People are not assholes for putting their elderly relatives into nursing care.

[Hello_Kitty]

In another thread where I have been labeled DU Public Enemy Number One that's about families and children, one of the subjects that has come up relates to the care of elderly parents and who should be doing it. An opinion commonly expressed on DU is that people should care for elderly family members in their own homes and that Americans are horrible for the way we relegate our old people to, as one DUer put it, "the nursing home gulag". Invariably there will be a comparison to those Hard Working Immigrants^TM who never let Grandma languish in some cold heartless nursing home. Because, you know, we evil Amurkins just don't love our Grandmas the way they do.

Leaving aside the lovely ethnic stereotyping going on there, these types of comments reveal a stunning level of ignorance about nursing care. First off, it's not like you can just pack Grandma off to the home at the first sign of forgetfulness. There are specific criteria for qualifying for long term care, whether you are privately insured or get care from the state. You typically have to be unable to perform at least 2 of what are called Activities of Daily Living - bathing, dressing, eating, transferring, using the toilet, and continence. A person with some loss of those abilities may be able to be assisted by relatives for a time but in many cases elderly people require the kind of care that not even the most loving and best intentioned family member can give them unless that person has been trained as a health aid or geriatric nurse. How many people can intubate, catheterize, or put an IV in an 85 year old? If you can, great, but I can't and neither can most other people. How many people are equipped to deal with advanced stage dementia or Alzheimer's? Not many. Not even many of those hard-working-and-love-their-families-more-than-you immigrants.

My own mom died in a nursing home at the relatively young age of 66. She developed severe health problems that impacted her brain and bodily functioning to the extent that it became necessary that she receive 24 hour care. It was not care that I or my sister could have provided even if we both quit our jobs and devoted ourselves to it. Yes, I visited her as often as I could.

In a society where life spans are ever increasing it is outrageously cruel to guilt trip people into thinking they should spend decades of their own lives caring for aged relatives or tell them they are bad people for making the decision to get their relatives the best care available for them while going on with their own lives. I may be an asshole to a lot of people on DU for some of the opinions I express but I'm not an asshole for putting my mom in a nursing home.

[dsc]

1. amen

My 97 year old grandmother is currently living with her 60 year old daughter and her husband (they had 6 kids, the youngest is 23 so they have had only a couple years kidless). She has become an increasing burden on them (at least she is able to pay her way) and I think it is intolerably selfish of her. I know nursing homes suck but sometimes they are needed.

[katkat]

182. I'm sorry for your grandmother, amen

That her children view her as a burden. And if they wanted a lot of time "kidness," perhaps they shouldn't have irresponsibly popped out six of them.

[sorcrow]

2. Well said

It's not black and white, good and evil as some might like to think. My mother also died in a nursing home. She had better care there than what I could have provided. Not one of us has the unlimited time, money and skills to do everything.
Regards,
Sorghum

[niyad]

19. welcome to DU

[patrice]

56. mmmmmmmm!! sorghum!! one of my favorite things! Welcome to DU!

[JohnnyLib2]

3. For sure.

Many lives, many stories. I've run out of patience with the "one size fits all" comments on that subject.
:hug:

[NYC_SKP]

4. I can't believe you were flamed over that. Nobody knows what you go through.

I'm going through it now, doing all I can to keep mom and dad able to stay home.

Dad came home yesterday after his Medicare covered days as a mixed care facility were up.

Now I have two parents in wheelchairs, still in their home a mile from mine, one has dementia, the other is very forgetful.

And I love them to death.

EDIT: Forgot to add that I probably SHOULD pressure them to move into a care facility where the risk of re-injury or death is lower.

If and when I do anyone who criticizes can kiss my ass.

[mopinko]

imho, sooner is always better than later.

nobody ever wants to go. but the sooner you go, the more faculties you have to adjust. my mil was so disoriented when we put her in assisted living that we had to cut off her phone privileges. she would constantly call us all to say that she didn't know where she was, or what was happening. it was sad, but sad for us too to have those calls, and to be unable to help her figure it out.

[NYC_SKP]

17. I'm working on them, but would like for it to be their choice.

Mom had been ready for years, dad resisted.

Now dad is ready (having already spent 5 months in two visits this year), but mom doesn't want to go.

With dad home since yesterday, maybe she'll change (without there having to be another incident).

Thanks.

:hug:

[mopinko]

34. sometimes you have to put your foot down, i guess.

some folks will never choose to go. or can't choose to go because they don't have access to those kinds of thought processes any more.
my mom lived in an apartment that my sister owned. when mom had her second fall/broken bone, my sister got her set up in an assisted living place, and moved one of her kids into the apartment while she was in the hospital. too bad, she told her.
some of us were a little upset, but my sister had felt so guilty for letting her go back after the first fall. she just wasn't gonna let anything happen to her.

we had to go through it all over again when she had to go to a nursing home from assisted living. but mom refused to live with any of us. she didn't want us changing her diaper. i can understand that, myself. sometimes there is that whole aspect to that.

people who give someone a hard time over putting someone on a nursing home probably has a sister they know will take care of it, because everyone in the family knows that person is too big of a dick to count on.

[patrice]

57. See if you can find one of these:

http://www.ncbcapitalimpact.org/default.aspx?id=146

or one of these:

http://www.edenalt.org/

[gblady]

171. great suggestion....

I am passionate about changing the culture of the elders in our society...
and both the Eden alternative and Green House alternative are a huge step in the right direction.

While I understand that every situation is unique and there is no one-fits-all solution,
we do not have an elder friendly society...and I am looking forward to that coming to an end soon.

There can be places for elders to live in a much more humane and dignified manner.

There are some good books out there about the culture change that is now happening...

"Old age in the New Age - the promise of transformative nursing homes" by Beth Baker
"What are Old People for? -how elders will save the world" and
"Life Worth Living - how someone you love can still enjoy life in a nursing home" both by Dr. William Thomas

I want to do what I can to make a positive difference.

[patrice]

200. Pleased to meet you gblady! Yes!! Me too!!! I feel very blessed to help

this issue progress and to develop awareness amongst people most of whom really are hiding from a very difficult and painful fact.

I am "a child of the '60s" so it's really wonderful to me personally to be part of something that makes a significant difference in people's lives. Not to mention helping to create opportunities for more love to flourish, instead of the struggle and stress and guilt that characterizes the status-quo for so many.

[Hello_Kitty]

21. The emotions you go through watching your once vital parent deteriorate are indescribable

That's another factor that I forgot to touch on in my post. It's not just whether or not you are physically and financially capable of taking care of your elderly relative, there's also whether you are emotionally equipped for the reality of changing her diaper or easing her sense of panic and disorientation.

[tblue]

161. My mil has advanced stage dementia.

She lives at home with a live-in caretaker, but I don't know how long she can remain there. She's about to get a wheelchair, too. I don't know what's gonna happen next but my husband once promised her he'd never put her in "a home." I used to worry that she'd one day move in with us and I would be the one changing her diaper and bathing her, because my husband I can't imagine doing that. So the work would all fall to me.

I think every family has to make its own decisions and it's nobody else's place to judge. I'm sorry people hurt you. They were wrong. :hug:

My dad, rest his soul, planned everything out so my mom could always remain independent of her children. He also paid for both of their funeral arrangements. When he passed away, I realized his preplanning was the kindest, most generous thing a parent could do for his/her children.

[Kajsa]

207. Exactly!

My mother who just turned 90,is now in a board and care facility, having two serious falls
when she lived in an assisted living apartment.

She can't take care of herself now, and she's frightened that she will fall
every time she needs to move.

I tried helping her our of bed and threw my back out, having Degenerative
Disk Disease and arthritis myself. The two of us were yelling in pain.

She doesn't want to live with either of her kids, myself or my brother.
That was her decision a while back.

Her mind is going and it's very difficult on all of us.
She was an incredibly intelligent, sharp lady. Now, she is often confused
and very depressed.

We try to be optimistic, but sometimes that's very hard
to do when it tears us apart to see her deteriorate.
We can only imagine how hard it is on her- that's a large part of the pain.

We are always supportive of her and cherish whatever time we have left with her.

[tosh]

23. NYC_SKP, my situation was very much like yours -

mom with dementia, dad with failing body & organs. I'd promised to help them live at home (2 blocks away from me) as long as I felt they were safe there. The last year of that was so intense, I really can't say how I physically survived it. I had no siblings to help but I was able to hire someone to stay with mom while I went with dad to gazillions of appointments, or to drive him to ones that didn't require my ears (he was practically deaf) and my memory/knowledge of his medical records.

By the time I moved them into an ALF because the falls were becoming more frequent, I actually worried I had let them live at home too long.

I have no regrets, though, about my decision to move them. Dad is gone now but my mom (89)is more contented and settled than I've seen her in years. She gets GREAT care and lots of attention from an amazing staff that has special training in the care of dementia patients.

The decisions were tough ones but I DARE anyone to second guess me. They had reached a point of needing more care and safety than I was capable of providing.

[NYC_SKP]

27. Somehow the strength comes to us. They are worth the work.

Odd how at first it was frustrating, having to go over there several times a day-- and employed full time.

I always went at least once or twice a day, but on a bad day it would be better just to live there.

When dad first went in for a long stay in March I was sleeping there with mom but finally hired people.

Now I have four people chipping in to cook, clean, shop, and someone there at night.

But indeed, doctors appointments HAVE to be attended with someone with good hearing, a memory, and most of all, who truly cares.

Good Job, tosh!

:hug:

[tosh]

29. Back atcha, NYC_SKP - Good Job!

I'm glad for all I've been able to do for them. They were great parents to me and they deserve(d) my best. It sounds as though you have that same wonderful relationship with yours.

We are very fortunate, you and I.

edit sp.

[Kajsa]

208. Well stated, Tosh.

"reached a point of needing more care and safety than I was capable of providing."

That's exactly where I am at with my 90 year old Mother.

:hug:

[patrice]

55. .

:grouphug:

NGU!

[NYC_SKP]

103. Thank you...

:grouphug:

.

[Duende azul]

64. She wasn't flamed over that in the other thread.

She entered a discussion on another topic in a very rude manner.
And I don't know why that has to be brought up in this thread, seems something personal.

Her OP could have perfectly stood alone. And it would have been fine.

As is your post.

[NYC_SKP]

109. It matters not. This post is her post and the topic is decisions made regarding aging parents.

She's free to refer to other thread where she felt hurt, and she had the sense not to link to the other thread.

I didn't go over there to read it, I'm not too concerned with how justified her feelings are.

But thanks for explaining nonetheless.

[Fire1]

101. That is such a sweet pic. I've always opted for in-home

health care services. Of course, a relative has always been in residence, as well, just to keep an eye out. I would not recommend this if your parents live alone.

[NYC_SKP]

106. Thanks. I've got multiple helpers in place, someone staying overnight every night...

... and people who come to serve them breakfast and dinner, and my own dropping in and taking care of meds and doctor appointments.

Who knew you could fit both of them AND their wheelchairs into a Prius?

But soon, I think, they'll want to move.

There are some really nice apartments connected to the facility where my dad just left.

In reality, they'd have more freedom and independence than they do at home.

:thumbsup:

[MUAD_DIB]

163. Take care of your parents and you SHOULD pressure them...gently.

Don't waste any time in doing that. The sooner the better.



Things have changed dramatically for my family in the last month and a half with my dad.

My mom now realizes that she can't care for him. My brothers now realize that dad isn't coming home and have had to convince mom of that.

[cali]

5. judgmental assholes all those people are.

My dad died in a long term care home. it's a terrific place. the care was excellent and there was no way he could be cared for at home.

[shraby]

6. I agree with you. My father is capable of dressing,

and performing all the functions he needs to do. He has dementia and forgets pills, etc. If you would mention he needs a shower you would be informed he had one already...and get quite nasty about it. Left to his own devises he would be months without a shower. Would't take his pills like he should even though you handed them to him, he would invariably say "I don't take pills" and was just as apt to throw them on the floor. Was becoming more and more anti-social many times and sometimes violence was narrowly averted. The best place for him was the nursing home. When we put him in there, his window of memory was about 10 minutes max. If you left the room, he wouldn't remember you had visited him. It takes professionals to care for people like this. Many times family members cannot do it because of the very fact that they are family members and the patient will not take instructions from them.

[Poiuyt]

7. Putting your parents into a home can be a loving thing to do, but not visiting them is a sin

My mother, who had Alzheimer's, actually flourished in a nursing home. She was able to get good care and plenty of companionship. What made my blood boil were families who would dump their loved ones and then never come to visit them.

[shanti]

78. the families who don't visit their parents

while they're in nursing homes, most likely did NOT visit them when they weren't in nursing homes. do you know the family history? who gives you the right to judge?

[quakerboy]

114. I work in a lot of care facilities

The patients are generally nice to me, because I get to be their reward. But many of the ones I work with have long histories of treating their families like crap. When I read some of the histories, I understand why some families do not come to visit.

For myself, I try to get over to visit grandma. She deserves it. When grandpa goes, he can rot. The only thing he has ever given this family was genetics for good hair, and decades upon decades of abuse.

[patrice]

134. Endless good hair days?????

DEAL!

:rofl:

[KT2000]

8. Sorry you were treated badly

for your position on nursing homes.
You are absolutely right that the level of care exceeds that which family members could provide unless they were specially trained.
Just went through this with an elderly friend. She cared for her husband who was paralyzed with a stroke - she was in her 80s. They had a visitng nurse not often and used 911 as their call button. When her husband died after several years, she fell apart with advanced symptoms of Parkinsons'. It was not long before she had to go into a nursing home. She would have to have been transported to the emergency room many times for the crises that came up. Of course it was not what everyone wanted for her but the level of care was better in the nursing home.

Longer lives sometimes means a longer dying process. The stress of caring for someone in that state takes a real toll on the caregiver (and it usually falls to one person).

[Whisp]

127. she was not treated badly, she was acting like a jerk. n/t

[frazzled]

9. I agree with you entirely

When putting my husband's mother (aged 92 at the time) in a nursing home near us came up, I was skeptical and guilt-ridden. It turned out to be the best decision we ever made. Her physical health had deteriorated dramatically after a fall and an illness, and her dementia was fairly severe. After a hospitalization, she was not allowed to return to the assisted living near my husband's sister, who had helped care for her for the five previous years.

I am still amazed at the level of care--both physical, emotional, and therapeutic--she received at this wonderful facility. And because it was right next to a hospital, care was immediate and coordinated (she spent time there for a stroke, and two severe infections). We were able to spend time with her about three times a week for the last 3 years of her life. We could not have cared for her at this level ourselves, and our lives and jobs would have been ruined.

Good nursing care is a blessing, and for some patients, a necessity.

My father is 93 and in excellent shape mentally and physically. If he needed to, he could move in with us and we could take good care of him. My mother-in-law was a different story: she truly did need 24-hour skilled nursing care.

[Lex]

10. My 88 yr old grandmother broke her leg in 2 places and needs more care

than the family is able to pull together and she is at a nursing home receiving medical care and recuperation. She gets plenty of family visitation there, and plenty of good care from the nursing staff.

Why would anyone think this is wrong?

[TheCowsCameHome]

11. Let's see how well these do-gooders make out when their time comes.

Bet they'll be singing a different tune then.

I dont understand why you were flamed.

[Duende azul]

141. She wasn't flamed for what she is claiming here.

And no one called her an asshole.
Although she acted - well - rude. Judgmental to the extreme about poor people's decision to have children. That's what she earned critics for.
The title of this OP is grossly misleading.

The longer a look at it, the less I get the purpose of this OP.
It's a given no one is up to jugde the decision.
If she wanted to talk this issue with people in similar situations fine. And much needed.
But why put the whole flamebaiting (referencing the other thread) thingy in?

[queenjane]

12. Thank you!

In my own family, I've seen people live so long (well into their 90s), that their "kids" are too frail and beset with health problems to take care of themselves, much less their parents.

I fear I'll be facing this decision in the future. My own mother is 81 and pretty healthy and independent, but she had a recent fall at home that, while not breaking any bones, seemed to diminish her. She's now scared, cautious, and spiritless. I've warned her that once she can't take care of herself or develops dementia, a nursing home will be our only choice. As a single woman, I must work. My only brother is out of the picture, so I can't rely on him for help. Our close relatives live in another state.

Condemning others for life choices you haven't personally had to cope with is the height of hypocrisy and arrogance. Thank you, Hello_Kitty, for broaching this issue.

[katkat]

183. queenjane

Have you gotten your mom one of those "lifeline" buttons to wear? The legitimate low cost ones tied into a hospital, not the rips offs "as seen on tv"? That might make your mom less anxious.

[imdjh]

13. Most people have never been in long term care, so it scares them.

I have. Not nursing home care, but I have spent a great deal of time in the hospital. At sixteen I was in for about three months. At 36 I was in for a month and then had a month of recovery.

In both cases, my parents wore themselves out. They were there every day, for which I am grateful because it helps to have a healthy and authoritative person on your side against hospital staff, which can be presumptuous, pushy, indifferent, or sometimes mean though most are professional and kind. But they wore themselves out because they were both working all day and coming to the hospital all night and stuff like that.

ANYWAY, about being in the hospital for a long time- you get used to it. You get used to the routine, the predictability, the standards. When I came home from the hospital when I was 16, I found the house to be chaotic. The lack of schedule was emotionally disturbing to me. There were no nurses, no maids, no dietitians, no volunteers except for my entire family.

Yes, we would all love to die like Forest Gump's mother.... sitting up in bed, reading a book, and just feeling a bit tired after lunch. But in real life, you shit the bed and who wants to leave the family with that? Besides, these are not your grandma's nursing homes. As long as you are able, you can come and go as long as someone can get you around. And when you can't do that anymore, it's probably time.

[icnorth]

14. H.K. an @sshole you are not...

my wife, her sister and brothrs have been dealing with this for the past three years. Both of their parents had to be placed in a nursing home at basically the same time and their mom just died this month. 24 hour care provided by the family was an absolute impossibility. In the nursing home they received excellent care and interaction with the caregivers. On Halloween night her mom was sitting in her wheel chair beside her attendant helping pass out treats to the kids. Four days later she passed away in hospital. The family by not placing them in a nursing home would have been a much greater disservice.

[old mark]

15. My wife's cousin has been trying to get her mon to go to a

retirement community for several years. Her mom is 83, having some memory loss and balance problems, lives alone in an apartment requiring 14 stairs to enter or leave, won't even get a Life Alert system. She is the only one of her generation still alive in our family - her sister recently died of complications after a fall, her brother died several years ago of various long term illnesses. She can no longer drive, and lives far from any grocery or other stores in a neighborhood near Philly not as safe as it once was.
People put their parents into a more sheltered environment to try to ease the last years of their lives, and to to ease their own worry.


mark

ADDED: My dad has been living in 2 different retirement establishments for almost 15 years. He will be 93 on Jan 1, and would not be alive if he were trying to live on his own. He really enjoys not having to take care of a house any more, too.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

113. Well, OldMark

maybe time for a power of attorney delegated to a family member? This is a disaster waiting to happen. The stairs, the forgetfulness, the balance problems - if no one checks in on her 3 or 4 times a day, she could fall and lie there helpless and seriously injured. She's in a very dangerous situation and I wish your family well trying to resolve this.

[old mark]

188. About half of that side of the fmily is lawyers - I am sure this has occurred to them.

I agree this is a bad situation, and it weighs heavily on everyone's mind.

mark

[niyad]

16. k and r-- I am, alas, not surprised that you were flamed for your comments--

the level of obtuseness and lack of awareness on this board is pitiful sometimes.

Unless a person is qualified to handle all the complexities of a person who needs a lot of care, and supervision, who knows how to deal with dementia, incontinence, and all the other situations, I say, shut the fuck up. Unless you have been there, and know what the HELL you are talking about, don't you DARE pass judgment.

I have done this sort of work for years--and I know it is something not everyone can do. and frankly, when asked my opinion, I tell people that, unless they had a good and loving relationship with the parent/s, they really need to look into a care facility, or be prepared to pay someone else to look after the parent/s in their own home as long as possible. Cruel and heartless, some would say, to which I reply as above. Not everyone can deal, for example, with a person with dementia who was bad-tempered and mean to begin with, and the dementia only exacerbates things. in some cases, this can be a time of healing and reconciliation, but I have seen it go the other way far too often.

we need better systems for dealing with age and illness and debilitation. not all care facilities are bad, I have seen some that are excellent. not all in-home situations are good, either. this is a call each person has to make (oh, and by the way, in so many cases, the complete care of the parent falls on an already overworked woman)

betty friedan in "the fountain of age" had some good suggestions, and similar ones were made as part of an ongoing story arc in a mystery series I read.

[Hello_Kitty]

24. There are some promising developments in LTC.

Many LTC insurance policies are designed to provide in-home alternatives to nursing homes and even some state governments are cluing into the fact that it's actually cheaper and better to let an indigent person stay in her home and receive nurse and personal attendant visits than to put her in a facility. There are even programs in some areas where family members who want to provide the care can receive appropriate training and be compensated somewhat for it.

[niyad]

28. that is a good start, but so much more needs to be done, and yet, people are really reluctant to

deal with this issue. fear, more than anything, I guess, because most of us are going to end up facing this situation, and it is uncomfortable for many.

[Cerridwen]

18. Yes. Exactly what you said.

The only people criticizing you are those who haven't yet been there. Even the "easiest" loved one to care for, should they require 24 hour care, is too much for anyone who needs to sleep sometime during any 24 hour time frame.

We're not quite there...yet. But, the conversations and discussions have begun. *sigh*

[Whisp]

131. like raising a child, 24 hour care and not so much sleep.

and years of worry and tending.
I guess some parents think thats too hard to do and give up their children as well...

let the flames begin.

[Cerridwen]

133. Not quite.

You expect your child to not know how to tie their shoes, know their right from their left, not know basic spelling and language. Your parent? Not so much.

You have to realize that someone who taught you to tie your shoes and know right from left has now lost all that information. Your parent "loses" words and pronouns and the sense of time. Your child was just learning them. Your parent taught you many things; now you must re-teach, for the short term; those things to your parent.

It's the same; but not.

You've not yet been there, I guess. Or you'd know.

[wickerwoman]

168. Yes, but you choose to have children.

You don't choose to spend 15 years taking abuse and changing the diaper of someone who barely acknowledged your existence when you were a kid with no end in sight and no hope that it will ever get better.

You are also generally able to plan child-rearing so that you approach it when you are in a relationship and have a support system and are reasonably financially stable.

As a single women who lives 5000 miles away from my parents and who has been struggling financially, how am I supposed to deal with elder care? Should I have quit my job at 23 and spent the last ten years taking care of my parents? How am I supposed to enter the job market at 38 with no previous work experience? Spending 15 years of your prime working life emptying bedpans and making medicine schedules would be financially devastating for many young people.

You can't compare the two situations because childcare is a choice and something you can plan for and eldercare can happen at any time and can be absolutely financially and emotionally crippling.

[katkat]

187. sounds like a lot of people in here not wanting to take care of their parents had abusive parents

Fortunately, most people have normal relationships with their parents.

And yes I've been there done that with caring for elderly relatives. So not everyone who thinks the elderly shouldn't be booted out of home environments has no idea of the situation.

[Hello_Kitty]

194. That was kind of unnecessary. eom

[wickerwoman]

212. What a strange post... are you sure you're responding to the right person?

You can have a "normal" relationship with your parents and still not be a position to help them when the time comes. Many people in the current economy can barely help themselves.

There's a difference between helping and completely sacrificing your own life to their care and very often what is "traditionally" expected is that one of the daughters will do the latter. But that can have devastating consequences for her because eldercare can go on for decades and takes place during what is often her only chance to start her own family and build up enough assets to retire on herself. And asking one of your children to give those things up for you is a huge flashing red light on the parent-child dynamic, regardless of "abuse".

And unless you know everything about the relationships *in that specific family*, how can you judge the children for not completely sacrificing their lives (quitting their jobs, moving, taking time away from their own children, etc.) for parents who might also not have been completely self-sacrificing?

It seems like a lot more scorn is heaped on indifferent children than indifferent parents but in many cases the one is the result of the other. Sorry, but in my experience that's "normal". 50% of parents are below average, as they say. Many families are oppressive and spirit-crushing. The point is that *you don't know*... and without knowing the specific dynamics and the specific situation, you can't say what "should" or "shouldn't" happen when caring for elderly relatives.

The point of the OP is that in many situations, nursing homes are better equipped to take care of elderly people. That's not "booting them out of their home"... it's dealing with a heart-breaking problem in the best way you know how. And there are many situations where it is far more responsible to seek professional care than to try to deal with a dangerous situation yourself.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

20. We had to put my grandmother in a home recently.

It was a pretty hideous decision to have to make, but there weren't many alternatives. She'd had a stroke, didn't remember anyone or much of anything about her past life, tried to drink coffee with a butter knife, etc. She lived with my mom up until then, but my mom has to work and can't be there 24 hours a day. So when Grandma gets incoherent and decides that her pillows are too cold and wants to heat them up on the stove... what do you do in that situation? It wasn't fun, and we didn't want to do it, but there was simply no alternative.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[etherealtruth]

25. we need to make sure that the elderly receive the best care possible ...

... sometimes that occurs in their home, the homes of their children (or other relatives) and sometimes the best choice is a nursing home.

My first career was as a nurse .... I consistently tell my children that if it were to become necessary they should place me in a nursing home without guilt or hesitation (of course this is followed by a long list of "how to identify a good nursing home" criteria).

My ten years in nursing was spent (largely) in two specialties; the first was gero-psych and the second (and lions share) was Hospice nursing (when hospice care was in the waning stages of a grass-roots movement in health-care). Though, I have taught and witnessed family member care givers learn and do amazing things .... the important thing is to recognize our own limitations ... be they financial (I have two parents in their early 70's .... I also have two teen-aged children ... I could NOT quit my job to provided 24 hour care), be temperament (I am not necessarily a patient person) ... or whatever ... believe me, though most people can be taught procedures .... many, many people just can't do them for a loved one.

I have witnessed the horrific toll taking care of someone with a dementing illness can take on a family .... the dangers the patient and family 9caregivers) can be placed in.

The simple act of placing a loved one in a nursing home does NOT make them an a$$-hole.


"NURSING HOME PATIENTS: (2000) About 2/3rd's of people in nursing homes have no living relatives. And about 70% of all nursing home patients are women."
http://www.efmoody.com/longterm/nursingstatistics.html

Roughly 4.4 percent of the elderly population lives in nursing homes. Nursing home care is a $100 billion per year industry, with about 90 percent of its services consumed by the elderly.<7> The total expenditure on nursing home care per elderly resident is about $52,000 per year, on average, and Medicaid pays for nearly $25,000 of that, on average.
http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/wm875.cfm

[niyad]

26. do NOT, under ANY circumstances, promise that you will NOT put a parent or loved one in

a nursing home. I have seen this scenario way too often, the spouse, for example, making this promise, and then being unable to care for the other one, to the detriment of all. one of the worst was two very dear friends of mine, where the husband had made the wife promise he would never go into a home. he had severe dementia, and multiple health problems, and it was long past her ability to care for him (even with my help) there were countless trips to the emergency room, endless problems, but she stuck to her promise. the night before he died, this gentle little man completely flipped out, assaulted his wife, and was so violent that it took FOUR very large emergency personnel to subdue him. this is something that nobody should have to go through--from either side.

(H-K, this wasn't directed at you, because I know you have the wisdom not to)

[laughingliberal]

87. Amen to that! When I worked in Hospice I had sooo many families whose

loved ones had progressed way beyond what they were capable of providing. I would schedule as many aid visits as I could and I would visit daily but it was still too much. When I would broach the subject of placement they would say, "We promised him/her we would never 'put him/her anywhere." I had caregivers who completely broke down under the strain. I had a caregivers sustain injuries trying to control confused, combative patients. I had one caregiver who died before the patient. There is no shame in placing a relative whose care has exceeded the average person's capacity. A short term situation (couple of weeks) with plenty of family support may work. But few people can provide round the clock care for more than about a week before it takes a toll on them. I often told the family members the stress drove me to exhaustion a lot of days and I got to go home at night.

The fact is that studies have shown the average caregiver actually shortens their own life expectancy by taking on this level of care over a period of years. Much better to choose a good facility and visit often to support the loved one.

[patrice]

99. Don't you think too that families can give their Love more freely without the stress of having to

get it all exactly right?

They can concentrate on what they know the most about - how to love the person.

[laughingliberal]

102. That was how I saw it.

In the cases where the families did make that decision, things were so much better. They still had us following and providing additional support for the facility staff, patient, and them. When I would visit the family would be there at bedside visiting and looking sooo much more rested and relaxed. I mean, God bless 'em for wanting to do it themselves but that would be beyond me in most of these cases and I'm a trained professional.

[patrice]

107. Depending upon the working relationships involved, it could be a very liberating and loving

experience.

:grouphug: God bless you for what you are doing, laughingliberal! :grouphug:

[Fire1]

118. I agree and have witnessed some aspects of this dilemma.

A devoted and dedicated health care worker lived with my aunt for nine years. Round the clock care that finally took it's toll and my aunt is not what I consider one of those difficult cases but the worker was no spring chicken and not in the best of health herself. I moved my aunt to live with me and I think she's alot better off. There are no steps to climb. I take the time to make creative tasty custom made meals (everything has to be blended=no chewing) and changed physicians. I've found that once you settle into a routine, it's really not that bad.

[jwirr]

30. In most states no one can just PUT grandma in the nursing home.

That used to happen but now with our nursing homes filling up and often with a waiting list there are screenings that are given by family, social services and public health to see if they need to be placed. The goal of the screening is to provide the least confining situation the patient can be placed in. If this panel determines that the patient is capable of staying in their own home with or without help then they cannot be admitted to the nursing home. Usually the panel determines the type of help the patient will need and finds ways to provide it through family, home health services and other community services. Only when there is no other way to care for the patient are they admitted to a nursing home.

The nursing homes are more intensive care units now. Years ago seniors often lived in them for years. One of my relatives chose to live there rather than with family and I think she must have been there for at least 20 years. For her it was not a bad decision as she kept active throughout those years and even had a gentleman friend.

This screening started in order to place people in the least restrictive setting and to also save money if possible. It is in response to the coming need of the baby boomers.

[Swamp Rat]

31. .

:hug:

[Gormy Cuss]

32. No, they're not. People are assholes for arguing without listening,

for using snide remarks rather than relevant replies, and for failure to apology when a comment is rude and irrelevant. But back to the subject at hand:

Even the best nursing homes aren't as good as being near loving family. What's wrong with our approach to caring for fragile elders is that we don't have better integration of services and active supports to allow families to take on as much responsibility for a relative's care as they are able -- and that's not just financially able, it's also emotionally and physically able to provide care.

Right now nursing homes are the best place for many very fragile seniors but other countries have more supportive systems to allow more people to stay in their own homes with relatives helping out and I hope that some day we adopt such an approach.

[cali]

37. there are some people who will still need to be in a long term care facility

it just wasn't an option for him to stay at home even though my parents had built their retirement home with that in mind, including an elevator and a handicap accessible bathroom.

[Gormy Cuss]

41. The number would be a small fraction of the population in LTC today

and I wouldn't second guess the OP's decision because a)I have no reason to do, and b)I tend to take OPs at their words.

Reliance on nursing home facilities is a really antiquated approach when people really only need a home health aide level of care, but we have a system that makes it easier financially to have fragile seniors in congregate care facilities away from families that don't have the resources to fund home care. It's pretty backward, but it's what we have now and the best one can hope for is that the relative gets into a good facility.

[Hello_Kitty]

40. Again, you're entitled to think I'm an asshole for my opinions on DU

And what you consider my appalling lack of deference to a certain group who feels itself automatically entitled to it but this post is about nursing care and people's ignorance about it and their uninformed cultural assumptions. Speaking of which, I don't know where you've been the past 10 years but those integrations of supports and services of which you speak are already happening. The majority of people receiving long term care in the U.S. now receive it in their homes. I know it's tres chic on DU to bash America, Americans, and everything associated with our country and culture while romanticizing (and making gross assumptions about) other countries and cultures, but we don't colossally fuck up everything we do here. But even with improvements in the delivery of care it's still incredibly dick-ish to expect your adult children to sacrifice their own lives for your long term care. It's right up there with pressuring them to give you grandchildren when they're not really sure if they even want kids, IMHO.

[Gormy Cuss]

50. There's a difference between being an asshole and acting like one on DU.

I didn't call you an asshole, but you apparently thought the description fit. Why is that?

In the last ten years I've had experiences with senior care needs in my own family and those of friends and have read enough to know that we have miles to go compared to other countries in terms of improvements on LTC options.

I also said nothing about expecting adult children to "sacrifice their own lives" but apparently you think I did, so I suggest you reread my post where I made clear that not everyone is able, financially, physically, or emotionally, to care for their fragile elder family members but that we could as a country do more to provide supports for those that wish to do so. Apparently you consider that dick-ish.

[patrice]

61. There is no substitute for the continuous, 24/7, presence of experienced specialized medical

professionals.

Some people don't need it, or think they don't need it, okay.

"Integration of services" cannot duplicate what a good SNF or LTC home can do AND families can be just as near and loving as they WANT to be. There are no restrictions on that other than those that families wish to adopt for their own reasons.

[Gormy Cuss]

75. Agreed, when some one is in that dire a condition

but there are plenty of people in SNFs who don't need 24/7 nursing care and there are still far too many SNFs that are horrid places for care. I would never suggest that we could do away with all SNFs and LTCs - far from it -- only that we could do much better with regard to adequate supports for families who wish to keep their family members at home where it is practical to do so.

[patrice]

80. And if, policy-wise, it were to come down to competition for resources held in common?

Should programs that are doing the most good for the most people be cut to fund programs that are limited in that effect AND are comprised of persons who turned down the alternative to be in the more efficient programs?

Just sayin' . . .

[Gormy Cuss]

169. Obviously not, but that presumes that alternatives would be more costly

and that remains to be seen. It may instead be similar to the cost differences seen between medical attention on an inpatient vs. outpatient basis.

[quakerboy]

116. perhaps. perhaps not

(to the loving family part) Modern medicine has increased lifespan. There is a lot more to elder care than there used to be. And if you do it wrong, that's elder abuse.

As to the second part, yes there has got to be a better way, and I too hope we adopt a more integrated approach.

[WyLoochka]

33. My Mom - 92

Is in assisted living. She was with my sister and her husband until she got pneumonia. Lovely, safe set up. Catered to and fussed over and all. But, in hindsight, we realized she was booooorrrred at my sister's, which led to depression and probably the curling up in bed with a cold that went into pneumonia.

She went to the assisted living for recuperation and stayed. She loves it, although she was initially surprised about that. More people, more action, more mental and physical stimulation appropriate to her age.

If/when she needs nursing care, she will willingly go to the Long Term Care Center. She already knows a bunch of people who have made that transition.

She's much better off not being as bored as she was. My sister and BIL are great people, but they just couldn't provide all the stimulation she needed.

[noamnety]

35. The irony in our health care system is that people like you get guilted

for having medical staff care for someone with medical problems, and then we complain because in this country we are booted out of the hospital after major surgery before we're ready.

In Germany, I was kept in the hospital 10 days after a C-section, which was routine. Here, the standard is much less, and people express outrage over it. We generally don't think it's right to boot someone out and force them home if they can't care for themselves yet, and may not have anyone who can care for them 24/7.

The same people giving you grief would probably react very differently if they had major surgery and were sent packing while they still had catheters, feeding tubes, and needed the 24 hour sort of monitoring that you would have had to face long term with your mother.

[enough]

36. While I was caring for my two elderly parents, both invalids, I soon decided I would not listen to

advice or opinions from anyone who had not done the same kind of care personally every day and night for at least six months. And when I say doing the same kind of care, I mean ALL of it, including incontinence. One thing I notice is that most people who have actually done that work do not put other people down because of their decisions.

[sarge43]

38. My mother went into a nursing home because

her doctor told me either she went or I would be in the hospital. I was exhausted and near unspooling.

Not only don't we usually have the skills; more than often we don't have the endurance. It's a 24/7 job, no breaks, no relief, certainly no vacation. We can't go home at 5pm.

The real horror is there is no hope; every day is a bit worse than the one before. It's one thing to nurse someone through an illness or trauma; it's something else to watch someone you love die by inches, 24/7, for months, often years.

Oh yeah, my mother was receiving better care in the nursing home than the best I could provide. The staff was trained; I was not.

Don't let them get under your skin, Kitty. We did the right thing.

[pipi_k]

51. And that is something a lot of people don't understand...

that caregivers are under tremendous stress...often to the point that some of them end up dying before the people they're caring for.

I had my 93 year old MIL here for about five months back in 2005 after she broke her hip. Since I was the primary caregiver, I was terrified that I would end up getting sick myself and not be able to care for her.

We had to place her in a nursing home for about a month so we could get a bit of a respite. Once she got placed into a hospice program and the nurses were coming to the house all the time, I did get very sick, almost like my body felt it was now OK to do, since that was when the rest of the family finally stepped up and started coming over to help every single day. Anyway, I got sick, and didn't fully recover for a long time. I still suffer from partial deafness in my left ear from what I had.

People think it's so damned easy taking care of a someone with dementia or Alzheimers. Maybe they think you just lock them in a room someplace or tie them to a chair and that's it. In some respects it's almost worse than caring for a small child.

Anyway, someone upthread said it, and I'll add to the sentiment...anyone who thinks it's a fucking picnic being a caregiver and that it's not OK to put mom or dad or grandma in a nursing home, I certainly hope they get the chance to eat their words.

They'll never understand how difficult it is until they have to do it themselves.

[sarge43]

58. Thanks.

I don't wish the experience on anyone. It often reminds me of what someone said about combat: If you've been there, I don't have to explain. If not, I can't; you wouldn't understand.

And it's nothing like caring for a child. With a child, there's hope. Some day s/he will be self reliant. As said, with the old, there is none.

I swear I think I'll step in front of a speeding beer truck when my time comes.

[gblady]

174. I'm an Alzheimer's Association volunteer....

and facilitate a support group for caregiver's of persons with dementia....

Being a caregiver is one of the most difficult of life tasks...
physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually.

There is support out there for caregivers.

[shanti]

83. my father, 80

is terminally ill with cancer. we don't know which kind because dad won't allow the tests to be run to find out. he's ready to go. he's had half a lung removed due to lung cancer several years ago, has emphysema, and chronic COPD. my mother, 77, is a RN (retired), and even she has reached the end of her rope. So at the suggestion of dad's dr., hospice has been started for him. an aide comes into their home twice a week to bathe him, and a nurse comes in at least 3 times a week to do other medical procedures. i can hear the relief in mom's voice just after two weeks of the help.

i would never judge you for your life choices, and others shouldn't either! you do what you have to do - hang in there!

[sarge43]

94. Mom died several years ago.

Finally got my balance back.

It wasn't that Mom was difficult to care for. She was to the end a sweet natured person. What got to me was watching this vital, intelligent, gentle woman slowly drift away and lose everything that matter to her -- her hearing, her eyesight, her interest in the world, her ability to care for herself and for others. It was the emotional beating that did me in.

[Kajsa]

219. ---

My father died of pancreatic cancer.

:hug:

[shanti]

247. i'm so sorry...

:hug:

[Kajsa]

248. Thank you, Shanti.

:hug:

[druidity33]

39. link to the other thread...

just so people can really understand where you're coming from here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7103510

:)

[Hello_Kitty]

42. Here's a link to the subthread about nursing care

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7103510#7104385

Just so people can see the kind of ignorant racist assumptions I'm talking about.

[exboyfil]

43. My grandma is in a nursing home

and there is no way that even a single willing family member could deal with her. She is in a wheelchair and is a complete dead weight in any sort of manipulation. She weighs over 140#. They use special machines in the nursing home for her to go to the restroom (a portable potty) and into and out of bed, or into her recliner. She cannot control her bladder functions. She takes a cocktail of over 10 drugs that have to be managed daily. She can barely feed herself and needs frequent help in that area. She has frequent health problems in addition to the regular drugs (skin infections, bladder infections, etc). She can barely see and can no longer read.

She is on Medicare/Medicaid, and she is the single biggest reason that I am no longer a libertarian. About 2 1/2 years ago my aunt became unable to take care of her, and my mom basically hauled her to my state in antipication of me getting her into a nursing home. She then went back to her home, and she and my uncle visit about once or twice a year. I was fortunate that a spot was open in a local nursing home. I am not sure what would have happened otherwise. Even if an individual was available to take care of her at home, a single person could not do it.

I look at this from a societal perspective, and I really wonder how sustainable the situation is for the future. My grandmother is on the front end of a huge bubble of people who will require this care in the future. Our current Medicare/Medicaid laws only require poverty to access the system (which is not a problem for my grandmother since she has always been poor). The full cost for the nursing home is about $6,000/mo., and I can believe that the actual cost to maintain my grandmother is probably in the $3,000/mo. range when you consider all that needs to happen. That would represent most of my take home pay if I had to pay it (my grandmother pays about $1,300/mo. through her two pensions). The rest is covered by Medicare/Medicaid in a Byzantine structure that I cannot even begin to understand.


Medical reform - I am all for it.

[Hello_Kitty]

46. Unfortunately the health care reform does not deal with LTC.

Your choices are to self-insure (which not many people have the money to do), buy LTC insurance (an option for upper middle class people), or spend down your assets and go on state aid.

[patrice]

137. What? I thought something was posted here about a change in how LTC

care insurance is financed was included in the House bill.

I haven't followed up for several weeks, so I don't know now, but I'm certain I saw that before the House vote.

[Hello_Kitty]

138. Maybe the Medicaid aspect of it.

Most LTC isn't covered by Medicare. Hopefully they'll expand access to LTC through Medicaid.

[patrice]

149. No, I think it was a new type of LTC insurance, something more affordable.

What would REALLY be cool would be if they'd approach it more as a private investment.

Partnerships with public funds and private equity so that the private equity would have all or most of its usual characteristics but under LTC covenants, like neighborhood association agreements for LTC. Private equity that could appreciate in value along with the value of the enterprise, could be bought and sold or leased like real estate, and is even heritable would be real attractive, not only to Residents, but how about to Staff too?

[patrice]

44. My family has done what most Americans consider to be the ideal Elder Care.

It ISN'T the all nice and hunky-dorry, happy, golden-years' dream people think it is.

We built a fine home specifically for Mom & Dad. There are numerous of my siblings living around, and some at times even with, my parents. Grandchildren became nurses, so we had some pretty good first-tier advice. Others of my sisters are absolutely the MOST proactive, even aggressive, health care and community health services consumers you can imagine, in a community with plenty of resources. Some of them are strong women in business, a bank VP and such, and though they managed the care AND their own lives quite well, it DID absolutely cost them and their families a great, great deal and I don't mean just money.

After several years of trial-and-error, it has worked out okay for Mom, though she IS quite lonely and, hence, pretty drifty mentally, but Daddy? . . . not so much.... He has passed on now and the rest of us have reasons to continue to feel we could have done way better.

You should hear my son's story about an acquaintance at work who moved his extremely needy father into his home and seems to have been even further behind the curve than my family was. Same result in a shorter amount of time, with LOTS and LOTS of social-religious talk about family taking care of family, a little like some home-schoolers I have met.

The problem with the Elderly is that THE SMALLEST THINGS CAN MAKE HUGE DIFFERENCES in their well-being and functionality and if you don't REALLY really know what you're about, if you are in-experienced, you are at a severe, very severe disadvantage in figuring out what's going on and what to do about it, without making things worse.

Now . . . my MIL went into a long-term care home several years ago and her son was completely incapable of managing anything to do with her, so I was her sole advocate for 5-6 years. LTC homes differ a great deal. My MIL's was pretty good in basic ways, but qualities beyond that basic level were quite definitely missing and those human qualities made a HUGE psychological difference to a woman who was in her younger years THE go-to person for greater metro Chamber of Commerce PR. Psychological factors make a vital difference in what happens to an Elder's health. I visited her often and took her out to lunch and shopping. She did okay anyway where she lived, though she too was lonely like my mother, inspite of living with about 150 other people in a sprawling facility, and she was DEEPLY saddened by not having something meaningful to do (instead of sitting passively while well intentioned people from the community paraded in and out and "entertained" the Old Folks). Despite a couple of incidents, she did pretty good until the first signs of her dementia showed up, then the facility, which like all such facilities was chronically and almost acutely understaffed, had to decide how to devote additional resources to my MIL. The question wasn't about money; she had her own insurance and there was Medicare and Medicaid to handle anything her own insurance didn't cover and the nurses love the Medicare, because they know they can use it for whatever they see professionally fit. The problem was physical resources/space and the STAFFING needed to tend the demented, so with the onset of dementia came a big push to get her diagnosed in certain ways that then justified certain kinds of institutional approaches to her care.

Being with my MIL until she passed-on and seeing my siblings go through similar experiences in dealing with their MILs and FILs, and also my own professional life now, made me aware of the key difference amongst various types of Elder Care: What is the organizing principle of the Care enterprise? Is it organized around the institution/business? - or - The specific Individual Persons being cared for?

If people would evaluate Elder Care opportunities on this question alone, e.g. how are re$ource$ being allocated? how many residents per CNA, per nurse? Do they rotate? Or is it the same care team, or one as stable as possible, for the Resident's life time? What are the activities like? Passive? or Active? Outings? Daily schedules dictated by the institution and staff? Or by the individual resident? What is the extent of the relationship between the care enterprise and its community? What are the characteristics of that relationship? How deeply and personally involved is it or is the care home just a place to come and earn "brownie points"?

It IS obvious Our culture tolerates a definite lack of concern in the care of the Elderly. Even the Elder well-to-do suffer from the cogs and gears of the Medical Model, so, historically, the less well to do and the poor have definitely been exploited in these environments.

BY FAR most of the people who work in Elder Care are hard working, caring individuals. They are NOT ignoring the institutional shortcomings they see so often. They are expected to do much much MORE with less and less and less. . . . Families are un-educated about what's special about Elder Care and what's going on in general and they are understandably inclined to just park mom and/or dad and hope for the best. If they have complaints about Elder care, it may have to do with lack of involvement, their own or their community's, lack of real personal commitment to that effort. Perhaps the problem is similar to what Public Education experiences: people often just want their kids educated without fulfilling their own responsibilities for seeing that that happens in a way that actually really works.

Elder care enterprises ARE understaffed. Staff are WORKED TO THE MAX. They need more assistance, first of all from families, and then from volunteers from their communities, who should be involved, TRULY involved, in Elder Care for its own sake, not for some church, not for some college application, not for bragging rights with some other community organization. All levels of Elder Care, especially the "lowly" CNAs DESERVE much more respect than they get. Turn over amongst CNAs is so high as to make consistent care quite difficult.

Elder care staff and organizations are beginning to raise their heads above the intense demands of face-to-face care so that they can respond to their professional problems by changing how care is delivered. This is beginning to happen all over the country. Care environments are becoming smaller and more governed, not by the top of some "power pyramid", secular or religious or otherwise, but by the bottom, by the PEOPLE who live in them. More professional medical emphasis on wholistic care that does not depend solely upon the medical model, but is more preventative in nature is beginning to develop. I think this will continue and as more baby-boomers age and demand quality care, these characteristics will increase. Maybe it has to do with seeing up close and in detail the work that the care-staff does and their commitment to those in their care, but I feel optimistic about the future of Elder Care in our country.

[Hello_Kitty]

47. Wow, that is a really insightful and thorough response.

It should be an OP of its own. Thanks.

[patrice]

54. I'm getting old, so I have seen a lot.

[NC_Nurse]

45. I don't think you're an asshole. There are a lot more options and stages of

long term care now and sometimes they are the BEST thing for elderly parents - sometimes for medical reasons, sometimes for psychological reasons, and sometimes for your own sanity or health reasons. Broad generalizations about eldercare are bullshit. Every situation has it's own factors and the only people who know what's appropriate are those involved.

There are a lot of judgmental folks on DU, don't let them get you down. We are all doing the best we can with what we have/know at the present. :hug:

One of the first things we learn in nursing school is to leave your judgments at the door when you come to work. Sometimes it's hard, but it's the RIGHT thing to do. Respect for other's life choices and the differences in their culture (whether they are a majority or minority of the population) are essential to providing quality care.

[JoeyT]

48. It can be cruel to the elderly relative to not put them where they can get the care they need, too.

"How many people can intubate, catheterize, or put an IV in an 85 year old?"
In how many tries? I bet I could do it best two out of three! Four out of five, maybe?

In many cases it's actually dangerous not to have people in a nursing home. My grandmother was one such example. She wasn't put in a nursing home at all to begin with. The family was bound and determined to take care of her till the end of her days and all that. (Which I argued against, by the way, but I still took my turns.) Right up until she got up and wandered at night and no one knew she was up and she fell and broke a hip and some of her ribs. What were they gonna do, handcuff her to the bed? Then there's the time one of my idiot relatives decided to break a time release pain pill because she thought the pills too strong and almost killed her with that...

[Initech]

49. We had to do that with my grandma, one of the hardest things to do in one's life.

[Raine]

52. Exactly on point

My brother and myself took care of my father 24/7 for three years (he had dementia) but at his last hospital stay we were told that there was no way we could take him home and care for him. We had promised him and ourselves we would never have him anywhere but home. Reluctantly we searched out a nursing home and found a very nice place but the day before he was to be released from the hospital he died (this was a year and a half ago). You do what you can but no matter what you're only capable of so much and you do what you have to do. No one should be put down and made to feel guilty for a choice that you have no made because so often there is no other choice!

edit: typo

[Mari333]

53. I completely respect your right to do what is best for you

However, if I get to a point where I am incapable of taking care of myself, but can still function barely, I intend to do a Hunter S Thompson. There is no way Im going to end up having anyone feed me or change my diaper.

[Hello_Kitty]

63. It's funny but when I used to do LTC planning with couples

It was invariably the man who would talk about how he'd go in the back yard and off himself before he'd be in nursing care. I mean, I heard some variation of that with 95% the couples I met with. Yet the number of old men who blow their brains out rather than face nursing care and statistically very small.

[Mari333]

65. probably true, but I worked in some nursing homes

and some were okay, some were awful.
I also remember quality of life for some of the residents was worse than how I treat my dog.
so, I thought, if I reach that point, Im out of here.
I already told my kids that, they didnt like it, but they know, Im gone. Im not the least bit afraid of it, I look forward to it, especially if I am incapacitated and helpless. It wouldnt be worth being alive at that point.
but thats just me.

[tnlefty]

100. I've helped out and done that and more for 2 people

that I loved dearly who were dying at home. I've promised my mother that even if she goes into an assisted living facility she won't die there, because she wants to either be at home with family with her, or in my house with family with her.

I've told my spouse and my sons that if something happens to me and if they think they can't take care of me, to just put me in one of my flower beds...change the flower bed for a different view if need be, but I would prefer to expire in familiar surroundings.

I will try to respect anyone's end of life decisions and work with the in between with respect for their wishes as much as possible.

[Djinn]

160. a friend of mine said that earlier this year when he was dying of lung cancer

it's a hell of a lot easier to say than actually do as he found out

[Duende azul]

59. This post is misleading. "DU Public Enemy Number One"? Chill out, it's not all about you.

Come on, the thread you are referring to was a wonderful post against the condescending malthusian attitude that poor people shouldn't reproduce.

Somehow that got under your skin. You went on a very personal rampage against the poster of that OP.
I think I'm not the only one that still is scratching his head wondering why you found that necessary.
And the constant whining about how many approval that OP got didn't help much.

And again in this post you are misrepresenting what took place in the other thread. Your strawman of "outrageously cruel to guilt trip people into thinking they should spend decades of their own lives caring for aged relatives" had nothing to do what the other thread was about.
Seriously, do you think in these times "guilt tripping" to achieve that goal still works? So please don't make that up.
Your OP would have had it's merit if you had refrained from connecting to the other thread. No one is against "the decision to get their relatives the best care available for them while going on with their own lives." So what's your problem? And if you in your personal life try to make the best possible decision - kudos to you. This could have been a were good post.

What is difficult to stand when you and others in the other thread were outraged about personal decisions of poor people instead of being outraged about poverty.
Poverty and the hard times lots of folks are facing are even a common point in your OP and the other one. It's an undeniable fact that economic resources are conditioning your options to "to get their relatives the best care available". And that goes for the young and for the old. So why make up divisive crap?

Let me repeat: The scandal is not the mere existence of the poor, the scandal is poverty.

[Hello_Kitty]

60. Since this thread is about nursing care what say you about this?

Direct quotes:

It is only a sub section of the Anglo part of the population that throws their elderly into small run down apartments and lets them rot there. Or sends them off to the nursing home gulag.

But it is true that ethnic families, regardless of which they are or their circumstances, do everything they can to care for their elderly in their homes. They have a deep and abiding respect for their elderly that many anglos in this country have lost.

You okay with that? I'm not. I think I made it abundantly clear why that OP was triggering things in me. I find the notion of bringing children into the world to fulfill some material need YOU have, or possibly will have in the future, is repulsive. And it's not okay to do because you are poor. Children are not retirement plans, for anyone. Moreover, I find the way that some liberals romanticize the poverty of and ethnically stereotype various groups of people - "They have such a superior work ethic!" "They're so family oriented!" - to be revolting.

[patrice]

68. Children are NOT a retirement plan and Elder Care need not be prohibitively expensive to the poor.

I have been hearing stuff about the superiority of certain ethnic groups from several directions lately.

It confuses me about how people understand Racism.

Lots of potential dog-whistling going on.

[Hello_Kitty]

77. There's no dog-whistling about the comments I quoted.

It's flat out racism. Ethnic stereotypes are ALWAYS demeaning and destructive. Always. For example, they often cause otherwise intelligent progressives to romanticize the poverty experienced by certain groups and justify maintaining the systems that perpetuate it. I mean, do you HONESTLY believe that Mexican and Central American farm workers are out in the hot sun 12 hours a day for bullshit wages and horrible conditions because they have this innate "work ethic" that makes them yearn deeply to pick tomatoes for gringoes? As ridiculous as that sounds, it's exactly the way a lot of liberals approach the issue of immigration. Thus, their emphasis where immigration policy is concerned is on how to get more of those brown people with their innate work ethic and tolerance for bad working conditions into the country and not address the causes of their poverty and do something about those horrible working conditions. Similarly with LTC, if people tell themselves fables about how poor immigrants care for their elderly in their homes as long as possible for purely cultural reasons, it's going to be reflected in the policies they push for.

[patrice]

89. re dogs and whistles =/= you.

It's the only explanation I can come up with for how/why someone who you would think would be opposed to bigotry would tell you something like "such-and-such ethnic group ______________________". I have to admit there are cultural characteristics to which one can refer, but as a basis for policy? That's institutionalized Racism isn't it?

Doesn't make sense on the overt level, so I'm hypothesizing something more covert going on there, dog whistling, probably having to do with that horrid BIG buggboo

S - O - C - I - A - L - I - S - M ! ! Oh! the HORROR!!

[druidity33]

70. quoting things out of context

doesn't convince me of your argument. No one said any of the things you are purporting. It is misleading to try and rally people in your defense when you are clearly misrepresenting what other people have said. Unfortunately the other thread is now so long that i doubt anyone will really take the time to read the whole thing and see how ridiculous your "Enemy number One" assertion is.

[Hello_Kitty]

84. I realize I should have left out any reference to that OP because it's taking this thread off topic.

I really do want to talk about nursing care. But I'm not taking anything out of context. Those comments are direct quotes and they really pissed me off. They weren't flaming me for putting my mom in nursing home because I hadn't mentioned it yet, but they were making blanket statements about people who do that.

[Duende azul]

98. So what?

You were condescending in that thread before these points came up.
Several of your posts were merely dedicated to protest about how many recs the OP got.
Several.

And I don't have to share or defend every view that was presented there. So excuse me if I don't defend what you are quoting as proof you had to react the way you did. Again, you were devisive to a post written in an "we are all in this together" attitude. From there it went downhill.

Talk about stereotyping. "some liberals romanticize the poverty" hell there is nothing romantic about poverty. No one would defend that.
So why make that up?
There are cultural differences in how the elderly are cared for, that's a fact. A simple observation. You can try to construct accusation of racism from that but I would suggest you view it from another angle. How much miles you all had to drive to meet your extended family on thanksgiving? The US has a leading role in fragmentation of society. Everyone for her/himself. Nowhere has the destruction of traditional communities and social networks including families reached such depth as in america. And that's what's ultimately comes with capitalism.

What the poor don't need is some patronizing so called "progressive" who wants to inflict control on their family size.
Yeah, the poor are not entitled to their own decisions. They are not entitled to have their share of the national or global wealth. But they have to bear the reduction of "overpopulation". That leaves the door wide open to eugenics. Are you ok with that?
And knowing that poverty has a racial bias in america, perhaps the "progressive birthcontrol for the poor"-freaks should at least be careful throwing around accusations of racism.

[Hello_Kitty]

105. So plenty.

You so perfectly illustrate the unexamined racism and ignorance of some liberals that I'm talking about right here:

There are cultural differences in how the elderly are cared for, that's a fact. A simple observation. You can try to construct accusation of racism from that but I would suggest you view it from another angle. How much miles you all had to drive to meet your extended family on thanksgiving? The US has a leading role in fragmentation of society. Everyone for her/himself. Nowhere has the destruction of traditional communities and social networks including families reached such depth as in america. And that's what's ultimately comes with capitalism.

:rofl: Hilarious. You know what "traditional" means? It means "keep the women down and trap them in an endless cycle of unpaid drudgery". Because it's nearly ALWAYS the girls and women who are tasked doing what needs to be done to keep those family and social networks going. Fuck tradition. As imperfect as American culture is in many ways it has brought liberation to a lot of women from involuntary family servitude. In most "traditional" societies, women have very little freedom. You can keep that shit.

[Duende azul]

128. Wow. Are you intentionally misreading?

I just described a phenomenon. I didn't judge it.

Please don't attribute to me positions I haven't taken. (Where did I see that before?)

Emancipation from traditional oppressive circumstances doesn't mean you have to destroy all social cohesion. Only if you accept capitalism as the only way human relationships can be shaped. Then you are just replacing one repressive system with another, only this time around it's more anonymous. And I give you that, the possibility for individual escapes increases, but systemically never for all, perhaps only a few.

Capitalism advanced deeply in every aspect of our lives, sucking up all the resources. And the use of resources doesn't depend on our needs but on profitability.
Great part of what we are arguing about is a direct result of that process.
And if the solution should be the divisive ideas you and others spun on that famous other thread (punish the poor), count me out.
Everyone is entitled to live in dignity.

[Hello_Kitty]

132. Then come up with a system that doesn't oppress women

You were the one bemoaning the loss of "traditional family and social structures" while ignoring the fact that nearly all of them rely on female domestic slavery.

[Duende azul]

140. Again you are misquoting what I said.

I'm not bemoaning what you falsely attribute to me. Come up with a correct quote please.

And if you can't see how capitalism prolongs female slavery around the world I can't help you.
Oh I forgot, the poor are overpopulating, must be their own fault.

Still waiting for some comment to the eugenics angle of your stance.

[Hello_Kitty]

196. That is a disgusting accusation and you really should take it back

Do a search on my history and come up with single post where I have ever advocated eugenics or government coercion over reproduction in any way. You will not be able to find one. I'd like to see it be okay for anyone to choose not to be a parent and for all economic and social pressure to be taken off of women to procreate. And I want ALL groups of people to procreate less, regardless of race or socioeconomic status.

[patrice]

142. Everyone for her/himself: Cultural differences ARE speaking here, for example:

While I agree that some unbalanced persons take individualism:collectivity too far, culturally, there are differences in emphasis, for example:

I have an Hispanic acquaintance who loves to tell the story of her small mother who, at a family gathering, gently stepped next to my friend's large son, an average appearing middle-class young man who wore what used to be called a "rat-tail" but was not unusual in any other regard, put her arm across the young man's shoulders and at a propitious moment took the long rat-tail in hand and reached with a pair of scissors which she had behind her back in her other hand and cut the hair off, without saying a word. My friend has told the story several times and laughs and laughs about her son's angry and surprised reaction. I finally felt comfortable enough to tell her one day how horrified anyone in my family would have been at such behavior, because to us it demonstrates what we perceive as a fundamental lack of respect for the young man. My friend and I actually talked about it a little bit and my friend said things about respecting the group and the judgment implied by being different, while I said things about the fact that it was ONLY hair not some serious sin and the length of the hair doesn't matter as much as the individual's expression of his own identity. It appeared to me that the boy's grandmother valued conformity more than my German:Irish cultural group does. Believe me, we were brought up to have manners and to behave, but individuality was also admired, especially if it was carried off with real creativity, style and class. I can understand the grandmother's impulse, though, to "lay claim" to her grandson, perhaps if the culture had lead her to some other way to do that the boy's hair would have been left as he wished it. He probably grew up to know himself for the person he is anyway, without needing rat-tails, so it's a moot point. Perhaps it is the Irish in my heritage that disposes me to think that even though people get it wrong anyway, the problems of making autonomous moral decisions doesn't need any more harassment than that which is absolutely necessary. Perhaps from the perspective of my friend's culture, those moral decisions are not made by individuals, but by the group and its history together.

[druidity33]

62. thank you

I linked to the other thread because i thought people should know where this OP is coming from, but i couldn't have summarized my feelings about it as well as you just did. I tried to make the same points as you about poverty in the other post, but wasn't as concise.

cheers

[Hello_Kitty]

71. This OP is about nursing care

It was triggered, admittedly, but what I perceived as incredibly ignorant, insensitive, and frankly racist statements on the subject of nursing care on that OP. But that was not the first time people on DU have made stupid ill-informed remarks about how Americans should care for their aged relatives in their own homes like those wonderful Hard Working^TM people from X ethnic group do.

As for you and the person you're responding to, if you really hate poverty as much as you claim to, you should really stop romanticizing it.

[druidity33]

79. there is a difference

between being poor and living in abject poverty. You have a way of accusing people of saying and doing things they have not done. If you did not reference the other OPs i would not have brought it up. As for these stupid, ill-informed remarks you are referring to... actually quoting someone saying them in context and without bias would help the argument you are trying to make. Instead you seem to be more inclined to stoke the fires of disruption here on DU.


Rereading your reply... i ask, where did i claim to "hate poverty" and where did i "romanticize it"?


:shrug:

[Hello_Kitty]

96. Those comments are not out of context.

And there is no context where they'd ever not be ignorant racist fuckwittery.

Rereading your reply... i ask, where did i claim to "hate poverty" and where did i "romanticize it"?

I assumed both of you agree with certain premises. If I'm mistaken, I apologize.

[patrice]

73. Who is to assess the quality of family care? Those who are cared for?

Are they likely or even able to assess what's going on objectively, let alone in terms of professional standards? Would they speak "against" their children?

Don't get me wrong. If people want that, they should have it, but let us be honest about what it really is. If we have to be honest about the flaws of SNF/LTC, we should be honest about the flaws of Family Care.

Do you deny that for some families it could be a convenient way to avoid the struggle of solutions to difficult problems until the problem "solves itself", especially in states with limited Elder Care resources? Probably not you and yours or people you know, but you know that it is probably a statistical certainty that this is not uncommon. Out of ignorance, or confusion, or "accidentally on purpose", if the value of human life justifies what you advocate, then even one such Elder being "taken care of" neglectfully, accidentally or otherwise, negates any policy that prefers Family Care. It should be an option, but not a systemic preference.

[Duende azul]

115. I had no issue with the topic of this OP. Neither any preference for individual solutions.

I'm not advocating nothing as the ideal solution.
The problem was the other post the OP referred to and the way she did it. No one - at least I didn't see it - called her an asshole for caring for her mother the way she did.

Since upthread she said she'd better left that reference out and really wants to talk the care issue, I feel no need to contribute much more. Likely there is no one size fits all solution.
And since my involvement came from the poverty angle in the other thread:
Family care or nursery home - in both cases it depends on resources.
The possibilty of neglect in the case of family care clearly exits. In my view it may work if there is a bigger family around, the probability of the caregivers to be stressed beyond their capacity may be lower.
Something similar may apply to nursery homes. If the personnel is overworked and stressed out by working conditions the likelihood of neglect increases.

btw: I don't know how the system in the US works but judging from what I read about health care: Is everyone entitled to public care or is it primarily something you have to be able to afford because of a mainly for-profit system?
Is there any assistance for families who practice family care?

In the end it all comes down to how society wants to direct its resources.

[patrice]

130. There are state-level programs that Family Care can access - it varies from state to state.

Have not seen much like that from the federal level. You need to check your state's department on aging.

One of our experiences was that it was one such program in our state that broke my 90 year old, wheelchair bound mother's leg while transferring her. The leg healed but it is still quite crooked, which I suppose one would think doesn't matter since she is wheelchair bound, but my little sister does put her on her exercise machine daily (without breaking her leg) so I suppose a crooked leg gets exercised somewhat different, not as much perhaps, exercise as one that is in the same configuration as that in which she received it.

And one of my points below was that I think one of the problems with SNF/LTC is the lack of family & community involvement, or the wrong kind of involvement, of families and communities. There are Federal regulations (google OBRA) that govern what constitutes a Family Council and how the SNF/LTC is supposed to relate to it in order to get federal dollars. There are also OBRA provisions internal to the care enterprise that also govern its access to federal $$$ that specify what Quality Assurance committees, internal to the SNF's/LTC's own staffing and organizational structures, are supposed to be constituted and what their functions are.

I think oversimplified either-or characterizations of these resources are very very very mistaken.

[Duende azul]

139. Thank you for the answer.

I felt a little uncomfortable with the topic not knowing how things work in the US (don't live there).

You have a point in rejecting oversimplified either-or characterizations.

[patrice]

147. Welcome. You have a good point about individual and familial responsibility.

Sorry about the butt kickin' goin' on. I didn't go to that original thread, so I have no opinion about it.

I think families should band together to get the kind of care they need for their Elders and they should become integral parts of SNF/LTC.

[Bennyboy]

66. I am with you on this one...

My Mom just entered the last home before "the Home". I have been taking care of her, FOR NO MONEY, for two years or more.

ThAT IS ENOUGH. It is going to be a shame that she is going to one of the Gov't funded homes, but that is the path she chose to take. She knew my dad, in his lifelong effort to fuck me over, ended up fucking her over. And she let him do it. So no sympathy.

It is a shame, but what do you expect me to do?

[travelingtypist]

67. No, the assholery comes in when old folks have no visitors.

For months or years, but the kids show up the instant the aged relative is dead so they can go through her things and take what they want like the vultures they are.

[patrice]

69. Ding, ding, ding! . . . Or start a lawsuit of somekind.

[quakerboy]

117. That always sucks

The flip side of that coin is that you have to, at least a little bit, wonder where they learned that behavior pattern?

[travelingtypist]

119. Well, gee, it just must've been the parents they're neglecting.

Just like that tight skirt and the no panties makes rape okay.

:sarcasm:

[quakerboy]

121. Because that is in anyway comperable

Good job on taking us to the lowest uncommon denominator asap though.

[wickerwoman]

173. Apples and oranges.

"Phone in my childhood and I'll phone in your eldercare" is not especially admirable, but it is at least understandable. Why should a kid who put up with decades of abuse from an alcoholic, rageaholic, largely self-absorbed and indifferent parent be on the hook for not only paying for eldercare but visiting regularly as well, even when they don't have the financial or emotional resources to deal with it?

That's not at all the same thing as saying "She was asking for it".

Not all family situations are the same. Without knowing the intimate details and context of the relationships, you are in no position to judge people for how often they visit their elderly relatives.

[pitohui]

72. oh kitty hugs to you, and don't let the haters get you down

people have some unrealistic ideas in this world, i am physically tiny, even if i had the nursing knowledge and the financial ability to care for my relatives w. alzheimer's in my home, i do not have the simple physical ability to do such things as lift them and help them to the fucking toilet

maybe you saw the same thread i did, where some...individual...who prob. never had to deal w. the reality of an alzheimer's patient waxed romantic abt caring for the old at home

i'm still wondering how it could be, if caring for one's old at home by amateurs with no medical knowledge or nursing skills worked so great, why anyone in their right mind pays six figures a year to put older folks in nursing care...could it be that medical technology and round the clock care is both technical, difficult, and requires specialized expensive knowledge -- it ain't fucking amateur hour

there's a reason why nursing care is expensive-- IT'S FUCKING HARD, it requires a fucking staff, and the middle-aged daughter giving up her one and only life to provide in house care isn't going to provide quality of life for the patient in need of nursing care

sorry for my french, but i dare anyone to judge me (or you), i just fucking dare them...

and we all know from simple observation that these glorifications and romanticizations of multi-generational homes, in practice, mean that the middle-aged woman is expected to sacrifice her own life and have no freedom at all, ever, until she herself is too old enjoy it

[medeak]

74. am torn to call adult protective services

just spent two weeks with 93 yr old Dad and 80 yr old Mom.. Dad is emotionally abusive and has been for decades..constantly threating suicide. Have called adult protective services before on a pt of mine not as abusive and it had a sad outcome...immediately put into a substandard home and family not having any legal rights to change such. It's such a difficult time of life and feel so sad for every family member that I would NEVER judge. We have kept parents in their home as seemed more reasonable as Dad is blind and live at high altitude and Mother couldn't survive living with us. Thank you for this thread as was looking for support group on DU but there is none for this time of our lives... the "sandwich years" supporting kids in college and aging parents. Am supporting 4 households and feel so blessed I can. While so stressful to deal with aging issues still feel so blessed to have them still with me.

[patrice]

76. Oh my!

No words . . . but I do know a little about what you're going through . . .

:hug:

[tosh]

88. ...

:hug:

A Caregiver/Ageing Parents forum would be nice on DU.

[medeak]

92. www.care.com

friend told me about this site a few days ago and finding hope there.. social worker referred me to Russian agency which turned out to be similar to Russian mafia.

[lunatica]

81. No one who goes through this will criticize you, so tell the others

to fuck off. And thanks for starting this thread. It's been a source of very good information.

[treestar]

82. No such thing was ever said

I thought you just hated immigrants and people in other countries, but it appears you hate people generally.

If you are threatened by populations and migrations you'll be miserable forever. There's enough for you. Other people don't have to disappear for you to have enough.

People can have children and care for their elderly relatives, it's been done for millenia.

[Djinn]

164. just read the other thread and don't recall the OP

saying ANYTHING about hating immigrants or people in other countries, any chance you could you could tone down the assumptions and hyperbole a tad?

[gleaner]

85. No one can make that generic ....

assumption. It has to be taken on a case by case basis. My husband and I were able to take care of my Mom in her home after my Dad died. She had congestive heart failure and mobility problems and she was incontinent, but her mind was sharp and intact. She spent most of her time in a hospital bed. Bur she was terrified of convalescent hospitals. It was very difficult sometimes, but we were able to do it, and I am personally glad that I did. She liked being with us and my brother could come to see her whenever he wanted. She had her little cat who had slept on her bed for years and we were able to get help from home health care professionals which her Medicare paid for. We paid for the rest. But I don't think I could or would tell anyone else what to do in their own situation. They would know it best and would have to do what they thought was best.

On the other hand when my Mother In Law got cancer we offered to have her come into our home and care for her. She tried, but she needed pain medication, her bones were brittle because of chemo and she nearly fell several times. Our house was like a death trap for her because you can't get to the bathroom without going down steps in the hall which she had difficulty negotiating. Finally she told us she needed more help than we could give her. Her pain was getting worse and she was feeling constantly disoriented, another after effect of the chemo. She found a very good assisted living program which she could afford with her late husband's pension and her own, and she did well there until she fell and broke her ribs and made the decision to go into hospice. She received the medication she needed there to stop the pain she was in and stopped eating. She died in October. At her facility, though she had received medical and psychiatric assistance, she could summon help to move around from bell pulls in her apartment. It is just that the night she fell, she thought she could make it on her own. It was an agonizing situation, but she felt she had made the right choice and so did we. It had nothing to do with how much we loved her. We miss her terribly, like I miss my own Mom who had a stroke here at home, was taken to an acute hospital by ambulance and died there a few days later.

That is why arrangements should be made on an individual basis without anyone else's judgment or condemnation.

[patrice]

93. Agree about arrangements, with the addition that the process should be started WAY, WAY in

advance of the need and adapted accordingly at critical phases in the aging process and that includes VERY EARLY, INDIVIDUAL decisions about end of life care.

[gleaner]

176. I agree ...

Both my mother and mother in law had consulted attorneys and had completed Advanced Directives stating what their wishes were. I had discussed this with my mother many times and I was not unprepared for what happened. We phased it in after my father died of a heart attack. First we helped her out around the house while living elsewhere and gradually increased the amount of care we provided. We moved in with her when she kept falling and couldn't get around on her own. She was put on oxygen at that point and her exercise was limited to sitting in an armchair while she ate her meals. She liked her showers so we would take her into the bathroom and transfer her to a shower seat where I washed her and dried her and helped her into a clean nightgown. Then we trundled her back and put her to bed. As I said it wasn't easy, but I have rarely felt more bonded to anyone. She was completely dependent and I wanted it to be me who cared for her with the skilled help I got from the Nursing Agency.

My Mother in Law had been living up north about 400 miles from us and in addition to needing a greater level of care faster than she had anticipated, she would have been isolated from her friends and surroundings of 25 years. At this point my husband has recovered from a bout of MRSA which did enough damage to his body that he spends part of his day in a hospital bed and cannot travel, so we could not go to her. I guess for me it would have been a two person care giving situation and M in law took that into account when she made her decision to go back where she could have more immediate and skilled medical help as her cancer advanced. She put one of her local friends on her Advanced Directive to have someone who could come immediately. She planned meticulously how she would deal with her cancer, and that is how she did it. Fortunately her assisted living facility administered the palliative care she needed for her hospice 24/7 and she was able to die on her own terms with relatives and friends calling and coming until she couldn't manage the contact anymore. I think it took a lot of courage for her to call her own shots and decide when to end it. I also think it takes a lot of courage for people with cancer to live with the pain and fight to the end. That is why it must be their decision and theirs alone how and when to start refusing treatment and/or food.

I have been haunted only by the fact that the chemo drug they used on her cancer caused her to have a psychotic reaction as well as crashing her blood values. I know she did plan in advance, but there were still times when she was very confused. We were assured by her doctor that she was clear on what she wanted, but then it was a doctor who gave her a chemo drug that was dangerous for someone her age and for a cancer that did not respond to chemo, so there will always be a lingering what if in my mind.

[patrice]

198. Been there with Daddy. There are many, many, many pros & cons with chemo for the Elderly.

I have seen it up close and personal. There is good and BAD. I have seen it buy time and I have seen it TAKE time away. If it happens to me, I am seriously going to consider "alternative" medicine. I just hope there are real experts readily available to advise me about this.

[DRoseDARs]

86. Well, since you're a monster to those people you can tell them to fuck off with a clear conscience.

Do what you need to do and don't let their uninformed opinions bother you.

[Obamanaut]

90. My MIL, at age 93, lives in a nursing home. She uses a walker, but

still gets around.

Miz O goes to spend time with her nearly every day.

Last month, the facility took several residents to D.C.

They carry a van full to go shopping once a week. Volunteers from family members go on these visits, in their own vehicles, so that every resident has someone to assist them with their shopping if desired/required.

I bake cookies and brownies for their weekly 'tea party.' After my sister died in August, we donated her collection of tea sets to the facility to spruce up their parties.

It is a nice place, and MIL gets better care than she could get if she lived with any of her children - all of whom are in their 60s to 70s.

[patrice]

95. The Family Councils are extremely extremely important AND a powerful

link to the community at large.

[WolverineDG]

91. My cousin cared for my aunt in her home for years longer than she should have

because of attitudes like that from her 4 of her 5 siblings, who btw never helped her out financially or physically (except for the 1). They even objected to a home-care attendant, even when my cousin could not physically lift my aunt up when she fell down, or help her in & out of bed, up the stairs, in the shower, etc. Finally, the doctor said she needed long-term care, & my cousin looked for the best place they could afford. Even after that, she still visited every day, took my aunt shopping & out for meals, & called several times a day. None of her other siblings (except for the 1 mentioned above) did anything but complain about how "heartless" my cousin was for "locking up mom" in a nursing home. It didn't help matters much that a few months after she moved to long-term care, my aunt passed away. Now the unhelpful sibs say things like "Mom would still be here if...." crap.

I should also mention during this time, my cousin didn't have a life, even though she has kids & a husband...she couldn't work outside the home or go to school....that's how much care my aunt needed towards the end.

So, yeah, if you're physically, financially, & emotionally able to care for your elder relatives, more power to you. But stop it with the guilt trips for those who can't.

dg

[goclark]

97. Bless you

I care for my 91 yr.old Mom.
She has Alzheimers.
There is a book called " The 36 Hour Day" that addresses the amount of time that it feels like to care for someone that needs consistent supervision and lots of love and understanding.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

104. I'm sorry you lost your Mom at such a young age Kitty.

My own Ma is in her 80's and going downhill the past month fast. Today was one of 3 full days off for me in the last 5 mths. Dad has Cancer, spent alot of time running him to radiation appointments, he has a feeding tube. Well, just to say it takes alot of energy to deal with. It's been me and 2 sisters doing everything.

Ma can't really take care of herself, she can't be around a stove, frankly, is a danger to herself at this point. I know she would better off with 24/7 care, but my family needs more time to reach this conclusion. It's just frustrating to wait, Mom might hurt herself in the mean time. I feel worn out and am down to 111#.

In my home the bathroom is upstairs, unworkable for my Parents. Me move in with my Parents?, unworkable for my SO and son. And I want to be with my SO and Son. Does DU think I'm selfish for this point of view? Then Fuck You.

note, i think the DU majority supports me on this POV.

Thanks for the thread Hello Kitty, sorry it's past the rec time as I'd like to rec it. Much good information here for all of us.

[Honeycombe8]

108. You are wise, Grasshopper. They receive better care there, as long as there are

relatives to visit and ensure the "patient" is being cared for properly.

At a nursing home, the person (and they are not all elderly; they are of all ages, but are infirm) has round the clock care by people who have at least been given some sort of training, however weak that training.

It's a matter of degree of infirmity, I guess. If a person can still take care of personal needs (shower, bathroom, going to bed, dressing), that person may not need a nursing home (unless they insist on wandering around outside and getting lost...the mental aspect). But if a person can't go to the bathroom without assistance, they need the kind of care that a working family can't do very well.

[Le Taz Hot]

110. I'm going through EXACTLY this right now

with my beloved Great Uncle. I love him so dearly but, at 87, and diabetic, he's not doing well. My Great Aunt, his wife, is 88 and is also starting to decline. He went into the hospital recently where he was treated for a particular condition and while he was there, was weakened from being in bed so long. So we sent him to a nursing home TEMPORARILY. Unfortunately, he's hating it and refuses to eat or take his meds which means he's getting even weaker. I would LOVE to bring him home but he can't get up by himself, can't go to the restroom and can't bath himself. Neither my aunt, myself, or my husband are capable of doing these things for him so we're going to be faced with some AWFUL choices very soon. The good thing is there are 5 of us (cousins, spouses, etc.) going to visit him and he usually has 2-3 visitors every day.

I don't know who called you an asshole or who tried to guilt trip you but they CLEARLY don't know how difficult these decisions are and they ABSOLUTELY have nothing to do with ethnic background.

[EC]

111. I learned from my Mom

that when you are old and sick it is harder to make friends and have any social interactions when they are kept at home. She said life becomes really boring without friends...so she liked it in the nursing home.

[Fire1]

126. It absolutely depends on the person and their condition.

Such an environment should be considered on a case by case basis.

[Joe Chi Minh]

217. And unfortunately, not all children are as loving and grateful towards their

parents as the OP. For that matter, not all parents are angels. Few things are simple.

Because of the multiple stresses of daily life in the US for most citizens, it seems likely to be much harder in the US to cope with aged parents whose minds are too far gone, while managing to survive, yourselves. In any case, with Alzheimer's, there always comes a time when a secure ward in a hospital is the only recourse, in the UK.

But I think most of us admire and aspire to live as an extended family, ideally under the same roof, as many Latin peoples are said to, and as is, I believe, normal in hunter-gatherer societies.

[Horse with no Name]

112. After many years of taking care of all ages of people across the spectrum

there are truths that come to light.
Not EVERYONE had loving parents.
Not EVERYONE had parents who supported them through their life's decisions.
Not EVERY old person was a nice person when they were younger--some beat their spouses, their children, put their families at risk, were child molesters, etc. Just because someone is old does not make them a better person because they happened not to die when they were younger.
One truth that I did find was that just about all of those people who WERE good parents have people there to help ease their lives when it comes to the twilight years. Whether it is making accommodations for them at their homes or in alternate facilities--people generally do the best they can with the resources that they have.
It is not for me to judge any circumstance.

[quakerboy]

123. +1

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

175. I got a front row seat to that with my ex-girlfriend and her dying mother

The extent of her interest in her ailing mother began and ended at making sure she was really dead - she wanted to see the corpse, that is it. Her brother who made peace with their mother was always trying to get me to talk her into visiting. I never really understood it and her extreme callousness to her mother is one of the things that made me question our relationship. Only later as I came to know her family better and learned more about the woman for whom she had so much hatred did things start to make sense and it went from me thinking she was just terrible to her mother to thinking it is a wonder she didn't kill the bitch, which she acknowledged she obsessed about as a young teenager.

[Dappleganger]

204. Couldn't agree with this more.

I am sick and tired of people who constantly judge my sister and I for not bringing our father in to live with either one of our families. There is no way in hell that would ever, ever happen! He isn't fit to be around anyone who isn't a trained professional in mental and geriatric healthcare, period. He may only be 67 but he looks at least 20 years older and our families are young. I wouldn't dream of inflicting the same father on my own kids who nearly destroyed mine and my sister's.

We both love him but at a distance because he rejects every wise choice we make for him on his behalf. He is where he is today due to choices he made his entire life and now he must deal with that.

[wickerwoman]

214. Amen.

People who are filled with toxic anger their whole lives get worse in their elder years, not better.

Couple a hair-trigger temper with dementia or any number of diseases that cause altered perceptions and you have an unmanagable combination that should *never* ever be exposed to young children.

Good for you for having your priorities exactly where they should be (on the health and well-being of your little ones.)

[quakerboy]

120. My dad has insisted

that he go to a home, when the time is right. I didn't particularly enjoy living in his home, and we both feel safe guessing that the reverse would be true as well.

[donheld]

122. Don't listen to the ninnies

Sometimes it's the best thing you can do. Most of us are not equipted or skilled enough to care for that kind of people. My father spend the last 2 years of his life in a nursing home. It wasn't what anybody wanted to do, but nobody in the family had the ability to care for him the way he needed to be cared for. We do what we have to do.

[bertman]

124. Well said, Hello_Kitty. Been there. Done that. Hated it, but caring for my senile Mom

almost gave my sister a nervous breakdown. We tried to keep her at my house but it was driving me crazy and taking a toll on my ability to make a living. My wife didn't want to put her in a nursing home but we did anyway. She got progressively worse with the Alzheimers and finally her body gave out. We could not have kept her at home. No way.

Now my wife's Dad is living with us and dementia is coming on strong. She's trying to keep him here and is doing pretty well so far, but the day will come when he's too much to handle. Thank goodness there are places where he can be cared for and looked after even if they aren't as nice as we would like for them to be.

This is the DOWN side to having access to medical care that can keep us alive beyond when our bodies and minds have said "enough".

One aspect of healthcare reform that has been ignored is the end-of-life care at nursing facilities. It is very discouraging to see minimum-wage workers giving care to elderly and handicapped residents. Some of the abuses that I have seen would likely be prevented by hiring and training people who are motivated to do the right thing rather than just taking a job because it's all they can do. But that's another thread altogether.

Recommend.

[Hello_Kitty]

136. Another great point.

For people who claim to revere the elderly we sure don't demonstrate that in the way we treat the people who care for them.

[jennied]

125. I'm the caretaker of my mother right now....

I'm 27 years old and my mom is 64. I don't bath her or give her medicine. I mostly just cook, clean, grocery shopping and do laundry. This is a lot of work! I basically don't have much of a life, not because I'm not able to, but mostly because it seems that I have forgotten about myself. I know there's gonna come a time when my mom can't bath herself and when she can't give herself insulin shots. I honestly don't want to do that stuff when the time comes. I am not an asshole either, I would like a life and a family. Both of my brothers are married and have families. Since I am the youngest and the girl, and have little responsibility, then I am the one that takes care of mom. I don't complain about it. I get very little money doing it. I can't see myself NOT taking care of her. I would like to focus on my career and settle down though. And I feel like a nursing home or an elderly community would be best for my mother and I. I know that she doesn't want my life to stop because of her needs.

It's such a difficult situation. I've compared it to the responsibility of having a child. But it's much more than that - the emotional stress is there more. Seeing your mother sick and there's nothing you can do about it. It's overwhelming and no human being should be considered an asshole for feeling that it's too much.

[patrice]

144. !

:hug: :hug: :hug: ~~~

[Thickasabrick]

218. Bless your heart. I wish there was more access to home health

care where you could have someone come in and do the stuff that needs to be done by professionals and you could still have a life. I would really like to see elder care move more in this direction to be able to keep more elders in and independent home situation as long as is possible.

You are a wonderful daughter and your mother is extremely blessed to have you.

[Kajsa]

221. ---

:hug:

[salib]

129. You are so right

[mnhtnbb]

135. I had to move my 89 yo father from California to here in North Carolina in 2000

after my 91 yo mother died in a nursing home in California. He had post-operative dementia and
required 24 hour supervision.

It would have been impossible to care for him in my home. I have no guilt about finding the best
place for him and I visited him at least every other day. My husband visited him at least once a week.
My brother, who used to look in on my parents in California while living in Iowa, NEVER came once. Not once in over 18 months that our dad was living here. But, he's a Republican (and so were my parents) and was too busy managing the money and running around the country to conferences to ever coordinate a trip to stop by and see him.


Tell me again who should be guilty?

[cowcommander]

143. Having worked in a nursing home once, I will never, EVER subject my parents to that

No matter how nice it is(and that's only the case for the posh, expensive ones), it'll still be a miserable experience regardless. Ever had to deal with a nice old man begging you and offering to pay $100 to help him escape? Ever had to find a nice old lady wandering outside the nursing home slowly hobbling an escape home while the nurses were too busy to notice she got out? They HATE it there!

[Hello_Kitty]

145. And do you think no one ever gets bad care from their relatives?

Will you be able to insert a catheter or an IV in your parent if necessary? Do you have 24 hours a day to devote to intensive nursing care if it's necessary?

Has it occurred to you that a lot of the people who are miserable in nursing homes would probably be miserable anywhere?

[cowcommander]

151. Well, considering how I'm studying to be an LVN and maybe an RN after a few years...

I'll be able to handle it. My parents devoted so many years raising me and my two siblings, least we can do to repay them back is take care of them for the last years of their lives and make it as happy and comfortable as possible. The important thing is to plan ahead, I fully intend to dedicate as much time as possible for them when they get too old to take care of themselves.

[Hello_Kitty]

193. So everyone should train to become a nurse now?

Have you planned on how you'll support yourself while devoting full time to care for your parents?

[Dappleganger]

242. My mother tried to plan ahead, but plans be damned...

if bad fortune intervenes. You cannot POSSIBLY guarantee what will happen or not in the future, no matter how well-intentioned you may be. My own mother left her teaching profession of 26 years and returned to school to get her RN, with the intention of taking care of my father (with bi-polar and ALZ) in their later years. At 66 she had a massive stroke and was forced into rehab, then passed away nearly a year later from another stroke leaving my sister and I to figure out what to do with a father who cannot live on his own or live with his children because he is dangerous.

[patrice]

146. I wish you could come visit the home I work in and ask our Residents how they feel about it.

We have won a couple of statewide awards for the quality of our care and we are the low end of the market.

Everything depends upon the staff and how active families and the community are in the care.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

232. You are full of poo.

nt.

[MUAD_DIB]

148. I'm going through the same hell right now.

There are a lot of tough decisions that have to be made, but sometimes there is no other choice.

[patrice]

150. It's Damned Hard to see a Parent go down. Damned Hard!!

:grouphug:

[MUAD_DIB]

153. It is not how I want to remember my father. Thanks...

[patrice]

157. Believe me, I know and you're right, it isn't!

:hug:

[1awake]

152. I'd like some advise in this area actually..

My situation involves my grandmother. She is 92 and lives approx. 40 minutes away from me. She lives in an apartment by herself and refuses to move. I have considered trying to get her to move in with me though I am not sure I can handle the situation. I am a single father of three boys that works full time. Last year my grandmother fell and hurt herself requiring her to be placed in a skilled care facility. The doctor then advised me do to my current situation, her staying with me was not an option. She stayed in the facility for around 2 months then checked herself out returning to her apartment. She has a walker she sometimes refuses to use (hence the first fall) and will call me 2-3 times a day to tell me the same things because she can't remember. She has a car which imo she should not be driving because she is a hazard. She came to my brother's house on Thanksgiving and when it was over, she didnt remember that she drove there.

I am concerned for obvious reasons but don't really know what to do. My brother wants nothing to do with the situation, and her other older relatives give me grief no matter what I do (if I talk about moving her I'm overdoing it, but when something happens it's my fault somehow). Did I mention her driver's license was expired, and the MVI on her car is as well but neither of which have gotten her to stop driving ( we did hide the keys from her to which she threatened everyone several times a day for months).

Any advise would be appreciated.

[AlbertCat]

154. You can't make people take care of themselves.

I know you love your mother, but it's time to put the guilt on her not you. Just because she refuses to realize she is old and needs care, she has you worried and anxious, running over to see her several times and she is endangering others on the road. ( I hate how old folks seem to have no concern for their children's distress sometimes. I can't tell you how many of my friends have aunts and parents in their 90's living alone, who won't move from their house out in the boonies....making everybody for miles check in and take care of them as well as the children) It's time to take charge. You are not the "child" anymore. There may be yelling and screaming and she may even "hate" you for the rest of her life. But that is HER choice and not your problem. You MUST do what's best for her, you and the total strangers on the road to your house. Period. Stop feeling guilty and DO IT. I had to for both my parents and they hated my sister and I for about 6 months and then sorta got over it.... but folks are all different. Also my father was loaded and could afford good care in a small, neighborhood-like facility. My sister and I visited often (we both lived in different cities) and asked the staff lots of questions and were pain-in-the-ass nosy. Keeps the home on their toes. And my sister kept a close eye on what the home was giving them medication-wise.

But you are an adult and have responsibilities (your boys) and you must take charge of your mother too....whether she likes it or not. A lot of nursing homes are like hotels these days....a nurse just brings you room service. They're not the way they were when she was in the same pickle you are in.

But of course I don't know you or your mother or what the $$$$ situation is (a nurse could come to her apt if you can afford it)


It's easy to type this out.... but not to actually do. But you MUST.

[patrice]

156. All SNF/LTC have Social Workers who can advise you on the technicalities

of qualifying for their care. Talk to them. Get their materials. Do their tours and then come back un-announced (surprise!) and ask to be shown around again. Ask to talk to Residents' families, low level staff if it's possible.

If she's wealthy enough to afford privately financed care, that's one thing, though I know a family who could afford the cadillac home, but their medical needs were so high that most of their money was eaten up by that. Though all homes have to deliver a certain level of medical/professional care, price is not a gaurantee of quality beyond what is required by law - and that's a well known fact. The professionals I know prefer non-profit, because there are less restrictions on what they can do medically and even people who have come over from the well-healed corporate side say that.

If she isn't wealthy enough to afford private, she'll have to spend herself down to qualify for Medicare/Medicaid and I imagine spending her down is going to cause real problems in your family, so you really do need the advice of an LTC Social Work professional.

Here is the Center for Medicare Services' Nursing Home Compare database:
http://www.medicare.gov/NHCompare/Include/DataSection/Questions/SearchCriteriaNEW.asp?version=default&browser=IE|6|WinXP&language=English&defaultstatus=0&pagelist=Home&CookiesEnabledStatus=True

You can read about how individual homes do on state survey measures, but that is definitely NOT the whole story. The main piece in the quality of care seems to be how happy and stable the staff is and whether they feel they are allowed to do what they feel is their professional best.

I think there are online versions of the federal regulations that govern Medicare money in nursing homes, OBRA, it would be a good idea to read some of that (except for some medical terminology it's written in very user friendly language) in order to know some of the things you should be looking for as you shop nursing homes. As about Quality Assurance committees and processes. Ask about the activities of the Family Council. Compare to other nursing homes.

:hi: Good Luck! :hi:

[patrice]

159. LTC Social Workers can also work with you specifically to ease her difficulties

with the transition. You can develop an actual plan specifically for her needs in this regard. If not already aware of them, Staff can be informed about the principles of Person-Centered Care.

[patrice]

162. Oh, and ask about staffing schedules! and compare homes on that.

[SeattleGirl]

155. Damned right, Kitty!

In the last few years of her life, my mother was in a nursing home several times, when the level of care she needed exceeded what my siblings and I could provide for her, and my two sisters are certified nurse aides.

It is NOT caring to keep an elderly parent at home if you are not capable of giving them the kind of care they need.

When my mom WAS in the nursing home, there was not a day that went by that I, or my siblings, or my mother's numerous friends did not stop by to spend time with her. There were times when she was rather out of it, or sleeping, so we would just sit with her and hold her hand.

None of us wanted to put her there, but we also recognized that for the times she WAS there, it was because we were not capable of giving her the medical care she needed.

I'm so sorry you were flamed over this. The assholes are the ones that flamed you. You AREN'T.

:hug:

[Djinn]

158. I hope I never have to BUT

as you say it's really hard to provide certain types of care without qualifications, not to mention the ability to quit ones job to do it full time. Most of the people I know who are struggling with the decision now have to work to keep a roof over their heads and haven't got the ability to stay home to make sure their parent with advanced alzheimers doesn't set fire to the house or wander off into traffic. Or their parent has become really angry and aggressive as a result of dementia and they have young kids at home. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't decision. People judging from the outside don't know shit.

[BobTheSubgenius]

165. Both of my parents died in care.

Man, I took grief for not freeing my father from the predations of the "Lodge." It just wasn't possible; small house, single father of a child in elementary school and a job that had me travel for a few days at a time. With his medical issues, there was no way it could be done.

It was hard enough managing to get my healthy son looked after properly (there were no WORRIES on that score, he had great care, but it was a logistical problem sometimes, not to mention financial), let alone a 70 year old man felled by several strokes. He also had a heart condition, diabetes, a HUGE bleeding ulcer and, at one point, colon cancer.

That didn't stop a few people from telling him he should call a cab and just show up at my door. Meddling idiots.

[Cleita]

166. Hi, as a person who has talked to my family about putting me

into a nursing home I can agree with you. I live on the back property of my extended family in my own trailer. I take care of myself, pay my bills and give them rent. I think it's the right thing to do. However, I know the day is going to come that I can't do all of this for myself and I have told them that when the day comes that getting me help becomes hard, then it is time to put me into a facility.

You are not an asshole.

[AllTooEasy]

167. PUT ME IN A HOME

a good one...no, a great one

Honestly, you're just not safe unless you have trained professional people around 24x7. They have to make sure you take your meds, exercise, clean you (in all places), clean up after you, sometimes carry you, etc. I want the best around me and unless my kids grow up to be doctors and nurses, they need to let me go.

...but they better come visit!!! :-)

[cartach]

170. The assholes are

those who sit in judgement while not having the problem of trying to provide the best care for their elderly relatives. They're quick to criticize and have a holier than thou attitude.I ran into a few of them when we arranged for my mother to go into a nursing home. My mother took care of herself while living in an apartment until she had a stroke at the age of 89. There was no way that I or my two sisters could have given her proper care given our age and physical condition so we arranged to have her live in a nursing home. During the five years she had left she got full professional care and was in an enviroment where she had companionship and was kept as active as she could given her condition. There is no doubt in my mind that our decision was the right one both for her benefit and ours. Recently the wife of a friend of mine in his eighties was diagnosed with Alzheimers and also couldn't control her bodily functions. He was bound and determined to look after her at home. Needless to say after a short while he was all stressed out and his health started to deteriorate. Now his wife is in a nursing home and he goes there and spends time with her every day. In regard to "hard working immigrants" I would say simply that they come from countries where they don't have nursing homes except possibly for the rich, and once here and aware that they exist you can be sure they will take advantage of them to the benefit of everyone involved. When I was a kid in the early forties we had up to a half a dozen elderly relatives living with us,some of them pretty sick, and my parents had a real hard time coping with that while trying to raise a family. Somebody had to look after them because there was nowhere else for them to go until they were on their deathbeds, and then they'd be taken in by a hospital. As far as I'm concerned nursing homes reflect the higher standard of living that exists here and are not a reflection of indifference or ill treatment of the elderly but rather,the opposite.

[LibDemAlways]

172. Each situation is different, and no one has the right to

judge anybody else. My family went through hell this year over just this issue. Caring for an elderly person with multiple health issues is extremely difficult and I would never criticize anyone's choice of how to handle the situation.

[Road Scholar]

177. Well said. nt

[Chulanowa]

178. I work in a nursing care home

What I see is that some people are assholes... and others aren't. Just like real life. We have several residents who get nearly daily visits from family. There are others who have been here for years without even a hello on the holidays from their relatives.

However, we try to make up for that lack. I've been to bad nursing homes - ours isn't one of them, I'm happy to say.

Next time you see someone bitching about putting grandma into a nursing home... Ask them if they're willing to grind, strain, and thicken three meals and all drinks three times a day, seven days a week, every week of every month from now until hopefully a long time from now. Ask them if they're willing to lift grandma out of her wheelchair and onto the toilet - and given how wheelchair life tends to result in weight gain, this can be a task! Ask them if they're willing to bathe grandma, and of course give her special cleaning when she needs it. Ask them if they're taking their grandmother out on sunny days, and reading to her on rainy days, and always, always keeping an eye on where she is and what she's doing at all times. Ask them if they are planning to take training for emergencies - and there will be emergencies.

I guarantee you, none of these people will. They have it in their head that people put their relatives into nursing care because htey want to get rid of them. Some might. But 99% of the time... it's because these people fucking need professional care. I used to be one of these people who thought a home was a hellhole, and I know that I do not have the capacity to do the nursing aspect of work in this place.

[liberal N proud]

179. We had to put my mother in the nursing home in May

Dad could no longer care for her at home. She will most likely die there.

It is a terrible decision but one that has to be made.

[Wapsie B]

205. We will most likely have to put dad in a care facility if his health deteriorates much more.

There's only so much my mom can do. I've worked in nursing homes and the vast majority of staff I was with was highly professional and caring. If there was something amiss there it was most often at the management/corporate level, not where the actual care was given.

[sandyj999]

180. Unless You Have Lived This You Should Never Criticize

No one knows what this is like unless you have lived through it. There are sometimes too many old feelings of resentment that make a son or daughter unable to be a proper caregiver. Sometimes everyone involved is better served by professionals that are trained in this field and more objective. When my dad stayed with us it was a struggle, it was two generations clashing. He had always been controlling and in my early 40's I was no longer allowing him to do that. You know the saying, "my house my rules".

As his health declined and he became more difficult he moved into assisted living. That is where he needed to be because they were trained in the care of the elderly and I wasn't. It was the best for all of us concerned. So unless you have gone through this with happy results, don't criticize.

[Firstzar]

181. No argument here!

[niyad]

240. welcome to DU--home and sanctuary for many of us.

[Chemisse]

184. I would rather be dead than live in a nursing home

But that's just me.


Just adding, I would prefer to die than be cared for indefinitely by my children as well. If I were to develop Alzheimer's, I would be one of those who 'wander off and get lost' while I still could.

[pipi_k]

191. I understand how you feel

When my MIL realized her mind was going, she got so sad. The whole loss of dignity thing...the thought that she would become a burden on us and the rest of the family. She said she "didn't want to die kicking and screaming".

In the end, she didn't. She was home with us, and it was very gentle and very peaceful.

I would rather not be put into a nursing home too, but only because of the sadness I've felt going there to visit. Nursing homes...even the best of them...wrench at my heart. I can't even begin to explain to anyone what the pain is that I feel, or why...

And yet, there has to be someplace for the people who can't care for themselves to go...

Old age and illness are so very cruel. :(

[Chemisse]

230. That is wonderful that you allowed her to be home and have a 'good' death

I've often wondered why the money spent on nursing homes couldn't be used instead to provide in-home nursing care, so adult children would be able to keep their parents home without the huge burden of 24 hour care.

[GinaMaria]

185. you have my support 100%

and it is never too early to start planning for yourself. You don't have to leave these decisions to the last minute or up to a younger family member. Start saving, if you can, for your own care. Talk to nursing home or assisted living facilities near your kids or grandkids or in areas where you would like to live. Think of it as you would moving to a new neighborhood. What's available? Will your interests be supported? What's most important to you? Don't be afraid to look into other countries for care. Some are finding that care in Costa Rica or other places is much more affordable and the caregiver to resident ratio is lower.

It's time to abandon the notion that younger generations exist to take care of us as we age. This stuff is a heavy burden for our kids, grandkids and other family members. Take care of things now. Make these decisions yourself.

[WVRICK13]

186. I Agree

There are some times when even the best intentions are not good for the elderly. When they can receive better care and improved safety in a nursing facility then you as a loving relative should face the facts that you cannot do the job. I am fortunate because my parents, both near 90, live on their own with minimal care from me and my siblings. If their safety ever becomes an issue I will know I did the best I can and will put them in the hands of medical experts. With any luck they will die at home but who knows.

[southernyankeebelle]

189. Totally agree with you. Three years ago my mother-in-law who I cared for allot

lived right next door to us. She was having problems. My son moved into her house and she moved in to our house. I did everything for her plus help take care of a newborn. She wasn't happy and she wanted her own home. Finally my husband had enough (his mother) and in one day they moved her things back to her house and my son moved back to our house. The deal was she would come over everyday during the day and go home at night. You could see she was failing but we tried. It got to a point she wouldn't take a bath and she stunk because she didn't wipe her bottom. Finally I got some help. It was hard handling changing diapers on a newborn and a 89 yr old. It was taken a toll on me and my husband. Both my husband and I are in our 50s. A nursery would come over 2 a week and give her a bath and on the other days I gave a baths. Finally one morning when my husband got off work he stopped by to pick her up and found her on the floor. She broke a hip. She wouldn't or couldn't do the theraphy and she ended up in the nursing home. People who critize others aren't in that person's shoes. I wasn't able to handle her and my granddaughter. I decided when it was my time and I couldn't do for myself then put me in a nursing home. It is a hardship on a family when their is only one child to carry the burden. It is a burden. We carried it for a long time. Her husband had cancer for 10 yrs and he wasn't a problem. She was a difficult person in the end. She finally died a few months later. She was ready to go. She kept asking to go home and we told her we would take her home if she did her therapy and walk with a walker. She never did.

[get the red out]

190. Too easy to judge

My Grandmother needed the kind of care no one in our family was trained to provide prior to her death. I don't see how making sure she received that care could be considered heartless.

We loose sight of the fact that people live through much more than they used to. People debilitated in old age now would have been long dead years ago.

[raccoon]

192. ITA, and anyone who says/implies they are probably hasn't been faced with this--YET. rec'd nt

[Love Bug]

195. I agree with you, Kitty

I suspect those here who condemn others for putting their loved one in a nursing home have never been faced with that choice. Believe me, the hardest thing my siblings and I ever had to do was to place our mother in one because of Alzheimer's. But, it was as much for her safety as anything else because even if we had moved in with her, it would have been impossible to keep her locked in every night to prevent her from wandering.

What you said about immigrants was interesting and reminds me of a problem. According to the Alzheimer's Association, there is a real issue with some immigrant families making sure their loved ones afflicted with Alzheimer's get the care they need, including nursing home care, because in some cultures mental illnesses are considered shameful and those afflicted are hidden away, often to languish without proper medication or the stimulation of structured activities provided in a nursing home environment. So, maybe what some here consider loving care by Hard Working Immigrants might not be that at all but an avoidance of stigma.

Not all or even most nursing homes are rat-traps. What keeps a home from becoming one is the digilant attention from visiting family members.

[blueamy66]

197. I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but....

don't judge until you've experienced it yourself.

People have to work. I couldn't afford to not work to stay home 24/7 to care for my father.

My future BIL couldn't not work to stay home and take care of his father.

It's a heart wrenching decision, but sometimes a very necessary one.

My BIL visited every single day. I visited my Dad every other day.

This is from a daughter whose father "took off" in his car and was missing for over 24 hours. His pic was even on the news. He was found 60 miles south of his home, in his car, in a ditch. That was the worst 3 days of my entire life. Nothing like having to drive to a hospital in another town to pick up your Dad, who didn't even realize what he did. Nothing like having to buy a new outfit to drive him home in, because his clothese were too soiled to put back on him.

Fucking hell.

[Yes We Did]

199. What's with all the immigrant slams?

99% of the people on this board came from "immigrants", unless you're like me, a Native American. I don't care where you come from, if you can you take care of your own. And one other thing, you don't have to be unable to take care of your elders, just unwilling.

Now I don't know your situation, and I didn't read the comments that pissed you off, but for every person who wants to but can't take care of their elders, there is a person who just doesn't give a shit, and would rather dump them off in a nursing home, many of which are substandard, so they never have to deal with them again. THOSE are the people that piss others off.

[patrice]

203. Okay, so what shall be done with those whose "own" can't take care of them?

Children are NOT a Retirement Plan!!! - but - Let's just leave out the basic assumption implied in what you said that one generation owns another.

Just assume those who "can take care of your own" do (and there's a huge issue implied in that about the exact definition of "care") and then there ARE those who can't take care of their own or have none of "their own" to take care of them. What shall we do? Let them die in the streets? No? So they go into nursing homes, given that your preferred standard is "those who can take "care" of their own should do so", since they don't fit YOUR criteria for "care", what should those nursing homes be like?

[Yes We Did]

250. I didn't mean it like that, so don't misrepresent what I said.

I believe that if you can take care of your own family... you should. If you have the means you should do it. plain and simple.

If you want to make shit up and put words in my mouth... go ahead, but you're the one who looks like an ass for doing so; not me for not saying any of it.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

234. Second poster full of poo.

nt.

[Hello_Kitty]

236. Examples:

"And they cared for those parents in their homes, not through some nursing care set up.

It is only a sub section of the Anglo part of the population that throws their elderly into small run down apartments and lets them rot there. Or sends them off to the nursing home gulag."

"But it is true that ethnic families, regardless of which they are or their circumstances, do everything they can to care for their elderly in their homes. They have a deep and abiding respect for their elderly that many anglos in this country have lost."


I am not okay with those statements. It's offensive on many levels but not the least because ethnic stereotypes are ALWAYS demeaning and destructive. Always. Even when they are "positive". It's one thing to observe that people from a certain group are more likely to do something than another, but passing value judgments on it is what I find objectionable.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

237. This online back and forth is easy behind a keyboard. Time to change a adult diaper.....

might have a wait for comeback. Kitty, just tell them to go fuck themselves. Really.
It's DU, we can do this here.

God Bless you sweety.

[Yes We Did]

251. Yes... poor white people. Got their feelings hurt. please. n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

253. Um, great reading comprehension ya got there, sport.

:eyes:

[sinkingfeeling]

201. I didn't read the other thread, but anybody that doesn't realize the need for nursing home care,

has never experienced caring for someone who has lost the ability to keep themselves fed, bathed, or their home clean.

[onlyadream]

202. When I'm old and need care I only hope that I could be in a nursing home

My mom, an RN, worked in one and I volunteered in one (not the same one though). My experience was that nursing home were a place where the elderly could get quality care. As a volunteer, I transported the people to therapy, to get their hair done (at their own salon), to their meeting rooms where they could socialize, and to other functions (like when the girl scout troop would come and sing). I also played cards with them and listened to them tell me about their lives. I know there are very poorly run homes that get a lot of publicity (thus the negative attitutes), but there are good ones out there and there is nothing wrong with them (as long as you can afford it).

[joeybee12]

206. Happy to recommend...

Same with my mother...she needed 24-hour care, and my father at the time was 84...he was unable to do it, neither my sister or I could quit our jobs. People don't realize that 24-hour live-in care is not covered by medicare or any insurance...so unless you have oodles of money, home care isn't really an option.

[Kajsa]

209. Thank you, Hello Kitty.

You speak for me, also.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7110501&mesg_id=7115421

And I agree, our society does need to get away from the Pepsi generation,
uber focus on the 18-39 year olds.
In a few years, the older groups will be in the majority.

Keep up, Madison Avenue- WE are what's happening, now!

[Arugula Latte]

210. It's often expected that the women of the family should take on the care

even if it's the husband's mother, or something. And if they refuse, they're heartless and selfish.

[mstinamotorcity]

211. Nursing Homes

I think most people always here about the tragic stories of older loves who are left to rot in some of the bad institutions,and thats what scares them. But as a person who has had to take care of elderly relatives, please believe it is not a joke. Sometimes they do require twenty four hour constant supervision. The biggest problem is that we take it for granted that the care we place them under is well equipped to handle their needs. And we forget to monitor them as if we would any other medical facility. They should be checked out with the toughest scrutiny. When you find something you feel that is not to your satisfaction you should report it immediately. The best way to get the kind of care that you want is to investigate more than one place. Make sure you have a line on a couple of facilities. That way if one doesn't work out you may move your love one to another place. And rally family members to always drop by and check on your loved one. Let them know its not about how many minutes they spend with them its about making sure that the facility is constantly and continually meeting your expectations. And i personally don't ever want to be in the judgement seat on anyones decision to use an extended care facility or not. Most people know the kind of lifestyle they lead and if it allows them the time necessary to care for an inividual. If your decision was to place your mother in a place where she could receive good care, then you have done a good thing. Have no regrets. Until we walk in your shoes,we don't know why your corns hurt.:-)

[Alameda]

222. excellent answer......been spending a lot of time in nursing homes

lately. More than I ever wanted to spend. They are truly horror chambers. They are understaffed and underfunded..........so what do you expect to happen? I wish everyone would visit a nursing home with the mental state that they are the one in the bed. I have noticed the ones who get the best treatment are the ones with the best visitors....the ones who are polite and compliment the nurses and other workers.

A friend of mine was murdered in a nursing home recently. He was an Gay WWII Vet. He was incredibly noble person who I will miss a great deal. I wish his last days had been more dignified and pleasant. My elegant friend was reduced to rags. He looked like a homeless man. If you gave him anything it put him at risk from theft. He ended up in the home because he had a stroke and there was nobody to look after him, even though he had a companion who cared for him. He was a fall risk, so could not be left alone. He was just starting to walk when another patient in the facility he was in knocked him to the floor. He hit his head, sustained a pelvis and femur fracture. He went into a comma and never awoke.

I visited him from time to time, but I must say it was one of the most difficult things I've done in my life. The smell, the sounds...........I heard a woman screaming and screaming and realized I had become so hardened to the sounds I was blocking them out. I decided to see what was going on and discovered a woman who was in a broken bed. She was screaming for help to fix the bed.

I could go on and on about this issue......I've seen way too much as of late. If you need to put a loved one in a home, please take care to check on them once a day, and try to do it at different times a day.........and most of all.....be nice to the workers in the home......they have a very difficult job.

If you don't have anyone you know in a nursing home, visit anyway so you are aware of the issue.........sooner or later you may just end up there yourself.

[AngryOldDem]

213. Some things are just nobody's business.

You don't have to defend or explain to anyone your decision you made about your mother's care.

[madamesilverspurs]

215. We were blessed

with a grandmother-in-residence when I was growing up. Nana suffered a stroke during my senior year in high school (1965-66), and it left her with mental difficulties and began her physical deterioration. We converted the den into a hospital room, and Mom and I took turns with her care; sometimes I had to get permission to skip school when Mom needed to be there for the younger kids. Eventually Nana didn't recognize us, although she could carry on a conversation. It got to the point where getting her to the bathroom and back was more physically taxing than was safe; and the doctor wanted to start her on a course of meds whose dosing requirements and methods of delivery were well beyond our training. We made the decision, as a family, to place her in a facility where she could get the care she needed. And we made that decision in spite of some of the people at church who insisted that we were 'abandoning' Nana. As it happens, her physical condition improved somewhat in the hands of people who knew what the heck they were doing, although she never regained any memories. Forty-five years later my mother, now 90, still feels guilty thanks to the remarks from some very ignorant people.

---

[soarsboard2]

216. In Agreement

had to face same issues with mother in law with MS - we just could not deal with it ourselves.

[butterfly77]

220. Same age and sounds like the same situation ..

I had with my mom, but I made the decision by myself and I didn't think it was wrong. I Took care of her myself until I could no longer but she wasn't in there too long before she passed.

[greengestalt]

223. I disagree, and I've walked the walk

Helped my Grandfather live his last years in dignity and it didn't hurt my college or job.
Learned a lot that helped me much later from him, esp. as we are undergoing a recession/depression.


What is undergoing is the "Assault on the family" by the elite interests. Now, most on the left wince at "Assault on the Family" thinking of the right who use it as a buzz phrase to justify hate speech on those with, ahem, 'alternative' lifestyle choices. But there is an assault on the family done by rich elite corporate interests that has been going on for centuries now. More or less it's outlined in 1984. Remove the family, remove the lover, the state becomes the new family, the new love.


An old school family is a "Clan" where they all live in the same building or collection of buildings and everyone contributes to the collective pot, sharing good and hard times together. The old people are usually active and do what they can too, the hobby of 'whittling' got its start in old people using knives to cut kindling for fires.


The factory system doesn't like this. A collective family can support members during a long strike and periods of unemployment. A collective family wants not just money, but time from their members. A collective family will remember how much money someone working an 'outside job' sent them, so when he's "Burned and Turned" he can come home and rest for a long time and either look for another job later or re-join the family fully. And a collective family is a political unit that can work with others to use representative democracy to its fullest.


The controllers want every man an island alone, always fearful and on the edge of a cliff ready to lose everything if the powers that be (of man) will it. A scared, frustrated, constantly unfulfilled individual and even those they allow to become "Successful" will always be too fearful of losing everything to try to do anything out of line.


And, look at the families of the rich elite, especially the very long lasting fortunes. Overall, though they have a lot more space and more homes, yachts, etc. They tend to behave like the "Clan" system themselves. Young are nurtured, the family money is sheltered, very very venerable people still have a lot of respect and say. They just don't want "The masses" to do what they should and take away some of their wealth.


But you mentioned the issue of long term care and advanced age. Well, there's a solution to that. Too much medicine is wasted not to save or improve life, but by prolonging death. Instead of doing nothing but prolonging pain, one should accept a gradual decline and death, using medicine only for comfort and quality of life and as little as reasonable.


And, when/if they achieve total control, the elite will simply start "Euthanizing" people once they get too old or outright "Exterminating" undesirables, like those fired too often or unwilling to work for them.


BTW-That and Muhammed's forbiddance on Usury are the main reasons behind the pogrom to purge Islam and exterminate much of the Arab population. It's written in Islam to care for elderly, to not abandon them. That's not a primitive thing, its an advanced thing. But the controllers, the parasites do not want that.

[elleng]

224. You are right, of course.

One of the most significant issues is 'bathrooming.' Like to think about it or not, its a major issue in dealing with problems of the elderly. Naysayers should just think about it.

[pipi_k]

244. Oh, yes indeed...

That was about the worst part of it for us here. When my MIL was having mini strokes that were adding to her dementia, she started taking off her Depends at night and hiding them.

Mr Pip would bring her down in her nightgown and robe for breakfast, then I would go up and make her bed, get her clothing for the day and dress her in our bedroom, and she would spend the day in the living room. Well one morning he got her downstairs and into the bathroom to put her teeth in, and she "lost it" for a bit and peed in front of the bathroom sink, all over the carpet. We would then know she had taken off her Depends and hidden it someplace, and have to search for it. She often would forget to remove her teeth at night before bed, and once she lost them and accused us of "stealing" them. They were under her pillow.

But the worst of all was when she would get constipated because she wouldn't drink the water we gave her during the day, then have trouble having BMs. One time she got a huge ball of hardened poo (at least tangerine-sized) stuck in her rectum and buttcheeks that I had to manually remove...

Another time she was in the shower and tried to get out to walk, with wet feet, across the linoleum floor to use the toilet. I was horrified because she had already fallen a number of times, so I told her to just do whatever she had to do in the shower and I would clean it up. She had already left a turd on the bath mat, and yes, she did finish up in the shower, but I figured it was better than her falling again and breaking another bone or two (she had two broken hips).

I don't blame anyone for not wanting to deal with that. Not at all...

[elleng]

249. Thanks for explaining your difficulties, pipi, so other can understand.

[pipoman]

225. I work in a retirement community

with a lot of people living in 'Independent Living'. Most retirees are aware that when they are no longer able to assist themselves they will go into our sister nursing facility. The community residents volunteer at the nursing facility and are quite comfortable with the facility and the prospect of one day living there.

This is a couple who lived nearly 20 years in our retirement community. The day after I took this photo they moved into the nursing home where they are still enjoying each others company after 76 years of marriage.

[Peanutcat]

226. People who attack you for this issue are idiots . . .

. . . Who have never been in a situation like that. When my Grandmother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, we tried to keep her out of the nursing home as long as possible, until the night she attacked me because she forgot who I was and thought I had broken in and was robbing the place.

[DonCoquixote]

227. I know I lock horns with you a lot Kitty

But on this instance, I don't. Granted, just like with every stereotype, there are some that fit it, however, there are some people who simply do need 24 hour a day, trained professional care. There have been people in my family who simply were so sick that nursing home care was the only option, as we were simply not able to give them what they NEEDED, regardless of any good intentions.

MY only beef in your statement is that you had to do a jab at immigrants at the end (even though I know you meant it as a jab at other people). Simply put, when you deal with issues like Alzheimer's (a lovely family genetic legacy I may have to look forward to) or strokes, or some of the more exotic ones (like I also have in my family) it does not matter what ethnic group you come from.

[Hello_Kitty]

235. Thanks. And please don't misunderstand me re immigrants.

My remarks were a jab at the kind of ethnic stereotypes that Anglo liberals casually throw around about immigrants. I live in Phoenix and I hear some of the most shockingly racist and condescending things said about Latino immigrants from my fellow progressives. I'm also tired of the everything from other countries is good/everything American is bad dichotomy you see all the time here and on other liberal sites. Some things about our culture admittedly suck but every culture has its downside.

And you're absolutely right, when it comes to Alzheimers and other maladies of age, it really doesn't matter who you are or from what group.

[DonCoquixote]

241. Oh, I get it

Believe me, I do get tired of hearing people on both left and right speak for Hispanics, especially ones that have the (censored) to judge me just because I think Che and Chavez are over-rated. We will admittedly not see eye to eye on many things, but frankly, a world where everyone agreed with each other on everything would be a very boring place, and one where that sort of consensus was forced would lead us down the tubes..

[KamaAina]

228. We as a society lack the political will to support home- and community-based services

even though they've been shown to be cheaper than nursing home care, and even though the Rehnquist Court, in a rare moment of lucidity, found in Olmstead v. L.C. and E.W. that people with disabilities have a civil right to live in the community.

Here in Kolly-four-knee-ya, the Governator tried to slash our In-Home Supportive Services (IHSS) program by ninety percent. Fortunately, the Dem-controlled Assembly didn't let him get away with it.

No one in the disability rights movement thinks you should have to quit your job to care for a family member. Rather, we believe you should have access to skilled caregivers, preferably unionized.

[Kajsa]

233. +1

a Federal judge overruled his attempt to cut hours for IHSS workers, also.

Looks like Ahnuld scored a big 0 with his attempt to get rid of IHSS,
thankfully!

:)

[joshcryer]

239. Excellent post.

[Geek_Girl]

229. I agree I wish my dad would put his mom in a home

She has dementia and doesn't speak english. He's always traveling and leaving her with his maid. or drags her on vacations with him. She becomes very confused and I don't think he's provided the right kind of environment for an elderly person who needs to be constantly watched.

When he went away to his father's funeral, he left her with his wife who doesn't speak spanish. His mother basically took off down the road confused. Ended up at the local grocery store was trying to get people to cash her check so she can get back to puerto rico.

[pipi_k]

231. Same kind of stuff that happened with my mother's FIL

Her second husband's father couldn't speak much English either. He lived with mom and her husband for a long time. He started getting dementia more and more...

Quite a few times he would leave the house and set off a big search for him throughout the neighborhood.

One time when my mother was having one of those home Toy Parties thingies...a living room full of women...her FIL came downstairs dressed in nothing but shoes and socks and a white shirt that he had put his legs through and tied around his waist, leaving the front open, exposing his "stuff" to all these women.

I don't know how she took it as long as she did, quite honestly...

[JerseygirlCT]

238. I agree

And what's best for one family is not always what's best for another.

My mom keeps insisting that should the time come, we find a nursing home for her. I don't think this is just her usual selflessness (no snark there; it's true). I also think she feels her dignity would be better protected by having professionals provide her care.

At any rate, I don't think this is something that anyone can be judged on - and even less so on an internet board, where the people involved are basically strangers.

[Renew Deal]

243. I can understand why you'd be public enemy number 1.

I've observed that a lot of your posts on these subjects are about rationalizing some of your life choices.

[Hello_Kitty]

252. Which makes me different from the average DUer, how, exactly?

Most everyone here rationalizes their life choices at times.

[csziggy]

245. It is not just the elderly - my oldest sister had to go to a nursing home

When her brain cancer progressed to the point that she needed constant supervision. My second older sister objected - she thought the husband should have continued care at home. Oldest sister had made her decisions before she was impaired. She planned on nursing home care at the end. Her husband also had two children under ten to care for and trying to handle a patient who could no longer talk, was incontinent, unable to stand, dress, eat, drink, etc. was just not possible. And the husband was also concerned about the impact of watching their mother deteriorate on the boys.

It was a difficult choice, but it had to be done for everyone's sake. Her final choice was to have care removed at a specific point - another step that would have been difficult to handle at home.

Now I wish my father was willing to go into care. He is not very mobile and has fallen repeatedly. My mother had to call an ambulance after one of the falls, but Dad refused to stay at the hospital even overnight. Mom is older than Dad and although she was a nurse, at 88 she just cannot continue to care for him by herself. My second older sister lives close and checks on them regularly, but she cannot be there all the time. Soon, if Dad still refuses to go into a facility, I think we will have to arrange for someone to come in on a regular basis to help Mom take care of Dad.

I cannot take care of them - I live several hours away and I have my own health problems. Mom does not need two patients to deal with! In fact, I am getting to the age where I have to make decisions for my own care when I get older. We have no children so we will not have the option of expecting family to take care of us.

[dusmcj]

246. a lot of people here demonstrate via their own persons why we lose elections

busybodies and goodfornothings with too little to do and too much free time on their hands to conclude the various ways others (who are incorrect) are inferior to their 'progressive' excellence (which is correct). I note that they are largely identical to conservatives who also have weak psyches that they constantly need to prop up with mutual 'affirmation' to keep them 'firm'. (I.e. they're infected with the Connected meme.) I also note that this has the secondary effect of maintaining the delusion that they are not completely unimportant and instead sustains a (very ill-founded) sense of self-importance. (Which is again largely identical to the Connected phenomenon.)

[demodonkey]

254. Buyer Beware: Most Nursing Homes are money-driven HELL HOLES...

...My 49 year old autistic (Asperger's) brother went in to a nursing home for therapy for a broken shoulder and ended up dead due to 2 drug-resistant infections he contracted while there. And this was with my being there almost daily to check on him and advocate for his needs.

Most nursing homes are understaffed, poorly managed, and have so-called "professionals" (social workers, therapists, etc. even doctors) completely willing to lie to protect their miserable jobs and the facility's bottom line. That's been my experience. You have to fight like hell for every little thing, and watch every little thing like a hawk. But don't let them catch you advocating too much or too hard for your loved one, or you'll find that these "professionals" will bluntly tell you there are "no beds available" should you need to change facilities or get another loved one in somewhere.

I have dealt with no less than SIX nursing homes for various family members over the last 4 years, so I know of what I speak. Some have been a bit better than others, but overall they made my family members' (and MY) life pure HELL.

It is not always avoidable to have someone go to a nursing home, but I wouldn't send a sick raccoon to a nursing home if there was ANY way I could avoid it, let alone a beloved human family member.

No one is an "asshole" for putting someone in a nursing home. Sometimes that is the only resort, or the best resort given circumstances. BUT -- if you ever have to have a loved one go into a nursing home, just remember BUYER BEWARE. Never EVER trust that ANYONE on the staff at ANY nursing home is on your side or is really, truly your loved one's friend. Absent a miracle employees will put their employer and job ahead of your family member, even if it means lying or dying are involved.

[TicketyBoo]

255. Nobody knows another's circumstances.

My father was in the throes of Alzheimer's disease, and he became fixated on the notion that my husband was trying to poison him. At that point, there was no way of caring for him in our home.

[Midlodemocrat]

256. Nice spin, but that's not what happened.

You posted a vicious screed against Lyric's OP regarding the poor and their desire to have children.

Your posts were unrelenting and cruel and you know this. They were deleted, but enough people saw them and know I'm telling the truth.

Your desire to remain childless is no one's business but your own, but your attacks on people who choose not to be childless are immature and self-serving.

This OP is designed to convince everyone that you are a caring individual who had no other choice, but in reality, you are defending your decision not to have children because you believe that everyone who does only has them to provide elder care.

Disingenous. At best.