Are wealth and success the result of "hard work" or just plain luck?

[Ken Burch]

[leftstreet]

1. If you popped out of Babs Bush's womb your chances are good

otherwise, not so much

[provis99]

2. the correct answer is: having the right connections.

Bush neither worked hard, nor even made enough effort to have "luck".

[LibDemAlways]

19. I agree with you. It truly isn't so much what you know. It's

generally who you know that makes a difference. Bush is a prime example. If he was George Smith, he'd be lucky to have landed a job as a Wal-Mart Greeter. George Bush Jr., dumbshit supreme, gets elevated to the US Presidency. It's astounding.

[anonymous171]

3. I'd reckon a worker at a steel mill works harder than most hedge fund managers

Yet he gets paid a fraction of their enormous salaries. Wealth is determine by birth.

[WCGreen]

15. And most Hedge Fund Managers will fail spectacularly within five years...

[GreenStormCloud]

21. Muscles are cheap, brains are expensive. N/T

[readmoreoften]

25. And most Hedge Fund Managers work less than young college professors. So what's your excuse now?

Honest work isn't compensated and con artists who grease the wheel get some grease in return. "Smart" has nothing to do with it.

[pnwmom]

47. How do we know how hard hedge fund managers work?

I'll admit to not having any idea.

[Hippo_Tron]

62. They actually work pretty hard to get to that point

Not saying anything about the nobility of the profession, but entry level analysts at an investment bank work ridiculous hours.

[pnwmom]

77. That's what I'd heard, too. n/t

[fasttense]

37. Brains aren't all that expensive.

Just ask an Indian (from India) who writes code for microsoft. Or an assistant professor at any state university. No, brains are pretty cheap and so is muscle. But being at the right place, going into the right job, being born into the right family, having the right relatives, and knowing the right people, that's mostly luck. And lucky people are very expensive.

[Ken Burch]

58. Some people can get brains for almost no cost

[GreenStormCloud]

61. On the Indian economy, Indian brains are much more expensive than Indian muscle.

I do not deny that luck play a role, but it is not the only role. It takes work and smarts to succeed.

[murdoch]

4. Birth

Look at the Forbes 400 richest people. Half of the people are heirs. To be considered a non-heir, you have to be in the half that inherited less than $600 million.

So Warren Buffett, whose family owned a chain of stores and whose father was a Congressman who sent him to Columbia is "self-made". As is Bill Gates III, whose father and father's father were million prominent Seattle lawyers, and whose mother sat on the United Way board with the CEO of IBM (and as anyone who knows the story, Microsoft got rich piggybacking on IBM). Note that these are the "self-made" portion of the list.

Surprising that hard work makes the poll option but this doesn't.

[NoUsername]

26. Exactly.

Read "Wealth and Democracy: A Political History of the American Rich" by Kevin Phillips and you will learn that this is something that goes back to the beginning of this country.

The laws are set up to protect the rich at the expense of everyone else. Always have been, always will be. Well, at least until people get pissed enough to do something about it anyway.

But for that to happen, they'd have to recognize there IS a problem. And as long as the M$M doesn't TELL them it's a problem, the likelihood of that happening is pretty much nil.

[cowcommander]

5. Depends, how do you define wealth?

Earning more than $100K? Or more than $1 million?

[Ken Burch]

16. I'd define it as "the bank balance necessary to induce a superiority complex"

n/t.

[OHdem10]

6. A combination: Hard work is required, Some talent or skills,

Luck is a factor. In some cases luck comes in the form
of being born into a wealthy family. I have more than
once heard Jay Rockefeller say by luck I was born Jay
Rockefeller --I could have been born into other circumstances.

Being in right place at the right time--forces came together
for me is another explanation I often hear.

You still have to be focused and work very hard suffer some
grueling hours even when luck breaks your way.

[proud patriot]

7. It's all luck ... we all work hard

I provide quality care for disabled children so I'm not rich
monetarily but I'm rich in other ways.

[LoZoccolo]

8. The harder you work, the luckier you get.

There have been studies of the phenomenon that people call "luck", and it's shaping up that people who seem to be "lucky" often have habits that aren't as self-defeating as "unlucky" people.

Hard work might not pay off, but thinking everybody has what they have through "luck" and failing to take true responsibility will definately keep you stagnant.

[Mudoria]

34. +1

[Lorien]

9. Other; social I.Q, creativity, adaptability, good timing, great connections,

hard work (sometimes) and yes, luck. Often a willingness to sink to new depths helps, as I've witnessed firsthand.

[Ex Lurker]

12. In the immortal words of JR Ewing

"once you lose your integrity, the rest is easy."

[PufPuf23]

73. So true (and I was not a Dallas fan)

The only time I ever watched a full episode was 1981 in Pau, France; French subtitled when visiting French 2nd cousins.

[Echo In Light]

45. Good points. And this ...

"If they have the capacity to think freely and understand these types of things, they're going to be kept out by a very complicated filtering system -- which actually starts in kindergarten, I think. In fact, the whole educational and professional training system is a very elaborate filter, which just weeds out people who are too independent, and who don't know how to be submissive, and so on -- because they're dysfunctional to the institutions." ~ Noam Chomsky

[valerief]

10. Mostly the lucky gene pool. nt

[baldguy]

11. Luck has nothing to do with it.

Most people work hard, play by the rules, do everything they're supposed to do to make it - and they still get screwed.

[dysfunctional press]

13. your post contradicts your subject line...

luck definitely plays a part- and an even bigger part for some than others.

the people who work hard, by the rules, and still get screwed- luck isn't an issue- except for bad luck.
the people who work equally hard(or not at all) and still succeed, would seem to have some luck on their side.

[cabluedem]

29. That is luck. Bad luck. nt

[baldguy]

39. When it happens on a regular, predictable basis - it's not luck.

Las Vegas casinos always make a profit, just like the people that own this country will always make a profit. And 99% of the people in this country don't own it.

[WCGreen]

14. Read the book Fooled by Randomness.....

[regnaD kciN]

17. Other: A combination of everything...

People who say that success isn't due to talent or hard work are fooling themselves.

People who say that success is only due to talent or hard work are fooling themselves.

People who say that success is only due to luck are fooling themselves.

People who say that success has nothing to do with luck are fooling themselves.

In short, you can have all the talent and determination in the world but, without luck, you'll get nowhere. And you can have all the luck in the world but, without talent and determination, you'll get nowhere.

[Ken Burch]

18. So, pretty much EVERYBODY is fooling themselves?

n/t.

[LibDemAlways]

22. Unless your name is George W. Bush. Then all you need is

wealthy, influential parents. In some cases an individual can be a lazy, untalented dumbass....and can still become President.

[GreenStormCloud]

20. It is a mix of luck, work, and smarts, and it takes all three.

Yes, one can be born wealthy. But to keep the wealth requires some smarts and work. Otherwise, the wealth is lost.

I have a cousin who started with little and is wealthy now. He made it honestly, with hard work that was also smart work.

Most people will not get wealthy for the same reason that most people can't be above average. The math won't allow it.

[LooseWilly]

23. I said luck... but mostly because it seems to take luck for one's hard work to be noticed.

Without the luck to be in the right place at the right time (or just plain have the right connections), hard work will just make you tired.

On the other hand... if luck breaks your way but you haven't done the hard work to be ready... then that luck will just keep on moving.

So it's both... but luck is the "first gate".

(Of course... with enough luck, I suppose you can actually "skate by"... but the GWB "success built upon a smoking pile of failures" model is absurdly unlikely... though obviously possible.)

[readmoreoften]

24. Usually a combination of birthright, a little luck, and some work. But less work than

working two minimum wage jobs, supporting a kid, and giving up all your dreams and big ideas because mommy and daddy or Uncle Stevie can't fund them.

[indievoter]

27. How about all of the above

A vast number of what we would consider wealthy and/or successful individuals aren't born into it. Only a true pessimist would believe so. Many people including myself, President Obama, and the Pakistani Dr. I'm very good friends with were all poor or impoverished to some degree as children but are now what would be considered wealthy and successful people. And I can honestly say we all got there by hard work and determination more so than any other factor. Luck good or bad can play some role but I'm a true believer in making your own luck for the most part. Thats not to say that "bad luck" doesn't hold some people back at times because it certainly can happen but how you get back up I think after determines your success in moving forward.

Besides I would think its not a matter of how you became wealthy or successful that is most important. But what you do with that wealth and/or success that matters.

[Fading Captain]

28. Stupid fucking either/or question

It's a whole slew of factors.
People want to bag on rich people for being successful. It's stupid.

I just want to tax them. Because they can afford it. And they've benefited most, obviously, from America's bounty.

[Jamastiene]

30. Other: It's proabably a little bit of both. n/t

[notesdev]

31. There was a time when I'd say "hard work" without question

Then came the corporate state. Now it just seems to be a matter of who you know and how much ass you are willing to kiss for your 30 pieces of silver.

[MSchreader]

32. It's not what you know, but who you know

And how much money they're willing to loan you.

[Ichingcarpenter]

42. George Bush

proof positive on that one.

I didn't like the choices on the poll

[SergeStorms]

33. Those children that choose their parents well.........

seem to have a leg up on everyone else later in life. Take the Walton family..................please!

Most wealthy, successful people have had the benefit of wealthy successful parents. There are a few exceptions to that rule, but for the most part, I think it's true.

[gleaner]

35. At this point .....

with all of the power players locked into position, I would have to say luck. There was a time when you could get rich from hard work and innovation, but I think that time is over.

All hard work gets you now is stress and an early death. The people who are already rich get everything else. And I still want my country back.

[proteus_lives]

36. It's both hard work and luck.

My father built is his business from the ground up and became a very successful man. He worked like a ox for 30 years over it. He's the first to say that "right time and place" are part of it. But you go nowhere in life without hard work. My dad was always the first one in the office and the last one to leave. He took the lucky and unlucky moments in life and worked like hell to either take advantage of them or change them. And it worked more often then not.

[pnwmom]

38. Yes, and also

watching every penny.

[lonestarnot]

40. flow from your pocket to mine.

[proteus_lives]

60. Exactly.

My dad taught me a simple philosophy. "No debt". That's why him and my mom have done so well in their old age. They don't owe a penny to anyone. When I was a kid, I'd ask for five bucks and he'd challenge me, "Why do you need five bucks?" And if I could convince him why I needed it, I would be given a series of tasks to fulfill for that money. Man, I hated that when I was kid but as a man I treasure it.

He taught me about hard work, credit and debt and those lessons are the reason I'm successful in my way. I'm not a rich man and I don't think I'll ever be one but I'm successful because I don't owe, I don't abuse credit and I watch every penny. Doesn't make me miser it just means that that my focus is in other places.

[pnwmom]

78. The frugal living people of today have discovered something

the older generation knew all along. The less you need, the better off you are, at least in terms of peace of mind.

[tonysam]

56. A LOT of people work hard and never make it. A lot of people

worked in self-employment and had to go out of business.

Hard work isn't everything. My dad worked probably as hard or harder than your dad, and he did it with one arm missing. He did well, but he wasn't rich.

In fact, in the business world connections are EVERYTHING. I discovered that the less work a person does, the more money he or she makes. The hard workers are always at the bottom.

Spending a lot of hours on the job isn't necessarily "work." Try doing physical labor for years and years on end, or putting up with assholes in administration on top of everything else in course of one's job, as teachers do every day. Then you will know what "hard work" is.

Horatio Alger is a LIE, and one of the most destructive lies out there.

[proteus_lives]

64. Connections are very important.

But that doesn't invalidate hard work. What good is a connection if you're not willing to work hard and take advantage of it?

"I discovered that the less work a person does, the more money he or she makes. The hard workers are always at the bottom."

Not always. My father was an owner, he made his money but he never stopped working. As the boss he didn't need to work from 7am to 7pm every night but he did. He didn't need to drive a hundred miles for meetings and deals but he did. And the reason that some people are at the bottom is because they want to be there. Offices, factories and businesses are filled with people who only do the bare minimum.

I believe the truth is in the middle. You can be given a golden goose but that goose is going to rot if you're not willing to work for it.

I work in a field where I go to meet people, hand out my card and say "Hey if you need something done, I'll do it." And my friends and colleagues in the same field reference me to clients and say "Hey call or e-mail this guy, he'll be able to help you." But if I wasn't willing to do the work when it came my way, then what good are my connections?

[DailyGrind51]

41. If your rich dad can send you to Harvard or Yale and hand you a business when you graduate.

[Echo In Light]

43. Happenstance - born into families who, by default, tailor their children's lives accordingly

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

44. You only need to ask yourself these two questions:

Do you know of anybody who attained wealth and success with hard work and no luck?

Do you know of anybody who attained wealth and success with luck and no hard work?

The answer is clear.

[NNN0LHI]

46. Yep some people didn't use the right lucky charms

If they'd have just used the correct lucky charms they could have changed their luck and everything would have been double plus good.

Don

[Nikia]

48. Like a lot of other things it isn't one or the other

With wealth and success though, it is sort of like a marathon in which people get to start at different places along the route. Someone who starts at the normal beginning is going to have a harder time of catching someone who starts 20 miles in. There is definitely luck in oppurtunities also whether it is in investing, starting and running ones own business, or getting a good job that allows career growth.

[Waiting For Everyman]

49. Other: in most cases, lack of ethics and connections with the same.

Most people who are wealthy are doing something illegal, or something that should be illegal. There are exceptions, but that's my observation from 60 years of living. Ethics are the most expensive thing in this world. But I'd rather have that, than be one of the "haves".

I wouldn't be a shark for all the tea in China (as the saying goes). They are not heroes to me, they are failures.

[FLAprogressive]

50. usually luck; occasionally hard work. but those feel-good "pulling yourself up by the bootstraps"

stories happen far less often than RW'ers think.

[Indenturedebtor]

51. Often they are the result of both

What really matters is that it's impossible to BE wealthy without poor people around.

[glen123098]

52. For most luck, for a few hard work.

But it seems most with wealth are just people born in the lucky sperm club.

[varelse]

53. Wealth and success are two completely different things

Success is ALWAYS the result of hard work and persistence - and success doesn't necessarily lead to financial wealth.

Wealth may be acquired in so many different ways that the most accurate thing that can be said of its accumulation is that hard work, talent, intelligence, dumb luck, greed, and even somewhat antisocial values are all likely factors, in varying combinations, for every wealthy individual.

Having read "All the money in the world: how the Forbes 400 make-- and spend--their fortunes", I have formed the opinion that there are a few common traits among the world's wealthiest "self made" multi-million(or billion)aires. One of these is a love of "the game" of making money. Getting and keeping fortune(s) is not just a job for these people - they love to take risks and they typically are always "on" even when on vacation. Some have tried, and failed, to retire. I'd say that hard work and high risk (thrill seeking) is THE common theme that runs through all of their life stories.

[Ken Burch]

59. Well, I was defining "success" in the narrow terms this society accepts for it

n/t.

[Odin2005]

54. The wealth of one's parents.

People that dogmatically assert that there is no social class on the US are lying.

[tonysam]

55. Luck is a big part, but let's not forget CONNECTIONS, which is

MORE important than luck. If you are born on third base to begin with, you are going to "succeed," or if you have the right connections.

In fact, the vast majority of the wealthy didn't get there by "hard work" or being Horatio Algers. They inherited their wealth, married it, were at the right place at the right time, or they won the lottery.

[old mark]

57. Most people with extreme wealth inherit it. Some actually do earn it, but

there is more luck involved than most of them care to admit, and these people tend to be smart or talented or both.

Hard work alone, without luck, will make you tired, not rich.


mark

[ecstatic]

63. Oprah said: Luck is when opportunity meets preparedness. Luck won't get

you anywhere if you're not prepared to take advantage of it.

[bridgit]

65. I'd rather have good luck than bad luck, but it seems clear enough: success favors the prepared

[Hippo_Tron]

66. You can get there in both ways

George Bush became wealthy and "successful" because he was born into the right family. Bill Clinton and Barack Obama were not born into wealthy families but they became successful because of their talent and their hard work. And yes luck had a certain amount to do with it in those cases too. But IMO there's a difference between being lucky in terms of born into the right family and lucky in terms of getting good opportunities. With Bush's luck you can be a complete dolt and be "successful". In Clinton and Obama's case you still needed to be talented or no amount of luck will help.

[GreenStormCloud]

67. What did the following people start with?

Ross Perot. Sam Walton. Bill Clinton. Barak Obama.

I could easily continue to name Americans who started with noting more than middle class, and some with less than middle class and have made it big.

[laylah]

68. My dad worked his ASS

off for Admiral in Galesburg, IL for 42 years. When he passed, they denied my Mom his pension, and the Teamsters gouged her also. He had been a Union man since the age of 9 when he laid upon the roof of the barn with a shotgun, in Missouri, as my Granddad held Teamster meetings, to fend off usupers.

He was a rich man and money poor.

[Ken Burch]

71. If he worked for them for 42 years, how could they possibly deny your mother his pension?

The people that did that to your mother are the kind of folks that actually SHOULD be lined up and shot come the revolution. Not that they would be, but they deserve it nonetheless.

The bastards!

[Pavulon]

69. Both. Sure being born into wealthy family helps

but there are plenty of people who grew up dirt poor who work in rewarding, well compensated jobs. Some are there because they were "lucky". Others may never experience that in life. Personality, risk taking, skill can help too.

[Sparkly]

70. Luck first, starting with being healthy in a stable country.

In many parts of the world, people don't have the luxury of choosing "hard work." They're just trying to survive famine and disease. I think it's easy to lose sight of how lucky we are just to be where we are.

Then there's the luck of our health.

The luck of our genes.

The luck of our environment -- home, community, schools.

And yes, there's the luck of who our parents are and what they have.

Finally, there are a lot of "wealthy, successful" people with hearts of stone, who got there and stayed there by stepping on others; and there are people scraping by as social workers, teachers, artists, community non-profit workers... So in a sense, when measuring wealth and success, it may be a matter of "luck" whether one does or doesn't have a social conscience, as well.

[Swamp Rat]

72. chance

[cali]

74. not a very good poll, ken.

for some people it's essentially hard work and smarts. For others it's that and good luck. For some it's just luck.

[JackRiddler]

75. Usual factors for being/getting rich include birth, luck, timing and ruthlessness.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

76. Depends

Are we talking first generation or second generation? :shrug:

First generation wealth & success could rightly be the result of heard work and/or luck. Of course, how you obtain it is another matter. Through good, hard, clean, and honest work? Or through manipulation, greed, exploitation, etc?

Second generation are largely the inheritors/benefactors of the wealth and success of the first generation IMHO.

[Zywiec]

79. "hard work" or just plain luck?

That was your question, but of course you labeled your poll differently.

What a surprise!!!! :eyes:

:puke:

[Ken Burch]

80. Not really. And what, might I ask, are you offended about?

n/t.