An alternative to the Boy Scouts?

[MSchreader]

As some of you know, I'm a member of another political party (but I know whose house this is, so I don't really make a push of it), the Workers Party in America. Lately, we've had a number of members, supporters and friends approach us about the dilemma of wanting to have their young children involved in adventuring and outdoors activities similar to the Boy Scouts, but not wanting to subject their kids to the religious discrimination and jingoism of that organization.

So, some of us have put our heads together and the solution we came up with was simple: start an alternative for boys and girls of working-class families that weds the best values from the Scouting tradition -- honor, duty, respect, trustworthiness, etc. -- with a secular, class- and community-based orientation.

In short, we are looking to revive the Young Pioneers.

Those of us spearheading the effort are all Scouting alumni; three of us are former Eagle Scouts (I would be the fourth, but I never undertook the Eagle Board of Review due to my becoming an atheist and socialist). The program would be open to all boys and girls from working families ages 8-17 who are interested in the kind of activities that Scouts traditionally do, but for one reason or another cannot or will not join the Scouts. (We are also working on a program for young people from non-working class families, called the Wayfarers, that teaches about what it means to be a working person in society today.)

Please note: While the original Young Pioneers was known for being little more than a communist organization for young people, this revived Young Pioneers would not be an avenue for "indoctrination". Yes, members of the Young Pioneers would learn about different and alternative political viewpoints, including socialism and communism, but they would not be required to accept or adhere to them. The focus of our project is service and respect to class and community.

If people here are interested, contact me and we can talk more about it.

[JVS]

1. OT: How do you decide if a kid belongs in Wayfarer or Pioneers?

I find discussions of class boundaries on DU fascinating.

[MSchreader]

2. DUMail me about it

Or post a separate thread on the subject and I'll give you my view. That goes for any others with a similar question. (Sorry, I just don't want this to devolve into another discussion that rightly deserves a separate thread.)

[JVS]

5. PM sent

[proteus_lives]

3. Young Pioneers?

:rofl:

Like that's any better then boy scouts.

Tell me, what glorious leader will they swear loyalty to? How many months will they spend on the collective digging for beets? How many hours will they wait in toilet paper lines?

Will you teach them to inform on their parents for "Crimes against the Party"?

What's the time-frame on splitting into factions over ideology and slaughtering each other in the streets?

How long will your list of banned and censored reading, music and religious materials be?

Onward comrades! The blood of the Kulaks will run in the streets! :rofl:

[MSchreader]

4. Doesn't take you folks long, does it?

Do you have something constructive to offer, or is your mission simply to tear other people's ideas down? I'm guessing the latter, given the smugness and arrogance of your post.

[proteus_lives]

19. Communism is a dead ideology.

Sorry but it's true.

Necrophilia isn't good for you.

[MSchreader]

24. Communism is as dead as the conflict between workers and bosses

Obviously, we know which side you're on.

[proteus_lives]

26. You got me. I'm a boss.

In fact I'm wearing a monocle and a top-hat right now. I'm twirling my kaiser 'stache over a glass of fine cognac.

Your dead-end philosophy just creates new bosses and new workers. It changes nothing, it's been proved over and over.

Did you learn nothing from the birth, life and death of the USSR? The ongoing horror of North Korea?

[MSchreader]

31. Yes, actually I did

Probably more than you did, since I actually made a point to study more than just one side of the argument. (Damn! There goes that ol' Scout training again.)

What I learned, first, is that the liberation of working people can only be carried out by working people themselves -- not "vanguards" composed of "middle class" elements acting "on behalf of" workers. And, second, I learned that just because someone calls themselves something doesn't mean it's true.

Or, to put it in language even you can understand: The "Marxist-Leninist" Stalinites were/are representative of communism like George W. Bush was representative of democracy and freedom.

P.S.: My comrades in the USSR were imprisoned and jailed in the 1920s, under Lenin and Stalin both. Look up the name "Gavriil Miasnikov" sometime.

[MSchreader]

7. OK, a more serious answer, point by point

"Tell me, what glorious leader will they swear loyalty to?" None. A Young Pioneer's loyalty is to themselves, their principles and conscience, their fellow Pioneers, their class and their community.

"How many months will they spend on the collective digging for beets?" None, but I can see many Young Pioneers involved in urban farming projects to help their communities and provide nutritious food.

"How many hours will they wait in toilet paper lines?" I suppose they might wait as long as you will the next time you're in such a line.

"Will you teach them to inform on their parents for 'Crimes against the Party'?" Since there is no "Party" that is overseeing the Young Pioneers, your question is irrelevant.

"What's the time-frame on splitting into factions over ideology and slaughtering each other in the streets?" Since no ideological requirements are a part of the Young Pioneer Oath or Code, I would say two weeks after never.

"How long will your list of banned and censored reading, music and religious materials be?" A Young Pioneer is encouraged to keep his or herself aware, alert and informed, and that includes reading and studying materials he or she may disagree with. Moreover, while the Young Pioneers welcomes young people who are atheists, those who hold personal religious beliefs are also welcome, just as those who are heterosexual are welcome.

"Onward comrades! The blood of the Kulaks will run in the streets!" Personally, I think you're just mad because you didn't think of this first.

[proteus_lives]

25. You want an alternative that is politically agreeable to you.

Loyalty to class? So what, Rich kids vs. the poor kids? Middle-class vs. the upper-middle class? Latino poor vs. middle class blacks?

That part right there means you wish to install a political philosophy. I don't think you want a true alternative to the boy scouts.

And the fact the choice of the name kills the concept on the spot. March on comrade, very few will buy into it.

[MSchreader]

30. A "true alternative" to the Boy Scouts?

Given what the Boy Scouts teaches its members, I would say that we would be the only organization that could claim to be a "true alternative" to them.

But you and I both know it's not about that. It's not so much about me being a communist, either. It's about those three little words: "loyalty to class".

It's clear in your posts, not just in this thread but throughout DU, how much disdain you have for working people. I don't know if it's merely the self-loathing that some workers who foolishly buy into the "middle class" mythos have or if it comes from a genuine anti-working class arrogance and hatred brought about by an upbringing in a world of managers, bureaucrats and professionals. Personally, I don't care. You have your side and we have ours.

You can scream about "class warfare" all you want (and, let's face it, that is what you're screaming about). I simply note that it's only called "class warfare" when we begin to organize to fight back.

[proteus_lives]

36. You just want a youth base to spread your political philosophy.

I'd respect you more if you would just admit it.

Disdain? You're the one with disdain my friend.

Working people? I've been one of those since I was 17 and I got my first job. I have three right now. I worked a seven-hour shift tonight. I'm also a college graduate who has read quite a bit of history. I've read enough and experienced realize that change and progress come from all classes.

Communism and "class loyalty" make me laugh. Because the future is a mixture of socialism and capitalism. I'm not arrogant enough to claim to know what that will exactly look like.

"Personally, I don't care. You have your side and we have ours." That's what makes you so ridiculous. Your thinking is so last century. No compromise and so orthodox.

"I don't know if it's merely the self-loathing that some workers who foolishly buy into the "middle class" mythos have or if it comes from a genuine anti-working class arrogance and hatred brought about by an upbringing in a world of managers, bureaucrats and professionals."

Such tired rhetoric. I was raised by a professional, a man who built his company from the ground up and worked day and night for 30 years. He taught me the value of hard work.

So tell me Mr. Disdain, how much hard work do you do? Can't be much since you're taking a piss on so many hard workers. You know, the managers, the professionals. Point me towards the party dialectic that explains why they're so evil.

[rug]

38. "I was raised by a professional, a man who built his company from the ground up"

Well, there you go.

Indoctrination of the young is a terrible thing.

[proteus_lives]

53. What about your own indoctrination?

Who taught you that "hard work is for suckers"?

Who taught you that you should given everything?

[Ken Burch]

60. He didn't say people should be "given everything"

The idea is, you shouldn't have to struggle just to hold your ground. Dignity comes from being able to put your energies towards positive things, towards creativity and self-expression, not just on "getting that damn report to me by the end of the day or you're out on your butt!"

Working people create the wealth. They deserve just as much respect as your class does.

[proteus_lives]

67. My class? Please tell me what my class is.

I'd really like to know.

Man, there are a lot people on this thread determined to separate and force people into boxes.

When hard work become a curse word?

"Working people create the wealth" I agree with that but the OP and his comrades are leaving a lot of the working people out of the equation with their ideas of political "class". You think professionals and business people aren't workers? I don't shovel coal every day so I'm not a working man?

Like I said earlier, last century-thinking. It's a dead end.

[Ken Burch]

71. Professionals work. Fine.

They aren't, however, entitled to act as if they are superior to everyone else who does.

[proteus_lives]

73. I'm not the one pretending to be superior to anyone.

That's the OP's ambition.

I respect anyone who works hard.

[Ken Burch]

59. Oooohhh....somebody's scared of the proles!

Somebody can't handle it when someone else forgets "his place".

And somebody still doesn't get it that the people who worked for his dad had just as much to do with building that company as daddums himself did.

Poor widdle Thurston Howell the Fourth!

[proteus_lives]

68. That's pathetic.

:rofl:

Another latte-revolutionary.

You wouldn't know hard work if jumped up and bit you in ass.

My father built something, created jobs and worked for 30 years at it. One day of his work would break you.

BTW, I don't believe you're "prole" either.

[Ken Burch]

70. I work 84 hour weeks

seven days a week, 12 hours a day(week-on, week-off schedule).

Don't tell me I don't know hard work, bozo.

[proteus_lives]

74. Good for you. I hope you enjoy what you do.

I work my ass off as well.

We should all respect people who work hard and don't piss on their neighbors/employees/friends/fellow humans. No matter that their job or "class" is.

[MSchreader]

75. You were raised by a business owner, which makes you

Someone who, unsurprisingly, spits on those who made the wealth of this society. If he really did teach you the value of hard work, then I would expect you would understand that when those of us who spend our entire lives doing hard work want to take a little pride in what we do, and want to instill that in our kids, we bristle a little when someone like you then tries to accuse of "class warfare".

I started working when I was 12, putting together little bolts and nuts together for cars in a small shop in the city where I was born. When I graduated high school, I worked two jobs while attending community college. When the money ran out for college (because I was paying rent & utilities, plus paying for school), I dropped out and kept working. I moved to Detroit when I was 20 and started working full-time jobs, the last one being as a railroad worker on the midnight shift.

I was laid off in 2006 from that job, partly because they discovered my politics (they were getting ready to negotiate a new union contract, and I had already organized one opposition within the union that had been strong enough to register the first rejection of a tentative contract by that local in its 30-year existence) and partly because they needed me off of their health insurance (I had been diagnosed with cancer in 2001 and went through chemotherapy ... and kept working full-time, including a two-month stint in Charleston, SC, while undergoing treatment).

In June 2008 I was diagnosed with Stage IV congestive heart failure (a result of the choice of chemo treatment I was given, which was the only one the insurance company would pay for even though they knew the side effects ... but never told me) and ischemic cardiomyopathy (that's where your heart muscles slowly die off and are replaced by scar tissue), as well as diabetes type II with insulin resistance, hypertension (my personal record is 220/128 -- can you beat that?) and a host of other related illnesses that have since qualified me for Social Security disability (a whopping $924 a month!).

I consider that I sacrificed my body to the industrial lords, since the cancer that I got in 2001 (Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma in the lymph lining of my stomach) came from breathing in both hazardous chemicals leaking from tanks in the railroad yard and diesel fumes from the engines that ran day and night around me. And yet, I continued to work full time, putting all of my strength into it.

These days, I volunteer my time and energy (what little there is of it) to my party and to the Workers' International Industrial Union. I also help out my wife, who is a part-time teacher at a local community college and is herself disabled (multiple ruptured discs in her back, degenerative arthritis, multiple sclerosis, etc.), but who nonetheless helped to successfully organize the first union for part-time instructors at her school. She was denied Social Security disability, so she went back to work in spite of the problems.

Together we live on an income of $1,932 a month (sometimes a little more, when the state is willing to give her supplements unemployment), even though she has a Master's Degree in sociology.

So, yeah, you're welcome to call me Mr. Disdain and think me hostile. I've earned the right to be hostile and exercise a measure of disdain. Your "hard working" managers and professionals have given me a death sentence.

I will not live to see it, but someone, someday, will return the favor.

[proteus_lives]

76. Showing your true colors.

"Your "hard working" managers and professionals have given me a death sentence.

I will not live to see it, but someone, someday, will return the favor."

Bigotry, generalizations and hopes for violence. It's all politics and class with you. I'd be surprised if you considered the human factor.

I'm sorry about the illnesses you and your wife have. And I applaud your union work.

My father (that hateful "owner") also suffers from ruptured disc's in his back and is 100% disabled from that and war injuries from Vietnam. His constant interaction with doctors and hospitals and the VA have led him to be a firm believer in health care reform and public support. How surprising for a capitalist overlord! His employees always loved him because he never gave them a task he wouldn't or couldn't do himself. He led by example for them and for me. He taught me about hard work, debt, the traps that exist in the world created by people, banks and the government.

He stepped off the plane from 'nam with fifty bucks in his bucket and barely a high school education. But he discovered what he was good at and worked hard to become a success. He taught me to keep my word and not screw people over. So, no I don't spit on hard-workers. That would be like spitting on myself.

Do you think he burst from the womb as a "business owner"? No, that was the result of years of hard work. He started at the same line the rest of us did.

Your rhetoric falls apart at the human level. That's my problem with your class-aligned youth organization. You don't see people, you just see labels and occupations.

[MSchreader]

77. Yes, I am -- my color is red

I am personally glad you have the luxury of leading a humane life. It affirms for me that it is still possible in this society. I would like that for the millions of working people who are in a position similar to mine, but are denied such liberty so that people in a position similar to yours may prosper.

I am a product of an inhumane world -- a world that tells me from birth that I am less than a person because my place is to work, and only to work. So, yes, the "human factor" is not as central to me, since I have yet to be fully treated as a human being by this society. I am merely "help" (as in "help wanted"), or a sequence of numbers and events. I am called "Mister" out of social custom, not respect. And I am expendable -- more easily replaceable than the machines I use. At my last job, an ink pen was worth more than the life and well being of one of my co-workers.

That's the world that the bosses, managers and professionals made for me. If I fail to consider the "human factor", it is because I am not considered human. My ability to work is a commodity, bought and sold by the hour, and traded back and forth among your "hard working" managers like so many baseball cards; my body and mind are merely the vehicles for delivering that ability to work to and from the point of production, and are "entitled" to nothing save the bare minimum it takes to keep that body moving to and from the point of production.

What humanity I have been able to preserve through all this I save for my brother and sister workers. For if anyone deserves that modicum of humane compassion, generosity, love and affection, it is they. If I am indeed bigoted, it is because I am protective of my people.

I am a classist, a partisan of my class; I make no bones about it. But, like your father, I did not "burst from the womb" that way. No, that was the result of a lifetime (my lifetime) of hard work on the part of your "hard working" managers and professionals. Every one of them did their part. People like me are not born, we're made.

Don't get me wrong, though. I do not doubt for one second that you or your father are nice people with good intentions. But you know as well as I do what is paved with good intentions.

I am not someone who holds grudges or lives on vitriol -- I don't have that luxury any more. Indeed, if you are ever in Detroit, I'd probably invite you out for a beer (for you, anyway; I can't really drink any more). It's not about being "good" or "bad" for me; it's about where you stand in the relations of society that matter to me. It is about class and politics, I freely admit that. But I don't make or break friendships on that basis. I have friends from different classes and family with very different politics (my parents, as a matter of fact, are teabaggers -- can you imagine what my holidays are like?!).

I am 37 years old. I will likely be dead before I am 40, and it is because the bosses, managers and professionals in my life made decisions that condemned me to this existence. Their "business decisions" have cost me the rest of my life. I consider that to be the height of terrorism and violence ... no different than if they put a gun to my head and pulled the trigger or set off a bomb in my home. If I express my hope that what has been done to me is returned on those who have given me my death sentence, it is not out of a desire for violence, but out of a sense of justice.

If I have a goal in relation to the Young Pioneers, it is that the young people who are involved learn to preserve their humanity in the face of an inhumane world and direct it toward positive, constructive tasks that benefit their class and community -- that they learn they are not simply "help" or a commodity, but that they can be thinkers, leaders and builders of a new humane and just world. While we have to do these things ourselves, without outside interference, it is not for ourselves alone that we do them.

So, yes, I am showing my true colors here (along with a lot of other things). My color is red -- the color of human progress, social justice and a new world.

[proteus_lives]

78. I wish the best of luck with your illnesses.

We may disagree on certain political issues and viewpoints but I wish no harm on you or yours. If you were in Indiana I'd invite you out for a evening of drinks and political discussion.

[readmoreoften]

55. Apparently, you don't know Lenin from Stalin.

Not unlike the blood of Iraqis in the street. Or the incarceration rates in the US, which are even higher than under Stalin.

[proteus_lives]

69. Maybe we should just copy Lenin and Stalin.

Inside of imprisoning people, we'll just shoot them or starve their families to death, that always worked for Lenin and Stalin.

[cali]

6. why call it Young Pioneers if you don't really want it to be known

chiefly as a communist/indoctrination organization? I have a friend who ran fantastic outdoor adventuring groups for kids (in fact he built a whole wonderful center around it) and he didn't include any politics aside from environmental issues. That was the focus of the groups.

[Lasher]

8. I was thinking it would be better to call it the Hitler Youth.

Members could learn about different and alternative political viewpoints but they would not be required to accept or adhere to them.

[MSchreader]

10. That's pretty sick

Perhaps you should aim your rapier-like wit in another direction?

[FBaggins]

40. Absolutely right.

Why confuse one evil of the 20th centurt with another? Just call them Young Pioneers.

At least it would avoid the confusion.

[Lasher]

48. Are you aware this movement currently exists in the People's Republic of China?

There it's called The Young Pioneers of China. In North Korea it's called The Young Pioneer Corps. In Vietnam it's known as the Ho Chi Minh Young Pioneers.

If this new group in the US were to be patterned after these and others, and include teaching of communist principles, then you would be correct. Otherwise such an unfortunate choice for a name would surely result in confusion and controversy.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MSchreader]

32. Some people struggle with history

As much as the teabaggers do.

[Lasher]

47. LOL

If I had an enlightened grasp of history I'll bet I could come up with great ideas just like you have.

[Ken Burch]

61. If you had any real grasp of history you'd know there's no excuse

for comparing the Young Pioneers to the Hitler Youth. Millions of people who started in the Young Pioneers died FIGHTING the Nazis. They deserve your respect.

[Lasher]

63. So what? Stalin fought Hitler, does that make him a saint?

I'm not surprised you are so slow to catch on to something so obvious. I'll spell it out for you: Both were movements for political indoctrination of young people. Both exploited these youths to perpetuate what time has shown to be failed ideologies. And now you and some others in this thread think it's a good idea to recruit youngsters into a movement in the US that would surely subject them to ridicule and scorn, just so you can sell your bullshit that no thinking adult would buy. That's sinister and disgusting.

[Ken Burch]

64. Stalin was no saint, he was a total bastard. And I'm neither a Stalinist nor a communist

(and the group the OP is a member of isn't even "Leninist", for the record.)

The distinction you are missing is that Naziism was never about anything but hatred and violence. Communism, with its horrible flaws, was at least about building a better world. Therefore, it is morally obscene to compare the Young Pioneers with the Hitler Youth.

You also forget that most "anticommunists" in Europe in the 1930's(other than the social democrats, of course) were at least tacit allies of Hitler until 1938 or 1939, and are thus complicit in all that he did. And that Hitler actually invented the phrase "bulwark against communism" to describe himself.

What the group the OP proposes would teach, from what I can see, is socialist values...not veneration of the now-permanently extinct Soviet Union. The best values of socialism(equality, human solidarity, support for the liberation of all people from oppression)are values I'd like all young people exposed to. They are damn sure better values than evangelicalism-meets-Ayn Rand-values that kids get taught in this country today.

[Lasher]

65. I don't care what you are.

You are defending an idea set forth in the OP, which is despicable. His selection of the Young Pioneers label was surely not accidental as he has pretended.

Notwithstanding your clairvoyant awareness of what I know and what I have forgotten, you lost me when you weighed in to support recruitment of our youths into something that is supposed to be a fun and learning experience, just so extremists can beat their political drums. Shame on you.

[MSchreader]

9. Two reasons

1. The Young Pioneer name, while it originally had the reputation of being appended to the "official Communist" movement, has in the last few decades come to encompass non-communist currents. Moreover, when you get outside of the politically wonky corners of society, the name has no connotation attached to it here.

2. To be honest, so many of the other good names were already taken.

I should also say that, apart from the name Young Pioneers, what we're putting together bears no real resemblance to the other groups around the world that use the name. Honestly, most of our materials are based on the Boy Scouts, and I would not be surprised if our group was more mistaken for them than for a Young Pioneer organization from somewhere like Cuba or China.

[cali]

11. Well, if I were you, I'd come up with a name that has no associations

whatsoever. That will give you a freedom and latitude that you won't have if you're using the name of an organization strongly linked to one ideology.

Come up with something new that reflects the values you want to instill in young people.

[MSchreader]

12. Hey, if you have a good idea, please share it

Like I said, we sorta settled on this.

We use a compass rose as our logo (don't want to change that), and the different steps (like ranks) are: Pioneer, Runner, Escort, Monitor, Navigator, Trailblazer and Lodestar. If those things spark any moments of creativity for a name, let me know.

[cali]

14. How about Trailblazers?

It embodies leadership and adventure.

[MSchreader]

21. The name is already taken in the U.S.

We don't want to confuse people.

[Ken Burch]

13. Interestingly enough "Young Pioneers" was the name

of the youth group in the Presbyterian congregation I attended as a youth.

What you're doing is actually a good idea(particularly if you revived the "socialist summer camp" tradition, which gave a lot of young people in the 1940's and 50's a good set of progressive values)but the name might be a problem.

Most people here, if they remember that name, think of stuff like this:



And, while the outfits DID have a certain flair, that will immediately create some negative associations in the minds of people who might be otherwise be interested.

I'd consider sometning else as a name.

The idea is good, though.

[JVS]

17. I'd leave the name as Pioneers. If a scouting group's name doesn't reveal some kind of agenda....

people are just going to assume that the organization is set up with the goal of molesting kids

[Ken Burch]

18. "Radical Youth" might be a good alternative

"Red Squad"(which would reverse the OLD meaning of that term)could have some ironic possibilities.

[MSchreader]

22. Radical Youth is taken

Again, this is the problem we kept running into.

[JVS]

23. Stick with Young Pioneers. It will keep away the idiots who will be "shocked, SHOCKED" to find...

out that the people organizing this are Socialists.

[Ken Burch]

27. "Dream Patrol" "World Builders" "The Next Wave"

"New Eyes". "Reclaimers". "Amandla!"

Don't know if any of those might help.

Or...let any young people who are interested come up with their own name.

[MSchreader]

33. The members will have the right to change the name if they wish

I'm sure they will have some similarly creative names, too.

[VenusRising]

15. Adventure Scouts?

http://www.adventurescoutsusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=308&Itemid=2

[MSchreader]

20. "We encourage our Scouts to embrace a spiritual approach to life."

-- From the Venture Scouts website

Like I said above, we would welcome non-religious and atheist members into the organization.

[VenusRising]

29. Spiritual does not refer to religion.

Also from the site...

Any activity is spiritual which opens an individual's eyes to the position he, as a human being, occupies in the universe. The following are among the attributes a spiritually aware Scout has: sensitivity, reflective awareness, a loving nature, sense of self, self identity, self worth, and self esteem. Our Scout Programs encourage our Scouts to live happy, fulfilled, and worthwhile lives emphasizing development of the whole person.

A spiritual approach to life is living life to the fullest with wonder and awe every moment.



Nothing religious there at all, imo.

[MSchreader]

34. I don't know many spiritual atheists

I suppose they're out there, but we do want to be accommodating for full-on non-believers.

[olegramps]

45. How about: Dominionists. It has a nice ring to it.

[Ken Burch]

62. Uh no...that's used for those crazy "Christian" wackos

The ones who think we should be stoning gay people.

[Hekate]

16. I agree with Cali and KenBurch that the idea is excellent but the name needs changing...

YP would be fine except for some rather significant historical baggage. I'm sorry I have no alternative name to offer you, but I applaud the notion of having an alternative to Boy Scouts.

BTW--wow, some people can be jerks here.

Hekate

[MSchreader]

35. A final thought on the name before I get some sleep

If the name is the only real sticking point you have with this, I wonder why not get involved and work with us to change its connotation -- to toss out the bad baggage and craft a new reputation and meaning? I mean, all of you seek to craft other names, terms and labels into something more positive than how the rest of the public sees them all the time. Why not this? If you think the idea is sound, then work with us to make the Young Pioneers mean something more than its historical baggage.

I'll check in on this thread tomorrow. Hopefully, those who like nothing more than to take a dump on the floor (you know who you are!) will refrain from doing so.

[cali]

37. why tie yourself to the past? why not just start anew? you seem unreasonably

stuck in the past and on that name. I think that's a real shame.

[eilen]

41. Why not just have one group

and call them the second name you came up with-- The Wayfarers? Initially I didn't think anything of "The Pioneers" because I associated with the American pioneers. But I'm XGen and undereducated despite all the reading I do. Or something along the lines of "Makers." I love Make magazine and they have what's called a Maker's Faire every year showing innovation and invention of the stuff they have made using old fashioned elbow grease and technology.

[olegramps]

46. Don't pour new wine into old skins.

[FBaggins]

39. That's not an alternative to Scouts.

Many people ARE looking for such an alternative. Something that would be "scouts" without a couple social positions that make the scouts unacceptable to many.

This isn't it... and not just because of the name. Scouts brings kids of different classes together. They wear one uniform that isn't flashier for kids from wealthy families than it is from working families. When they go camping they eat the same food and make the same hikes and carry the same amount of gear.

But you have two organizations split by class (when you purport to be a member of a political movement intent on destroying class distinctions). One wonders how you would get any of the parents from non-working-class families to send their kids to Wayfarers. Maybe we can have those kids serving hot dogs to the rest of us so they can learn their place?

IOW.. this isn't "scouts without homophobia"... it's an entirely different program.

Back to the naming problem though... you point out that all these other names are taken and it might cause confusion... well Young Pioneers is taken too. Being confused with those groups doesn't seem to concern you.

[aikoaiko]

42. Pioneering Youths.

I too think the baggage of Young Pioneers is insurmountable to all except the very small group.

Pioneering Scouts, maybe, since you're borrowing a lot from BSA.

[Shagbark Hickory]

43. You had me up til "class-based". Maybe I misunderstood but as an egalitarian, I believe the time for

doing away with classes has come.

Again, maybe I misunderstood.

[readmoreoften]

54. Yes, the OP wants to do away with classes. But that happens in a revolution, not in scouting.

Until then, the OP is looking for a scouting organization that instills a sense of worker-empowerment in working-class kids: values like solidarity, creativity in work, optimism, finding points of similarity in diversity, etc.

[MSchreader]

58. OMFG! THANK YOU!!!!!!

Someone really gets it!

[StarfarerBill]

44. Young Adventurers? Young Trailblazers? New Pioneers? People's Scouts?

Just throwing some synthesized ideas out there to see if any stick.

I like your idea of a working-class, non-gender-segregated scouting organization, though.

[MSchreader]

50. The first two are taken

Which is one of the problems we ran into.

New Pioneer is possible, as would be People's Scouts. Pioneer Scouts, a melding of the two, is not a bad idea, either.

[StarfarerBill]

52. I guess I should have tried looking them up, first.

"Pioneer Scouts"...good idea, actually. :)

[TexasObserver]

49. Boy Scouts is a rightwing religious organization. Important to label them as such.

I always found good programs for my kids at the YMCA, with minimal attempts at indoctrination, and usually a very open attitude about multiculturalism.

[Ken Burch]

51. And the Boy Scouts were also about preparing young men for a life of militarism

Getting them used to wearing uniforms, establishing vaguely military forms of organization and, of course, teaching them to salute.

[readmoreoften]

56. Welcome.

You must have incredible patience.

[Odin2005]

57. IMO scouting is a disturbingly totalitiarian societal institution, period.

If I have kids I want to teach them to think for themselves, not to be dutiful sheep.

[WolverineDG]

66. Well, I give you kudos for at least wanting to do something

instead of just sitting around moaning about the Boy Scouts. Even if your group will be just as "political" as you allege the Boy Scouts to be & perhaps more divisive, what with separating working class kids from "non" working class kids & all. Maybe I was in some weird, rogue Girl Scout organization, but the "rich" girls were never separated from the "poor" girls, & we all chipped in so that everyone could go on camping & field trips.

dg

[RushIsRot]

72. Here are a few suggestions for your group which I do not believe are taken:

Youthful Searchers

Youthful Seekers

Young Seekers

Lore Corps

Perhaps these will get your creative juices flowing in another direction.

[Scout]

79. our Girl Scout troop had boys as members....

and the Girl Scouts don't discriminate.