How much faith do you have in capitalism and the banking system?

[kentuck]

Is it the best economic system ever devised and we had no choice but to save it last year when it was collapsing and dying? If we had let it run its course, everything would have been much worse today? We had to save the big banks? There was no other choice?

As Democrats, some pretend to be anti-capitalism but we worship the almighty dollar just as religiously as do conservatives. In the end, we will always save the big banks over the people, under the pretense that it is best for the people if we save the banks. Under the surface, isn't this the cause of the present dissatisfaction with the Democratic Party? They chose "them" over "us"? Was there really ever any doubt?

We can rationalize and make excuses about the unemployment problem, the loss of jobs overseas, the bankruptcies, the credit card fiascos, and all the attacks upon the average American, but in the end, there is really no one fighting for you? Do you believe that? Or do you believe that the Democratic Party is on your side?

[Cerridwen]

1. Ah, hell, kentuck. Just see my sig line. *sigh* n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Well if this was a capitalist system

we would not have monopolies and banks would be regulated.

I highly recommend people read the Wealth of Nations... truly do.

[Sinti]

24. LOL - good luck with that n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. What calling this what it is?

A corporatist consumer system? Not capitalism?

Or people readying? If the latter, fully agree.

[Sinti]

31. Trying to get people to actually read "Wealth of Nations"

and understand that this is NOT capitalism - unless it's some scary, mutant, nightmare in which the word capitalism often appears :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Yeah I know

:-)

[Sinti]

32. oops - double post n/t

[mike_c]

3. I'd like the opportunity to dance on captalism's grave...

...in my lifetime. To turn a phrase, I don't want to see it killed, I'd just like to see it regulated to the point where we could drown it in a bathtub....

[inna]

21. +1

[Laura902]

4. Hoping

I think the average dem cares more about people in general than business but politicians are another sort of human entirely.

[Grey]

5. I have as much "faith" in them as

I have in the Catholic Church bringing some priests to justice.

[Swamp Rat]

6. None, zero, zilch, nada, and I look forward to the death of capitalism.

[Fire1]

8. I agree except I won't live long enough to see it destroyed,

so I'll just go elsewhere.

[StarfarerBill]

9. What you said.

Until some form of socialism, even market socialism, is instituted in this country by its working class, the best we can hope for is a continued downward spiral with almost-continuous wars and occasional corporate bailouts.

[anonymous171]

7. I have no faith in banks. Bankers are slime and should be treated as such,

Capitalism is just as stupid as communism, and as false. Neither can exist. Socialism (real worker oriented socialism, not just welfare statism) is good though.

[kentuck]

14. Which begs an interesting question?

Could communism in the Soviet Union have been saved if they had spent the same amount of money to save it as capitalism and does that prove that capitalism is the better system?

[Odin2005]

44. Co-ops!

:)

[valerief]

10. Pawn power. That's all I have.

Unfortunately, most of the other pawns are watching Fox News and believing it. How do you fight the lies of the magic machine?

[Oregone]

11. Capitalism is a scourge to humanity

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

12. Ask me after we start regulating it properly again. n/t

[laughingliberal]

13. The only faith I have in Capitalism is faith it will continue to transfer all wealth upwards

until the working and middle classes are utterly destroyed. After all, that's its purpose.

[Fumesucker]

15. If I "worshipped the almighty dollar" I'd definitely have more of them..

:rofl:

[C_Lawyer09]

16. Naivete is the basis of capitalism hatred

It is not capitalism that needs to be regulated, it is anti-trust laws that need to be modernized, a Federal Reserve that should be audited, and failing business that should be allowed to fail without subsidy or selling out to the government. I don't understand the blind faith toward omnibus legislation. A 1990 page bill, seriously... Now let's talk about the closed circuit tv that causes politicians to eschew the house or senate floor, which limits debate. Government as a whole is for the preservation and growth of government. Simplify the tax code, stop govt. subsidies of business, and create an environment wherein the American small businessman has an opportunity to put out a shingle without going under. The biggest hindrance currently is municipal governments giving away land and huge tax breaks to conglomerates. Most conglomerates sell Chinese crap. Small business doesn't get a break at most municipal, state, or federal levels. What makes successful capitalism is competition and a free market. Entities such as Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac,are examples of huge waste. Unless there is a domestic business/manufacturing base only the MIC's and MIC will be the only game in town. If MIC is the only game in town, count on endless wars.

[kentuck]

20. Most of the needs that you mention only validate the success of capitalism

Capitalism does not want to be regulated. They do not want anti-trust laws. They do not want efficient government. They do not want open debate. They have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. It is not the failure of politicians so much as it is the success of the capitalists.

[C_Lawyer09]

30. I disagree

Of course there are many types of regulation. I guarantee you there are many health insurance companies that would like to compete in Alabama for business. If a fair playing field gets tampered with there is no free market. It is century old anti-trust laws that need to be relegislated. Also, much of big business is able to get away with not paying their taxes. most small and mid-level business can't say the same. Plenty of regulation was on the books to keep mortgage backed securities from getting an A+ investment rating. The watchdogs were incompetent. By the way, just who do you think enables Multi-National Corporations these loopholes that only apply to those whom can afford to line political pockets. GATT CAFTA NAFTA WTO and IMF are political failures. If you can seperate politics from big business maybe some headway will be made. Fifty percent of former Congressmen are going to work on K street. So, I guess my short answer is, if you think business is evil, our economy won't recover. Who legislates no bid contracts? Is that free market capitalism? I think not.

[kentuck]

33. I think there is a natural inclination for capitalism to bribe or fix the system..

That is not the unnatural state - that is the natural state, in my opinion. They wish to bribe every politician they can. Capitalism does not operate out of compassion, but out of greed.

[C_Lawyer09]

38. I don't altogether disagree, and I get what you are saying

But the same axiom could be applied to our current two party system. Sometimes it becomes a question of philosophy. Do we surrender to privatization the task of providing cost effective sundries? Government was just purchasing 200 dollar toilet seats. Or are we capable of enabling a govt. that is capable of executing basic tasks? I don't have the answer. Which philosophy is easier to swallow? KBR was charging the military twice what it should have for fuel. The DOD budget is 25% black and slated to increase by twenty five percent a year if you add the supplementals. The CIA budget is 100% black. I do understand your sentiment. This is reminiscent of a conversation me and my dad recently had.

[kentuck]

39. This is the natural state of capitalism..

Regulations and anti-trust laws are simply obstacles for the capitalists to defeat. How many regulations have been passed since the meltdown a year ago? It is natural for them to buy politicians. It is naive to imagine otherwise. Capitalism has been a smashing success. It has worked just the way it is supposed to work.

[C_Lawyer09]

42. You're painting with an extremely broad brush

Reiterating, I understand the point you are making, but the counterpoint would be functional government that is not beholden to special interests and is effective. I don't see capitalism as an evil, though there are many businesses which are unethical. There are just as many that are ethical and which are the engine of our economy. Moreover, medium industry is what has pulled several previous third world nations into the second or first world. I don't villianize business, both govt. and business should be held accountable.

[kentuck]

48. Obviously, we disagree.

Capitalism evolves. Not to the ethical but the unethical. Not to the good but to the evil. Look around. Who is holding who accountable?

[robdogbucky]

17. Personally, I think Louis Kelso was on to something...

And he wasn't a socialist, a Communist, or any other disparaging label usually applied to discredit any ideas that challenge the "capitalist," status quo:


"...Kelso long believed that he had not originated a new economic theory but only discovered a vital fact that the classical economists had somehow overlooked. This fact was the key to understanding why the private property, free market economy was notoriously unstable, pursuing a roller coaster course of exhilarating highs and terrifying descents into economic and financial collapse.
This missing fact, which Kelso had uncovered over years of intensive reading, research and thought, drastically modifies the classical paradigm which has dominated formal economics since Adam Smith. It concerns the effect of technological change on the distributive dynamics of a private property, free market economy. Technological change, Kelso concluded, makes tools, machines, structures and processes ever more productive while leaving human productiveness largely unchanged. The result is that primary distribution through the free market economy, whose distributive principle is “to each according to his production,” delivers progressively more market-sourced income to capital owners and progressively less to workers who make their contributions through labor.

Differential productiveness over time concentrates market-sourced income in the hands of those who will not recycle it back through the market as payment for consumer goods and services. They already have most of what they want and need so they invest their excess in new productive power. This is the source of the distributional bottleneck which makes the private property, free market economy ever more dysfunctional. The symptoms of dysfunction are capital concentration and inadequate consumer demand, the effects of which translate into poverty and economic insecurity for the majority of people who depend entirely on wage income and cannot survive more than a week or two without a paycheck. And since, as Adam Smith laid down, economic demand begins with the consumer and consumer purchasing power, the production side of the economy is under-nourished and hobbled..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_O._Kelso


Just my dos centavos

robdogbucky

[laughingliberal]

45. Sounds as if we're there nt

[RKP5637]

18. We live in a failed propped up system covered with band-aids and dressings changed

from time to time. Monopolies and greed exist and are fostered as part of the system. The system rewards wealth, not the people.

The wealth is cornered by a few percentage points of the population, our politicians are bought and paid for by corporations. Decisions are made for short term gain and any planning is reactionary rather than proactive. And on top of that is an ever growing ignorant populace and damn proud of it... And, we have a nation generally at war with someone, it's good business for the MIC. I'll stop here.

[roamer65]

19. The large banks are "zombie" banks as Nouriel Roubini calls them.

They are the primary cause for the massive credit constriction we are currently experiencing. They cannot effectively estimate their future losses and thus are hoarding capital in response. THey are damaging the economy in their present state.

Nationalize them, break them up and re-capitalize the spin-offs.

[kentuck]

22. We should seriously study the German model ..

that has worked very effectively during this recession/depression. Unemployment has not been a problem in Germany. They have figured out a way for people to keep their jobs and livelihoods, unlike American capitalism.

[frebrd]

23. I despise the whole concept of capitalism........

and always have!

[OHdem10]

26. Kentuck, the economy is the pitts. About Capitalism, the GOP

starting with Reagan perverted Capitalism by essentially turning
all power over to the Corporations and Financial Institutions.
Deregulation (freed them to do as they pleased) and Trade
Policies which made us the Chumps.(Give all worker's jobs away
and permitted every Tom Dick and Harry to bring their goods in
here to sell). The combination doomed us.

Capitalism is an economie system which can be used for good
or used for evil. In this instance, guess which.

The GOP perverted Capitalism into Corporatism.

The merger of the State(Government) and Corporatism is fascism

[Deja Q]

27. I have more faith in finding someone who cherishes monogamy and building a life together.

(Albeit, not by much...)

Good luck to us all.

[AllentownJake]

28. Human beings will always engage in trade

and always have. Unregulated Capitalism however does not equate to trade and banking is a scourge on mankind, just read the Bible.

[JanMichael]

29. None. nt.

[blues90]

34. Remember the firestone tires coming apart and they knew about it?

That's how much faith I have in capitalism or our government and our media.

[LWolf]

35. I don't have any faith in capitalism or the banking system.

I do not believe that the Democratic Party is "on my side."

:(

[L0oniX]

37. ZERO !

[Initech]

40. I'm for capitalism, against de-regulation.

Thanks to your Tycos, Enrons, Adelphias, Global Crossings, and so on, we have seen just how destructive de-regulated capitalism can get - it has fucked us all.

[Honeycombe8]

41. Capitalism? Lots of faith. The banking system? Not much. But with regulation...

it could become worthwhile.

[Odin2005]

43. Big Fat 0

Summers needs to go.

[natrat]

46. i am starting to get worried now with what they are doing with the dollar

if it does keep dropping our standard of living will be toast. That combined with the heavy authoritarian vibe coming from washington these days is creepy. The family,or whoever is running things seemingly has no problem seeing regular people suffer. The question is just how far are they going to go. I'm not sure i want to know.

[unkachuck]

47. none whatsoever....

....since the beginning of this depression, corporate shills have been out in force trying to convince us that capitalism is capable of being rehabilitated and redeemed....but history has shown, capitalism has bubbled and crashed over and over many many times and will continue to do so....

....attempts to moderate or regulate capitalism have mostly failed; why else would the bubble/bust cycle repeat itself?....before the ink is ever dried, capitalists have maneuvered around any new regulations or authorities imposed by the state to moderate their corrupt behavior....we need to put free-market capitalism on the ash-heep of history alongside totalitarian Communism and create a new hybrid system....

....we need to marry the best of a market based system with Socialism in a new regulated hybrid model....if we won't do it, the Chinese will....

[scarletwoman]

49. Capitalism is cancer. It is a death sentence.

[closeupready]

50. The current banking system? Almost zero. But capitalism IN THEORY is a good system.

But what we have now is NEPOTISM/CRONYISM whatever - it's faux capitalism - it's like capitalism's pundits have all been bought off in order not to decry the corruption that has essentially destroyed the foundations of capitalism.