The Swiss ban minarets... and the OTHER

[nadinbrzezinski]

At the risk of alienating some people who think it's their country and damn it we have no words to say on this... well there is another country that took civil rights back in the 1930s... you want more recent examples, well there is this little mess in Bosnia Herzegovina... where the other was hunted down and killed. OF course two more recent ones in Africa and people care even less about those two.

No, not saying Switzerland is going down that route... but today is a Minaret, a symbol... and those who tolerate this... well then.. what were the famous words of Time Magazine back in 1929 about the Nazis? Oh yeah, something about not being more dangerous than boy scouts. By now people should know extreme right wing movements ARE dangerous, no matter where they rise.

Anytime I see any kind of intolerance my internal alarms go off. And when the creation of the other is applauded... my internal alarms go into a three alarm fire.

Just a thought... because this should be raising all kinds of WTF moments... alas Santayana was right... those who refuse to learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

Ah yes, as usual passport, check

Emergency funds, check...

Dad was right...

[lapfog_1]

1. I have no problem with the Minarets

But I would have a problem with the call to prayer 5 times a day, especially in the modern times when the hadiths use loud speakers to reach all part of the town. But then I have a problem with church bells for exactly the same reason.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. The four that exist in Switzerland do not call for prayer

most of the population are refugees from Bosnia...

[lapfog_1]

6. The swiss shouldn't have banned them

but I don't have a problem if they had banned the (apparently non-existent) call to prayer.

Might have satisfied the rabid racist right without taking away one of the more beautiful (and functional for things other than the call to prayer) architectural features of the Islamic faith.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. I also feel for those refugees

I mean they fled one hell, only to get shadows of the same thing again.

I can only imagine the nightmares...

[Rosa Luxemburg]

23. the church bells near here are almost deafening you can't hear when you phone

[Swamp Rat]

3. Minarets are kinda cool.

:)

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Europe has had a hell of a time

absorbing the immigrants and they have become a permanent underclass.

That could have nothing to do with this, now could it?

I am sure the Brussels Journal reporter didn't go look into that part of the story.

IN contrast, in the US where the population is mostly middle class we ain't having those issues.

[imdjh]

10. We're having issues.

Even if you don't count the bombings and Ft. Hood, we're having issues. We may not have gangs of immigrant youth robbing tourists in the streets (other have claimed that territory) but we're having issues of our own. Although, would we know if we had gangs of immigrant or Moslem youth? Were those feral Somali children at Gay Pride in Minnesota national news? Probably not. We have the problems with Moslem cab drivers discriminating in ways no American would consider much less go unpunished for.



If our newspapers are continuing the trend of only reporting man bites dog, then how would we know?

And the man bites dog rule applies here on DU. When the woman tugged at the head scarf, it was the end of the world and people have been calling for her to go to jail. What was their response to the cab driver in New York throwing the gay men out of the cab? "What an asshole." Big fucking deal.

Dog bites man, isn't news. Man bites dog is news.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Ok we are having issues with first gen

immigrants... people who just came here from war zomes.

But like all other groups they are getting pretty much absorbed into the American culture by the second generation.

I know FEAR the other... again we also had issues with other groups of immigrants.

Jesus age, people need to read on the history of immigration in the US...

By the way at one point it was FEAR them Italians, Irish. our current favorite punching bag, Mexicans... and of course Arabs...

The cycle repeats.

[Libertas1776]

24. I think Europe especially

is having such a tough time grasping these waves of immigrants because they are simply not use to being "immigrate to" countries. Historically, they were "emigrate from" countries, with most going to countries like the US. Assimilation into the US is seemingly more easier since "American" nowadays can mean a man or woman of any race, creed, color etc and no one will bat an eye. Whereas being "British" "French" or "German" historically meant a certain, white Anglo Saxon Nordic Christian thing. There en lies the real problem.

Also, ironically, certain more generous social security benefits common in Europe come into play. As I heard discussed on the BBC World Service a couple of weeks ago, they talked about radical imams in places like France leeching off the countries generous social security nets that did not require them to seek active employment. Whereas in the US such nets are absent and Imams and other Muslim clerics must seek employment amongst their community, both Muslim and non, thereby allowing for diffusion between the cultures and limiting the ability of radicals to stay out of the public eye.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Yes and now they are grasping with it

and the backlash against a safety net starts as well.

And yes in Europe being French has a meaning... and that does not include the Colonials that were supposed to go back home after they built the country after WW II. Alas they did not, and they have not been absorbed into the population.

And I am just using France as an example.

[Diclotican]

39. nadinbrzezinski

nadinbrzezinski

Here you are an dumb ass.. Most of the emigrates who came from former colonies to France and other european nations was not coming to the continent right after world war two.. Most of them stay hell away from Europe after world war two, and it was first when Europe start to get on their feet that they came to Europe. First as labour for lot of industries - and in the start most of then indeed work here for a while, and then was traveling back to their home country because they had build up a small fortune, to help build a house, furniture, and hope for a far better future for them self home
It was not until the 1960s and 1970s that Europe was discovering the large quantities of people coming to them, from all over the place.. And until the early 1980s it was more sharming than everything else.. New food, new type of fruits and so on was coming in to the country.. Like my own who the last 20 year or so have discovered a whole different world of foods.. Indian, afghan, mongol, pakistani chinese and so on..
And for the most part most of them who emigrated to europe, and to Norway are today usp standing people who I have no problem with at all. They are honest decent people who are doing their best to put their children into schools, and to get them to have far better education than they had when they had the chance..

But we also have this little, minority who are doing everything wrong.. From stealing, to raping and gang members.. In the 1980s and early 1990s we had two big pakistani gangs in Oslo, named A and B gang. They more or less fight against them selfs, and over gang territory with a violence more or less unknown in Norway at that time.. The police was totally off guard and had to get knowledge about gang activity more or less from every corners.. Included US.. And even today when officially A and B gang is not longer there, just the names of the gangs is something most people respect, deeply.. And the gangs is up there today too.. just little more carefully han the more open gangs of A and B gang..
Today we do have a lot of gangs and criminals from all sorts of nations, not everyone is criminal if they are dark in skin and from a muslim country - far for it. But a tiny minority of them have ravaged havoc with the rest of the population who for the most cases just want to live their life as best as they can, be little more safe than they was in their home country.. And maybe even little more richer than they was back home:P..

Europe have a whole different history when it came to emigration than US have.. US are a country of emigrates, and have for the most part managed well to melt all of them to one country, and most of them sees them selfs as AMERICANS not as the different nations they once belonged too.. First you are an american, then your ancestors came into play, and you are chinese, Japanese Coreen, german, and so on.. In Europe for the most part you are first from your birth place aka the country of orrigin, not where you live.. And even today, in most country europe tend to have areas where example foreigner from asia, or north Africa is dominate, and other where the natives is living, far more exclusive and closed of than in US.. And in some city's it is more or less no contact between the two because no white want or dear do go into the communities who are dominant from Asia or North Africa.. Because of gang warfare because of fear of being beaten to near death.. Who happened all to often in many of this areas as it is today..

Before you jugged europe, you must also understand why, and the history between the muslim word and the more or less cristian world of europe.. It have for the most part been war and hostility from the AD620s up to today.. and at one point in history it looked bleak for the cristian europe as the muslims looked as they was in the habit of taking over everything.. Anyway this is some of the reason behind the hostility, cold hostility between europe and the muslim world.. We do have a lot of bad blood between us in history, and most of "Old europe" have a collective memory of it... As the Muslim world have about when Europe was the biggest player in the area.. And the resentment from many is great about how europe could possible manage to get that rich as we still are, and them selfs as poor as they are today..

Dicloticsn

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Yes and now they are grasping with it

and the backlash against a safety net starts as well.

And yes in Europe being French has a meaning... and that does not include the Colonials that were supposed to go back home after they built the country after WW II. Alas they did not, and they have not been absorbed into the population.

And I am just using France as an example.

[Diclotican]

42. nadinbrzezinski

nadinbrzezinski

I understand you just using France as an example. But your your case, that "the others" rebuild France after world war two is wrong. Because for the most part, they keep away from Europe until we had rebuild and was a possible port of entry for a group of people who desperately wanted another life than the new states made possible. Most of the North African states was not exactly country to have a future in if you was a young man with ideas... And are not that even today...more than 40 year after they got their independence..

And your other point, that they are not absorbed into the population is far more true than your first one. Because for the most part they have NOT be an part of the country they emigrated to. In most cases they are closed into some borough where they do as they want to do, regardless of what the officially law in the country are.. If that have had happened in US, the National Guard, and most of amiable police forces had been put into use to get control, and also to make peace and officially law possible..

Diclotican

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. I know that I have simplified the history of the end

of Colonialism by quite a bit. Did that on purpose. I realize you are VERY familiar with the details of the history and so am I. But most Americans aren't. Hell they are not familiar with their own history or the role of the Marshall plan, the nascent UNHCR, and others in this mess.

So my apologies for the rank simplification. In reality we both could write books on this. And yes, they have been written

[Diclotican]

51. nadinbrzezinski

nadinbrzezinski

I understand, many who doesn't know history have to get it simplified to understand just the basic... I'm not sure I am very familiar with all the history of this age, but I have picket up some on the way then:).. Not to insult americans here on DU, but yes, most americans can't understand the history if you doesn't make it by the tee-spoon.. Not that they doesn't UNDERSTAND it, but rather because they never learned it.. Americans is many things, amazing, nice decent and good people for the most part.. But they doesn't have the "baggage" of more than 2000 year of experience that Europe do have in a collective sence of the word.. And it just doesn't look as even newer history, like the Marshall Plan, who made it possible for Western Europe to survive the first couple of years after world war two.. Specially for country like my own, the Marshall Plan made it possible for thousands to survive the late 1940s, specially the winter of 1947-48 where the grade got down to more than 50 below, in Celsius many places.. We had also an amazing summer in the year 1947, who still have the record for how hot it have been in Norway... 47 grades Celsius in Oslo... (THAT IS HOT!!) For most country who was given loans, and "free gifts" from the US, the Marshall Plan did wonders.. Not just for the industry, but also for the common man, who after 5 year was rather run down for the most part.. Even Norway who had survived the war rather un scared we had many city's who had to be rebuild, and two large parts of our country who had to be rebuild from scratch more or less (Finnmark and Nord-Troms fylke) The germans and the Russians did a hell of job to bomb this two parts of Norway at the end of the war...

Maybe we should write a book about this. Even I am afraid that my english is far form perfect, and I far better to write in Norwegian than in english.

Diclotican

[Alcibiades]

38. There's also been a tradition of patronizing disdain

for the US and our racial issues. Back when Europe was ethnically homogeneous (or most of the individual nations had the illusion of being ethnically homogeneous, which is the same thing), there was a certain attitude that the US was a benighted place, that Europe, for all its problems, didn't have racism the way it existed in the US, or if it did, it was limited to a fringe. Europeans were fond of saying that Europe was much more accepting of black people.

Of course, it turns out, Europe was accepting of black people so long as they were from the first world, didn't intend to set up residence or intermarry with natives, and especially if they had highly sought after skills. As soon as they themselves became host to folks who were likely to stay, maintain their own culture, have their own religion, and speak their own languages, then the supposedly more liberal, more tolerate Europe vanished, and whole classes of people became a "problem."

[Diclotican]

40. Alcibiades

Alcibiades

I absolutely agree, when most of europe still was homogenous, or we belived it to be like that, we was far more accepting of others, than we might be today.. It is a fact that Europe have to find out both on national level, but also on at international level how to manage this, and in most cases also find out how to accepting that we do have a lot of black, and asians in our midst.. Not that I personally have to mutch problems with most of "the others" at all.. Not that Im knowing to many of them, but my mind is set on, as long as they treat me with the same respect as I give them, then I am fine with it. And they who I have worked with, and have known as long as I have lived have been for the most part decent, hardworking and polite peopole who just want to live their life to the best of their abilityes.. They are not thiefs or radicals who want to fight "holy war" in Norway.. Most of them are indeed very glad over the fact that they are in Norway, a peacefully nation where they for the most have been given a welcome they never belived that norwigians could give them..

I hope we can make it true this problems we might have today, and that we do accept "the others". But also that "the others" have to accept that they live in Europe, and have to accept what is the law in the land they are living in. Today we have some groups, few, a minority who dosen't accept either the fact that they live in Europe and the fact that they have to accept the Laws of the country they are living in. As long as they do that, I dosen't care less if they want to worship in their own religion, or talk thir own languaes.. What is important to me, is that they accept some universial facts about where they are living, and maybe even manage to know some of europes history before they jugde us as "the infidels".. If some of "them" emigrated to US, and was not in the business of accepting your history, your culture and your laws, then I might say you also would be some angry about it all too.. And some, a minority who is more loudy than they ever was before, have more or less treatend to overtrow legal law, and the government in favour of Islamic Charia and Islamic law.. For a coupe of year ago a cheik in London more or less treathend the government of mr Blair with uprising (this was long before 11 sept and all what followed then) and also wantet for the day when the Flag of Islam was flying over THE Parlament and nr 10 had a islamic radical as their prime minister... And you might understand that this bold statement made for some fuzz both in UK, and in most of europe.. This was again, long before Al-Qauda was made a real treath to both Eeurope and US.. In fact this was long before US was attaced in Kenya also..

Diclotican

[Alcibiades]

48. You're right, of course

The accommodation you describe is one that must be made in every multiethnic society. Most immigrants assimilate into the dominant culture, and then disappear into it through intermarriage. We have seen social problems arise when that has not happened, though, and these predate the modern era. Some folks, such as the Amish in the US or the Quebecois in Canada, manage to carve out some sort of separate space for themselves, while others flounder, caught between their new identity and their old one, resulting sometimes in immigrants becoming more nationalistic to their country of origin than the people back home are.

Folks who have belief systems that predate the enlightenment are special problems everywhere, though, and they need not be immigrants.

[Diclotican]

53. Alcibiades

Alcibiades

And the fact is that many of the "newer" emigrants, from parts far away from europe doesn't assimilate into the dominant culture. They still want and demand the right to be into their own culture, and to treat their own as THEY fill fit, even when the bigger society doesn't accept or doesn't want this type of behavior.. Many of the "newer" emigrant are not that educated, and in most cases doesn't even speak the language in the different country's very well either.. Have experienced by my self at work, people who have lived here for 10-20 years time, and they can't understand simple suggestion of how to do things.. And they cant a language that most europeans in some degree can either.. German Russian or english (and french off course) Now I am not talking about people from the Balkans, or from Northern Africa, who in most cases in "Old times" was pretty educated and could at least speak french as their second language..

In th 1960s, 1970s and 1980s most who emigrated from other parts of the world to Europe was rather educated people who want a better life for them selfs and their families.. Many was doctors, teachers, and other well educated people who could give back something to where they was emigrating to.. Now we have a lot of uneducated, illiterate people who doesn't want or doesn't cant understand why they cant live as they lived when they was home.. Some year ago, I was working to keep a building up to codes, and one apartment we had to rebuild more or less from scratch because the "new emigrants" there had believed they could use a fireplace inside a apartment. It was a building where you doesn't have build in fireplaces by the way. All electric. They had a sprankling new kitchen, with all modern equipment and never used it. Far better than my own kitchen who is not modern by any means.. Well my owen and my refrigerator is modern, but that is also the end of it:P. They believed that they could use the floor in the living room to build a fireplace and to cook their food there.. Of course the apartment fired up, far better than they believed, and the whole building had to be evacuated when the fire engines was coming to put out the fire... And it was really a mess to clean up, and to rebuild from scratch... The family had off course to be relocated - and almost did the same there too.. They just doesn't understand that you doesn't make a fireplace in the middle of the living room because they doesn't had learned to use the applications in the kitchen.. I would not even told where they believed the bathroom was, and how to relive them selfs.. That story is to disgusting to even tell..

When you have two different "world" who collide, then you have problems.. Big problems also. And that is in many cases the case so to speak. In Europe we have build a type of world, and when others who never have experiences "our world" is coming here, and for the most part just put into a home, a apartment or house and everyone believe they know ho to use things.. Things can go rather bad. As my history with the fireplace in the living room.. Sometimes I believe it is far better to help people where they are, then to help them "here". Not because I am against black or are an racist but because I more or less have coming to the conclusion that sometimes it is far better to help people in a environment they know, and where they them self can build up a society on their own. Many who need refugee from bad regimes is given that, but it is millions of people who really need it who never will be given that shoice... And millions will die of diseases who is curable today too... And I am all for helping them where they are today, to give them shelter, food, medicines and hopefully a better future than they do have today.. But I am not that in love with the emigration who I can go out of control. In some country like in Greece, Italy and France millions live, undocumented and without both the protection of the law, but also the limits of the law.. The backlash is that this millions Will be victims of racism, hate groups and other groups who want them out, and doesn't care if they have lived here all their life, or have documents that prove they are citizen of a country...

Hate groups, is bad and on the rise in many european country. That is definitely danger to the peace we all have experienced the last 60 year.. To Europe to be, 60 year with more or less peace over most of the continent is rather historical.. I am not sure how to stop the rise of hate groups. Or to stop the emigration who is illegal in most country. Have NO problem with legal emigration to European country.. But the illegal type of emigration I am absolutely against, and I hope the government hit hard against it. Not just the single people who happened to be illegal emigrates.. But also to they who is more or less trading in this, and where most of the money is ending.. The same problem have US too on their southern border if I'm not wrong..

Diclotican

[SoCalDem]

37. It's in our DNA to cluster with "our own" and to fear "the other"

Society tries repeatedly to overcome the instinct to huddle with our own, but every time there is a crisis, the ugly bubbles to the surface.. It never changes..and we don't either.. we just learn to mask it in "polite society".

[Diclotican]

41. SoCalDem

SoCalDem

It is far safer inside the "tribe" than outside.. And most of Europe is still a group of "tribes" now nations who for the most part have feared "the others" in history.. Norway have for the most part always feared the Swedes, even tho we have the same religion, and almost speak the same language - on the other side we are good friends with the danish, who in more than 500 year ruled us, and even plundered our old heritage when the reformation was made officially policy in 1537..

But compared to the "old days" when the "tribe" was the institution of choice, we have a larger area for the most part, but the same idea, that we as "tribe" on a larger scale inside a nation is there even today.. And we fear the "others" even tho they for the most part are no danger for us anyway...


Diclotican

[Romulox]

45. So you destroy the tribe and replace it with...what?

Social darwinism and jingoism (as in these United States)? :shrug:

[Diclotican]

54. Romulox

Romulox

The US is an amazing experient compared to most other country on the face on the planet. And it have from the beginning beeing something of a "magnet" for everyone who wanted a better life for themself and their family for houndred of years.. More than half the norwigian population between 1820 and 1914 emigrated to US and more than 8 million americans have today ancestory from Norway.. TWICE the population of Norway today.. And the same is the case in most european contry where dirt poor workers just wanted out of old regimes who dosen't get that the new day was there and they wanted better life in the future.. Even my grand father allmoust emigrated to US, becouse he wanted something else for himself.. But then th 1930s hit him hard, and the whole thing had to be pro-sponded.. And then the world war two thing also happend, And he had a wife and two children - my uncle and father to care for.. The emigrating to US never happend, and to my knowlegde my grandfather was never in the US.. But he was dreaming the dream for a while:)

I am not sure if Social darwinism wil be the end in the US in the future.. But I guess even US could learn something from Europe sometimes?

Diclotican

[Romulox]

55. Hi Diclotican

I appreciate your response. My relatives emigrated from their home countries mostly to escape famine and poverty. I am certain that most of them would have preferred to remain among their families and homes given the choice. What is so distressing is that much of the worst aspects of what they were fleeing (inequality, worker exploitation, racial/ethnic hatred) is now what characterizes the so much of the US. And at the same time, as one of their descendants, to observe how much farther Europe has progressed compared to the so-called "new world" is a bitter irony indeed.

So, yes, indeed. The US has so much to learn from Europe! :toast:

[Diclotican]

58. Romulox

Romulox

Most europeans who emigrated to the US would have been with their family and friends if they had a choice. But for the most part they did not had that.. In the 1800s Europe was a horrible place to be if you was near the bottom on the "letter" And it was more or less "public policy" for many europeans country to send this to the US, so they get rid of them, troublemakers as they were.. Making demand for workers rights and so on.. Better to get them shiped out and over to be some elses problem.. Even Australia was some send to, and most of it paid for by the government

The irony at this is maybe that the US government and private business have doing far more damage to the right of the "Little man" than the old regimes in Europe possible could do even if they wanted to.. In Europe it was the fear, specially after 1848 when the great revolution, who for the most part was put down by violence in fact started many of the social-democratic and socialistic party who less than 100 year after had most of the power in Europe.. The more or less fanatical fear of everything that resembled "workers right" in the US is one of the reason that the US at this time have the big problems they have.. The BIG business, and their counterparts in law enforcement and government have been great in scaring the hell out of the "Little man" when it came to workers right than was possible in europe.. Even the idea of organizing people is something that most americans is scared off.. It is far better to have 43 million dirt poor americans, than to fight together to keep work, and to keep houses for some reason.. And the whole show about public healtcare. Can't understand that americans cant see that they WILL benefit in a system where you can get help, medical help when they need it, without have to sell all you own and then have a great bill to pay for the luxury of removing your penix...

I WOULD say both US and Europe have a lot to learn of eatchother.. But for the moment I am afraid maybe US have a lot more to learn of Europe, than Europe have to learn from US...

Diclotican

[SoCalDem]

60. That's the prickly issue we have lived with forever.

and I'm not sure how it's eventually resolved. I guess as long as individuality is claimed on one level, but then abandoned on another, as people hyphenate themselves & cling to their "heritage", we'll never really "get there".

It's a puzzler, since we need to be cohesive to succeed, but then success itself can be defined so differently. Some groups would label a tight-knit community where their native customs are adhered to..their foods, their culture, their faith, their style of dress, as a success...and another might consider that same mélange as utter failure to assimilate..

The second-genners usually "solve" the problems, but even fully immersed in the prevailing society, they often feel the pull of the elders, to honor their heritage.

It's a problem we (and most all countries) have always had, and it may be that we can all live together happily...sometimes..but not always, and have to just accept the fact.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Here's my problem with what you posted

and I am not going to defend the RIGHT WING of Islam either...

(Like all religions they have right wingers, left wingers and all in between)... is that what you wrote, could have easily been written about Jews in the 1930s, or for god sakes, Muslims in Bosnia.

See my problem? You understand my small issue here?

Oh and yes, the Saudis are assholes... okay... but to say that 1.5 billion people are right wing assholes is missing the picture.

[imdjh]

13. Could you lay out the comparison to Jews in the 1930's with some specificity. It seems a stretch.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. It is not a stretch

here is the creation of the other

http://racism.suite101.com/article.cfm/definition_of_racism_other_terms

http://www.un.org/WCAR/e-kit/backgrounder1.htm

This is just a more innocent form than the Nuremberg Laws, or any other radical form of ghettos and other actions to isolate the other.

[imdjh]

19. I meant comparing Muslim immigrants and first generation citizens to German Jews...

... who had been German subjects or citizens for centuries. I meant how you see the reaction to the Muslim crime problems and attacks on the natives and the culture with insular merchant class German Jews.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. IT is the creation of the other

and it comes from the same place in the culture.

By the way those same German Jews were not fully assimilated by the culture or accepted as German. Why creating the other was so damn easy in Europe. Here is more, in spite of the Holocaust, there are areas in Europe where they are not accepted still. This is no different... just a more recent population. Oh and these people are refugees from Bosnia, where they've lived for ahem CENTURIES. how did that end?

Yes, I have very little toleerance for this. In fact my tolerance is down to zero.

[scarletwoman]

20. +1

[Touchdown]

50. +1 The problem with right wing religionists, is the tolerance of their behavior...

by those who on this board like to segmentize them into little factions of "good", "moderate" and "fundamentalist", ignoring the fact that membership in Islam, or Christianity for that matter gives power to the strident. Nobody speaks up. Nobody does anything about the rightward and at times violent turn. Instead, we get simplistic knee jerk slogans like "They're not real Christians". The liberal and moderate Christians and Muslims are part of the problem, because they allow the hate and the fanaticism to continue. They only people they fight back against is anybody who would question their religion.

No criticism for 2 decades of Sharia muslims committing violence against women, gays, atheists, jews, etc. in a tolerant host country, but The Swiss ban minarets and well, now they went too far. No criticism of them refusing to assimilate into their new homes, but claiming freedom of religion to actively change the laws in their new host country to more resemble the oppressive theocracy they originally fled, and when the Europeans fight back against that, all Hell breaks loose.

[Flaneur]

18. You post hideous racialist right wing propaganda.

And you claim to be concerned about right wing Islam? I smell something uglier.

[imdjh]

21. you are ignoring this user

[parkia00]

36. Well coming from the same person...

who have posted such wonderful tidbits concerning the Palestinian here in the forums such as

-wanting to depopulate Palestinian "forfeited territory" as a final solution

-There are no (Palestinian) civilians so they are all valid targets I assume?

Don't be too surprised that more swill will be churned out.

On an other note, why is this vote important? I mean, come on, it's just minarets right? Well all journeys start with a first step. Including journeys that take you to the bottom of a large deep pit. The minaret issue is a first step and it will not be the last. Any level headed decent person who sees those posters will sense something deeper that is wrong with them. Just change the symbols for Islam to Judaism and the minarets to synagogues and suddenly a lot more people would realise that Europe has been led into this same deep pit before. Why did the right go on this journey? It would be very difficult to fully get what they want. Immigrants out. People who are different out etc... same formula as many right wing philosophies. Maybe they want to stroke the ambers in the hope they will get a Reichstag fire. It is far easier to convince a frightened crowd to follow a set path to save them from perceived enemies; especially if the enemies are "different" from you.

[KamaAina]

49. How is "The Voice of Conservatism in Europe" an acceptable source for DU?

That's what it says, right on the Brussels Journal's masthead. :eyes:

[eShirl]

52. any religion can potentially be/become a right wing movement in some places

christianity, islam, hinduism... for just a few current examples I can think of

[hedgehog]

59. I'm not sure I'd trust a blog posted from the Brussels Journal - self described

as the voice of conservatism in Europe.

[JVS]

12. Banning minarets is a lot like English as an official language proposals, or as the term "Deutsche..

Leitkultur" (German Lead Culture) developed in Germany in the last decade. What is especially odd is that there is this demand for an immigrant population to attempt to integrate, but the culture is historically hostile toward the same immigrants when attempts to integrate have happened.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Exactly which the US actually does

integrate immigrants... hence a lot less troubles.

[1]

14. isn't everything they do over there so much better than we do here? so is this a good thing, right?

because they do it over there?

i am confused. they are not americans. that makes whatever they do better, right?

so if they do this it must be better that what americans would do, right?

help me out here...

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. You forgot the sarcasm tag, now didn't you

Here, for ya

:sarcasm:

[1]

26. now i'm even more confused...

[Libertas1776]

28. Speaking of the Swiss right wing campaign against the OTHER...

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Hmm where have I seen that before?

Oh yes, Der Stormtruper...

Innocent my ass...

[dysfunctional press]

30. should the neighboring countries and the world start worrying about the swiss military machine?

and could a blitzkrieg really work if the invading huns are riding bikes and brandishing pocket knives?

[imdjh]

31. Lichtenstein is on alert.

[Diclotican]

43. dysfunctional press

dysfunctional press

Mybe they should fear the Swiss Army Knife, who are famous for beeing a tool for every need?

I doubt that the Swiss want to go the same way as the Germans did in the 1930s, This is not the end of the world. And it is not the same as muslims in Sweitz wil end up as dead persons in the sweitz consentration camps either..

Diclotican

[dysfunctional press]

62. wow.

i keep forgetting that there are some people so thick that without the :sarcasm: smilie, they can't recognize it.

sorry- my bad.

[Diclotican]

63. dysfunctional press

dysfunctional press

Irony is a fine tuned tool, when used properly is very good. But when it come to text only sometimes a :sarcasm: smile is the best tool ... Im not sure that Im that thick, but yes, I do have some problems sometimes to read irony.. Even tho Im a verry good user of irony in my life...

Diclotican

[BlueMTexpat]

32. I live in western Switzerland. In the three westernmost cantons,

Geneva, Vaud and Neuchatel, which are traditionally the most liberal, tolerant and welcoming in Switzerland, the majority of voters were against the ban. There is significant shame, embarrassment and soul-searching happening right now and I am sure that will continue. The Swiss federal government was strongly against the ban; it was the ultimately successful creation of a very right-wing political party that is every bit as scary as any Islamist zealots are. They are the so-called "Christian" equivalent of Islamist fanatics.
Why did the initiative succeed? Yes, there were many who were definitely made to fear the Other (truly misleading posters and rhetoric were featured prominently), but the wording of the vote may have been confusing to many who did not actually intend to vote against minarets. The vote to allow minarets was actually supposed to be "No" whereas the vote to ban them was "Yes."
Their RW may have learned something about wording referenda from the success of our own RW zealots in California. Or vice versa. Hatred and ignorance are not confined to any one region of the world nor to any single religion. Unfortunately.

**********
I personally believe that minarets are architecturally beautiful, like bell towers on a cathedral, which I appreciate from an esthetic perspective even though I personally do not practice any institutionalized religion. The call to prayer is not now and would not have been exercised whether the minarets were built or not. In fact, as some posters here have mentioned, cathedral bells ring a lot louder and could be considered as disruptive of any "peace" as the call to prayers from a minaret. Having also resided in Muslim countries, however, I generally have found the call to prayer to be as lovely as the sound of some cathedral bells.

Either one is tolerant or one is not. This vote result is clearly anti-tolerant and will lead to a succession of events down a very slippery slope. As things now stand, the result must be incorporated into the Swiss Constitution and enacted into law. I expect that there could be some legal challenges prior to that. It will be interesting, to say the least.

[cali]

33. thank you very much for your informed and informative post.

[Number23]

34. Beautiful, beautiful post.

Hatred and ignorance are not confined to any one region of the world nor to any single religion. Unfortunately.

Makes the incident with idiotic doctors in blackface in my own neck of the woods recently seem much less significant, though no less embarrassing. The comments in this thread re: Islam would have alarmed me a few years ago. Now I know better.

Either one is tolerant or one is not.

Exactly.

[BlueMTexpat]

35. Thanks to both you and cali for the kind words of support.

This result may actually provide some "teachable" moments that can benefit all, both here in Switzerland and elsewhere. After all, if the ban had not succeeded, this ugly and frightening dark side of the human condition in this very beautiful country would not have been revealed to the world, but would have gone underground and may actually have gained strength there. In a way, it's better to have the dark side out in the open for all to see so that it can be faced for what it is, shown for the awfulness it represents, and, hopefully, neutered.
Education and cultural exchanges to promote understanding are clearly key.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Thanks for the inside view

In some functional ways, though more obvious in the architecture, not different than oh Prop 8 in California. We all create the other, and we all need to fight it.

I have no idea how it works for you, but the fight continues.

:hi:

I got your back, symbolically.

[BlueMTexpat]

57. Exactly ... and thanks! n/t

[Karenina]

47. . .

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

56. it's no more ridiculous than "freedom fries"

really. Except that minarets are much more beautiful.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Them cute freedom fries are in the same

continuum of the creation of the other. So I would not call it either funny or ridiculous. It is dangerous at a certain level that most people miss.