War

[debbierlus]

War is Death.

War is Murder.

War is children without limbs

War is Orphans

War is Rape.

War is Psychological Torment

War is Widow making.

War is Homelessness

War is Toxic Pollution

War is Poverty.

War is Burnt Flesh

War is Hunger.

War is Torture.

War is Kidnapping.

War is Human Degradation.

War is Destruction of Ecosystems

War is Stealing.

War is Contaminated Water.

War is Sexual Enslavement

War is Terror.

War is Pain.

War is People with their heads blown off.

War is Imprisonment.


And, war has become an academic discussion in America. War has been allowed to be fought on lies with no repurcussions. War has become a doctrine of preemption. War is a academic and masturbatory conversation between talking heads. War is experimentation(give it a month, give it a year, give it a decade).

We have become sick in our souls. Sick in our hearts.

The fact that we sterilize our crimes and believe our fear justifies this horror. It is collective insanity.

The arrogance is breath-taking.

We have lost our minds.

[Bicoastal]

1. "It is well that war is so terrible - otherwise we would grow too fond of it."

--Robert E. Lee

[debbierlus]

3. Terrible for those whom bear the bullets and bombs

A terrible Karma is upon this country.

[Goldstein1984]

35. This is going to go badly

How did we get to this point? When did "national interest" replace defense as a reason to send young people to die while killing others?

As a nation, we're bullies and cowards.

[lyonspotter]

54. And how many of our youth...

...don't even know what is going on as they sip their vanilla lattes at Starbucks?

The Vietnam generation was not so unaware!

[county worker]

56. The Vietnam generation was not so unaware!

Go back in time and read all the discussions and articles in campus newspapers about the apathy during the Vietnam war.

I don't want to pick a fight but we have surely glamorized and white washed the 60's on this board.

[BeFree]

2. We have lost it

We are a sick people. Our end is not going to be pretty. You live by war, you die by war.

It didn't have to be this way. We know better.

[debbierlus]

4. Live by the Sword...Die by the Sword

[WillyT]

5. Please Add This...

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7220922

:shrug:

:hi:

[Bjorn Against]

6. Yes, as much as some would like to deny it war is all of those things

[babylonsister]

7. Oh please. Maybe you're sick to your soul, I am not.

Your "arrogance is breath-taking". Or "have you lost your mind?"

This ain't all peace and love in this day and age. If you think there are no threats out there, who will you blame when there are? Let me guess...

I don't have an answer, but you don't either. I'd love to think if everyone just chilled, nothing would happen. Sadly, I think not.

[whatchamacallit]

9. You confuse me

A truther (right?) defending the continuation of Bush's illegal wars... What am I missing?

[BeFree]

12. heh

You do realize that the rest of the world is one day gonna look at the US and what it has done and say, with might, screw them!

What is it that makes Americans feel they are right to be the world's bully and force our war on the world? We could easily have peace.... but no, we have war. Its not good. We have gone too far.

[babylonsister]

17. The rest of the world already did that with idiot son. The current

President is making an impression and making a difference. I'm sorry there are people so consumed with hate to fail to realize that. I can post til the cows come home, but I won't make a difference. Those people are as intractable as the kool aid drinkers, and I'm tired of trying. And that includes the OP.

[whatchamacallit]

18. So... were these wars "just" under bush, and if not, why are they now? (n/t)

[BeFree]

24. Some impression

Grabs the Peace prize and what's he talk about? More war, and it damn near sounded like Cheney's ideas.

Take your head up and see what the rest of the world sees. An America that is continuing down the same path of more war.

Being against war as the OP laid it out is not hate. Quit your twisting. It is very unbecoming, sis.

[Goldstein1984]

26. Do you mean "too consumed with hate to"

be in favor of war and that nice list of all the things war is?

[MellowDem]

36. What simpleton "world' do you live in?

The world is not united in any way vis-a-vis the US and each nation has their own interests, it's not some dichotomy of the US and the rest. And in Afghanistan, it is a bunch of NATO countries that have been there since the beginning.

You say we could easily have peace... whose "we"? The world? Cause that's a joke.

[debbierlus]

22. So, you believe the war in Afghanistan is a just war

Then, defend it.

Not, Obama.

The POLICY.

If you think this war would be worth YOUR love ones being bombed and your kin going to die, tell me why.

Tell me why it is worth spending hundreds of billions in Afghanistan. Tell me what we will get for the bombings of civilian populations. Tell me what goal is so worthwhile in this war that you would defend it with your own blood.

And, if you wouldn't, then why would you condone other people to that fate?

And, because Obama said so does NOT count as a answer.

This isn't about Obama, it is about us. It is about our acquiesence to the military industrial complex, and the justification of killing and destruction and the stealing of resources for our benefit.

You don't like my pointing out unpleasant realities about this President's policies, stop reading my posts. Your snide comments add nothing to the dialogue.

[Mithreal]

40. debbierlus, these fools aren't going to die. It will be someone else.

I lost a lot of respect for one particular DU'er I really liked after reading the response to you.

It's so offensive for you or anyone to trouble them with the NEGATIVES of war when the positives are so overwhelming to them.

[debbierlus]

58. I know - and the casualness that people accept war is really what this post is about

The American people are indifferent to war because it isn't fought on their land.

It is incredibly easy to be blase' about death and destruction in the abstract. Only, this isn't abstract. People will die. People will be maimed. Children will be orphaned. All the horrors of war will rain down upon civillians just trying to live their lives.

I don't think many people fully grasp the horror of Obama's speech this past week.

He used the concept of just wars to justify the fighting of an unjust war - as if the theory and reality aren't even connected.

Obama sanctioned the Bush doctrine in this speech.

He completely diminished the devastation our country wreaked in Iraq and called for no responsibility for the horrific crimes of his predecessor.

It was a Orwellian speech that should shake every American citizen to their core.

[whatchamacallit]

8. Thanks, this is how I see it too. K&R

[annm4peace]

10. You are correct. I hoped you watched the History channel " People Speak"

so many of us working, marching, protesting to end war.

[debbierlus]

11. No cable, but I will look for the videos on youtube.

[kas125]

38. While you're there, be sure to watch this one -

The History Channel decided to delete it from the show. :grr:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD1IrzSOCWU - Marisa Tomei reads Cindy Sheehan

[annm4peace]

46. Incredible.. thank you.

Now that is history... one mother anger

[Ramulux]

13. I know

Obamas speech defending the occupation of Afghanistan is easily one of the most pathetic and depressing things I have ever heard. The worst part is that he is not adding any kind of substance to this discussion, he is merely repeating talking points created by the Bush administration. Out of all the problems I have had with Obama his stance on war is easily the most troubling. The worst part is that his actions regarding foreign policy give so much fuel to the NWO conspiracy theorists and pretty much validate things they have been saying for years. Whenever I find myself in a discussion with a real conservative or libertarian I find it so hard to defend anything Obama has done because all they have to do is focus on Afghanistan and it makes all his other achievements look so weak in comparison to how monumentally horrible he has handled the war.

[debbierlus]

25. The speech was terrifying. It basically used the premise of just wars to defend this unjust war

If you notice, he made NO case for the war in Afghanistan as a just war.

He just said that some wars can be just.

Anyone who has taken a basic ethics class in college knows that there are premises that must be met for a war to be considered just. And, this war does not meet the criteria.

I am currently reading and writing about this for a future post. Stay tuned.

[Goldstein1984]

27. He did everything George Bush did

He invoked 9/11

He used West point cadets as a prop

He exaggerated the contributions of other nations

He cited national interest ("vital" nation interest)

He exaggerated the threat

If you only had the transcript, you might think W gave the speech

[debbierlus]

29. Judge a man by his actions and the company he keeps

Not his words...

[Goldstein1984]

32. That doesn't change much

[lyonspotter]

63. Goldstein1984, very astute observation. Thank you! Can we think of...

...any other similarities?

[lyonspotter]

62. Watching for it. ...NT

[NYC_SKP]

14. Got it. Nice summary. War is bad, only bad people like war. Sometimes fighting is necessary.

and sometimes the fighting is on a large scale, and then it's called a war.

War is bad.

[tblue]

15. "Why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?"

What is it good for?

[Mithreal]

41. That's what a number of idiots here appear to be saying.

I know it is not nice to call names, but they'll live.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. "If it's natural to kill, how come men have to go into training to learn how?" Joan Baez

[mmonk]

19. War is a racket.

Also, bombs and missiles kill pregnant women as well (meant for the pro lifers). But in our case, war is a choice. We have over 1000 military bases in 135 countries. No country is actively seeking to start a hot war with us. But that won't last as we seek domination in global economic hegemony with the use of economic hitmen, clandestine operations enforced by the world's most powerful military, especially now since we've abandoned all international protocols and law.

[democracy1st]

20. +1

[Goldstein1984]

33. Yes, and...

with 5% of the world's population we spend as much as the other 95% combined.

My gut tells me this is another Vietnam (I know that's getting tired, but I think it's applicable). It's going to end the same way. Maybe that's a good thing. After another defeat, with our economy in ruins, we might do a little introspection.

[mmonk]

45. It is a regional Vietnam I would say with nothing to fill the vacuum.

The world, I think is waiting for our implosion much like the USSR's.

[Goldstein1984]

51. So am I. And I'm not sure that

it would be such a bad thing. We're an overstretched empire in denial. We might emerge from the collapse a little more introspective.

This is difficult to say, but given that we are doing this Afghanistan thing, my personal wish is that we fail. If we succeed, we would emerge from that victory even more convinced that war is the answer to problems.

Just my thoughts.

[leftstreet]

21. K&R

[bridgit]

23. War is Primordial

[A-Schwarzenegger]

28. "... war is at some level an expression of human feelings."

Full baffling quote from the speech:

"So part of our challenge is reconciling these two seemingly irreconcilable truths -- that war is sometimes necessary, and war is at some level an expression of human feelings."

[Major Hogwash]

30. "War is a academic and masturbatory conversation between talking heads." Well said.

When you turn on the tv and some jerk who never served is discussing war with another jerk who never served, it is a masturbatory conversation.

It's even worse when they try to defend it.
You can't find many soldiers that will even defend it these days.
Especially the ones in the National Guard who had to serve in Iraq.

It's not even worth arguing about here at this forum.
People who think the war may have some merit many years from now will not change their minds about it, no matter how many times the history of other military debacles are brought in to the discussion. Their egos simply won't let them realize we are making a monumental mistake.

One definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over again, expecting a different result.

Waging war is not a football game.
We are not on different sides, with cheerleaders, with people in the stands shouting at the referees, and respected coaches with their assistant coaching staff.

We are all in this together, and this "us vs them" horseshit is going to cost us down the road financially and politically.
Not to mention the damage we do to ourselves while our nation turns a blind eye to the Geneva conventions, and what torture - real torture - involves.

There is no middle of the road whereas war is concerned.
You can't sit on the fence and not be affected by it.

[Desertrose]

31. That about nails it.

We have lost more than our minds...we have lost our hearts.

[20score]

34. K&R.

Like your posts.
Just thought I'd mention that.

[MellowDem]

37. War is a relative term...

All of those things you listed happen in "peaceful" nations quite often. Your rant comes across as way too simplistic, that's the only "breathtaking" thing.

[Mithreal]

42. obfuscation

[mikita]

39. K & R n/t

[apocalypsehow]

43. War is also no Nazi Germany dominating Europe. Or Slavery thriving in the American South.

Given your OP, I suppose you are for both of those things - Nazism and Slavery - in the concrete, if not the abstract.

Because the concrete fact is that "War" ended both of those things.

[annm4peace]

47. at what cost? and we will never know if other means wouldn't have ended it

I get tired of the simple comment. War ended Nazism.. War ended Slavery... Thank the Military for your Freedom.

Did War end Jim Crow? Did War give Women Citizenship ? Did War give civil Rights to Blacks?

[TwilightGardener]

48. How long would you have been willing to give the Nazis the benefit of the doubt, after

they already steamrolled Europe and killed millions? Years? Decades? Just curious.

[debbierlus]

59. And, who are we going over there to liberate?

[lyonspotter]

60. And maybe WWII could have...

...been avoided had we started resolving problems immediately after the first world war concluded instead of treating Germany like they were the reason for all the world's woes. Then, perhaps a Hitler never would have come about. But the seeds you sow you often reap...

[Thothmes]

65. Thanks. Someone with any eye for reality.

[JonQ]

66. That requires

a military solution to WWI.

[apocalypsehow]

67. Wait a sec...let Wihelm Germany keep its colonies, its Navy, it Emperor? Hmmm...

And that would've kept the peace in Europe for...how long?

Someone needs a college entry European History course - 1871-1989, please.

[JonQ]

70. I think germany was unfairly maligned in WWI

Yeah they started it, but frankly every major nation in europe (except maybe poor austria-hungary) was spoiling for a war to see who was going to come out on top. They'd been playing around in the colonies for long enough, a showdown on the continent was inevitable.

[apocalypsehow]

72. No one forced Austria to deliver those demands to Serbia - and no one forced Germany to back her

when the predictable happened and Russia came to Serbia's aid. That "blank cheque" Wilhelm handed out got cashed - and it was catastrophe for his nation.

Don't you agree? :shrug:

[JonQ]

73. No, no one did

and germany certainly did intend to start the war.

My point was merely that they weren't the only nation looking for a fight. Had they backed down the war still would have come, just at a later date and for a different justification. It's not wrong to blame the germans for starting it, but it is wrong to make it out as if they were the only ones looking for a war and eveyrone else was just singing kumbaya.

Unlike say WWII where they definitely planned it long in advance, and no one else really wanted to fight it.

[apocalypsehow]

74. On these points, we're in total agreement. Well stated. n/t.

[Hippo_Tron]

44. I don't see why an "academic discussion" is necessarily bad

As someone who does plan on studying war (amongst other things) in graduate school I can tell you that the question of why human beings would put themselves through all of the things you describe above is an absolutely fascinating one. Furthermore, if we ever want to put an end to war it would probably be prudent to understand why we engage in it in the first place.

If by "academic discussion" you mean ignoring the human consequences then yes that would indeed be problematic both from a moral and an academic perspective.

[debbierlus]

50. Any discussion would be beneficial. The blase' attitude Americans have towards war

It needs to be examined.

Obama's speech was downright chilling. And, the acceptance of war by the American people by such generalized rationale that do not imply to the current war is sad and frightening.

This whole thing is heart breaking and it is overwhelming.

Our numbness...our indifference...it is just sad.

Very, very sad.

[lyonspotter]

61. American Idol, Starbucks, and LeBron James vs Kobe Bryant...

Stop bothering us about war. We have a right to be entertained!

[county worker]

57. " why human beings would put themselves through "

IMO, generally the majority of those who fight in war never chose to do so. They run up against a choice. Either do as they are told or resist. Resistance has some very negative consequences. The majority do not resist, now that is the thing to study IMO.

[Vidar]

49. K&R.

[Blue Owl]

52. Chickenhawks started the last 2 optional wars we're still choosing to wage

That's what is really irksome to me.

[Thothmes]

64. You were not irked by tthe fact

that Johnson started an optional war that cost 36,000 American live, wounded another 200,000 and killed or wounded between 2-4 million Vietnames. Or was that ok because he had the right politicl party affiliation.

[lyonspotter]

53. K+R!!!

Thanks!

[Echo In Light]

55. K&R

[JonQ]

68. War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things.

The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~John Stewart Mill


Of course not all wars are good, but that doesn't mean that there are no just wars.

I'm rather content that the death camps in nazi germany were put to an end. And no more slavery in the US suits me just fine.

[tnlefty]

69. Yep.

And earlier I saw Evil Unca Dick's 5th deferment on my teevee screen talking about how this is good, but bringing up torture on foreign soil is bad. I despise her almost as much as I despise her father.

Bottom line - don't speak of the horrors 'cause it's supposed to be all good. :puke:

[dave29]

71. Alrighty, make it stop then.

Got my stop-watch out.