Twilight sequel New Moon is anti-feminist, claims professor

[The Straight Story]

Twilight sequel New Moon is anti-feminist, claims professor
New Moon, the Twilight sequel, is an anti-feminist film that reinforces gender sterotypes to a "scary" extent, according to a professor of gender studies.


The movie, starring Robert Pattinson as vampire Edward Cullen and Kristen Stewart as the lovelorn Bella Swan, has broken box office records since its release last week.

However, New Moon's detractors claim it is far more sexist than the first Twilight film, which was directed by a woman, Catherine Hardwicke. The sequel is directed by Chris Weitz and sticks closely to the source books, written by Mormon Stephenie Meyer.


Carmen Siering, assistant professor of English and women's studies at Ball State University, said: "With just a moment of critical analysis, feminists can't be too happy about how the latest episode in the Twilight series, adapted from Stephenie Meyer's popular books, represents a young woman and her place in the modern world. In fact, the New film is really just more of the same, only worse."

Bella is a passive character who remains in thrall to the "overbearing" Edward even after he dumps her, Siering said.

Writing in the feminist Ms Magazine, she claimed: "In fact, just moments after Edward leaves her, Bella stumbles in the woods and refuses to get up, lying in the muck until a strong, bare-chested man carries her out. Later, we see her sitting in her room, staring out the window, as the months roll by. When she isn’t sitting and staring, she is in bed having nightmares. Very empowering.

...

Sieber concluded: "This is a film full of gender stereotypes—testosterone-driven male aggression, females who pine away over lost loves, boys who fix motorcycles and the girls who watch them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/celebritynews/6643530/Twilight-sequel-New-Moon-is-anti-feminist-claims-professor.html

If I want preaching, I will go to church. If I want political messages, I will watch CSPAN or the news.

If I want entertainment I watch movies (or read DU).

Sometimes I think people over analyze things (myself included at times).

[BolivarianHero]

1. Very plausible...

The author of the series is a Mormon.

[MichaelHarris]

2. complete

Mormon drivel, I encourage everyone to boycott these crap movies. I already have to deal with faith-based revisionist history I don't need it from Hollywood.

[get the red out]

3. Endorses sick thinking

It seems to endorse all the sick relationship stuff people DON'T want young women to think of as "normal" or "positive".

I hate this crap, just another assault on women trying to put us back in our place. Disgusting.

[The Straight Story]

5. Why do you think so many people love the books/movies?

Not my cup of tea personally, but appears to be so for a lot of folks.

Why?

[Oregone]

11. Because a lot of people are 12 and they have kindergarten crushes on pale-skinned boys

I have never talked to a normal adult that thought the movie was worth a shit. No idea on the books

[Codeine]

18. Unfortunately

an enormous section of the fanbase for those stupid-ass books is adult women; I work with a number of them. I actually tried reading the first one and it is some seriously illiterate tripe.

Adults becoming fans of children's literature is part and parcel of the infantalization of American culture. I really find it quite creepy and not a little sad.

[XemaSab]

80. I think there's some very well written children's literature

However, I think there is a problem with literature in this country that this is symptomatic of.

[paulsby]

89. adults have long been fans of childrens literature

the hobbit for example, was written as a children's book according to tolkien. it doesn't make me like it any less as an adult.

it's a book clearly written for teens, or maybe those young at heart.

i liked the books and like the movies. and no, i am not a teenage girl. i analogize it with food. i like haute cuisine and complex flavors. i also like a simple burger and fries. this movie is burger and fries.

[marshall]

108. Isn't this the standard for any romance novel?

Barbara Cartland, et al, had a formula that was quite successful. This is just a vampire twist on that.

[Warren DeMontague]

13. Because you have all these fundies walking around in this haze of sexually repressed desire.

They need to get over it.

[bettyellen]

23. because it tells every little girl that maybe the boy who's an ass to her has a good reason to be

and that maybe even if they can't be or aren't ever together there's some mystical reason evne though this crush was the one.
also that a super hot exciting guy with everytghing going on falls in love with an average loooking whiny cranky bitch.
seriously screwed up stuff.

[paulsby]

90. what crap

have you ever read romeo and juliet for pete's sake?

the idea of a woman (or man) becoming paralyzed and even suicidal because a lover dumped them, betrayed them, or was believed to , is a pretty common theme in literature.

i don't give a flying fuck is meyer is a mormon, an animist, a hindu, or if she worships the flying spaghetti monster. i enjoyed the books, enjoyed the movie.

[Arkana]

26. Because a lot of people are stupid?

That would be my guess.

Stephenie Meyer is a creepy, lonely Mormon housewife who wrote a shitty series of books starring herself as Bella "Mary Sue" Swan and the PERFECT OMG OMG OMG MAN, Edward Cullen. It might as well be called "Stephenie Meyer's LiveJournal".

EDIT: It gratifies me to no end that Robert Pattinson (and to some extent, Kristen Stewart) hate the books, hate the movies, hate their characters, and think Stephenie Meyer is creepy as all hell. Pattinson more or less said he took the role to advance his career, not because he thought the script was worth anything.

[juno jones]

38. Vampires.

For the last several years there has been an entire genre of vampire novels and writings produced.

Anne Rice no doubt started it all, and Poppy Z. Brite is probably one of the best known (and better) authors in this new(er) genre.

Basically they seem to be in the process of replacing old fashioned bodice ripper women's romance novels with gothic vampire stuff. Nothing too new. Remember Dark Shadows?

I never liked traditional romance novels because they often featured a pining, isolated girl who was fixated on a rogue who was never there. Shit, that's why I despised Wuthering Heights. Goth Vampires and all their baggage just up the bad boy factor.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out the mormon writer of this series has issues.

[phasma ex machina]

61. A good question that many bright people will attempt to answer in the near future

as they try to cash in on the Twilight phenomena. The history of such copy-cat ventures indicates that few, if any, will find the true answer.

[paulsby]

91. does romeo and juliet endores "sick thinking"?

no. it's a frigging over the top love story. so are these books.
oh noes! it's an assault on women!

[monmouth]

4. I'm a femnist from way back in the day, and sorry, I've pined over a lost

love, knew many testosterone-driven males and loved to watch guys fix cars. Wow, this critique is way off in my book.

[sendero]

63. The level of don't get it ness..

... about women here has always been astounding.

The reason they like these fantasies couldn't be more obvious.

[omega minimo]

6. So it's not worth you considering what the author is saying, even though you've presented it here

for consideration ... or an excuse for derision?


"If I want preaching, I will go to church. If I want political messages, I will watch CSPAN or the news.

"If I want entertainment I watch movies (or read DU).

"Sometimes I think people over analyze things (myself included at times)."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. Sometimes a movie about vampires and werewolves is just a movie about vampires and werewolves.

Now I have heard these movies contain a lot of sexual innuendo and metaphor. But vampires and werewolves just taps into every teenage girl's sexual fantasies- necrophilia and bestiality.

[sudopod]

24. I lol'd.

[JVS]

30. I didn't realize teenage girls were so into that stuff. Freaky!

[paulsby]

92. there are no werewolves in the movie or book

there are WOLVES, but not werewolves. some members of the indian tribe turn into WOLVES, but they are not werewolves. there is no full moon aspect, and nothing resembles the classic werewolf.

fwiw, some indian tribes do have similar legends, and they had never heard of werewolves.

i've read several reviews that refer to werewolves, which makes me question whether they even saw the movie

[UndertheOcean]

8. "In fact, just moments after Edward leaves her, Bella stumbles in the woods and refuses to get up...

I guess the writer of this ridiculous article knows nothing about teenage romantic love , an ailment that affects both genders .

A friends 14 year old son refused to get out of bed for a frickin 3 months after his girlfriend left him ... he got over it .


I am not defending the Twilight movies , they are still stupid , but this article is way too hysterical.

[Morning Dew]

9. spoiler alert

It's just part two of four - Bella grows a pair by the end.

Poorly written teen crap.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

67. The vampire genre is very popular nowadays nt

[Oregone]

10. AH, Its probably just a disgustingly shitty movie like the first one, and you're confused

People are searching for the source of discomfort in their stomach and cannot face that they just wasted 2 hours of their life.

I wont waste my time on this one. The first was unbearably bad if you aren't a tween-age girl

[Fleshdancer]

12. people over analyze this series to death sometimes

Breaking news: It hurts when your heart breaks. Rejection is painful. Losing someone you love is depressing.

Freaking hell. We're talking about a fictional teenage girl in love with a vampire. It's ALL ridiculous. Is it sexist to say that it was the "passive" female who saved the male vampire at the end? The same male vampire who was going to kill himself instead of moping around in his bedroom for a few months the way she did?

Arg. I have no idea why I'm even defending this work of fiction. I guess this annoys me as much as the church getting all pissy about Harry Potter.

[uppityperson]

14. having the older stalker leave the teen is a good thing, imo. I agree that

the whole kit and kaboodle is very sexist. The part where they say "isn't every woman's wish to stay 17 forever" got a hysterical laugh from this middle aged woman.

The part I don't like is the promotion of "love" being phermonally driven, "love at first sight" crap. At least in this part of the series you get to see a relationship developing rather than being thrust together because of scent.

I also get creeped out by the 100 yr old stalker. That ain't love kids and it just ain't something to aspire for.

[dustbunnie]

Heathcliff and Catherine were in a pretty sick place too.

And was there ever more pining to be found than between the pages of the Age of Innocence?

Yes, the author is making too much of it. Kids become besotted and then sick and morose when they break up. THAT'S normal. Then they grow up.

It's a series about vampires and the mortals who love them. I mean, what do people expect? I was forced to watch it with a crew of twihards. The shirtless highlight was okay and the rest was doze-worthy.

[nemo137]

15. There's been a bit making the rounds in SF-fandom

Going though a list of 15 signs you might be in an abusive relationship, and showing how Twilight/New Moon gets all of them.

[Odin2005]

16. The whole series is misogynistic crap.

[BolivarianHero]

19. Of course it is...

It reflects the brainwashed understanding that Mormon women have of their "place" in society.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

68. How about 90 lb., 14 yr old models that vomit to stay at 80 lbs

and wear skimpy things that leave nothing to the imagination?

That's all in style because the male-dominated fashion world makes it be in style.

I think there's far more misogyny in that.

[get the red out]

99. Exactly

And we have seen what kind of "good" that particular fucked up branch of religion is doing for our society, suppressing people's rights with every dime they can muster.

It makes me sick to muse on how many women's lives have been totally WASTED because of being born into religions like this, and now it gets transported to millions of young girls in this country with the media pushing it. Much slicker than the young idiot boys in ties that come to your door.

Just something else for women to have to battle. Along with the misogynist apologists among democrats that always pop up and troll like crazy in threads like this one.

[kaylynwright]

17. Interesting

I actually did a speech about this for class last week. The focus was more on why the relationship between Edward and Bella was abusive and romanticized. I've read the series. It's by no means great, but it's entertaining enough. I am somewhat disturbed with how obsessed people have become with it, to the point where they really think that is the sort of relationship dynamic they want. Yes, I would agree with you that people tend to over analyze this series, but I also think this over analyzing results from observations of people who are completely enthralled with this series. Bella is an pretty pathetic character though. I don't think she is in any way a role model.

[Codeine]

20. I've written better prose than "Twilight" on toilet paper after a curry.

It's the first thing I've ever read that makes Anne Rice look positively literary in comparison. Next to that shit Dan Brown is Dosto-fucking-evsky.

[iris27]

41. +10000

n/t

[Lorien]

42. Lol! Painfully true! nt

[juno jones]

46. You got me.

:thumbsup:

[Lisa0825]

43. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

Yeah, I know several grown women who get completely giddy when they talk about the series. That kind of behavior makes me want to hurl! LOL

[mitchum]

21. Well, of course; it's a vampire movie

[girl gone mad]

22. I'm pretty sure the movies are just an excuse for women to ogle half naked young men.

A couple of my gay friends went to the movie on opening night and reported back to me that the female audience literally gasped when the male lead took off his shirt.

It's masturbation material for teenage girls and their sexually frustrated moms.

[Lerkfish]

25. so was "devil wears prada", ironically since people felt otherwise.

IMHO
for these reasons:

1. she was punished for having a demanding but successful career by her chef boyfriend, even though she'd been completely supportive of his. When she quit said career her boyfriend took her back and she was thrilled for some reason, even though he'd been a jerk previously.
2. success in her career was based on being supremely subservient. Even though Meryl Streep was the one subjugating her.
3. success is measured by how much her superficial looks improve by dress and hairstyle
4. The only completely rounded character is a man, albeit a gay man, but a man nonetheless.
5. She gets a job in the end, NOT due to her own abilities or resume, but because someone powerful interevened on her behalf.

[dustbunnie]

28. You make some fair points...

But I disagree on these:

1) Her boyfriend wasn't upset so much by her demanding career, but because she was a sell-out and spending overtime with assholes. When your beloved suddenly becomes involved in something you can't in good conscience support, people tend to drift apart. I saw them as starting out as idealistic democrats, then she goes to work for the evil Repubs.

4) In New York City, and many other places I imagine, the best way to get a job is through connections or nepotism. I'd say half the jobs out there get filled through word of mouth. Half the people are incompetent, especially the higher up the corp ladder you go, but that's the way it is. Nothing anti-feminist about the practice...works for both genders.

[LostInAnomie]

27. The whole series is nothing but a masturbatory fantasy for teenage girls...

... and frustrated older women. If that's what they are looking to purchase so they can rub one out later it's hard to call it anti-feminist. Fantasy is just that, fantasy. As long as it is freely chosen by the woman it isn't anti-feminist.

[JanMichael]

29. It is. That whole series is some sick shit, but I am sure that

there will be a hundred DU'ers that whine about teens and entertainment.

[artfan]

31. my oldest sons both read twilight

when it first came out they both liked it but as the oldest says 'as the series went on the quality degraded' they complain...

-too many characters are dumb
-the females are too weak to be interesting
-the characters did not evolve
-it is painfully obvious the author has never has a real relationship
-characters do not mature as individuals
-by the fourth book words become nothing more than drivel that pass through your brain and you find yourself asking why did I spent my allowance on this crap

They are 15 and 17 and felt the series had a lot of promise that was wasted the older one thinks it is because the author has no clue about young people and how they conduct relationships the younger feels she sold out to make a buck and chose to 'pander to stupid 12 year old girls' rather then write a thoughtful engaging conclusion. He also feels the books become more rushed as the series goes on which he also attributes to a desire to make money.

I have not read the books but love hearing what boys think of them.

[southernyankeebelle]

32. Well am an old lady of 62 and love vampire movies. I haven't seen

these 2 movies yet. But they take allot of liberties with vampires going out during the day. I love the blood and gore kind of movies. My favorite channel is Sci Fi channel. I love the make believe stuff. I don't like the movies like Friday the 13th or Saw those kind of movies can happen in real life.

[Withywindle]

33. Have you seen "True Blood" or read the books it's based on?

You would probably like that. It's like Twilight for grownups and smart people. Including the sexual fantasy aspects: I think True Blood is actually sexy, unlike Twilight. :scared:

[iris27]

44. I can't speak to the TV series, but the Sookie books are racist as fuck.

Quick example: At one of the first murders, the town cops show up, and they are a short, thin, white guy named Kevin, and a black woman named "Kenya" who is "built to weather hurricanes". Harris makes a point of how "funny" they look together -- "When the town police chief had partnered Kenya and Kevin, he'd been indulging his sense of humor, the town figured". Tall heavy-set black woman happens to work with a short, thin white man....yes, I see, that's super hilarious!

Then, Kenya's inner monologue, when Sookie starts reading the people around her, read in part "...she felt sorry for anyone who ended up with flies crawling on her face. Kenya was thinking she was sorry she'd eaten that extra doughnut that morning at the Nut Hut because it might come back up and that would shame her as a black woman police officer."

Stuff like this was peppered throughout the narrative and I couldn't focus on the story because I was too busy rolling my eyes at the lazy, bigoted characterizations.

[Withywindle]

50. I haven't read the books, honestly.

Just as a fairly casual watcher of the show it does seem to be at least somewhat better on that front. I know there's a major black character who winds up dead in the books but not on the show (yet) (don't wanna be spoilery here) and another major character who's white in the books is black on the show.

[iris27]

53. I thought the show might be better, just haven't had a chance to snag the first season DVDs

yet. Glad to hear your opinion is along the lines of what I was hoping for the transition to TV. Since most of the overtly annoying stuff in the books is author commentary and not so much dialogue or plot, it would be easy enough to ignore for the show.

[Withywindle]

55. You can rent it on Netflix or something.

I'd be really curious to know what you think. I think it's the kind of show that definitely does have some problematic aspects sometimes, but is also intelligent and compelling enough to be worth debating about.

I like the fact that things you think at first are morally clear often turn out not to be, and all the major characters have flaws that get them into trouble but they also get to be heroic often enough to balance out, and you usually eventually get far more than one side of a story.


edit: I'm also completely fascinated by the possibilities of a show about Southern culture that has modern people with modern sensibilities, and yet also has immortal beings who were old enough to have been Confederate soldiers, slaves, slave owners, etcetera. Like the scene where Sookie's grandmother gets Sookie's new boyfriend Bill to speak to her Civil War historical society meeting....because he was there.

[Iggo]

81. Twilight is completely sexy....to 14 yr olds.

Let 'em have it.

[Withywindle]

94. Yeah, I'm definitely not the target audience.

I'm not the target audience for the Harry Potter books either, but I LOVED those. I'm definitely too old for Twilight but not for HP (at 40). Funny how that works. :D

[Sarah Ibarruri]

69. This is more of a Catherine-Heathcliff kind of vampire movie

I wouldn't expect a Bela Lugosi. Besides, the Heathcliff in this movie is quite good looking. Don't expect to be scared much LOL! It's about teen hormones.

[CRF450]

95. If you like blood and gore, you'll like Ninja Assasine!

Saw that one the other day, pretty cool flick!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

34. It's a lot less anti-feminist than the promotion of nudity in women

Like porn, like women's fashion that shows everything (women are half-naked while men are fully dressed), like every magazine, movie, almost everything, really.

[nemo137]

36. Not less, but different, I'd argue.

The sexual universe of Twilight is goddamn retrograde and creepy, and the 4th book in the series is basically the pro-choice version of Atlas Shrugged. It's about creating a world where men are men, and women are objects powerlessly in their sway, with no real existence outside of the men in their lives.

It's more dangerous, maybe, than a half-naked Vanity Fair cover.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

37. It's the same exactly (no difference) story as all the Disney princesses....

The same idea as men idealizing a model who is 14, anorexic and bordering on death from bulimia, simply because they like the emaciated, flat-boy-body type of look.

The same as the fashion we women have offered to us by the male-dominated fashion industry, which involves us having to tape our boobs, get implants, show 99% of our boobs, get implants on our behind, show 90% of our behind, and meantime, hand on the arm of a man who is wearing a suit and is covered from neck to foot. It's like the man is with a half-nude slave.

I see no difference. And I'm not being difficult. I swear to you on anything that I see zero difference between the two. HONEST.

[nemo137]

48. I believe you, but I'd still argue that the Twilight books are worse.

Than the Disney Princesses, at least. I'm still looking for my all-time "favorite" review of Twilight, here is the one I mentioned earlier about Twilight's abusive relationships, and a rather more in-depth at the Twilight series. It's insidious.

On edit: Actually, let me make a 180 from my last sentence. What shocks me is how blatant the Twilight books and movies are with that message. The things you talked about - expectations about bodies and clothes - are just there, constantly in the sort of cultural aether. The Twilight creepiness, on the other hand, is being knowingly and explicitly aimed at young girls as a model for relationships, and is being celebrated. It's that laser-like focus I find scary.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

52. Not at all. The princesses teach the exact same idea, and yet...

we all give little girls all kinds of princess paraphernalia and encourage them to behave like princesses (helpless, like a mannequin, behaving as if their life without a man is not a life at all). The vampire books are the next step, an older version of the princesses, just a bit nastier that's all.

[nemo137]

54. Sorry, I edited while you were posting because something hit me.

Although, I'm still going to argue that the difference between Twilight and Princesses is kind, not degree.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

59. I went back and re-read your edited post. I don't think we disagree on a lot

I think perhaps you might be put off by the vampire-blood-death thingie. There is a female vampire that murders quite nicely in one of the books, or all of them. I haven't read them all. However, the subject matter is, yes, scary because it involves killing people, sucking their blood, torturing.

It is off-putting to think of a girl infatuated with a vampire who is there, just ready to suck her blood till she has none left. However, the idea of vampires is that they will suck anyone's blood, not just some girl's.

Also, I'd like to interject that it isn't just this girl in the Twilight books that is a victim (she has accidents, she has to be rescued, etc.) Women have always been taught to be victims. In the past, they were supposed to act helpless. Nowadays, they're supposed to be anorexic. It's always something really f****d up to make men happy or attracted to them.



:crazy:

[nemo137]

62. No, I don't think we disagree on much.

I think the main thing is, as a guy, I'm not being inundated with the learned-helplessness bit, so when it's as blatant and central to the story as it is in Twilight, that squicks me out. I also think I'm attributing active malice, in a way, to Stephanie Meyer in a way that might not be completely fair, but there you have it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

66. It's awesome that you notice these things tho.

You're probably a great dad.

[nemo137]

97. It's nice of you to say so.

I'm currently freaked-out enough by the state of the planet to want to put a vasectomy on my Christmas list, but I'm slowly getting more optimistic.

It's been a good conversation, and you've given me a bunch to think about. Thank you.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

98. :-) Thanks! Same with you. nt

[XemaSab]

85. I will respectfully submit

that the difference between princess movies and Twilight is that in the princess movies the heroine is rendered helpless by outside forces and is then rescued by the prince; in Twilight the heroine is rendered helpless by the prince and then rescued by the same person who got her into a bad situation in the first place.

[Lorien]

45. Porn isn't marketed to pre-teen girls. nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

47. No, you're right, but the fashion being marketed to girls today is porn

and what they're encouraged to do (displays of nudity and sex while boys or men who are nothing to them, tape them) is porn.

So really, I see nothing wrong in the vampire books that isn't wrong in the rest of our society.

[ismnotwasm]

35. The whole premise of Twilight is weird

Creepy bloodsucking vampire stalker boyfriend, with a creepy bloodsucking vampire stalker family.

I don't understand how it gets a special "anti-feminist" rap though. More like a pro-stalker movie, with 15 year olds girls in mind. Although I've met 40 year old fans.

Show me a single major release that is pro-feminist. There aren't any. Twilight--whatever version-- is a stupid bodice ripper in a long line of stupid bodice rippers.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

70. Nothing is pro-feminist.

The other day I was switching stations and came across one of those commercial thingies for Girls Gone Wild. I nearly :puke:
Twilight is a feminist manifesto compared with that Girls Gone Wild shit.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

73. You just discovered that exists?

They also have "Guys Gone Wild" too, although it doesn't get as much advertisement. I've seen those ads a few times, when passing by the Logo Network usually.

I don't get it, I mean if you wanna watch a porn, watch real porn.....who gets their jollies off that?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

77. Modeling all consists of women showing their tits and behind

While men dress in suits (covered from neck to foot). Last time I was at a club I looked around and was nauseated. If you really look, it does make you sick. Women are always dressing like naked clowns.

[iris27]

39. And the sky is blue.

Seriously, anyone who thinks the Twilight series ISN'T as sexist as fuck needs their head examined. I certainly haven't read anything else where a girl is kissed against her will by a boy, punches him for violating her consent, breaks her hand on his jaw...and when she tells her father how she got hurt, the father fucking LAUGHS AND TAKES THE DUDE'S SIDE.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

75. Seriously, I wouldn't know

It sounds like it sucks and I wouldn't watch the movies or read books. Stephen King said she doesn't even know how to write.

[uppityperson]

78. AND that is not the creepy 90 yr old stalker, but the more "normal" hormal teen-male

Not the dad, but the guy. Anyone who romanticizes lust for love and stalking/controlling for a good basis for a partnership has some serious issues.

[Lorien]

40. Ever seen a Michael Moore film?

they tend to be entertaining political commentary with a bit of preaching tossed in for good measure.

[rucky]

49. 80% of the audience is women.

The other 20 were dragged to the theater.

[benEzra]

72. As a guy, I'm going to differ with that.

A large percentage of guys do not, in fact, fit the emotionally-stunted-jock-that-hates-love-stories stereotype. Call me an "emo" if you want, but I happen to like love stories, and don't try to analyze every detail of them to see if every character is idealogically pure enough for my unsullied eyes. A lot of my male coworkers like the Twilight series, and so do I.

My wife and I went to see New Moon because we BOTH wanted to see it, and I dare say most of the men who went were probably in that category. I'll be getting the DVD when it comes out because I enjoyed it.

Sorry, rant off. It just bugs the hell out of me how society tries to stereotype guys with feelings as "emos", and "real men only like action movies."

[Codeine]

76. You're not emo,

you just have really atrocious taste in film. ;)

[benEzra]

86. LOL!

That's OK, I liked Zombieland too... :rofl:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

79. I admit to watching rom-coms.....by myself

I will watch any shitty Sandra Bullock/Reese Witherspoon/Cameron Diaz flick where she gets dumped/dumps someone/meets someone else/goes back to old guy/gets married while drunk/thinks one guy is someone else/leaves at the alter/left at the alter crapfest you want to toss at me. Just last night I watched Uma Thurman in "The Accidental Husband". Awful. Sucked ass. But Uma looked great!

But Twilight? I'll pass. Everyone looks miserable and not very attractive to me anyhow.

[Selatius]

100. Last of the Mohicans is one of my favorite flicks of all time, and it's basically a love story, too.

I mean, I wish there were more movies like that. New Moon and Twilight were also positives in my book, and I saw them both.

[rucky]

105. Man, you're not getting a break, are you?

The OP suggests you like a film that's misogynistic, and now this. Well, at least you'll get an apology from my end - I guess my joke successfully detracted from the central point I was making.

[anonymous171]

51. Apparently, showing women in states of emotional distress is anti-feminist

I usually enjoy feminist stuff but this is too much.

[Honeycombe8]

56. This is a recurring theme in Hollywood. "Fatal Attraction" "Basic Instinct"

"The Women" "Baby Boom" "The Crush"

The message: Beware the single woman! A woman without a man is likely to kill someone, or stalk the man she's obsessed with. The good woman in the movie? Why, it's the one WITH the man, of course! All good women have men!

Oh, and, the rule is that the men in the movies get older and older. But the age of the heroines stays about the same. Note: Sally Field and Tom Hanks play a married couple in "Punchline." A few years later, she plays his mother in "Forest Gump."

Eh. I just recognize them for what they are. But I still enjoy the movies. It's a recurring theme throughout literature and especially the movies, which are almost totally produced, written, and directed by men.

There is a bright ray of hope, though. As more and more women have gotten involved, there have been more movies that are more realistic. Goldie Hawn, Nora whatshername, Barbra Streisand, and others.

Curiously, I read an article once that pointed to the fact that women enjoyed a more equal and less discriminatory place in movies in the 1940's era, with Bette Davis and such. Because of the war, I guess. Then things reverted back to the way they were, pre-war...after the war.

[dustbunnie]

64. Not sure what you have against Baby Boom. It was a cute movie about a woman

who goes it on her own with a baby. What's so awful about that? There are also tons of movies about stalker psycho men. Eric Roberts stars in 90% of them, but so does Ray Liotta and a host of others.

Nora Ephron is hit and miss, and a lot of the humor in her last couple of flicks was kind of kitchy and stereo-typical where women are concerned. You've Got Mail was an anti-feminist nightmare.

[Honeycombe8]

71. Baby Boom is one of my favorite movies. You missed the line in my post

where I said I enjoy those movies. I didn't say they were awful.

Baby Boom - she does not, and cannot, be a truly good and happy person until...until what? Why, until she finds a permanent man! But you're right...this movie probably wasn't a good example. She doesn't stalk or kill anyone. It's just that it is a movie about what a meaningless life she is leading because she doesn't have a family.

There's nothing wrong with having a family. But you'd be hard pressed to find a movie about a happy, fulfilled career woman who doesn't have a permanent man. Plenty of movies about fulfilled career men who don't have permanent women (Bond....James Bond).

Yeah...lots of bad guy movies where they stalk women. Well, not lots. A few. But since most movies are about men, they represent a small percentage. There are far more movies about happy, single men than about unhappy, single men who find true love and then become fulfilled. Because, in movie land, men don't get fulfilled from love. They get their identity and happiness from their careers. There may be truth to that in real life. But that doesn't mean single women have to kill, until they find true love.

I don't see the problem with You've Got Mail. She was a business owner, whose equal concern was her business, in addn to her live-in boyfriend. That's pretty feminist. HE wasn't her primary concern. They split. She didn't stalk him or kill him or obsess over that. She DOES get seriously depressed over her business failing. Pretty feminist, I think. What's the problem with that movie?

I love almost all movies, so don't get me wrong. I think for myself, so I'm not overly influenced. I just recognized this pattern some years ago. I recognize it, but still like the movie.

One thing I am starting to revolt against, though, is the older man-younger woman pairing in movies. I'm soooo tired of that, that I'm starting not to go to movies where that's the situation. I almost didn't see "An Education" recently for that reason, but my friends talked me into it. I said it's so cliche'...the older man seduces young ingenue scenario. Oh, no...they said...this movie is supposed to be different! It wasn't. Same ol' same ol'. Older guy seduces young ingenue...she learns her lesson...blah blah blah.

[dustbunnie]

83. What I thought was god-awful about You've Got Mail was --

that in the end she falls for the guy who puts her out of business. We're asked to laugh at her first boyfriend because he's this intellectual leftist boob, but Tom Hanks, the cut-throat business owner is supposed to send tinglies down our spines. Because we all secretly want the go-get-em successful business shark, not the buffoon leftist journalist. At some point he knows her identity and sets out to "seduce" her, after he's bankrupted her mother's store and legacy. (What woman could resist a guy like that? Ruins and stalks her all in the same breath! She sure does!)

She's just this passive creature who's kind of goofy and naive (in the inimitable Meg Ryan way) and needs to be saved... like the grocery store scene at Thanksgiving when he offers her money (did you notice he's always paying for stuff in this movie? Weird.) and smoothes things over with the angry cashier/shoppers. And the cliched role of Tom Hanks' evil stepmother who tries to bed him, then runs off with the nanny tops things off. Tom Hanks' dad can't even remember the name of the woman who replaced his kid's mom. It was totally unbelievable to me.

I guess I didn't get the same vibe from Baby Boom as you did. :) Seems to me it was more a flick about a woman finding herself and her values -- home, fulfilling work -- first, and THEN discovering love in the process.

I'd argue that there are certainly lots of films that fit outside the norm you're talking about, but these are often Indy or foreign flicks. But the reason movies reflect what you're proposing is because women LOVE to watch movies about love. They're called chick flicks for a reason. Even Nora Ephron goes into this phenomenon in Sleepless. Men don't really get off on those movies the way women do, which is why they get James Bond and car chases. When women stop flocking to see romantic schlock, they'll make other movies for us.

[niyad]

57. the enculturation that females get is often very subtle--including things like this awful

"twilight" hysteria. nothing wrong with pointing this sort of thing out.

honestly, though, if people want good vampire lit--they should try christine feehan's carpathian series (warning: NOT for the sexually repressed!!)

[anigbrowl]

58. Yawn...this professor is just surfing on the film's popularity

Ball State University, in Indiana...not exactly the center of the academic universe, but challenging something that's almost universally popular is a good way to rack up some media mentions. Who knows, maybe she can parlay it into a consultancy gig on the next sequel.

Besides, it's teen angst. It's supposed to be overwrought and immature...it appeals to teens because they can see their own immature emotional crises reflected there. Teens were not packing into the theaters to watch Away we go (a whimsical dramedy about pregnancy and life choices) because they are not particularly interested in such complex subject matter yet.

[liberal_at_heart]

60. This is just as silly as all the Christians out there protesting all these unholy books and movies

Evangelical Christians tried to get people not to read Harry Potter. Some don't like how romanticised vampires have become to our young people either. When I brought home the dvd of Twilight we all sat down and watched it. When it was over my evangelical Christian dad told my daughter "you know there is no such thing as a 'good' vampire right?". I told him it is just fantasy and no worse than Harry Potter. I think just as the evangelical Christians have taken their criticisms too far I think the feminists have taken this too far. Yes, it is true that a girl chasing after a boy who keeps trying to push her away is I admit anti-feminist. Edward is the tortured soul. Bella just wants to love him and Edward just keeps pushing her away. I'll admit it is a bunch of crap as far as real life. In real life I probably would tell Bella to run as far away from Edward as she can. But sometimes a girl just wants to fantasize. That is why so many moms including myself out there love the Twilight story. I gave up chasing men that pushed me away a long time ago. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy this story.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

65. and I had a professor who said the purpose of Halloween was...

was through trick-o-treating to introduce young girls to the sexual economy of prostitution, it was a 45 minute lecture.

[boppers]

87. Trick or Treating == prostitution?

Sounds like a "fun" professor... any other great hits from them?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

93. oh yeah, she was a riot

Her thoughts on sex and reproduction were especially interesting. Who knew that the patriarchy had the power to subvert mother nature?

Her basic attitude on most issues was the same as the religious right - but instead of sex being sinful it was about subservience to the patriarchy!

Although the best thing about her was she would give bonus marks to any male student who would attend her gender and sexuality symposium. That is where she delivered her lecture on the undeniable link between Halloween and prostitution. There were chicks there with lime green buzz cuts looking at her like she was insane.

[boppers]

96. When you've lost the lime green buzz cuts...

You know you've gone over the edge.

:rofl:

[benEzra]

74. For anyone who thinks that religious fundies are the only ones

who require every character in every story to meet an idealogical purity test lest it violate the sanctity of our unsullied eyes, I submit this thread.

It's a love story. People like love stories because we're human, not because we want to "prop up the patriarchy." And FWIW, Bella finds her strength and kicks ass in Breaking Dawn, but I wouldn't expect the fundies from either end of the spectrum to have actually read that far...

[liberal_at_heart]

82. One of the things that captured me about this story

is the way Bella and Edward's love consumes them. It reminded me of when my husband and I first fell in love. That chemical high when you first fall in love is intoxicating. Fortunately I've been blessed to have been married to my husband for 15 yrs and our love is much deeper now than when we first fell in love. We've been there for each other through illnesses and arguments and we've been there to share all the good times like when our babies were born, birthdays, anniversaries, and just everyday ordinary life. But there is nothing like that first chemical high you get when first fall in love. I look back with fondness at that time in our courtship.

[oregonjen]

84. Could it be that men feel threatened by this whole series?

Sure the writing isn't stellar. I've read the series and seen the movies. They are brain candy and I loved them. The main character is a young woman who grows up in these books teenage angst and all.
For all the testosterone blood and gore filled movies that Hollywood spits out, why is it bad that these movies, aimed at teens and women, are so popular? Women are voting with their pocketbooks and sending a message to Hollywood that we want more love stories, which is why New Moon is a huge financial success. Are men that threatened to see women enjoying bare-chested "wolf" men and a sexy vampire and rooting for the main character, a female no less? It's a fantasy. Pure fun and we want more of that.

May I suggest this article that was on Huffington Post?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/melissa-silverstein/new-moon-brings-a-new-daw_b_367509.html

[benEzra]

101. The emotionally stunted jocks probably are.

It's easier to make fun of men who aren't ashamed to express feelings or be deeply in love than it is to emulate them.

I'm a 39-year-old guy, though, and I enjoyed all four books and both movies so far.

[Codeine]

110. I just hate bad writing.

Considering the amount of well-written fiction on our library and bookstore shelves there is simply no excuse for people to embrace garbage like that. It's the equivalent of going into a good restaurant and ordering a plate of cat shit.

[paulsby]

88. analysis is flawed and cherry picks

bella also: rides motorcycles, jumps off a cliff that admittedly (according to a male character that says he would be scared to do it) is dangerous, and flies to italy, in order to risk her life to save her beau.

in other words, the analysis cherry picks to reach the (biased) conclusion it desires.

it's also a friggin' love story. how many love stories have seen male characters go totally psycho-solitary and moping after being dumped? i can think of many.

it's also problematic to say that anything the lead female character does has to be representative of a stance on women's issues. bella isn't "the everywoman". she's a character. in a movie (not a FILM, a MOVIE). it's a vampire, wolf movie. it's fun.

[Ghost of Tom Joad]

102. does anyone else beside me find it odd

that Edward is basically a pedophile? After all he is something like 75 years old and hanging around high schoolers?

[Fleshdancer]

103. lol, Edward is not a pedophile

Bella isn't prepubescent and she is of age and married to him when they have sex. I guess this makes Edward more like a monogomous Hugh Hefner...but with less wrinkles and more sparkle. Weird? Of course. Pedophile? Nah.

[Ghost of Tom Joad]

104. she was 17 when he first encountered her, yes?

I just find it creepy that some overlook that fact that he is quite old. Other vampire sagas deal with the question of actual age vs the age they look. Interview with the Vampire and Near Dark are two examples of youngsters being turned at a young age and never looking older. Edward is in my opinion a creepy pedolphile. If not, quit hanging around high school.

[rucky]

106. I guess all those women who follow the series just don't know what's good for them.

:eyes:

[jakefrep]

107. Apparently it's not enough to just say that it's a shitty movie.

nt

[Rebubula]

109. THIS JUST IN!

Many people do not read deeply into the lives of the author of a book and just enjoy the escapist fantasy that it provides due to the fact that the world is a violent and dangerous place and we all die in the end.

More at 11.....

[PVnRT]

111. Times like this, I wish Hunter Thompson were still alive

It would be interesting to hear him lay into it, provided he didn't just dismiss it as garbage out of hand.