claims experience.
7 ‘‘(4) Receipt of health care.
8 ‘‘(5) Medical history.
9 ‘‘(6) Genetic information.
10 ‘‘(7) Evidence of insurability (including condi11
tions arising out of acts of domestic violence).
12 ‘‘(8) Disability.
13 ‘‘(9) Any other health status-related factor de14
termined appropriate by the Secretary.

So as I read it, a credit loophole is an oversight of this bill. Strangely enough, perhaps only medical bad credit will be exempted because of the language of this section.

The previous section cited is for premium amounts. Age, geographic, and the evil smokers.

Am I to assume the Secretary mentioned a bunch in this bill is the Secretary of HHS? That's an awfully political position in the wrong hands. A particularly industry-friendly one would effectively render most the regulation in this bill useless.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. though the section cited in #46 above seems to cover credit
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7246683&mesg_id=7247068

That looks like a general "you must offer cover to everyone"; then this section explicitly lists health-related factors they cannot use to deny coverage. But perhaps there is a plan to weasel out of it using the combined wording in some way; an honest company wouldn't, but ...
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. That's the kind of detail we need to get to the bottom of
Because it will be the difference between the little bit of good that is in this bill, and nothing but vapors.

Vapors would be a disaster for all of us.
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virgogal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I hope you're right---the poor credit thing scares me to death.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. I don't think we can assume that.
We need to hear it specifically, because it seems to me like "guaranteed issue" (in the government's definition) could easily just apply to pre-existing medical conditions. Is there an official definition of what exactly they mean by "guaranteed issue?"
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Parker CA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
11. If true, an unbelievably fucked up loophole/omission in this bill. I'd love to see the link.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. link:
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Parker CA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. This line makes me question the denials for bad credit:
"All three pending health care reform bills would provide guaranteed issue and renewal and ensures that no one will be denied coverage for any reason."

I need more clarification before jumping to the conclusion that bad credit will cause denials. With that language, anything could be a cause for denial since it isn't explicitly listed.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. That line is not in the bill.
That line is explanation/interpretation. I did a text search of the Senate bill and that line is NOT in there. Search for yourself (warning, it takes a few minutes because it's searching a HUGE file.)

http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/patient-protection-affordable-care-act.pdf
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Parker CA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Well, that's not a good sign. Is there anywhere that states that exclusions can be made
due to poor credit issues?
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. I searched for "credit," "credit score," "financial," "financial issues,"
"FICO," "financial problems," "financial status,"...I found absolutely nothing that specifically protects us from that kind of discrimination.

I also searched for big-umbrella qualifiers like "...for any reason," "...under any circumstance," etc. There's nothing in there that applies to discriminating against people with bad credit.

Believe me, I'd be glad to be proven wrong, but I just don't think we can 100% rely on Senator Leahy's optimistic interpretation. This is a serious issue, and the very least we can do is to call our Congresspeople and make SURE that they either already have, or intend to, put language in the bill that says we cannot be denied for ANY reason.
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Parker CA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. Sounds like you were very thorough. Thank you for responding to my post with such detail. ;-)
The longer we have to explore this, the worse it looks, which is tough to imagine being possible right now.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
13. From Leahy's website:
Guaranteed Issue

Requirement of insurers to offer and renew coverage, regardless of health status or pre-existing conditions.

All three pending health care reform bills would provide guaranteed issue and renewal and ensures that no one will be denied coverage for any reason. Health care reform would mean that individuals who have preexisting conditions or who become ill would not be denied coverage or dropped from their coverage. Guaranteed issue also ensures that no one would be denied coverage based on annual or lifetime caps on the services an individual has received.

http://leahy.senate.gov/issues/health/VermontVoicesVocab.html#Guaranteed_Issue
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Annual caps are allowed in the senate bill.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. we are talking about guaranteed issue
you can talk about the other issue with me after we get done with this one --which is the point of the thread.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Your previous post implied otherwise, it seems to say annual caps are not allowed.
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 07:53 PM by MNDemNY
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. what did i lie about? you know me so well...
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 07:51 PM by CreekDog
do tell.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. The last sentence of what you posted from laheys website implied that annual caps are not allowed.
Maybe not his/your intention, but misleading at best.I will alter my post to reflect this.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. so first you say i lie and now you say maybe not my intention
thanks.

i'm sure you've edited the part about me lying by now. :eyes:
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. As I said I would in my last post.

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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. thanks.
:hi:
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. He didn't lie!
He quoted a passage from Leahy about how insurance signup or renewal couldn't be denied because someone had exceeded caps. That's not the same as saying there are no caps. You need to apologize for falsely smearing another poster's character.

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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Did that before you posted this, but thanks anyway.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. In fairness, that is a definintions page, and not a summary of the legislation
That may perhaps be what it means, but it is not evidence that the credit loophole is not open.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. then post the text of the Senate HCR bill as of it's latest release
i can't do all the work around here. :hi:
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
47. You posted the link blindly
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 08:11 PM by Zodiak
People often do not go to the links, but need to know its nature.

Plus your link does not say anything about bad credit specifically.

It's a definitions page of a point you made earlier, not evidence that the language of that page, as it reads, is in the bill.

As far as I know, there is no updated bill to search.

The credit loophole was claimed by the OP. You should take it up there. I have seen it said in a few places, and am interested to know all of the facts.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. i didn't post it blindly, i was trying to find a definition of guaranteed issue
which folks here were saying they didn't understand.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. Ahhh...you were asked for a link that it was in the bill earlier
Is it there, and does it have the same language?

Does it apply to situations outside of medical conditions?

The devil is always in the details, and without meaningful competition, mandates, and poor regulation, potential loopholes will become the WHOLE story.

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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. i was trying to answer the question and address the issue, not post bill text
by now, there is both my definition of the concept of "guaranteed issue" as well as links to the bill text on it.

and here is the text I've quoted since:

"each health insurance issuer that
19 offers health insurance coverage in the individual or group
20 market in a State must accept every employer and indi21
vidual in the State that applies for such coverage."
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. OK...I'll read the argument there for more info...thx
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. Notice this text:
"Requirement of insurers to offer and renew coverage, regardless of health status or pre-existing conditions."

The bottom part is interpretation of the text, but the top part is the actual definition. The interpretation is not in the bill, and could be wrong unless the definition language is changed to include financial status (income, credit score, etc.)
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
37. Actually, the first part of the sentence applies to all...
...and the second half gives further examples of what is meant. The second half isn't meant to be a comprehensive list of limits on the first half, nor could it be. You might as well say that "insurers could deny coverage based someone wears ugly eyeglasses' frames," because "that sentence doesn't mention anything about forbidding insurers from discriminating based on eyeglasses' frames."

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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. How can it apply to all when it specifically lists
"health status" and "pre-existing conditions"? Granted, there are a LOT of things that fall under those two umbrellas, but credit score is not one of them.

The "eyeglasses" thing isn't a very good example. It's too subjective (who defines "ugly"?) to ever pass Constitutional muster, and would probably be a privacy violation as well.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #41
69. because it requires insurers to issue coverage to everybody in one section
and further, it states unequivocally later on what can and cannot determine premiums.

i don't see how a judge will read this and say it allows people to be denied for bad credit. they might try, but it won't be on a valid basis.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. Requirement of insurers to offer and renew coverage, regardless of health status or pre-existing con
Where does it say "no denial because of bad credit"?
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #25
54. or blue eyes?
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
30. Thank you, Creekdog and Lyric.....

These informational threads, and action-oriented threads, are what make DU great, IMHO.

:hi:

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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #30
49. i want people to focus on actual problems in the bill
not on things it actually gets right! :hi:
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
45. Definition of "guaranteed issue"
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 08:26 PM by Eric J in MN
===================================
If a health insurance plan is described as "guaranteed issue," it means that applicants cannot be turned down for coverage based on their health status. Most job-based group health plans offer coverage on a guaranteed issue basis. Also, a handful of states require insurers to offer guaranteed issue individual policies.

It is important to remember that applicants for guaranteed issue plans can be turned down or have their coverage discontinued for other reasons, such as fraud or non-payment of premiums.


http://healthinsurance.about.com/od/glossary/g/guaranteedissue.htm
===================================

The definition doesn't say that they have to sell a policy to a person with bad credit.

UPDATE: Senate bill says:

‘‘SEC. 2702. GUARANTEED AVAILABILITY OF COVERAGE.
16 ‘‘(a) GUARANTEED ISSUANCE OF COVERAGE IN THE
17 INDIVIDUAL AND GROUP MARKET.—Subject to sub18
sections (b) through (e), each health insurance issuer that
19 offers health insurance coverage in the individual or group
20 market in a State must accept every employer and indi21
vidual in the State that applies for such coverage.
22 ‘‘(b) ENROLLMENT.—
23 ‘‘(1) RESTRICTION.—A health insurance issuer
24 described in subsection (a) may restrict enrollment
83
O:\BAI\BAI09M01.xml S.L.C.
1 in coverage described in such subsection to open or
2 special enrollment periods.
3 ‘‘(2) ESTABLISHMENT.—A health insurance
4 issuer described in subsection (a) shall, in accord5
ance with the regulations promulgated under para6
graph (3), establish special enrollment periods for
7 qualifying events (under section 603 of the Em8
ployee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974).
9 ‘‘(3) REGULATIONS.—The Secretary shall pro10
mulgate regulations with respect to enrollment peri11
ods under paragraphs (1) and (2).
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. here's the text from the bill: (page 82)
"each health insurance issuer that
19 offers health insurance coverage in the individual or group
20 market in a State must accept every employer and indi21
vidual in the State that applies for such coverage."
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #48
61. Yes, I agree. I hadn't read that section before I wrote that. NT
NT
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
17. Wow. This is very significant. k&r for exposure.
Thanks for posting this.

:dem:

-Laelth
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
23. I think it is a good question, but before yelling, may be you could ask the question.
My guess is that this issue is covered. However, one issue that is more likely to exist is what happens if somebody cannot pay its premium because, all of a sudden, he/she is unemployed or just has too many debts.

That is a question I would like to know the answer to.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
56. As someone who has worked very sporadically the past 2 years
I'd like to know too. How on earth are self-employed or contract workers with fluctuating incomes supposed to be able to maintain the coverage they need to be in compliance?
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
33. There was a guy on Ed's show the other day that discussed this...
he said that the insurance companies will have no problem not covering people with preexisting conditions.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
65. Former CEO of Cigna
Yes, he has said time and again that there are loopholes a mile wide that can easily be worked around to keep people denied.
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
40. I have been writing about this for a while - You are EXACTLY correct!
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 08:02 PM by Vinnie From Indy
I will also add that if it isn't bad credit that relieves the insurance companies from actually following through on providing health care it will be one of a hundred other scams they have ready to go. For example, they will accept a patient with an expensive pre-existing condition and then make it so onerous and difficult to get treated that it might as well have denied the claim. Other tactis Big Insurance will use to effectively deny coverage of pre-existing conditions is to simply delay processing or make paperwork requirements unreasonable or any number of other things that pop into their evil brains.

In short, I think the argument to hold our noses and accept this bill is folly becuase even the good things will never be delivered on. The reason they will never be delivered on is because there is no mechanism to police them in this regard currently in the bill.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
53. Does it prevent discrimination of people who have blue eyes?
if its not written down I guess they could discriminate against them.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #53
63. and there's no provision about Unicorns either
:hide:

(sorry! :rofl: )
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #63
71. That was unnecessary.
This was a good-faith post about an issue I was legitimately concerned about, an issue that could be a very serious one. I didn't call for the bill to be dropped, I called for people to ask for assurance from their Congresspeople. The ridicule is uncalled for and rather mean-spirited. I suppose that's par for the course at DU lately and I shouldn't expect better.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. i was joking
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 09:01 PM by CreekDog
sorry.

(and if I edit it out now, people will think I said something genuinely bad)
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #53
66. Corollary question:
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 08:47 PM by Zodiak
If a company decided that, who is to stop them?

(technically it could be argued that blue eyes are a genetic condition, which is related to health, and cannot be discriminated. But occupation, credit score, criminal history, and a plethora of other reasons could be chalked up pretty quickly in the absence of meaningful prevention)
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #66
78. the law requires them to issue insurance to ANYONE
that's what.

now even the OP understands this, are you paying any attention?
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seeinfweggos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
70. bullshit
In health insurance, this term refers to a medical condition that has been diagnosed in a patient attempting to purchase health insurance. Depending on the severity and the length of time that has passed since the diagnosis, a pre-existing condition can lead to higher premiums, gaps in coverage deemed related to the condition, or wholesale denial of coverage.

Under current law, most states allow health insurance companies issuing plans for individual coverage to make decisions on what procedures they will or won't cover as well as premium costs based on injuries or conditions a beneficiary has had and includes conditions a patient was born with. For example, if an individual is trying to purchase health insurance (not through a group, or employer plan) and has asthma, that patient could face higher premiums, an "elimination rider" saying that the insurance he or she purchases will not cover anything relating to his or her asthma, and in some cases, coverage can be denied or cancelled after the diagnosis of an illness that could have been directly or indirectly influenced by the beneficiary's health history.

The version of the health care reform bill that was drafted by the Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee includes this: "A group health plan and a health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance may not impose any preexisting condition exclusion with respect to such plan or coverage." The House of Representatives is working on similar legislation that also includes this provision.

http://leahy.senate.gov/issues/health/VermontVoicesVocab.html#Pre-existing_Medical_Condition
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. Did you read the OP?
Its not about health. It's about credit score.

Something left out of the bill.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
74. That is patent hystrionics
what"Death Panels" aren't working any more?
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. I can tell you this
One-liners aren't

Nor are comparisons with right-wingers.

Try another intellectually dishonest method of argumentation and you may find more success than a simple rhetorical bird dropping.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
76. What is the enforcement mechanism?
Will someone who has been dropped or denied coverage for some alternative reason have to file suit against the Insurance Cartel and fight their way through court?
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
77. K&R
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