Switzerland has banned minarets on buildings..

[Peacetrain]

Being talked about on NBC news now.. the uber right wing of Switzerland has won a big victory... Very surprising and unsettling.

edit to add: It passed with 57% of the vote..

[trof]

1. Next...crosses.

Ya reckon?

[Peacetrain]

4. Well there is a huge anti Islamic sentiment going across Europe..

that kind of mirrors with what happened to the Jews in the 30's... that fear of a group.

[imdjh]

78. Really? Google "Jewish violence in Europe" and then tell me how similar it is.

[Jack Rabbit]

29. Oh, yes, crosses

A society that would ban minarets would burn crosses.

[bertman]

65. That's fine with me. Maybe then the religious insanity would abate a bit.

[arcadian]

2. A lot of UN offices in Geneva.

[cali]

3. that's fucked up.

[Peacetrain]

5. Highly surprising .. to say the least

[Swamp Rat]

6. Just plain stupid.

I guess the Swiss can be just as dumb as anyone else.

[Peacetrain]

7. We seem to be coming out of the right wing nightmare and the rest of the world is

going into it

[The Wielding Truth]

13. I thought you were talking about me. I had to look up - minaret.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minaret

Here's the info for any other dummies.

Minarets (Turkish: minare,<1> from Arabic manāra (lighthouse) منارة, usually مئذنة) are distinctive architectural features of Islamic mosques. Minarets are generally tall spires with onion-shaped or conical crowns, usually either free standing or taller than any associated support structure.



As well as providing a visual cue to a Muslim community, the main function of the minaret is to provide a vantage point from which the call to prayer (adhan) is made. Call to prayer in Islam happens five times each day. These times are at sunrise, noon, day, sundown, and evening. In most modern mosques, the adhan is called not from the minaret but from the musallah, or prayer hall, via a microphone and speaker system.

Minarets also function as air conditioning mechanisms: as the sun heats the dome, air is drawn in through open windows then up and out of the minaret, thereby providing natural ventilation.


Gee, because of the ventilation function, I would think that this will be overturned.

[Jamastiene]

8. Of all the most ridiculous things to ban...

:confused:

[Peacetrain]

12. It looks as if there is a very strong right wing movement that has taken

this up as their cause..the "others" are a danger to us. I have to agree, of all the dumb things to ban..

[MercutioATC]

9. Are current minarets grandfathered?

...or is this a complete purge?

[Jim__]

10. Yes, they are.

Existing minarets can stay.

[inna]

11. what's the reasoning behind the ban? is there a link?

min⋅a⋅ret

–noun a lofty, often slender, tower or turret attached to a mosque, surrounded by or furnished with one or more balconies, from which the muezzin calls the people to prayer.

Origin:
1675–85; < F minaret, Sp minarete, or It minaretto ≪ Ar manārah lighthouse, perh. akin to nār fire

Related forms:
min⋅a⋅ret⋅ed, adjective

Dictionary.com

[Peacetrain]

14. It was on the NBC nightly news...

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. That's just bizarre; there are only 4 of them in the whole country

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/29/switzerland-bans-mosque-minarets

[Peacetrain]

16. This was about half way down the article you linked and basically says it all

Across Europe, far-right parties have been scoring gains in recent years on anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant platforms.

[redwitch]

17. More governemnt officials being pointless and ignorant.

This will accomplish what?

[Peacetrain]

18. Besides looking completely stupid.. (I think Switzerland got "bushed")

I have not a clue. Just goes to show, stupid knows no borders or boundaries. It is a universal state of mind.

[JVS]

21. Actually according to the news article in the other thread, government officials opposed this...

but the public voted for it.

[redwitch]

23. Oh. That makes it even worse.

You can't vote
"the people" out of office.

[A HERETIC I AM]

19. Solidly biting my tongue on this one.

Hard, being a heretic and all.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

20. I applaud them! Crucifixes were banned in the classrooms of Switzerland not long ago

Religion should be taken inside. It should not be forced on others.

[redwitch]

24. Oh for heaven's sake!

I don't ever look at a church or synagogue or mosque and feel forced to do anything.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

27. I'm completely in favor of separations of church and state - the more, the better

I think religions do a great deal of harm. Most of them, anyway.

[kirby]

35. Apples vs Oranges...

While I agree with your separation argument, it does not apply in this case whatsoever. This is a Government passing a law to ban certain religious architecture on private buildings. These are not government buildings. Basically, it is like changing the local zoning laws to target a specific religion.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

37. So are you saying that all religious architecture should be banned at the same time?

Are you saying they should not have started with banning minarets? Why not?

[kirby]

45. No...

I am saying that you mentioned separation of church and state as a principle, but that really has nothing to do with banning of religious architecture. This action is pure discrimination against an architecture that is part of a specific religion.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

47. So you're saying that if this was the first religious architecture that was banned, that's wrong?

Why?

And why can't countries and cities control the architecture of their place? Switzerland has a certain look. It always has. I'm sure they want to keep it looking that way, and not have it looking like Saudi Arabia.

[kirby]

49. I'm saying...

I'm saying that the banning of minarets has nothing to do with preserving a certain look of Switzerland and everything to do with anti-Islamic hatred which has been growing recently.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

50. That's your belief. But honestly, if they don't want minarets sticking out from between those Swiss

chalets, it's their prerogative.

[riderinthestorm]

54. I'm curious, is there any kind of exit polling on the reasons people voted the way they did?

Switzerland is a tourist area that relies heavily on it's "medieval" look. Many old cities have architectural planning commissions that won't allow certain kinds of buildings to be built in order to preserve the area's history/culture/look/ambience/commercial appeal....

I have no doubt that there was a certain percentage of people who voted against minarets because they are bigoted idiots, but you can't say preservationists had "nothing" to do with this vote. If there's an exit poll that proves your point, I'd love to look at it.

Otherwise dismiss medieval architectural preservationists at your peril. My daugher is a medieval archaeologist, studying for her PhD right now in medieval achaeology - they are a fanatic bunch and any resistance to a modern mosque complete with minaret would have absolutely zero to do with religion.

[imdjh]

77. something like that

Although the minarets towers on Switzerland’s 160 mosques do not broadcast calls to prayer, Ulrich Schlueer, one of the organizations of the referendum, said, "Forced marriages and other things like cemeteries separating the pure and impure — we don't have that in Switzerland, and we do not want to introduce it.”

The campaign against the minarets featured a poster showing a woman in a burka, the Muslim dress that covers the body from neck to toe, with a background of minarets in the shape of missiles.

Swiss Justice Minister Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf, who opposed the ban, told the Swissinfro.ch website, “Its supporters say they are against minarets. But they want to fight what they consider creeping Islamicization and Sharia law.”

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/134681

[scarletwoman]

79. I would certainly support fighting against Sharia law, myself.

"Forced marriages and other things like cemeteries separating the pure and impure — we don't have that in Switzerland, and we do not want to introduce it."

I don't blame them one bit. Why should a 21st century modern society tolerate 7th century tribal mores? If people want to live in that kind of culture, let them stay where it's practiced.

sw

[aquart]

53. Sigh.

That may be because you're an American and our Founding Fathers took a very strict stand on the issue of separation of Church and State.

Also because this country never fought a religious war. Whereas Europe has. Repeatedly.

Europe carries very different baggage on this issue than we do.

[redwitch]

68. I'm glad they did.

n/t

[Peacetrain]

25. Uhhh this is a building.. not in a classroom.. It would be like banning bells in the steeples

:shrug:..

[Sarah Ibarruri]

30. I don't care. Religion needs to be kept personal.

I don't want it shoved in my face.

[Peacetrain]

31. How do you keep a building personal?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

34. I don't want any displays of religion out there.

That includes crosses, minarets, or whatever your particular religion's symbolism includes.

[Peacetrain]

38. Well on that we have to disagree... I wear a cross..but it is nothing against you

and is all about me and my commitment. I think others have the same right, including Muslims, Atheists, Buddhists..etc etc etc.. I do not want to live in a gray world where I would fear to show who I am or others could not show who they are.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

40. I live in a city where architecture does have a say on what architecture is permissible

and which not, and I'm all for rejecting all religious architecture.

[Peacetrain]

43. Again I disagree with that.. makes no sense to me.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

44. Maybe not, but architecture is controlled in many places

Also, I'm not too fond of religions. The history of most religions is rather ugly.

[redwitch]

56. Notre Dame? St Paul's?

The Sistine Chapel? St. Sophia? St. Patrick's? Should they all come down?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. Aventura, Florida is an architectural shit-hole.

You've got nothing to be proud of.

[The Straight Story]

75. Sad that your mind is so easily rattled/scared that a building gets to you so much (nt)

[scarletwoman]

76. That's a rather assholish ad hominen attack on someone who sees things differently than you do.

Maybe you need to mind your own mind.

[The Straight Story]

88. Seeing things differently by blanket condemnations against others (religion) I see as bigotry

Reminds me of something I could see happening with the rw "I don't want any rainbow flags on buildings, it promotes something I don't like".

[proteus_lives]

89. So you'd destroy all the churches, mosques and temples in the world?

[Crunchy Frog]

51. Are you planning on urging the Europeans to take a wrecking ball

to all of their old architecture, going back centuries? You certainly would never want to travel there and risk running into some old Gothic cathedral or something horrible like that. :eyes:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

52. No, but if they don't want minarets peeking out from towns of Swiss chalets and typical

architecture, it sure as hell is their prerogative.

[riderinthestorm]

55. The Swiss have every right to choose how to preserve their cultural heritage

including religious buildings. Switzerland is famous for it's "old architecture". I'm sure they want to keep that "look" - it's a tourist thing, a heritage thing, a pride thing, a historical thing... and probably has nothing to do with religion at all.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And the Nazis were just trying preserve their rich genetic heritage and proud Aryan history.

[Crunchy Frog]

86. That wasn't the argument she was making.

She was arguing that religious architecture is bad and should be gotten rid of. I was just asking if she would take this argument to its logical conclusion.

[Speck Tater]

22. Next thing you know Muslim countries will ban Christian churches.... Oh wait. They already do!

Muslims have nothing to complain about until they stop discriminating against Secular/Christian/Jewish/Buddhist/Hindu believers in their own countries. And so far, Muslim countries show ZERO tolerance of other religions, so why should anybody else bend over backwards for them? They can dish it out but they can't take it.

On Edit: Where's the damned outrage against Muslim countries who have the death penalty for converting to any non-Muslim belief? We're all full of outrage against one country's intolerance but turn a blind eye to another's? That's so hypocritical!

[Peacetrain]

26. Speck... I wear a cross and you would have to burn it off me

before I would be "forced" to take it off. But this is a building. Just because the Taliban clerics were asshats, does not mean the rest of us have to repeat their behaviors..

[Speck Tater]

42. I'm an atheist and I would die defending your right to wear your cross.

The problem here is that Muslims are expecting privileges in another country that they are NOT willing to grant in their own countries. There is such a thing as being taken advantage of, and such a thing as being played for a fool. European countries are being played for suckers and they are afraid to say anything about it because some Muslims threaten them with violence if they don't comply.

Where's the parity since there don't seem to be any Christian (or Hindu or Buddhist or Secular) groups threatening Muslim countries with violence if they say anything anti-Christian (or anti-Hindu, etc). It's a grossly asymmetrical situation which if allowed to continue unchecked will continue to give Islam a strong Darwinian survival advantage in displacing all other religions in Europe. What would become of our sacred freedom of religion then?

History shows that once Islam takes firm root as a majority religion in a country it's violent intolerance of other religions makes it nearly impossible to displace. As long as we are afraid, either due to threats of violence, or due to "Political Correctness", to resist the spread of intolerance, then intolerance will continue to spread.

The delicate problem is that we, ourselves, need to be intolerant of intolerance, and I don't see the will in this thread to be intolerant of intolerance. Instead, I see people willing to tolerate intolerance until that intolerance gains enough leverage to stamp out the opposition (you and me). There are some things we simply should NOT tolerate, and violent repression of our religious freedoms is one of those things, along with any people who advocate or lobby for violent repression of our religious freedoms. Even if that movement to violently repress our freedom of religion comes in the guise of a religion itself.

[cali]

46. most Swiss Muslims immigrated from Bosnia and Croatia

there certainly are churches in those places.

[wuushew]

59. Are you implying Islam has no place in Europe?

That is a rather intolerant and broad-brushed view. I see no harm in constructing minarets in Switzerland. I value people's contemporary happiness over the unfounded dark fears of the future. Also I would like to think that people and cultures are not reducible to some anthropological formula which is then used to engineer a "perfect" society.

[nomorenomore08]

66. +1

nt

[scarletwoman]

67. "I see no harm in constructing minarets in Switzerland." Well, apparently 57% of Swiss citizens

disagree with you. I'd say their opinion about what they want for their own country outweighs yours.

I don't see the problem; if the Swiss don't want to accomodate Muslim immigrants, they are under no obligation to do so.

sw

[nomorenomore08]

32. And just how much do the Muslims living in Switzerland, including the Swiss-born

children of immigrants, have to do with that? You seem to be conflating together all Muslims in a sort of collective blame, which I don't understand at all. And you also conflate together all "Muslim countries," as if there were no difference between say, Saudi Arabia and Indonesia.

[treestar]

39. That's overstating it

Besides, what good it being that way in the west going to do?

[Sultana]

73. [phone]

:headbang:

[JI7]

84. because we claim to be a free country while they are theocratic

[Douglas Carpenter]

85. nonsense!! the vast majority of Muslim countries do have Christian churches

in fact Saudi Arabia is the only exception, I can think of

[dustbunnie]

28. It isn't just coming from the right. And it's not a new sentiment.

From the Guardian article:

"The prohibition also found substantial support on the left and among secularists worried about the status of women in Islamic cultures. Prominent feminists attacked minarets as male power symbols, deplored the oppression of Muslim women, and urged a vote for the ban."

[pitohui]

33. saw that earlier...i thought that was just plain weird

sometimes i wonder abt democracy...

[riderinthestorm]

36. Uhm, isn't this architecture? Mosques aren't banned, just minarets.

The purpose of the minaret was/is to call Muslims to prayer 5 times/day. I know that doesn't necessarily happen in the west where mosques with minarets have been built but the reason for minarets is moot in secular western countries where that kind of public loudspeaker 5 times/day would be disallowed.

There's this hideous mosque on Rt. 55 west of Chicago - a big box with a minaret in one corner. THAT minaret is atrocious. There's an absolutely stunning mosque on Rt. 53 in Lisle that has no minaret and is fantastic architecture.

I see this as about Europe's old architecture and an area's cultural history and trying to preserve that (which is a big deal in Europe too) than some simple anti-Islamic bashing. :shrug:

[krabigirl]

82. Well, sorry, if enough Islamic people live there, then their culture is changing.

Come on, there are only four of these in the entire country!

[treestar]

41. That's just plain old stupid

If they banned crosses, it wouldn't mean people weren't Christian and it would give them fodder for claiming persecution. Same result here.

[DonCoquixote]

48. Ridiculous!

Many buildings have used religious architecture without being remotely religious. This is bigotry hidden under a veil of culture.

[anonymous171]

57. Europe goes to the right when things go sour, America to the left.

It's almost like FDR and Hitler all over again (except much much much less extreme.)

[Honeycombe8]

58. What's a minaret? nt

[JVS]

60. They grow up to be Majorettes.

[Honeycombe8]

61. LOL! nt

[AwakeAtLast]

69. DUzy!

That was hilarious! :rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

62. Tall spires, usually built on the corners of mosques.

For some reason, a lot of people pronounce them "mini-arets" and misspell them as well.

[slipslidingaway]

70. Picture - Blue Mosque in Istanbul

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_Ahmed_Mosque#Minarets

[Quantess]

71. I had to look it up. Here's a photo:

[Quantess]

72. The people have spoken. Who are we to judge the Swiss for that?

[Sultana]

74. Good for the Swiss

....and yes, they have the right to make their own laws.

[jberryhill]

80. Prop. 8 Supporter Much? /nt

[krabigirl]

81. Yikes. This is very sad. ro

The people may have "spoken," but wow, these people are afraid of change. Not much different than the Teabagger mindset here about immigrants.

[bridgit]

83. It is not incumbent upon the Swiss to supply "minarets" to the minaret-inclined of the world

[bridgit]

87. ^