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NYC teachers...start praying now to get good students who test well.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 11:52 PM
Original message
NYC teachers...start praying now to get good students who test well.
Because effectively immediately Michael Bloomberg is declaring that students' test scores will be used to grade your effectiveness. He will effective at once tie your tenure to those scores. Doesn't matter what the union says or does...most of them have caved already.

This is union busting, plain and simple. It is being done by Democrats.

Bloomberg is in control of your schools, and what he says...goes.

Bloomberg says teacher tenure will at once be tied to test scores

While in Washington D.C. yesterday, Mayor Bloomberg said the city will start to use students' test scores when evaluating teacher tenure. The NY Times called the proposal one "that has been bitterly opposed by the teachers’ union and criticized as putting too much weight on standardized exams."

Bloomberg, who was appearing alongside U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan, pointed out, "You can evaluate teachers on any criteria you want, just not on student achievement data. That's like saying to hospitals: 'You can evaluate heart surgeons on any criteria you want - just not patient survival rates!'"


The Mayor also said the State Legislature should permit teacher layoffs based on performance, “The only thing worse than having to lay off teachers would be laying off great teachers instead of failing teachers. With a transparent new evaluation system, principals would have the ability to make layoffs based on merit — but only if the State Legislature gives us the authority to do it.” However, Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver told the Times he wasn't touching that hot potato, "These are all contractual issues that should be dealt with at the bargaining table."


Wow. He and Arne just completely changed the way NYC schools operate...almost overnight. They do have the power to do that.

Please don't tell me that good and experienced teachers will not be fired. Don't insult my intelligence. Some of the best teachers take on OR or given the most difficult classes. Their students won't reach those high scores. It won't be bad teachers who go. It will more likely be teachers at the high end of the pay scale...you know I am right.

It will likely be teachers who have the most challenging classes, teachers who work the hardest.

Here's a little bit more on the topic...including some teachers' views. Oh by the way those "reserve" teachers they mention were most likely teachers laid off from schools that closed because their students did not score well on tests that do not stick to what is on the curriculum. They are often good, experienced teachers who just were not teaching at the "right" schools, the "good" schools....

Teachers interviewed on Wednesday about the plan were universal in their condemnation. “It’s ridiculous,” said Kanayo Al-Broderick, a third-grade teacher at Public School 56 in Clinton Hill, Brooklyn, who is in her 22nd year of teaching. “It just means they did well on this test. Does it show we’ve built them to be lifelong readers, to love reading? That’s what all teachers want.”

Education officials said they had no details on just how scores would be used for tenure decisions. Many teachers have no scores to go by: Only children in grades three through eight take the annual English and math state standardized tests, and high school students take Regents exams only in certain subjects.

The mayor also called on legislators to make it easier to fire bad teachers and teachers whose jobs have been cut but who are guaranteed their salaries even if they cannot find a new job in the system. The city is now paying more than $100 million for these so-called reserve teachers, many of whom lost their positions because their schools were closed for poor performance. Mr. Bloomberg said that the state should place a one-year limit of teachers in the reserve pool, something he could also press for in the contract.

Bloomberg ties tenure to test scores


Those "reserve" teachers in effect have already been stripped of tenure, and now if Bloomberg gets his way on this.....there will be none at all unless it is tied to those everloving test scores that are so dear to Arne's heart.

By using the test as the ultimate teacher grader, these so-called leaders are selling out the students. Kids are not little robots that fit well into a test made by private companies that have no oversight. Tests that no one sees until it is administered. Tests that are scored without anyone being privy to the secrets of the scoring. There have many errors in Florida test scoring, but it took a legal effort to find out about it. Only brave parents took it on, most could not afford to do so.

I feel for the teachers in NYC. They will have differing views on this testing and merit pay and union busting according to where they teach.

Merit pay from two points of view

One of these schools

One teacher was in a school in a deprived neighborhood. The principal was not a very good one. The county knew that, but they put their less capable administrators in the schools whose parents would not be too critical. The parents cared deeply about their children and wanted a good education for their children.

But these parents lacked the money and community standing to be demanding of a principal. No one listened to them that much except the devoted teachers. Many did not speak good English, some spoke almost none. In the fancier schools there were people to help translate and aid communication. The poorer school had little access to specialists.

This school had much of the supply money shifted from it to a charter school, or a magnet school, or a school of choice. This school had old worn out text books. Yet when the students did not "produce" in the charter, magnet, choice schools.....they were sent back to the deprived school.


I taught at that school.

My class was so busy with just getting by in life, coping with so many other things...that there was little teachable time left. It was not their brains or capabilities....it was the utter despair some felt.


My neighbor's school was quite different.

My neighbor in contrast had the children of people who had the finances to provide what was needed. Children of doctors and professors who knew better than to send their kids to a school like ours.
They had access to home computers, tutors, anything they needed. The teacher only had to ask, and specialists appeared magically.

Needless to say my class that year did not score well on the state or national testing. It was not their abilities, it was not my teaching skills. It was trying to teach with constant disruptions, no help, and parents who were usually not willing to help at home. I did all the right things to teach them, but too many things got in the way.

My neighbor's class aced the FCAT and national tests.

Under the merit system Duncan and Obama are proposing, she would get a raise....and I would not have.

I taught human beings with hearts and souls and good minds, but life got in the way. I worked twice as hard as my neighbor, but it did not matter that year.


Despite the poverty in our school, most years we scored decently. We scored well enough to get by in spite of it all.

Yet, my class that year I mentioned above simply could not have done it. It was not them or me, it was just the way it was.

What if that year had been the year that our area decided that the students' test scores decided if I went or stayed?

Bloomberg and Arne just took over those schools, and they are undermining what the unions have done for years.

They are undermining good teachers, and they are harming students. You can not base your education goals on just one test. It is ludicrous, but it is mostly just sad.




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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bloomberg is a rich bonehead. He's there because of his money
There's nothing else to be said.
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Libertas1776 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. Another great outrage
committed by the dictator that is Bloomberg. And don't expect any help from most of the NYC Dem politicians, they're usually as corrupt as he is.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. He has in effect hijacked the school system.
with Arne by his side.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. Let Me Be Blunt
Any politician who supports this shit doesn't need the votes of teachers, ANY politician.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
17. They seem to be supporting it.
At least no one is speaking against it.

Worries me.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
4. Using standardized testing to evaluate teachers is a disaster
Teachers will not want to teach in poor districts. Fearing their job security and loss of yearly raises, they will flee to the affluent suburbs where test scores are higher.

And teachers will end up having to teach to the test.
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Teaching to the test is common. I'm a substitute in a suburban
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 12:14 AM by LibDemAlways
Southern Calif. district. One day recently I was assigned to an 8th grade science class. The students were taking a standardized test to determine how they were doing so far, so that the teacher would know what needs to be re-emphasized prior to offical standardized testing in May. It's all about the test scores.

My daughter is a high school junior in the same district and has never had a class in which she was required to do any critical thinking or formulate an original thought. She's an expert in regurgitating facts and filling in boxes. It's all that the system requires.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. It's not deep integral learning that becomes part of a student's mind
and enriches their lives.

That has been gone a while now. The almighty test is the only thing that matters.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
29. She's an expert in regurgitating facts and filling in boxes. It's all that the system requires.
It's all that the system *wants*..

Truly educated people ask difficult questions of their leaders.

What leader wants that?

Much better that the sheeple believe what they are told without question.
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malletgirl02 Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
5. Question
Doesn't New York have schools for really smart kids? Also what about teachers who teach honers and AP kids? Some teachers already have an advantage just by teaching advance subjects. How do thy intend to balance the unfairness towards teachers who teach at regular schools, or teach regular classes?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. They don't intend to balance it.
Bloomberg is already letting charter schools take over the buildings of public schools and move them to basements
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malletgirl02 Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. Link
I read your post that is horrible they are kicking those kids out. Where are the kids going to go? I also read your post about the public school kids getting only limited access to a library that their parents help volunteered to help remodel. What makes it worst the parents by helping to remodel the library is they did exactly what public school critics said they should do, take initiative and get involve in their kid's education. These the same people who kicked the public. Public school critics pull off that crap and still have the nerve to say public schools are inadequate.
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shellgame26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
66. I read that in the NYTimes today
..sickening. And the prevailing myth is that Charter schools perform better. THEY DON'T
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. New York City has specialized public schools
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 03:37 PM by alcibiades_mystery
Most famous are the specialized public high schools, like Bronx Science, Stuyvesant, Brooklyn Technical, and Townsend Harris (a humanities specialized school), but there are also specialized units within regular zoned schools (as at Midwood). There are also "test-in" middle schools that are usually conduits to the specialized high schools. These schools are often some of the best performing schools in the country. Of course, many of them, though public, also get alumni donations that supplement their Board of Ed budgets. That's a dirty little secret of the New York City public schools. Many schools have thriving community and alumni donation pools that pay for music and art programs and the like, while schools that exist solely on the Board of Ed budgets get, as we used to say in Queens, oogatz. Needless to say, this split between heavy donation schools and no donation schools can be mapped directly on to the relative wealth of their student populations, so even at the funding level, poor children get the shaft, and the system reproduces itself again and again.
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FarLeftFist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
7. I have a fascist fucking mayor
Who spent $170 per vote on an illegal 3rd term.
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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
8. This hands children a lot of political power
In the most bizarre and oblique way possible. Is this what we are intending? If so, why not just give kids the vote?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. Yes, it does give students power.
They hold the fate of teachers in their test scores. I once had two who had a pact not to take the test. They were both smart kids, and they were making a statement of some kind. Mom, principal, aide, me...none of us could convince them. They just sat there protesting the test.

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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
10. i am thankful every day that we chose not to have kids.
this place just keeps getting more and more fucked up, and nobody with any responsibility wants to admit it.
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I'm glad I'm old now and not young now.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. i wouldn't mind being just a little younger...
the second half of this century is going to be very...exciting?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Maybe not that much younger...
:evilgrin:

Just a little though.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
12. You can't evaluate heart surgeons on any lone criteria you desire; especially patient survival rates
And Bloomberg should know better than any: you can't evaluate teachers on any lone criteria you desire; especially student achievement data. That may sound reasonable to a guy that circumvented democratic process just to keep his swanky job, or someone standing there with a voucher in hand. But it is not fair

The surgeon has to sometimes not merely repair the debilitating lifestyle choices a patient may bring to the OR, but work miracles to make them *rise* again

In a sense, the teacher is not all that different with kids in Bloomberg's town that have to stop, drop and roll their way under metal detectors then back to homes where students may find little support base that encourages academic achievement. That's not the teacher's fault, and they shouldn't be clipped for Bloomberg's inability to bring more jobs and foster nurturing hearths & homes in NYC other than his own

The surgeon is likewise not able to be clipped for his recovering patient 3-4 weeks down the road that feels he feels so good he thinks he'll try that Cialis again cause maybe he did it wrong last time maybe wash it down with Patron this time, naw...

That's some looney stuff
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Good post.
You can not evaluate any profession on just one thing... especially when they are involved with human beings who make decisions that might not be wise.

You just can't do that when human factors are involved.

But he is doing it, and this administration is standing with him. And Democratic leaders are mostly ignoring it.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
14. Bloomberg making many "agressive moves" with Joe Klein...
to overturn the state's present law about tying teacher scores to students' testing. He is really taking over the schools with Arne standing by his side.

Bloomberg Announces New Round of Aggressive School Reforms

While participating in a panel discussion about the future of education reform sponsored by the liberal think tank the Center for American Progress, Bloomberg announced that he and his school Chancellor Joel Klein are aiming to push through a platform of new reform proposals that include:

* Overhauling teacher evaluation systems to include student performance data.
* Boosting salaries for high-performing teachers in hard-to-staff specialties (math, science, special education) in low-income schools.
* Ignoring seniority (and prioritizing merit) when making layoff decisions.
* Making it easier to get low-performing teachers out of the classroom and off the payroll.
* Raising the bar on how much content students should master each year.
* Removing the current cap on the number of charter schools that can operate in New York, and providing more funding for their facilities. Bloomberg said he wants to open another 100 charters in the next four years.
* Closing the lowest-performing 10 percent of city schools in the next four years, and replacing them with more effective leaders and teachers. Bloomberg said he was determined to find the money to fix more schools by changing the current union rules that require New York to keep displaced teachers on the payroll indefinitely, even if no principal wants to hire them (the so-called rubber-room problem). “We just can’t keep wasting that kind of money,” Bloomberg said, noting that Chicago has a one-year limit for displaced teachers that could serve as model legislation.


No democrats are speaking out on this issue. The media is not covering the corporate takeover of schools. No one seems especially alarmed.

Arne worked hard to get Bloomberg in charge of those schools.

Now he is standing beside him as he takes them over.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
22. When did it happen that there is little outrage about union busting...
at DU? Did it happen gradually over the years? Maybe it is not lack of outrage so much as just not caring about it?

Maybe the education changes were supposed to be done while we argued about health care and Afghanistan? And didn't notice?

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I think the continuous
propaganda has been too successful. It feels like the Reagan era.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Yes, you are right. The propaganda worked so well against public schools.
And there are few left to defend them.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. Yes.
It's appalling, when you look at the changes in attitude that have marched forward since the Reagan era.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
45. Not only public schools
ANY organized labor... you just get to see it with the public schools since that is your area of interest.

Started doing some readying on the history of labor... AH Google books, I love them... and it is not just unions at the schools. It is ANY union.

Starting with the 1880s, doing as much of a historiographical review as I can...
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teacher gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. agreed n/t
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. The problem is the unions are becoming completely ineffective in dealing
with the problem; more often than not the leaders are in cahoots with the administration.

Teachers' unions need to represent the interests of TEACHERS and quit acting like a very expensive social club.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Well, it's a good thing then there won't be any soon.
:shrug:
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. Unfortunately, they are about worthless now. Case in point: D.C. schools
n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Yep, get rid of public schools and unions.
Come on now, that is going the wrong direction.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. I know it is. I am just stating reality
They have been co-opted.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #37
48. Teacher unions are a different argument.
Even if you have disdain for teachers and their unions, this system is guaranteed to make the problem worse. With the system that Arne and newt want, it won't make any difference whether a teacher is good or bad. You will end up with students who can't think, can't write, and won't know how to tell the difference between Shakespeare and American Idol. The system they want is a fool proof way to produce a nation of fools.
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mamaleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
28. Ridiculous idea. That forces teachers to teach only for the test.
It essentially ties them to spending all year teaching for an exam as opposed to covering more.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. It almost guarantees dumbing down of students.
It covers only what the test makers want covered.

Who is watching the test makers...the test scorers. Who is watching the text book companies.

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
32. What about the Art teacher or the Gym teacher or the counselor?
How will they be evaluated?
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. There aren't any of them anymore n/t
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
38. From NY Teachers.net chatboard
Re: mayor bloomberg
Posted by: Does Bloom realize... on 11/28/09
1) The different dynamics of student populations from year to year make it
impossible to show improvement every single June, and that there's only so
many times you can go up before you go down and start over?

2) That as mayor of the largest city in the country and being that his
lackey Mr. Klein is chancellor of over half the students in NY state, he
holds the power to put a knife to the neck of those who write all NYS
issued standardized tests, and many of us are completely aware that he did
just that when they issued some of the easiest Regents exams in recent
history this past June--in an election year--to pad statistics and show
that he (somehow) was personally responsible for student improvement in
city schools? Furthermore, since those statistics were grossly exaggerated
by the administration of high school level tests that could be passed by a
majority of 4th graders in nearly any other school system, this year is
poised for an almost certain epic tail-off, regardless of how much time and
effort and professional development teachers put in.

3) The amount of cheating that will be taking place in many lower
performing schools to ensure that the maximum number of students possible
"pass" their standardized tests?

4) That his plan to undermine the union and usurp the written law of the
land will turn NYC schools into an increasingly corrupt operation on par
with mafia racketeering, pitting teacher against teacher, principal against
principal, principal against teacher and leave the kids at the bottom of
the pile left to scratch and claw their way out.
____

NYC, D.C. first, then the rest of the country. Where are the unions, besides cutting deals with these crooks or being ineffective to deal with them?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Thanks for sharing that...teachers are catching on.
Finally.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
39. Two words for anyone who thinks test scores make a good performance indicator: 'bell curve'
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Yep. And the CRTs are no better indicator
The problem with testing kids is just that: the kids. A whole bunch of factors figure into their testing performance, and it has nothing to do with the teachers.

Most important is the fact kids don't take the tests seriously. They want to get them over with. There is not one thing a teacher can do about that.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
41. Then teachers need far more leeway in terms of discipline and other matters.
And principals with principles.

The system is not myopic in that the teachers are the only facet to the problem.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. +1,000
In this day and age, finding a principal with principles is like winning the Powerball jackpot. It is becoming a rarity.

It used to be principals were master teachers who only went into administration in their final years of their careers before retiring. Not anymore. Many of the new ones are barely out of college, and do not have the maturity or even the smarts to take on such a daunting job--not to mention the sense to restrain themselves from the abuse of power that is so easily had by school principals.

There is no job equivalent in the private sector or even in regular government employment because principals aren't closely supervised as a rule.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #41
59. Discipline? In NYC? AS IF the kids don't intimidate the staff!
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
44. In their situation, I would simply teach the test. If that's what mayor fucko wants, give him it.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
46. Arne Duncan stood next to Bloomberg during the announcement.
"Mr. Duncan, who sat just feet away from the mayor but remained silent on most of his proposals, said that he supported the idea of tying student data to teacher evaluations but he stopped short of endorsing the administration’s plan."

Really Arne, you remained silent as Bloomberg sold out the unions and teachers?



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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
47. Charter schools cherry pick students who make good grades.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
49. Okay. So can I write a test to measure public office holders?
Boy would we have a turn over.
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deadmessengers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
50. So how do you propose measuring teachers, then?
I don't disagree that measuring teachers' performance based on their students' standardized test scores is a bad thing. So, in your opinion as an educator, what would be a good way of measuring performance?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Teachers are constantly assessed by many means.
Always have been. Yearly written assessments, taking into consideration parent notes and complaints. Semi-annual assessments often also. Monthly observations by administrative personnel while the teacher is teaching.

I could go on.

Few assess the ones doing the assessing.

You can not determine a good teacher by just one man-made test, made in secret by a private company...a test no one is ever allowed to see until it is administered.

A test that can be scored in secret. Parents must hire a lawyer if they question the validity of their child's test scores.

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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
51. I teach a course to take a test.
Edited on Mon Nov-30-09 11:31 AM by Turbineguy
We have all the questions that can be asked. Just over 14,000. Obviously, you cannot "teach the test" under such circumstances. Therefore underlying knowledge becomes a major factor. To complicate things there are 5 professional rankings included in the test questions. The basic rank grade obviously has simpler questions. Since the weekly sample quizzes I give encompass all questions, I give a handicap in scoring of as much as 25% to those looking for a lower professional rating. Since those looking for a top rank have lower rank questions included, I use a negative handicap for them. 70% is passing (it's a pass or fail test, the scores only serve to predict the chances passing or failing). Therefore for some, a 50% score is a good pass and for others an 85% score is a barely passing grade.

As far as grading teachers goes, would it not be better to look for an improvement in scores rather than strictly a score number? Also a system could devised to handicap schools with historically consistently lower scores to compensate.

Politicians are looking for a simple and foolproof way of grading teachers. It's not an unreasonable wish. Maybe it's the Teachers who need to invent that method for grading.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. For weeks the teachers here "teach to the test".
All else goes out the window.

The kids are stressed, the teachers stressed, the parents stressed and angry all the time about who knows what.

I am glad I retired, but yes they teach to the test whether it is feasible or not.

As to other methods of assessment, talk to Arne and Obama...they are in charge now.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
53. Incentive to cheat.
Edited on Mon Nov-30-09 12:05 PM by rucky
Incentive to cherry-pick your students.
Incentive to teach to the test.

Incentives really do work!
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xxqqqzme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
55. It appears, tragically,
that the bath tub drowning is on course.

My son, 33, publically educated at very blue collar neighborhood schools, married a girl, 10 years younger. She cannot spell, has trouble pronouncing unfamilar words so it is no surprise she reads poorly. She is a curious person, quick to pick up nuance and asks questions. She too has a public education but from a school system w/i a more affluent communty. I don't know what happened in those intervening 10 years. But she was cheated. I see more and more young people around her age w/ the same spelling/reading problems. Is this the trend nationwide?

Their their first child is due in the next 10 days. As much as I wish it were the opposite, I am not hopeful for my grandchild's future.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
56. So, I ask:
If you don't propose testing students to some metric as a measure of teacher effectiveness, what metric do you propose?

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. You certainly don't get what I am saying.
They want to make that the only way. Now that is not even common sense.

Bloomberg and Arne are very simplistic in thinking that giving a teacher tenure should depend on one test.

It's nutty and it's crazy.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. That's fine.
What other measurable metrics would you use?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Teachers are ALREADY assessed, all the time, thoroughly
You are falling for spin that teachers are not held accountable. The problem is that tenure at schools and universities is something that corporations don't like and must break. In a field where those in the classroom are so vulnerable to whims of 30 to 40 kids and their parents...vulnerable to administrators who won't stand up for them against an irritable parent who is not getting their way.....if there is not tenure or some job security, why bother to be a teacher??

Teachers are evaluated thoroughly and often, by just about all their "superiors".

It really angers me to see politicians talking about holding teachers "accountable."

Good heavens, through the years we were held accountable for every word, every action, every restroom break (how dare we go too often).

It is outrageous to think teachers are not evaluated. There is just no need for all this "merit pay" stuff. It is meant to start conducting schools like a business.

Ok, fine. Run the county offices on a business model, run the district and school offices in a business-like way.

But hire good teachers and let them teach. Provide a good curriculum, but please don't give them a script to read....if you hire good teachers they are also good communicators.

My principals were constantly keeping an eye on us. They heard from parents, they heard from the students, from other professionals who worked with us.

We had regular visits by the principal to our classroom, unannounced. Then we would meet for a summation and critique. This was often. Then we had the yearly evaluations in our permanent files.

In addition, we often worked with counselors from the school and from the county. We had to fill out forms for doctors, and if they were not well done principals heard about that as well.

We would often meet to "staff" children into special programs. The staffing would consist of at least one guidance counselor, a staffing specialist from the county who conducted the meeting, usually the principal or vice principal, and the parents at the 2nd meeting and sometimes the first as well.

We were judged by all of those people on how we conducted ourselves, how we spoke of the children's progress and needs. It was a critical bunch overall, and it was most certainly considered an evaluation tool.

In Florida we had to renew our certificates every 5 years by extended in-service hours or two college courses. In between there were trainings and faculty planning sessions as well.

There have been yearly standardized tests forever. The scores were kept on record and used as an evaluation tool. I remember years ago my students were scoring nearly off the charts at two schools where I taught. I don't know if they still use stanines, but the highest was 9. I had students regularly averaging 8 and 7 and sometimes 9 at just ordinary schools. Principals and others noticed.

It was called merit evaluation. It has been around for decades.

There is more to the push for "merit pay" than meets the eye. This whole thing in my mind is a way to need more testing materials from more companies that provide them. And the more people fail the more "materials" and "supplies" they need.

I know the DLC's main goal for years has been charter schools. Ok, I have seen good charter schools. HOWEVER, they are a school that uses public money in conjunction with the business community. It is an easy first step to turning the schools over to businesses and getting our government "out" of the "business."

You know, the "bathtub" theory...just drown the government in one. No more public schools, more profit for businesses who are getting their feet in the door. More profit for testing companies and suppliers of materials....it's the start of privatizing our once great school system which has been talked down about and tested to death.

I spent the day in the classroom with human beings, not little test taking machines. Teachers and students I talk to here now are getting angry at the constant testing, the teaching of only what is going to be on the test because there is no time for other things. The students overall know they are not getting a good rounded education. Art and music are being done away with in many cases to have more time to train for the "tests."

I think legislatures and congress need to quit trying to run the schools. Let those trained in education policies and theories do it. Hire good teachers, pay them well, let them teach.


I gave myself permission to post all of it.

Education is doomed because the corporations figured it out while personable lovable Ronnie was running. Their propaganda worked well, and now just a few voices on line can not save public education.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. But it's subjective assessment.
All of the assessments you listed sound subjective to me, and are based on what your boss thinks about you.

What people want is a measurable, objective metric to measure teacher performance with. Being evaluated by your boss is great, but how can I compare your performance to someone who doesn't work for your boss?

The easiest way to test the effectiveness of the educational process is to test the knowledge of the students.

We can debate what should be on the test until the cows come home, but the bottom line is that there should be, and there are, tests which are given to measure a specific set of skills, and students either have them or they don't.

This is the ultimate metric.

I don't think it's very useful to hold teachers accountable to student performance, however, because teachers are powerless to motivate unmotivated students. Only parents can do that, and if the parents are unplugged from the educational process, it doesn't matter what the teacher does.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. If you think one test can do all that....then I have swampland to sell you.
And I say I will no longer try to convince you that children are people not robots.

Reagan already won...nothing else I can say matters.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #64
69. And therin is the problem.
Once again, we come to the same answer that I have had in these discussions countless times before.

"Test? Oh, sorry, there is no test that can do the trick."

Children may be people and not robots. But this does not mean that there is not nor can not be some metric that we all agree constitutes a bare minimum of educational knowledge.

But the debate never comes down to what should be on the test. The debate always ends by the teacher throwing up his hands and refusing any kind of metric at all.

Which tells me one thing:

They are afraid of students being measured.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. You don't judge children on just one test. It is unconscionable.
There will be no debate as to what is on the test. It is done by companies who allow no scrutiny.

If you think a child can be judged on one test, then you sadly have little understanding of them.

I hate the way DU insults teachers.

It has become a place at which teachers and public schools are undermined daily.

It's a shame.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #70
76. On one test.
Colleges have been basing admissions based on one test for decades. I imagine they have some understanding of them.

It is not insulting a teacher to require some kind of objective metric for judging his or her performance, nor does it undermine public schools to require some kind of objective metric for judging their performance.



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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #76
88. Then why have grades? Waste of time to give grades on report cards.
Right? Only one test decides. To hell with grades.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #62
74. You can't DO it because public schools are political institutions first and foremost
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 12:40 AM by tonysam
They aren't businesses, and running schools on business models will fail. Teachers' jobs are to help students. This cannot be measured and certainly not objectively given the bent of principals, who have total power over teachers.
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shellgame26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #56
67. I don't think you understand what's going on in the public schools
NO more art. Just do test prep.
NO more science. Just do test prep.
No more drama, theatre. Just do test prep.
No more music. Just do test prep.

NO more anything that might encourage abstract thought and critical thinking skills. JUST DO TEST PREP!!!

Standardized tests are actually a recent phenomenon in public education. Before, the teacher was the one that evaluated student performance based on a number of criteria, not just one's ability to choose a, b, c, d.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #67
72. What's wrong with test prep????
Look, if the tests represent the knowledge that we feel needs to be demonstrated, what's wrong with preparing for those tests?!?!?

If it is decided that we need to test if students can do basic arithmetic, what's wrong with preparing them for those tests by teaching them to do basic arithmetic? If it is decided that we need to test reading comprehension, what's wrong with preparing them for those tests by teaching them how demonstrate that they have comprehended what they read?

If you are not happy with the tests, that is another matter. But most of the anti-testing folks I hear are simply against testing at all. I can only conclude they are afraid of what the tests show.

Incidentally, I just picked one of our local high schools out of the air and checked their web site, and in fact, yes, they have teachers for art, choir, band, science, and drama.



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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. Uh, no. Teachers aren't against assessments; they assess all the time.
It's just that standardized testing is bullshit because there are ALWAYS "winners" and "losers" since they function on the "bell curve" system.

CRTs aren't any better.

The problem is with the kids. They don't take the tests seriously. Teachers also have NO control over that and other factors which affect performance such as family life, transience, etc.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #73
78. Hah!
It's just that standardized testing is bullshit because there are ALWAYS "winners" and "losers" since they function on the "bell curve" system.

It's not the test that functions on a bell curve, it is intelligence that functions on a bell curve. Thus it is no surprise that tests would reflect that. In fact, any test that did not follow such a distribution would immediately be suspect.

What you want to measure is the performance of the mean students. If 95% of the students (those in the middle of the curve) in class A perform worse than 95% of the students in class B, then it is logical to start asking about what is causing the difference.
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shellgame26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #72
75. I think you need to consider
the total time alloted during the school day. It's not like they're telling teachers to prep for just 1 period, it is a whole day business meant to simulate actual test conditions. Unless you are advocating replacing actual instruction with test prep, at what point do you suggest teachers actually start teaching? And once again. Standardized testing is not the only nor the most accurate way to measure actual student progress. It is simply a crude labelling device to determine who are the winners (the wealthier school districts) and who are the losers (the poorer inner city schools). The real reasons why students underperform are never addressed and there is no real desire to address them. It goes to the heart of the true aim of capitalism, to create a permanent underclass. It's also a convenient way to bust the unions.

And just because a school may post on its website that there is drama and art etc DOESN'T ACTUALLY MEAN THEY'RE DOING IT. A daily class program may include science for 1 period but it is a well-known practise of administrators to tell teachers to use that time for prep. There are a lot of smoke and mirrors.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #75
79. So again...
I think you need to consider the total time alloted during the school day. It's not like they're telling teachers to prep for just 1 period, it is a whole day business meant to simulate actual test conditions. Unless you are advocating replacing actual instruction with test prep, at what point do you suggest teachers actually start teaching?

As long as the necessary knowledge to pass the test is being imparted to the children, they are teaching.

And once again. Standardized testing is not the only nor the most accurate way to measure actual student progress.

So what measurable metric would you suggest as a replacement?

It is simply a crude labelling device to determine who are the winners (the wealthier school districts) and who are the losers (the poorer inner city schools). The real reasons why students underperform are never addressed and there is no real desire to address them. It goes to the heart of the true aim of capitalism, to create a permanent underclass. It's also a convenient way to bust the unions.

There is no doubt that kids from poorer places will probably do worse than kids from wealthier places. Mostly I suspect this is due to parental involvement and expectation, which I believe is the most critical attribute for academic success, weighing far more heavily than the quality of a teacher. I have no doubt that wealthier parents are more involved with their child's academic endeavors, set higher expectations for academic achievement, and by their own station in life set a higher role model expectation than do poorer parents.

This does not negate the need for testing to highlight these discrepancies so that steps can be taken to address them.

I'm not convinced that there is some conspiracy to create a permanent underclass.



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shellgame26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. and again
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 11:00 PM by shellgame26
"As long as the necessary knowledge to pass the test is being imparted to the children, they are teaching."
This is a vague statement. Considering teaching methods necessary to impart real instruction such as
1) the use of manipulatives
2) multi-media instructional tools, p.p, smartboard etc
3) interactive activities
These methods are far more effective than doing test prep for hours and yes, teachers are being prevented from using these methods in favor of test prep. If you are like me and believe that creativity is the key to real learning then you would understand that forcing kids to do hours of mutilple choice prep with questions they don't understand and have not been effectively taught how to understand (see above list) will not help them.

"So what measurable metric would you suggest as a replacement?"
An in-school evaluation process in which the students are assessed by the individuals who are in contact with them everyday, who know their strengths and weaknesses, who understand that WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS NOT WHETHER A STUDENT PASSES OR FAILS BUT RATHER HOW MUCH HE/SHE HAS PROGRESSED, is far less alienating than a statewide standardized test that has been proven to be riddled with cultural biases.

Another factor I did not even touch upon is the support network for the child outside of school. I taught special ed for 5 years in NYC. In every one of my classes there were several students who were in the "care" of a foster parent. Although I met at least one foster parent who was awesome, I also had several students who had been shuffled through the system and at least 1 who had been raped along the way. If you do not think home-life affects student performance then I really don't know what to tell you.

Here's a challenge for you. Quit your current job and become a teacher in an inner-city school then come back and tell me how it goes. This is not meant to be a snark. Everyone from my graduate school class thought they knew it all before they actually set foot into the classroom.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #80
84. Then change the test.
Edited on Wed Dec-02-09 11:02 AM by gorfle
If you are like me and believe that creativity is the key to real learning then you would understand that forcing kids to do hours of mutilple choice prep with questions they don't understand and have not been effectively taught how to understand (see above list) will not help them.

If you want tests that measure creativity, then push for such tests. Right now our testing regimen is designed to test knowledge, not creativity. I have no problems changing what metric is measured, so long as we have a metric to measure.

An in-school evaluation process in which the students are assessed by the individuals who are in contact with them everyday, who know their strengths and weaknesses, who understand that WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS NOT WHETHER A STUDENT PASSES OR FAILS BUT RATHER HOW MUCH HE/SHE HAS PROGRESSED, is far less alienating than a statewide standardized test that has been proven to be riddled with cultural biases.

To my mind, how much a student has progressed does not matter if they still can't meet the required metric. In other words if you've made great progress but still can't do basic arithmetic the process has still failed.

I also am not interested in subjective assessments by random individuals as this does not provide a repeatable, objective metric that can be applied universally.

And here comes the "cultural biases in tests" canard again. If the tests are bad, fix the tests. I tend to believe that our tests have been designed to test knowledge that we have decided is necessary and valuable to our society as a whole. If your "culture" doesn't jive with that I'm sorry but you'll need to get on board with the broader interests of society or else you won't have the knowledge that is necessary and valuable to our society as a whole, and you will pay a price for that later in life.

Here's a challenge for you. Quit your current job and become a teacher in an inner-city school then come back and tell me how it goes. This is not meant to be a snark.

This is not a practical suggestion. First of all, there's no way I'm going to take such a massive pay cut simply to have the experience of teaching. Second of all, one does not have to be a teacher to understand that we must have an objective way of measuring the "educational absorption" of the students our educational system is producing. A scientist does not have to be a tree to study trees or make informed opinions about them.

Now we can argue precisely what it is the students are to have absorbed until the cows come home. You want to measure creativity? Fine. You want to measure arithmetic skills? Fine. You want to measure literary skills? Fine. You want to make a test with minimal cultural biases? Fine.

But whatever we decide the metric is going to be, we need to objectively measure it to see if the students are actually achieving it.






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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Why are there few famous Brazilian physicists?

Decades ago they were using the same physics books in high school that Americans used in college. And got similar scores on the standardized tests.

But while there are numerous famous American physicists, there are very few Brazilians of note.

Richard Feynmann made this discovery after being invited to Brazil to review their system. At first he thrilled his hosts by pointing out the fact about the books and test scores. But then he shocked everybody by making up a new test. The American college scores were comparable to their standardized test scores. The Brazilian scores were terrible.

When you make a teacher's job dependant on passing a test, the teacher is going to teach the students to pass the test. Without that dependancy in the United States, our teachers have spent the past two hundred years teaching their students to learn. That is one of the reasons the United States has become such a dominant country.


And NCLB is going to destroy that.


Maybe you never thought about it along these lines before. But in doing your best to ensure that somewhere in the United States some medicore teacher doesn't get paid more than you would like to see them paid, you have been overlooking the fact that you are destroying America's future.

So which is more important to you? The future of the United States and the future of our children? Of making certain someone you think undeserving doesn't get paid too well?


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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #86
90. On Brazilian scientists and false dichotomies.
Decades ago they were using the same physics books in high school that Americans used in college. And got similar scores on the standardized tests.

But while there are numerous famous American physicists, there are very few Brazilians of note.

Richard Feynmann made this discovery after being invited to Brazil to review their system. At first he thrilled his hosts by pointing out the fact about the books and test scores. But then he shocked everybody by making up a new test. The American college scores were comparable to their standardized test scores. The Brazilian scores were terrible.


I'm not sure what to make of this. You say that the Brazilians used "the same physics books in high school", and you say that they "got similar scores on the standardized tests". Then you say, "The American college scores were comparable to their standardized test scores. The Brazilian scores were terrible". So which is it? Did the Brazilians have similar standardized test scores compared to the Americans or not?

When you make a teacher's job dependant on passing a test, the teacher is going to teach the students to pass the test. Without that dependancy in the United States, our teachers have spent the past two hundred years teaching their students to learn. That is one of the reasons the United States has become such a dominant country.


And NCLB is going to destroy that.


So make a test that tests learning ability. I have no problem with changing the metrics that we use to judge student performance, so long as we have metrics to judge student performance.

So which is more important to you? The future of the United States and the future of our children? Of making certain someone you think undeserving doesn't get paid too well?

Aside from the fact that I am usually instantly on guard against arguments that appeal "it's for the children!", this is a false dichotomy.

Surely we can protect the future of the United States and the future of our children while weeding out bad teachers and rewarding good ones?

And besides, like I have said before, I don't think student tests necessarily reflect on teachers, and so student performance should not be the sole criteria used to judge them.

But I still believe it is essential to test students in an objective manner against some metric so that we can judge the effectiveness of the educational process.

Many teachers, I think, are against any kind of testing because they are afraid it will be used to assess them. So in spite of how helpful it might be in judging and improving the educational process, they are against it. How's that for looking out "for the children"?
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #90
93. Brazilian vs American

Brazilian high schoolers scored the same as American college students on the standardized tests. But when Feynmann made up a new test that would force them to apply what they were supposed to have learned, the Brazilians scored terribly while the Americans had pretty much the same results they had on the standardized tests.

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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. Having googled this.
Having Googled Feynmann's anecdotal experience with Brazilian students, I can say that obviously rote memorization is not learning how to apply the facts that have been memorized.

But standardized tests can easily deal with these kinds of problems.

To be sure, a standardized history test that asks, "Columbus discovered America in: A) 1492 B) 1622, C) 1392)" is a simple exercise in memorizing historical facts.

But standardized mathematical or physics or biology problems are certainly not so simple, at least not the ones I have taken.

They will read like so: "A ball weighing 10 pounds is dropped from 400 feet above the ground. How long until it hits the ground? a) 2 seconds b) 5 seconds c) 6 seconds"

Memorization will not help you here, other than having memorized the basic formulas for falling objects and knowing which one to apply. You need to also realize that the weight of the ball is a distraction because the weight of the ball is irrelevant to the answer of the problem, which is b) 5 seconds.

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shellgame26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. maybe you misunderstood
Edited on Wed Dec-02-09 11:12 PM by shellgame26
I never said anything about testing creativity. I said that real learning comes from evoking the creative processes in the mind. I'm sorry if I was not more clear. And if you truly thought your simple changes which teachers must some how "push" for (as if they've never pushed for any changes) would be effective then YES. YOU NEED TO ACTUALLY BE A TEACHER SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED. I may be able to make informed opinions about trees but I cannot claim to be an expert tree scientist without actually being one.

"And here comes the "cultural biases in tests" canard again. If the tests are bad, fix the tests. I tend to believe that our tests have been designed to test knowledge that we have decided is necessary and valuable to our society as a whole. If your "culture" doesn't jive with that I'm sorry but you'll need to get on board with the broader interests of society or else you won't have the knowledge that is necessary and valuable to our society as a whole, and you will pay a price for that later in life."

I'm sorry you think cultural biases in standardized tests are not real. ONce again here you have demonstrated that you know very little about the educational system and how it relates to socioeconomic disparities. A child from a family with educated parents is going to have a wider range of experiences, a larger vocabulary and better critical thinking skills as a result. This is a fact. I've known kids from the Bronx who've never even been to Manhattan! That child would have more difficulty answering a question that would spark his prior knowledge of the context of the question. Part of the learning process comes from synthesizing associations made from various experiences. Trips to the farm, the museum, Europe etc...poor children often do not have these opportunities and therein lies the cultural dilemma.
But here is the real problem I have with your argument. Instead of accepting your social darwinist sink or swim approach to improving society how about actually addressing the root problems instead of designing tests that divide and subdivide human beings into categories meant to predetermine their path in life.
Education experts have acknowledged disparities affecting children of color and children enrolled in special education programs and numerous studies have demonstrated a positive correlation between failure in school and a higher chance of ending up in the criminal justice system and called this trend the “school to prison pipeline.”
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #87
91. On creativity and trees.
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 12:27 PM by gorfle
I never said anything about testing creativity. I said that real learning comes from evoking the creative processes in the mind. I'm sorry if I was not more clear.

What you said was:

If you are like me and believe that creativity is the key to real learning then you would understand that forcing kids to do hours of mutilple choice prep with questions they don't understand and have not been effectively taught how to understand (see above list) will not help them.

In any case, if what you believe is most important to impart into children as part of the educational process is "creative processes in the mind", then 1) convince the rest of the educational professionals that this is so and then 2) come up with a test that provides a metric for measuring the creative process in the mind.

YOU NEED TO ACTUALLY BE A TEACHER SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED. I may be able to make informed opinions about trees but I cannot claim to be an expert tree scientist without actually being one.

I'm not claiming to be a teacher. However I'm glad you agree that I can make informed opinions about things that I am not an expert in, like teachers and the educational system.

I'm sorry you think cultural biases in standardized tests are not real.

I never said they are not real. I implied that they are not relevant. Our society's education professionals have decided that there is a certain body of knowledge that students must possess in order to perform satisfactorily in society after education. If your culture hinders you in acquiring or demonstrating this knowledge that is sad, but you must overcome it if you want to enjoy your full potential and measure of success in our society.

In short, people need to get over their "culture" and get with the program. You can call that harsh but the world will be far more harsh to them once they leave the educational system for the real world and the real world discovers that they didn't do well in school.

That said, I have no problem with making tests that are not culturally biased and yet still measure the metrics of education as educational professionals decide they need to be measured.

A child from a family with educated parents is going to have a wider range of experiences, a larger vocabulary and better critical thinking skills as a result. This is a fact.

Yes, I have acknowledged this previously. There is no doubt that students of less-educated parents are going to suffer from a variety of hindrances, as I mentioned before. Not only will they lack more experiences in life, but their parents likely will not be as high of standard a role-model to strive for, their parents will be less likely to be able to assist them with academic work, and their parents will likely have less time and resources to devote to their child's out-of-school academic endeavors.

But life is not going to give you a pass on all of these handicaps, so why should the testing process in our educational system?

But here is the real problem I have with your argument. Instead of accepting your social darwinist sink or swim approach to improving society how about actually addressing the root problems instead of designing tests that divide and subdivide human beings into categories meant to predetermine their path in life.

You mistake me gravely, and are setting up a false dichotomy. I am all for improving society and addressing the root problems of educational disparity. I just also happen to be all for testing for it so that those educational disparities can be highlighted and acted on! We don't have to have one at the expense of the other.

We need testing of students to determine the effectiveness of the educational process. This is in the interest of the students because it allows us to be certain that our children are getting the quality of education we desire them to have. But it also gives us, often uncomfortably, insight into disparities within the educational process, and allows us to examine what is causing those disparities.

I believe that many teachers are against measuring these disparities because they are afraid that it will turn out that perhaps some of them are the cause of the disparities.

Rigorous, quantifiable, uniform, objective testing will allow us identify and look at the causes of deficiencies and disparities in our educational process.

Yes, such testing also will "divide and subdivide human beings into categories meant to predetermine their path in life", but that is the way of the world. Generally, to the best goes the best. The better you do in school, the more likely it is you will do better in life.

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shellgame26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #91
99. once again
I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT TESTING CREATIVITY. I SAID THAT REAL LEARNING TAKES PLACE WHEN ONE'S IMAGINATION OR CREATIVITY IS EVOKED. What is it about that statement you cannot understand? You are distorting everything I said either deliberately or through ignorance. As far as I'm concerned I have already made my case by giving you countless examples from experience as to why there are disparities in the education system. You can gloss over them all you like, continue to make vague statements that demonstrate your lack of understanding and villify teachers which, as far as I'm concerned, is an insult to the majority of teachers who pour their hearts and souls into this thankless profession.

I have no time or interest in having a pissing contest with you because clearly this is what you are looking for.
Have a nice day.
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shellgame26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. and as far as
whether or not there is a "conspiracy to create a permanent underclass" goes, that is an ideological difference in which we can agree to disagree.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #72
83. Who said the tests represent the knowledge that we feel
needs to be demonstrated? A standardized test is limited in scope. Depth and quality of learning is not measured by a multiple-choice test.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. So change the test.
Who said the tests represent the knowledge that we feel needs to be demonstrated?

Whoever made the decision to use the current tests said that.

If you don't feel the tests measure the correct metrics then work to change the tests to measure the correct metrics.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #85
89. We have many local measures that do just that.
The problem is that they aren't standardized; you can't generalize results across a population.

We don't have standardized tests that represent all the knowledge that needs to be demonstrated because they aren't cost-effective. We already spend too much of the education budget on the tests that are there.

Standardized tests for students weren't developed to measure teacher effectiveness. They are developed to give one look at student achievement, with the full understanding that no one test can measure all student achievement accurately for all students.

Politicians misuse those tests, and have apparently convinced people like you that there is some effective way to test someone else to measure my professional competence. There's not.

Standardized tests measure the test-taker, and do so narrowly, and incompletely.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. I agree.
The problem is that they aren't standardized; you can't generalize results across a population.

We don't have standardized tests that represent all the knowledge that needs to be demonstrated because they aren't cost-effective. We already spend too much of the education budget on the tests that are there.

Standardized tests for students weren't developed to measure teacher effectiveness. They are developed to give one look at student achievement, with the full understanding that no one test can measure all student achievement accurately for all students.

Politicians misuse those tests, and have apparently convinced people like you that there is some effective way to test someone else to measure my professional competence. There's not.

Standardized tests measure the test-taker, and do so narrowly, and incompletely.


I agree with you that no test can measure all the knowledge that needs to be demonstrated, and tests have thus been created to measure that which has been determined to be essential and practical to measure.

I also agree that measuring student performance is not the sole measure by which you can judge teacher effectiveness. That said, testing can highlight poor teacher effectiveness. For example, I could have a class of students who fail their tests simply because they are unmotivated to learn. This would not be the fault of their teacher, it would be the fault of their parents. But I could also have a class of students who fail their tests because their teacher is incompetent. Either way, the tests point out a flaw in the educational process which then needs to be followed up to determine what, exactly is causing the problem.

I feel that many teachers are against testing because they are afraid such follow-ups will reveal the fact that some of them are the problem.

I agree with you that standardized tests measure the test-taker, and do so narrowly and incompletely. But if the test-taker fails the test, it says the educational process that failed him. Without testing, there is no way to know this nor to start looking at what the root causes are. Standardized testing allows us to make often uncomfortable comparisons across demographics, schools, and teachers. This is important.







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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. Some of that is correct.
I would say, though, this:

If you use student performance to measure teacher, what is going to determine factors like motivation, stressful or neglectful home life, etc., which is causing students to perform poorly?

I don't think there is a valid way to do that; at least, not a way that is practical and cost-effective.

That leaves the teacher on the hook regardless of what other factors are in play, and that is simply not valid, nor is it ethical.

If poor performance is because of factors that schools and teachers can't affect, it isn't the educational process that failed.

If it IS the educational process, teachers have little to no input on the system itself. Teachers would structure a system that would serve students more robustly and effectively. We aren't given that kind of power, though. The standards and accountability movement that drives education policy today is authoritarian; one of top down mandates. Add severe budget crises to the mix, and it becomes even more difficult.

On the front lines, we are constantly told to ignore what we can't change, and focus on what we can. And we do.

What we CAN change is very limited, though, in a rigidly standardized, over-crowded, under-funded, and under-staffed system.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #56
82. First you have to define teacher effectiveness.
Student achievement is not a valid measure of teacher effectiveness, because it is affected by factors outside a teacher's control.

An effective teacher is organized, well-planned, flexible, knowledgeable about both content and pedagogy, builds good relationships with students and parents, manages behavior effectively and appropriately, and differentiates instruction in the classroom.

That's quite a bit to measure, and it's not all that easy to do so.

Instead of focusing on how to measure teacher effectiveness, I would suggest that the focus be on how to support all teachers, even the best, in their efforts to improve their practice. Charlotte Danielson has some ideas that are more appropriate; she's not the only one, but this is a good place to start:

http://www.danielsongroup.org/theframeteach.htm
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #82
97. The problem is with the public school culture
There are so many assholes now who are principals, to say far too many who are too young for the job, the last thing teachers need is an even greater power disparity between principals and teachers.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. The link I gave you
doesn't depend on admins to do evaluations. They can, but evaluations can also be done by peers.

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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
58. As if Education graduates needed ANOTHER reason not to work in NYC! LOL!
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
63. Are they comparing test scores within a particular school
or comparing apples (a school in Bed-Stuy) to oranges (one on the Upper East Side)?
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avalonofmists Donating Member (54 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
65. The Gov. of WI is pushing this also. All for "race to the top" grants. It is all about
WI getting some of the grant money.


:puke:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Yes, the money from the DOE is speaking loudly.
:hi:
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #68
71. They're using blackmail money in order to gut teachers' legal protections, what few there are.
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 12:33 AM by tonysam
Pretty soon all teachers will be at-will (except the nepotisms, who will always have secure jobs), and there will be NO stability whatsoever for kids in public schools. Meanwhile administrators will share the spoils.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #65
96. They're doing it in Arizona, and they're doing it in Nevada.
I am sure everywhere else states are gutting teacher protections in order to get this blackmail money.
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abelenkpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
77. I wrote
to the president when I heard Arne Duncan was going to head up the dept. of education. I do not agree with grading teachers based on how students test and felt that would just lead to teachers pushing difficult students out of their class in order to grade higher which will greatly effect a kids self confidence and development. I know lots of parents who are keeping their kid out of school an extra year so they are more than prepared for kindergarten and can have an advantage. Honestly, kids all develop differently. Some never test well due to nervousness, but can display knowledge of the subject through homework and projects.

This decision is bad. I feel for anyone effected by such nonsense and view it as an attack on the public school system in general. Why are some people determined to undermine our public schools?


btw, homes with two working parents find it difficult enough to pay the bills, have little to no time to help their kids. It's generally not that they are unwilling to help. Our society is just that messed up.

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