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So, the XeIA was killing people in Katrina NOLA?

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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:37 AM
Original message
So, the XeIA was killing people in Katrina NOLA?
Edited on Fri Dec-04-09 02:04 AM by omega minimo
Not only was the United States inflicted with televised GENOCIDE by the unelected, criminal, negligent Bush/Cheny administration, which used the reconfigured, post 9-11 FEMA under the Homeland Security Department and the predicted levee failure courtesy of the Army Corps of Engineers, to intentionally fail to save the disenfranchised left behind in the flooding, while not notifying local authorities that they knew the levee had already broken, the Blackwater mercenaries were working for the XeIA the whole, bloody time.




Blackwater Down
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051010/scahill

When asked what authority they were operating under, one guy said, "We're on contract with the Department of Homeland Security." Then, pointing to one of his comrades, he said, "He was even deputized by the governor of the state of Louisiana. We can make arrests and use lethal force if we deem it necessary." The man then held up the gold Louisiana law enforcement badge he wore around his neck. Blackwater spokesperson Anne Duke also said the company has a letter from Louisiana officials authorizing its forces to carry loaded weapons.

"This vigilantism demonstrates the utter breakdown of the government," says Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights. "These private security forces have behaved brutally, with impunity, in Iraq. To have them now on the streets of New Orleans is frightening and possibly illegal."

Who Sent In the Mercs?
http://www.alternet.org/katrina/25320/



As the threat of forced evictions now looms in New Orleans and the city confiscates even legally registered weapons from civilians, the private mercenaries of Blackwater patrol the streets openly wielding M-16s and other assault weapons. This despite Police Commissioner Eddie Compass' claim that, "Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons."

Officially, Blackwater says its forces are in New Orleans to "join the Hurricane relief effort." A statement on the company's website, dated Sept. 1, advertises airlift services, security services and crowd control. The company, according to news reports, has since begun taking private contracts to guard hotels, businesses and other properties. But what has not been publicly acknowledged is the claim, made to us by two Blackwater mercenaries, that they are actually engaged in general law enforcement activities including "securing neighborhoods" and "confronting criminals."



That raises a key question: under what authority are Blackwater's men operating? A spokesperson for the Homeland Security Department, Russ Knocke, told the Washington Post he knows of no federal plans to hire Blackwater or other private security. "We believe we've got the right mix of personnel in law enforcement for the federal government to meet the demands of public safety," he said.

But in an hour-long conversation with several Blackwater mercenaries, we heard a different story. The men we spoke with said they are indeed on contract with the Department of Homeland Security and the Louisiana governor's office and that some of them are sleeping in camps organized by Homeland Security in New Orleans and Baton Rouge. They told us they not only had authority to make arrests but also to use lethal force.


The Secret History of Hurricane Katrina
http://motherjones.com/environment/2009/08/secret-history-hurricane-katrina

Confronted with images of corpses floating in the blackened floodwaters or baking in the sun on abandoned highways, there aren't too many people left who see what happened following Hurricane Katrina as a purely "natural" disaster. The dominant narratives that have emerged, in the four years since the storm, are of a gross human tragedy, compounded by social inequities and government ineptitude—a crisis subsequently exploited in every way possible for political and financial gain.

But there's an even harsher truth, one some New Orleans residents learned in the very first days but which is only beginning to become clear to the rest of us: What took place in this devastated American city was no less than a war, in which victims whose only crimes were poverty and blackness were treated as enemies of the state.
<snip>
The Blackwater operators described their mission in New Orleans as "securing neighborhoods," as if they were talking about Sadr City. When National Guard troops descended on the city, the Army Times described their role as fighting "the insurgency in the city." Brigadier Gen. Gary Jones, who commanded the Louisiana National Guard's Joint Task Force, told the paper, "This place is going to look like Little Somalia. We're going to go out and take this city back. This will be a combat operation to get this city under control."

Ten days after the storm, the New York Times reported that although the city was calm with no signs of looting (though it acknowledged this had taken place previously), "New Orleans has turned into an armed camp, patrolled by thousands of local, state, and federal law enforcement officers, as well as National Guard troops and active-duty soldiers." The local police superintendent ordered all weapons, including legally registered firearms, confiscated from civilians. But as the Times noted, that order didn't "apply to hundreds of security guards hired by businesses and some wealthy individuals to protect property… openly carry M-16's and other assault rifles." Scahill spoke to Michael Montgomery, the chief of security for one wealthy businessman who said his men came under fire from "black gangbangers" near the Ninth Ward. Armed with AR-15s and Glocks, Montgomery and his men "unleashed a barrage of bullets in the general direction of the alleged shooters on the overpass. 'After that, all I heard was moaning and screaming, and the shooting stopped. That was it. Enough said.'"
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Louisiana1976 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. Kudos for posting this...there is a lot more to the federal flood
than meets the eye. For example, the fact that Bush in order to be able to afford tax cuts for the rich, cut the Army Corps of Engineers' budget so they could no longer properly maintain NOLA's levees.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Never forget.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
21. And the fact that the White House knew the levees were breached
for a whole day before they told anyone.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #21
44. A harbinger of what is coming. nt
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
128. I guess I am old and little slow, please what is XEIA.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:05 AM
Response to Original message
2. Why call them "XeIA"?
Shouldn't those criminals be exposed for what they are? :shrug:
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. That didn't do it for ya, huh?
Okay, you go: :popcorn:
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Huh? I don't get your reply.
:shrug:
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I'm sorry. I didn't get your post.
What do you call them?
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. You are talking about the CIA, right? Why not just call them that? nt
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. .
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
29. Just want to say that we are on the same side here. What Blackwater aka XeIA, Fema, and * & Co did
Edited on Fri Dec-04-09 03:42 AM by earth mom
in NOLA was totally criminal.


What happened after Katrina in NOLA should have woke the entire country up to the lengths * & Co & their band of criminals would go to see how far they could go to push the envelope and get away with it.

As far as I'm concerned they all belong in jail or the Hague.



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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #29
123. The Hague? Really?
Don't trust our own Constitution and judicial branch to handle domestic issues like this? Of coarse an international court is beyond reproach and certainly outside of the realm of corruption...maybe the Hague should start trying our traffic cases too...:eyes:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. Because XeIA is an aural pun?
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #20
38. Now I get it, Xe(Z) I A.
Good one, omega minimo.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
50. Ah , you just explained this for me.
I couldn't figure out what the heck "XeIa" was. Now I get it.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
45. It's really just for effect
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #45
96. What an odd comment
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
58. Because they're now called Xe, and it's a pun on C.I.A.
And a rather good one, I might add. ;)
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #58
98. Why thank you
Edited on Sat Dec-05-09 12:24 AM by omega minimo
:toast: It is rather good, aside from having to be EXPLAINED! :spray:

Then again, who's supposed to know how you pronounce "Xe"? :crazy: (Zhee) Maybe they're preparing for the Chinese takeover of the U.S. :shrug:
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
80. I was helping rebuild after Katrina,
A year later, blackwater was still there and bullying and intimidating everyone they could. Idiots with guns. The media never saw them...right. N.O. was an openly police state, except they were Merc's instead of LEO's. As an American, I was revolted and probably damned lucky not to have been shot. We insulted those bully pricks at every opportunity. puke..
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #80
97. Thank you.
For your witness and for an actual appropriate DU use of "prick" when it's really validated.,

Thanks for fuckin with the bastards.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:26 AM
Response to Original message
9. Never, ever forget. EVER.
Edited on Fri Dec-04-09 02:29 AM by chill_wind
Whatever we like or don't like, Obama does not = Bush. This should be one of the starkest reminders.

Bush belongs in the Hague.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
124. For Katrina/NOLA?
"Bush belongs in the Hague." :shrug:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:38 AM
Response to Original message
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. you're still here?
:wow:
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. Must have been a mention of Bush and Hague
in the same sentence. We've made it angry.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
55. It's popped out quite a bit lately.
:wow:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Katrina didn't drown NOLA, the substandard levees drowned NOLA
Court: Army Corps of Engineers liable for Katrina flooding

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/11/18/louisiana.katrina.lawsuit/index.html

Get your facts straight.
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1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. and lies are lies...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. I have no idea what that means to you.
lol
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. I feel the same towards the twin tower and New York. Wusses
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
24. I cannot believe I am reading this at DU. This is no pity-party. Were you paying attention?
Were you here at DU when the City of New Orleans drowned? We have eyewitnesses here.

Do you not remember that black people who salvaged the necessities of life for their babies and grandmas were lumped in with looters? That black people were left to die on rooftops and in the Dome? That black people who tried to WALK OUT of the city were TURNED BACK with guns? That one DUer with a boat wanted to try to rescue trapped people but when he tried to obtain fuel he was told he would have to pay for it himself at a cost of hundreds of dollars a day, which he did not have?

Do you not comprehend that when an infrastructure of a city is destroyed--flattened-- washed away--nothing much usable left -- that what took a couple of CENTURIES to build cannot be rebuilt without massive governmental help? Schools, hospitals, roads, stores, churches, water, power...

Governmental help has always been available in America for disasters on this scale -- until New Orleans drowned and was left to rot. People were given checks and encouraged to disperse throughout the country. No one sent anyone to clean up destroyed neighborhoods, and individuals can't do it all by themselves. People who owned their own modest homes discovered they could not rebuild because the freaking INSURANCE COMPANIES WOULDN'T PAY. See, the owners of these piles of stinking rubble had to prove that it was the wind and not the water that destroyed their homes -- the insurance companies told them they wouldn't pay for "water damage" and, you see, everyone on the planet with a television had seen the flood.

What I have asked myself from that day forward is How in Hell Could This Happen In My Country?

Who are you, anyway?

Hekate
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
67. Great post!
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #24
99. Thank you, Hekate.
Someone has to bear witness.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #99
104. Thanks go to NOLA-DUers who burned their words into my memory, & to TV reporters...
... that we thought couldn't get more vacuous until they found their souls in the Dome of Horror in NOLA and told the world what they were seeing -- and smelling.

I will never forget, and I have physically never been within a thousand miles of New Orleans.

Bush the Lesser better be buried in a secret location when he finally shuffles off this mortal coil, because I guarantee there will be a long line of people waiting to make a donation at his gravesite.

Hekate

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seeinfweggos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #24
103. People were given checks and encouraged to disperse throughout the country.
Edited on Sat Dec-05-09 12:37 AM by seeinfweggos


funny how that just happened to help turn a purple state red with a diaspora of african americans. they were dispersed into safely red states like texas and mississippi.

two words - karl rove

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Woo.
You're really hanging out all over the place there.
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rudy23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
36.  this can't possibly be a legitimate poster. nt
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:44 AM
Response to Original message
12. It was a dry run.
No pun intended: It is what these fascists plan for the rest of America.
If they aren't stopped, only the wealthy and their toadies have a chance.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Yup.
We told em so.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. "This is a trend", he told us.
"Blackwater?" we asked. "The guys who are in Iraq?"

"Yeah," said the officer. "They're all over the place."

A short while later, as we continued down Bourbon Street, we ran into the men from the car. They wore Blackwater ID badges on their arms.

"When they told me New Orleans, I said, 'What country is that in?,'" said one of the Blackwater men. He was wearing his company ID around his neck in a carrying case with the phrase "Operation Iraqi Freedom" printed on it. After bragging about how he drives around Iraq in a "State Department issued level 5, explosion proof BMW," he said he was "just trying to get back to Kirkuk (in the north of Iraq) where the real action is." Later we overheard him on his cell phone complaining that Blackwater was only paying $350 a day plus per diem. That is much less than the men make serving in more dangerous conditions in Iraq. Two men we spoke with said they plan on returning to Iraq in October. But, as one mercenary said, they've been told they could be in New Orleans for up to 6 months. "This is a trend," he told us. "You're going to see a lot more guys like us in these situations."

If Blackwater's reputation and record in Iraq are any indication of the kind of "services" the company offers, the people of New Orleans have much to fear.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0910-07.htm
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
132. too late to rec, but will kick. it continues to amaze me that, with everything we have learned
about the company formerly known as blackwater, now Xe (whatever the hell they want it to mean), there are still people, even here on DU, defending them. absolutely disgusting.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
25. Why did Prince come out, do you think?
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #25
47. Blackmail of a sort? Go after him and he spills the beans?
Edited on Fri Dec-04-09 11:22 AM by Hekate
A threat to the current POTUS?

Hekate
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #25
49. So he can hide in plain sight while daring people to do something about it?
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
82. Greed.
He saw an opportunity and already had govt. contracts for protection. There are also a lot of individual money there who could pay for protection from the have-nots. The cost of real estate there was like New York.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #12
46. Blackwater is a big, big part of the Bush Legacy. It's a cancer. nt
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. No doubt, and the Prince family are old Bush family freinds...
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
54. Afraid you are right, Octafish.
And as I sat here in Ala. helplessly watching it, I knew at the time what they were doing.

Mississippi used Katrina as a form of urban renewal on the Biloxi coast, too.
The land on the Gulf was too valuable to allow "plain folks" to re-build.

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JoeyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #54
83. Yeah, I noticed that too.
Don't bother helping those poor people, but for the love of god shield the casinos with your lives if you have to!
I keep waiting for Alabama and Florida to pull something like this.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
60. Until the climate collapses, then the wealthy will eat the toadies. Or vice versa. nt
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
81. If it was a "dry run,"
then America will lose. Most people blindly accepted and obeyed any scumbag with a gun and a badge. And these guys were scum. I loved the poor citizens of N O. They were great. They would give you their last anything and invite you back. I made good money being there, but on my off hours, I was helping the people who really needed it.I worked until an artery burst and didn't want to leave then.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:50 AM
Response to Original message
16. I'm still trying to figure out the ramifications.
Edited on Fri Dec-04-09 03:23 AM by EFerrari
They've been "guarding" CEOs all over the world, they're in Latin America. Who knows where else. Can't wait until Jeremy Scahill runs it down.

Gives a whole new valence to Obama's "the fine men and women of the CIA", doesn't it

Their criminality has never been so naked.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. Scahill was the first to tell us about Blackwater in NOLA (2005)
I remember hearing him talking about it (maybe democracynow?) It was pretty dark and freaky to contemplate. Still is.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0910-07.htm

the transcript might be still be there at democracynow.org (link at the end of the article.)

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. I remember that as a DN faithful.
Amy and her team are the very best of American journalism.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Naked murderous criminality, walking freely.

Scahill on Keith Olbermann

Blackwater (Xe): Killing their critics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwrl6TBrFAE

and other videos.

Scahill as a journalist has done his part over and over.
And in this case, Olbermann, too.
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rudy23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #26
37. I wouldn't be surprised if they were agent provacatuers.
I think many people in the White House were very disappointed they didn't get the riots they wanted out of Katrina. So after a few days, they just started making shit up and spreading it around Baton Rouge--stories about gangs breaking into sporting goods stores and stealing all the guns and ammo. I have always suspected those rumors came out b/c that's what they were hoping to stir up in N.O. to let themselves off the hook politically for letting thousands die.
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catzies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
87. Your thinking resonates with me, as I had the same thoughts then and now
Never ever ever forget.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
22. Who did they kill in NOLA?

:shrug:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #22
32. The better question is why were paramilitaries deployed
to an American city when the Red Cross was blocked from sending in WATER.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. That is a better question but the OP's thread title suggests Blackwater killed people in NOLA and

I'd like to hear more about that. Who got killed by Blackwater in NOLA?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #33
51. There's two videos at this link. The second one is Scahill talking about being in NOLA
and he brings up the issue of unsolved deaths and stories of shootings told by security forces there. Hell, the poor black people who died in New Orleans were never even counted.

http://news.aol.com/newsbloggers/2007/11/08/moyers-interviews-scahill-on-blackwater/
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #51
62. I watched that video

And I see where he talked about Blackwater and then he says he meets up with "other" security forces who described the story of shooting people. If its the same story as the one in the OP, it started off with the security detail being shot at first and them returning fire (as in self-defense). I'm not sure that I can fault someone for defending themselves.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. The truth is we don't know who they killed or didn't kill.
It was all hidden. Bush's Funeral Business friends descended on the city confiscating bodies which were kept in freezers for weeks, maybe months. They would not allow the area's own under-takers to take care of the bodies and many residents were not allowed to collect the bodies of their loved ones for burial.

We don't even know how many actually died. Nor do we know what many people died from.

But when a country uses mercenaries to go into a disaster area and treat the victims of the disaster as if they were an enemy, we can speculate about exactly what they did there. We know what they have done to the people of Iraq. And who would ever have thought we would have murderous mercenaries patrolling the streets of America? Ten years ago, you would have questioned anyone who made that claim. So would I. But now that the full scope of what has been going in this country has been exposed bit by bit, anything is possible to imagine and people are right to ask 'exactly what were they doing there and what DID they do while they were there'?

In fact, what were they doing in Iraq. I remember not so long ago when it was revealed that the US and Britain had hired mercenaries for that war, people were outraged, some not even believing it. Now, here you are more worried about possibly falsely accusing these bad guys of killing people, when we know for a fact that killing people is what they do.

How quickly people are willing to give up the principles they used to believe in. And for what? Who are you defending? I do not want to live in a country that would even think of sending a mercenary army to 'deal with' the victims of a disaster. And I never, ever want to lose the sense of outrage that such a decision should righfully evoke.
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Very well said..thank you...
I agree...and I am OUTRAGED that we still dont have any criminals from the Bush administration being called to account.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #64
73. You're right that is the truth we don't know -- which makes the OP bullshit.

Its this new hysteria about Blackwater and other armed security firms that I'm challenging.

You really don't know what I would have said ten years. I know people who were hired by Blackwater and other firms and, as best as I can tell they aren't "murderous mercenaries". They were armed security guards and thats it.

I am certain that armed contractors have acted ruthless abroad and maybe even domestically and I'm all for their prosecution when appropriate.

You say people are willing to give up the principle they used to believe in. I see it in this thread. Because some Blackwater security may have wrongly killed people in Irag, they must have killed people in NOLA too because "its what they do". How does that even make sense? All I am doing is questioning the hype about Blackwater and other security firms.

There is nothing new about governments hiring civilians to augment their armed ranks both domestically and abroad. There may not be outrage because that in itself is not outrageous.

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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. The OP is not bullshit.
But you're right. I do not know you and obviously gave you far more credit than you were due. Private, military armies are unconstitutional. Exactly who was the army of mercenaries working in NOLA? Who did they rescue, what lives did they save? DID they kill anyone? And why was it all so secret? We don't hide the presence of the National Guard at disaster areas, nor have I ever heard them saying they would use lethal force against ordinary victims of a hurricane.

Who authorized Blackwater mercenaries to 'use lethal force' in a disaster area?

Who paid them to be there? As far as them being murderous mercenaries, they are. Ask the people of Iraq. No, don't even go there. Read what the whistle-blowers have reported about them.

This country is a democracy, not some third-world macho dictatorship, or at least it was once. We are now finding out that there may be a shadow government with its own army of thugs whose interests are not the American people.

You may want to live in a country like that, but I can assure you the vast majority of Americans do not. I want to know, eg, are they being paid with tax dollars and who gave permission to spend our tax dollars on these people. If we do not have an army which is under the control of the elected civilian leadership of this country, to go to war, then we should not start wars.

And if you don't like the Constitution of this country, that's your problem. I do. I like the checks and balances of our system. I do not like shadowy private armies that the average citizen is funding without their knowledge and who appear to be motivated by greed only, certainly not by any love of this country's principles, and definitely without having sworn, as military personel are required to do, to defend and protect this nation. Just who are theyu protecting?
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. Private, military armies may be unconstutional, but private security firms are not unconstitutional.

Tell me what the difference is?

I like my US Constitution and laws just fine. Show me how they broke the law or violated the constitution in NOLA and maybe then you and the OP won't sound hysterical.

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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #79
86. We already know that Blackwater was actually
a privatized arm of the CIA. I don't where a city would actually allow a "private security firm" to take charge of a catastrophe with automatic weapons. Blackwater was/is a private Army, not mall cops.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #79
92. Katrina NOLA is the difference.
"Show me how they broke the law or violated the constitution in NOLA and maybe then you and the OP won't sound hysterical."

Show me how they didn't break the law or violate the constitution or contribute to the genocide or shoot in the direction of citizens and listen to the "screaming and whimpering" (like dogs) followed by silence and didn't piss all over the civil rights of the woman in the photo in the "bullshit" OP. Show me.

Show me how their very presence doesn't underscore the insidiousness of this event and the crime against humanity by our own government that has been perpetrated.

"Hysterical"? Kiss My Ass.

You want HYSTERICAL? Get up in my face again about how this was not GENOCIDE and these were just "security guards" doin a job.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #92
125. Asking to prove the negative of your assertion is no way to make your case

The Katrina was a disaster preceded by and followed by every important elected and appointed official failing do their jobs, but it wasn't genocide.

Yes, I think your outrage over what really happened (and outrage of the inept handling of that disaster is called for) has made you hysterical. Asking me to prove a negative is a example of that.

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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #125
129. Your liimp acceptance of it and lame rationalization is how they got away with genocide.
You may have had the same laissez faire attitude toward investigations and impeachment of the various crimes of the Bush and Cheney administration. Perhaps some of the evidence you seek is buried there -- in their "failing to do their jobs" as you so impotently state it. Even the most casual observer knows there was much more to it than that.

Katrina was genocide. Enabled by blind acceptance and administrative apologists, who find a reaction to the intentional and systematic abandonment of a segment of the population and the televised horror and the American zombie non-reaction, to be "hysterical."

:evilfrown:

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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #64
133. Thank you, Sabrina
for your lucid posts. :pals:
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #64
134. Excellent post
:hi:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #62
70. That's pretty much Blackwater's standard story no matter where they shoot people, I guess.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #62
85. Thats their story
and they're stickin to it. I wouldn't believe them. People were trying to survive not attack other groups.
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DatManFromNawlins Donating Member (640 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
57. Nobody
But you can't stop conspiracy kooks from being conspiracy kooks.

The Army Corps of Engineers killed people in New Orleans. Bush and the National Guard are guilty at least for their inaction which may have contributed to deaths. But Blackwater? Not so much.

And this Bush budget meme is complete bullshit. Those levees were not built under Bush's watch, and it was the DESIGN of the levees, NOT the maintenance, which caused the flooding. Both parties share equal responsibility for inadequate flood protection in New Orleans. Look at the most recent Obama trip. Bullshitted around for 4 hours to show he "cares," then went to Cali for a fundraiser, and nothing has happened since. Meanwhile, a LARGE percentage of this country's oil, gas, and chemical refining infrastructure lays completely bare to the Gulf.

People who try to make this a political issue instead of a national security and policy issue are free to go fuck themselves with a rabid pitt bull and a jar of vasoline.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #57
72. Right, because national security, let alone policy, is never a political issue.
lol
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azureblue Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #57
75. you are wrong
Edited on Fri Dec-04-09 08:08 PM by azureblue
and you should know better. In 1995, in response to disastrous flooding, the SELA program was created - its purpose to inspect and repair the entire levee system. The levees were suffering from age, faulty construction, erosion, sinking under their own weight, plant and animal infestation, and more. Everyone, from the ACOE to the Times Picayune agreed that, whatever the reason, it was time to fix them before a real disaster happened. The program started and repairs were underway.

Enter Bush the stupid..

What's the first thing he does? Why, gives tax breaks to the rich who put him in office. He squanders the surplus Clinton left him, then starts cutting funding the the ACOE. For not just one year but three years in a row. So this is simple to understand. Even if the ACOE built every levee from the beginning, even if they built them sub standard, a program was underway to fix them. And Bush stopped the program dead in its tracks. For three years, the SELA levee repair budget was cut to as little as one fourth of what was needed. No money, no workee. No repaired levees, and the levees gave way, flooding the city. See, now is that easy to understand?

Facts:

February 2001
Bush’s first budget proposed more than half a billion dollars worth of cuts to the Army Corps of Engineers for the 2002 fiscal year. Bush proposed half of what his own officials said was necessary for the critical Southeast Louisiana Flood Control Project (SELA)—a project started after a 1995 rainstorm flooded 25,000 homes and caused a half billion dollars in damage.

Bush did this to offset the tax break he gave to the top 1% of rich Americans. The first major economic initiative pursued by the president was a massive tax cut for the rich, enacted in June of 2001. Bush signed his massive $1.3 trillion income tax cut into law-a tax cut that severely depleted the government of revenues it needed to address critical priorities.

February 2002
Bush provided just $5 million for maintaining and upgrading critical hurricane protection levees in New Orleans—one fifth of what government experts and Republican elected officials in Louisiana told the administration was needed. Bush knew SELA needed $80 million to keep working, but the he only proposed providing a quarter of that.

February 2004
The SELA project sought $100 million to repair the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain levees, but Bush offered only $16.5 million. The Army Corps of Engineers asked for $27 million to pay for hurricane protection upgrades around Lake Pontchartrain—but the White House cut that to $3.9 million. Gaps in levees around Lake Pontchartrain & the Industrial Canal, which were supposed to be filled by 2004, were not filled because of budget shortfalls. Repair work on the levees, including the ones that failed, was stopped due to lack of funds.


Now let's look at previous hurricane responses:

President Nixon -- August 1969 when Cat-5 Hurricane Camille hit roughly the same area as Katrina, President Nixon had already readied the National Guard and ordered all Gulf rescue vessels and equipment from Tampa and Houston to follow the Hurricane in. There were over 1,000 regular military with two dozen helicopters to assist the Coast Guard and National Guard within hours after the skies cleared.

President Clinton -- September 1999, Hurricane Floyd -- Cat-3, was bearing down on the Carolinas and Virginia. President Clinton was in Christchurch, New Zealand - meeting with President Jiang of China. He made the proclamation that only Presidents can make and declared the areas affected by Floyd "Federal Disaster Areas" so the National Guard and Military can begin to mobilize. Then he cut short his meetings overseas and flew home to coordinate the rescue efforts. All one day BEFORE a Cat-3 hit the coast.

President Bush (41) -- August 1992 -- was in the midst of a campaign for re-election. Yet, he cut off his campaigning the day before and went to Washington where he martialed the largest military operation on US soil in history. He sent in 7,000 National Guard and 22,000 regular military personnel, and all the gear to begin the clean up within hours after Andrew passed through Florida.

George Bush (43) -- August 2005 -- Cat-5 Hurricane Katrina bears down on New Orleans and the Mississippi gulf. Both states are down nearly 8,000 National Guard troops because they are in Iraq -- with most of the rescue gear needed.
Bush is on vacation. The day before Katrina makes landfall, Bush rides his bike for two hours. The day Katrina hits, he goes to John McCain's birthday party,
.
George Bush (43)’s responses to FL hurricanes in 2004:

HURRICANE CHARLEY

In 2004, George W. Bush and FEMA left little room for error. Not long after Hurricane Charley first made landfall on Aug. 13, Bush declared the state a federal disaster area to release federal relief funds. Less than two days after Charley ripped through southwestern Florida, he was on the ground touring hard-hit neighborhoods.

Bush later made a handful of other Florida visits to review storm-related damage, but the story on the ground was not Bush's hand-holding. Rather, it was FEMA's performance.

Charley hit on a Friday. With emergency supply trucks pre-positioned at depots for rapid, post-storm deployment, the agency was able to deliver seven truckloads of ice, water, cots, blankets, baby food and building supplies by Sunday. On Monday, hundreds of federal housing inspectors were on the ground, and FEMA already had opened its first one-stop disaster relief center.

By the end of September, three hurricanes later, the agency had processed 646,984 registrations for assistance with the help of phone lines operating 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Fifty-five shelters, 31 disaster recovery centers and six medical teams were in operation across the state. Federal and state assistance to households reached more than $361 million, nearly 300,000 housing inspections were completed, and roughly 150,000 waterproof tarps were provided for homeowners, according to FEMA figures.


Yep - Bush intentionally destroyed New Orleans. And he was the one who put Blackwater in the city, too. Go ask some of those who stayed in the city about BW. Yeah, they killed people. They beat people, they stole, they broke into stores. They were nothing but thugs.

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dreamnightwind Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #75
121. Awesome post
Thanks for some historical perspective and some data to accompany it. I don't completely buy the "intentionally destroyed New Orleans" verdict, but either way, he might as well have given the results of his actions.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
84. There were so many dead,
anyone could've gotten by with murders. Different Point; I was told by dozens of residents that they heard the explosives go off at the levees. Maybe when the levee breaks (Led Zeppelin), it sounds like that, i don't know.
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peacebird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #22
34. sounds like they killed these fellows...?
"Scahill spoke to Michael Montgomery, the chief of security for one wealthy businessman who said his men came under fire from "black gangbangers" near the Ninth Ward. Armed with AR-15s and Glocks, Montgomery and his men "unleashed a barrage of bullets in the general direction of the alleged shooters on the overpass. 'After that, all I heard was moaning and screaming, and the shooting stopped. That was it. Enough said.'"
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
61. Were those Blackwater folks?

And if they were and we say that story is accurate, then wasn't it self-defense?

:shrug:
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #61
76. yeah right.
Chief of security for "wealthy businessmen" sees a group of "black gangbangers" and they open fire.

How much you wanna bet the "gangbangers" were just folks trying to get help?


Too many unknowns in this story...

:shrug:


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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #61
102. This is the United States of America. Or was.
:thumbsdown: Who are you an apologist for?



"SELF DEFENSE"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????????????? :evilfrown: AGAINST PEOPLE WHO HAD NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????????? :puke:
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
35. Mercenaries on American streets is HUGELY unconstitutional...
It violates the purpose of The United States in so many ways it's difficult to know where to begin.
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
39. the only reason they have the confidence
to try that shit is that they have 1000 of the loudest AM stations in the country for coordinated UNCONTESTED repetition.

the reason they left those people w/out water for 5 days was to provoke black on white violence they projected, in their racism, would happen.

limbaugh and sons could use it for years to expand and rally the base and as long as the radio monopoly is uncontested it can keep turning that minority into near 50% and they knew from experience whatever happened in NO could be spun whatever way they needed- for real estate, turning over politicians, etc. --- another win win for the roves, and a test for fascism.

until the left collectively starts picketing those stations and boycotting the local sponsors they're going to keep the biggest soapbox in the country and it's going to keep them playing shit like this.
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nicky187 Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
40. Read "Blackwater" ...
... by Jeremy Scahill. He documents all this thoroughly.

Time to replace CIA et al. with something that works.

Time to stop letting them use "contractors." Maybe
the Mafia could take over this job.

(Love the quote from your original post: ""...the
20th century has been characterized by three developments of
great political importance: The growth of democracy, the
growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate
propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against
democracy." -- Alex Carey, Australian social
scientist")
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
41. Private armies hired by our government to take legally-possessed firearms from the citizens
and to patrol the streets. I NEVER thought I would see that day during my lifetime. But there it was in living color. And now you hear hardly a peep about it. If that judge hadn't recently ruled against the Corpse of Engineers the whole levy abandonment program would have remained under wraps.

My wife's family is from New Orleans so we have been there to help with the recovery effort and also for a couple of visits. The city still looks like a disaster area. Even the area around the French Quarter and the Riverwalk was overrun by gypsies (for lack of a better name for filthy, druggies who looked like bikers on bicycles) and beggars. Whole neighborhoods are still rubble.

You have to remember that before Katrina struck, New Orleans was viewed as Sin City and Democratic Heaven by the reich-wingers. They were thrilled when it went under water and the hundreds of thousands of black residents particularly had to uproot and leave. Now it's being turned over to billionaire developers to "clean it up" and make it into something--who knows what--that might be acceptable to the fundamentalist fanatics who control our government. This "re-developing" is happening up and down the Gulf Coast--not just in NO.

Another really sad part of this tragic story is that New Orleans was one of the most corrupt, crime-ridden cities in America. Apparently, there were lots of contractors and politicians and mob associates who were more than willing to steal funds that were intended to help maintain the levees and the pump system for the city. That's part of the reason for the problems with the levees. The other part is that America never did understand that with the right approach (using Holland's technical expertise at protecting low-lying areas) New Orleans could have been protected--and still could be. But it's going to take a strong commitment at the Federal level (lots of well-supervised investment dollars) and a major environmental effort to offset many of the enormously short-sighted things the Corpse has done over the decades prior to Katrina.

The gangs and criminal element were turning large parts of the city into war zones before Katrina hit. I remember that we were always careful not to stray too far from the main French Quarter area for fear of being mugged or murdered. And even driving through some parts of the city was a very scary proposition. I'm not surprised that there may have been some gang violence that occurred during the aftermath of Katrina, but having mercenaries come in to patrol the streets was a violation of every American's rights--not just of the folks in New Orleans. Our National Guard is supposed to be available to help with those types of situations. Some did, but too many other units were deployed in Iraq and were unavailable when needed. This is another legacy of the Bush years.

As a number of posters have pointed out, the blase attitude of many Americans, and particularly our leaders, toward the anti-American actions of our government is one of the most disturbing elements of this story.

Recommend.
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #41
59. Our national guard, is it back home and available NOW?
If not, we can no longer blame Bush. The current POTUS bears that responsibility.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. I'm sure they'll be the first to come home--sometime 18 months or more from now.
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bluedigger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #41
74. Couple of minor corrections.
1. The homeless kids in the Quarter and along the riverfront are known locally as "gutterpunks".

2. Using the past-tense to describe New Orleans as corrupt. Check out this story from today's nola.com:


December 04, 2009, 8:22AM

Mayor Ray Nagin told WWL-TV Thursday that he sees no problem with giving public contracts to business people previously convicted of public corruption.

When asked whether he would support legislation disqualifying felons from getting future city contracts, Nagin told reporter Bigad Shaban:

"I think it depends upon the conviction. I don't want child molesters and rapists, and those kind of people, but if somebody has made a mistake and has a white-collar crime and they've paid their time and they're back in the business, then I don't really see a problem with that."

"I would say, hopefully, they've learned their lesson and we're smart enough to not let them steal again.

http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2009/12/post_184.html

Nice job, Ray-Ray. They may not be able to get a job running a cash register at the convenience store, but Ray's door is wide open. And no, they are not "smart enough"...



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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #74
91. Re: 1. the people I saw were mostly adults and some very shifty, dangerous looking types.
Re: 2. just when you thought you'd heard it all . . .

Thanks for posting that, bluedigger.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
42. K&R.
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seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
43. When will Congress come out of idle mode and notice the danger of these shadowy paramilitary groups?
Americans are not safe when these unaccountable, marauding groups roam our streets after hurricanes, for example.

And with many Blackwater operatives recruited from foreign countries, there is absolutely no loyalty to our country or our people.


This is a recipe for catastrophic consequences.





New Orleans after Katrina, 2005



And Lieberman couldn't be bothered to investigate the aftermath of Bush's Katrina debacle.


Blackwater's assassination squads? Nah.

Blackwater murdering innocent Iraqis? Nah.

Blackwater's weapons trafficking? Nah.

Blackwater murdering whistleblowers? Nah.

Blackwater's role in flying renditions to black sites? Nah.

Blackwater's role in targeted killings in Afghanistan? Nah.

Blackwater's role in drone attacks in Pakistan and Afghanistan? Nah.




Rest assured: There is a BFEE connection with Blackwater.




No matter how cynical I become, I can't keep up.



Our entire governing structure is a cesspool.



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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #43
52. What makes you think they're in "idle mode" re this?
These are the same people who voted immunity for the telecoms in spying on everyone.

Thanks for supplying the links
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
53. K/R
:thumbsup:
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
56. DU brain trust exposes connection early on
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #56
68. Thanks for this OP and for the link. Happy to rec both
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #68
93. Thank you my dear number
I am still outraged, heartbroken and permanently uppity. I still can't believe it. And thank the photographer who took that amazing shot of A Real Human Being.
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santamargarita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
65. Well said, thanks
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #65
94. gracias, santamargarita
:toast:
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rampart Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
69. new orleans - katrina aftermath
my family survived the storm, was sufficiently supplied with essentials, and our street was dry a week in.

we were taken from our home and our pets at gunpoint by these uniformed thugs and sent into exile for over 5 weeks. the squad gave us no option except removal and seemed to be military, but with no recognizable rank insignia or unit patch. blackwater? who knows.

we escaped interrment in el paso, fortunately the plastic worked.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #69
107. Thank you, rampart
Our hearts (still) go out to you.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
71. knr nt
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
78. Will anyone be prosecuted? I thought not. nt
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
88. This is some of the most scary stuff we have to deal with.
The question is how?

There are many hurdles to overcome in order to start putting this stuff right.

Let’s start with the easy one first. First of all, Obama did not make torture a non-punishable offense, that’s just plain reality. The same goes for these domestic crimes committed by Blackwater. Any punishment to be meted out in the cause of justice would be at the sufferance of our own Supreme Court. Obama, being a scholar on this type of thing, he probably knows that the question of whether or not past presidents and their co-conspirators can be punished for war crimes would end up in their lap. So let’s ask: would this particular Supreme Court, a court that has only become more ideological since 2000 (when they ruled it unconstitutional to count legally cast votes), would this court have any qualms at all about granting the previous president carte blanch for his leadership in championing the war on terror? Can anyone really trust the current Roberts court with this kind of decision, because I certainly don’t?

This doesn’t mean that we have to support the status quo, either. Another way of dealing with the problem of bringing war criminals (and domestic criminals in the case of Katrina) to justice could begin with a closer look at why this is such a difficult task to accomplish. What are the roadblocks and how can they be removed?

Analysis might lead to the conclusion that Scalia must go before anything productive can be accomplished concerning bringing these criminals to justice. It would only be a setback to have a conviction appealed to the SCOTUS only to have it overturned there, which I am as positive about as I am about any political foresight. It would set things back irretrievably, not move them forward.

How do you get rid of Scalia? The best method could be by organizing a movement to impeach him. Why not? The grounds for impeachment are there, sure enough. He is so full of himself that he went on a weekend camping trip with a defendant that had a case pending before him and then he refused to recuse himself from that case. And when he was publicly asked to recuse himself, he responded in writing. What more is needed for impeachment of a judge? I cannot think of a better case if I made one up myself. everyone knows it is improper for a judge to have an overnighter with the defendant. Whether he would ultimately be removed from office or not is hardly even relevant in a case like this one. Just making his defenders try and defend him would be a very good political strategy.

What would the public think about this if became a national debate?

And so on and so forth. People are ready for another movement, this next one could be about truth and justice.

Anyhow, things are never all that simple to me. They are very complicated because things depend on other things which depend on others...


I think this is what a movement looks like in today’s society. It can happen very quickly, and once its purpose is served it disappears.




The Obama movement was basically put together to defeat the Clinton machine, which they did accomplish, and no other politician that I know of could have done it. (A few months before it happened I was convinced it was impossible. I actually voted for Edwards in the primary the day before he withdrew. Obama used Edwards’ candidacy brilliantly, if you ask me, subtly letting folks know that he agreed with Edwards without ever having to actually utter any of the subversive or populist rhetoric.)


Here is an excellent article on the whole can of worms concerning Scalia.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3975/is_200410/ai_n9466377/

It is an unbeleivable story, and the fact that he is STILL a judge in the highest court of the land speaks volumes about how deep our problems run.
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dreamnightwind Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #88
122. Good post
I agree the SCOTUS is the backstop of many of our problems. Even if we muster the will and the minds to effect real change, much of it will die at the door of the Supreme Court, which has been packed to support, among other things, nearly unlimited expansion of the authority of the executive branch.

I'll read up on the Scalia story, wasn't really familiar with it. It would be awesome to impeach one or more of the SOB's, it's just unbelievable what kind of people are sitting in that court.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #122
126. The Scalia story is about as mind-numbing as it gets.
He's completely off his rocker on this. He doesn't even begin to live up to the standards that are expected of a federal judge.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
89. Take away the guns? I missed that at the time. Did the NRA accept that?
If a disaster happens in a really dense NRA area, will there be a shoot out brtween Blackwater/Ea and the NRA? Are these mercenaries going to be called in when it's densely NRA or was this a one time shameful racist attack on our own people who were abandoned, ignored, lied to, and left with NO BASIC ESSENTIALS and NO STRAIT ARROW ANSERS OR TRUTH.

NO TO MERCENARIES! THEY ARE THE PRIVATE ARMY OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE, FORMERLY RICE, NOW CLINTON if things are the same as under Rice.

So, are they the answer to security for the 1 per cent? of those who are piling up the riches before the next stages of going from 1 to 3 (rd world country)?

What have we learned? Sec. Clinton renewed the oontract with the name-changed Blackater in Iraq. Did she write a new agreement with them for Afghaistan and Pakistan? Did Obama renew any contracts within the U.S. - contracts that spell out that Blackwater has supiority over city, county, state police and the National Guard - which is what we saw in New Orleans?

ARE WE UNDER MILITARY/CONTRACTOR RULE RIGHT NOW? Have they taken away our rights formally and we don't know it? WHAT IS THE HIERARCHY OF AUTHORITY right now?

If they expect neighbor to take care of neighbor in the next diaster with mercenaries hanging over the scene - why not let us start organizing ourselves now? If we can't rely on the government who told us they were prepared and they lied - let us organize ourselves.

The corporate world called a war against us with a goal of owning us, brining us to our knees of submission, total control with no protest. This is the only possible wat to look at it.

It's all about taking our wealth and adding it to theirs, control and ownership of us with 100% obedience, and population reduction.

NOLA was an 'opportunity' to reduce costs = human costs - especially those who live on valuable land - whether dead then or as the years go on.

What Northern Europeans did to Native Americans is being done to us.

Look at Prince - he projects total arrogance and disdain. That, for me, is their legacy whether he is CEO or not, whether he teaches or not. The people who gave these mercenaries authorization have made it transparent, but with a hazy curtain over it - that will get lifted. Then what?

IS THERE A CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THE MOON KINGDOM AND BLACKWATER/Xe?
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. Xe wont be sent to Republicanland
If they were, big bad army-mans NRA guys would piss their pants and obey their masters.
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Oak2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #89
116. The NRA did raise a fuss
Were they the group that actually sued -- and won -- over this matter? That's what I remember.
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obliviously Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
95. Blackwater works for President Obama now.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #95
101. Blackwater works for Bushco's Imperial Executive now. The Imperial Xecutive.
You heard it here first. :evilfrown:
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obliviously Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #101
105. Sorry mini you lost me?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #105
106. oblivious, you were lost before minimo
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obliviously Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #106
108. so your saying Bush and Obama have a connection?
They are too different to be in some sort of new world order.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #108
109. So you're saying blah de blah de blah de blah?
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obliviously Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #109
113. Why are you being so rude tonight?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #108
111. Do Bill Clinton and the Bush family have a connection? And when did we find out?
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
100. Recommended. What a nice break from shitting on Obama... n/t
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #100
112. Personally, I think spending trillions to bail out capitalism and
purposefully avoiding offering single payer - Medicare for All -- to Americans

is "shitting" on Americans, as you so charmingly put it --!!!

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JetCityLiberal Donating Member (706 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #112
114. yes. agree.
thanks defendandprotect.

Paul
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #112
115. What a nice break from shitting on Obama! Let's shit on congress for a while...
All Republicans and almost all Democrats is congress, for example, who are purposefully avoiding offering single payer - Medicare for All -- to Americans!!!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #115
117. Evidently you've missed reading a lot of posts here -- including Wm. Greider and
Edited on Sat Dec-05-09 02:06 AM by defendandprotect
Michael Moore --

With the idea of actively targeting those who are voting against the interests of

Americans while propping up capitalism from its latest death throes --


Pelosi and Reid are as big fakes as the corporate Repugs --

Fakes who should be removed -- even if simply for continuing to fund the wars after '06 -- !!

In Nebraska, evidently, Reid is called "Repubican lite" --


Unfortunately, Obama eloped into the White House with the corporate-DLC -- and with

Wall Street, Goldman Sacks as bridesmaids --


Obama has taken substantial amounts from the "for profit" health care industry --

and knew just who to let head the health care reform discussions . . . Baucus!!!

Baucus is one of the most heavily pre-bribed and pre-owned DINO's in Congress --


We've had the ability to stop these illegal/immoral wars for 3 years now . . .

Obama has given no leadership to that -- not to Medicare for All!


NOR any leadership to re-regulating capitalism --

NOR amending the trade agreements -- NAFTA, etal --

Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime --

and the trade agreements are creating serious levels of unemployment here in America.







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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #117
118. Revolution then. That would be a hell of a lot faster than voting the bad ones out of office. nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #118
119. Obviously, we need a ...
PLAN B --

but certainly not violence ...

the most successful modern revolutions have been non-violent --

African-Americans and other minorities fighting for civil rights --

Homosexuals fighting for human rights --

And women still fight their non-violent revolution --

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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #119
120. Start small.
I could imagine one of our smaller states, Vermont maybe, becoming a bastion of liberal thought and progressive action.

Done well, others might follow and, if not, there'd at least be a place of sanctuary.

But even when we have a good deal of grass roots action, when it's spread out all over the nation it doesn't seem to be anywhere near as effective as we would like.

I don't know, just thinking out loud.

:P
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #120
130. We need more of this kind of thinking . . . . . .
Edited on Sat Dec-05-09 10:17 PM by defendandprotect
Wasn't it Vermont, however, which recently had an opportunity to deny corporation's

personhood and it didn't happen?

Would have also thought that Maine would have been immune to religious manipulations

to destroy homosexual human right to marriage?

I think also what has to be taken into account is the high degree of FAKE right wing

movements ... certainly the right wing Fundamentalist religious movement is largely fake.

GOP gave start up funds to the Christian Coalition in the 1980's . . .

other wealthy right wingers -- Scaife, etal -- funded Dobson's organization and Bauer's

organization. Not much different from FreedomWorks and the teabaggers.

Patriarchy has always used religion as a tool of conquest --

We also did it in Afghanistan in creating the Taliban/Al Qaeda and financing it up to 9/11,

at least. Used it to bait the Russians into Afghanistan in hopes of giving them a Vietnam

type experience!

We also created the VIOLENT Islamic movement and moved it into the Middle East --


Here's more on that -- it's takes us away from the direct thought of revolution, but I think

important to understand what the right wing means when they say they create "reality" and we

live it --

Stuff below is quoted from my journal --

:)


-----------------


FIRST PART OF THIS DEALS WITH HOW US/CIA CREATED TALIBAN AND AL QAEDA . . .
TO BAIT RUSSIANS INTO AFGHANISTAN . . .!!!


SECOND PART DEALS WITH THE TEXTBOOKS -- ISLAMIC STUFF --



The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs <"From the Shadows">, that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

Q: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

Q: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

http://www.takeoverworld.info/brzezinski_i... ...



---------------------------------------------------

SECOND PART --


The US spent $100's of millions shooting down Soviet helicopters yet didn't spend a penny helping Afghanis rebuild their infrastructure and institutions.

They also spent millions producing jihad preaching, fundamentalist textbooks and shipping them off to Afghanistan. These were the same text books the Western media discussed in shocked tones and told their audiences were used by fundamentalist teachers to brainwash their charges and to inculcate in young Afghanis a jihad mindset, hatred of foreigners and non-Muslims etc.


Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal?

Or perhaps I should say, "Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal that's waiting to happen?"

Because it has been almost unreported in the Western media that the US government shipped, and continues to ship, millions of Islamist textbooks into Afghanistan.

Only one English-speaking newspaper we could find has investigated this issue: the Washington Post. The story appeared March 23rd.

Washington Post investigators report that during the past twenty years the US has spent millions of dollars producing fanatical schoolbooks, which were then distributed in Afghanistan.

"The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books..." -- Washington Post, 23 March 2002 (1)

According to the Post the U.S. is now "...wrestling with the unintended consequences of its successful strategy of stirring Islamic fervor to fight communism."

So the books made up the core curriculum in Afghan schools. And what were the unintended consequences? The Post reports that according to unnamed officials the schoolbooks "steeped a generation in violence."

How could this result have been unintended? Did they expect that giving fundamentalist schoolbooks to schoolchildren would make them moderate Muslims?

Nobody with normal intelligence could expect to distribute millions of violent Islamist schoolbooks without influencing school children towards violent Islamism. Therefore one would assume that the unnamed US officials who, we are told, are distressed at these "unintended consequences" must previously have been unaware of the Islamist content of the schoolbooks.

But surely someone was aware. The US government can't write, edit, print and ship millions of violent, Muslim fundamentalist primers into Afghanistan without high officials in the US government approving those primers.

http://www.tenc.net/articles/jared/jihad.h...






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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
110. Americans are all being "Katrina'd" in one way or other -- and NOLA was an abandonment of AA's . . .
I don't know that we really have any idea how many actually died --

but it is obvious that it was purposeful.

Waiting for help for those in NOLA, was like waiting for the AWOL NORAD to respond on 9/11 --

All fake --

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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
127. Was the Bush admin.
derelict in their duties? I would say absolutely. Are they solely to blame for the aftermath of Katrina, particularly the gun seizures, the roaming bands of authorized disarming 'authorities'? Not even close. The governor, the mayor, and the police chief are all more to blame for these things than anyone in Washington at the time.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
131. Erik Prince, head of US security firm Blackwater, ‘was CIA operative’
Being in CIA means never having to say "You're sorry" to a judge.



Erik Prince, head of US security firm Blackwater, ‘was CIA operative’

The Times December 5, 2009
Giles Whittell in Washington

In public he was the lean and ruthless face of American military outsourcing in Iraq. Erik Prince, as founder of the Blackwater security company, packed a mobile phone on one hip and a handgun on the other as he flew in and out of the world’s troublespots co-ordinating protection teams for American VIPs — and handling the backlash when his employees were accused of shooting dead 17 Iraqi civilians at a Baghdad crossroads in 2007.

In private, he was a CIA operative, with his own file as a “vetted asset” at the agency’s headquarters, and a mission to build “a unilateral, unattributable capability” to hunt down and kill al-Qaeda militants for the US Government wherever they could be found.

SNIP...

Despite the political uproar, and a 15-month investigation by the Department of Justice that followed the 2007 massacre in Baghdad, Mr Prince has to date made few public comments on his company’s work, and none on his own relationship with the CIA.

He now has more reason to go public: according to three sources who spoke to Vanity Fair, Mr Prince was recruited by the agency in 2004 and ran intelligence-gathering operations in an unnamed Axis of Evil country until only two months ago, but was partially “outed” by leaks that followed a closed-door briefing of congressional leaders by Leon Panetta, the CIA director, last summer.

Mr Prince regards those leaks as a betrayal: “When it became politically expedient to do so, someone threw me under a bus,” he said. He claims that his company is now paying $2 million a month in legal bills to defend itself against lawsuits in both Iraq and the US, and has been singled out because of who he is. “I’m an easy target,” he told the magazine. “I’m from a Republican family and I own this company outright. Our competitors have nameless, faceless management teams.”

SOURCE:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6945254.ece



Excellent OP and thread, omega minimo.

This is the kind of thing that we'll investigate, once we get a Democratic Congress and a Democratic President.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
135. kick
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