I know the unemployment is unacceptable but

[doc03]

before you all go off half cocked about Obama not creating jobs, if the government is even capable of creating jobs. Look at this graph, it shows every recession in the last 36 years. From what I see this recession was much deeper than any the others and the jobs picture looks no different than any of the others. Scroll down and click on the chart to enlarge it.
http://www.zacks.com/stock/news/27640/Initial+Jobless+Claims+Plunge

[lonestarnot]

1. We are still on the brink of collapse and no I do not blame Mr. President!

But wish he had picked some people other than money grabbers to get us back in the groove.

[Lerkfish]

2. I'm guessing you're employed

I am not. the unemployment, while not Obama's fault, IS unacceptable

[doc03]

4. I said that it was unacceptable and your guess is dead wrong

I have been unemployed since April 17, 2009. I have seen several recessions and have been laid off before. The economy just doesn't turn around on a dime as a matter of fact it's best it doesn't. If you have to steep a turn around then you will be into stagflation again like in the 70's. I think the inflation in 70's hurt people much more than any recession we have had especially people on a fixed income.

[Lerkfish]

17. my apologies

I misread the wording of your OP.

However, what makes this situation highly different is the level of outsourcing, downsizing and collapse of housing.

those elements were not as prominent in previous downturns.

For that reason, I believe this will be a much more difficult position to come back from.

[treestar]

13. Yeah don't look at the graph, just make a personal attack

This is the internet. No one can prove whether they are employed or unemployed.

[Lerkfish]

16. my apologies

although I"m unclear how assuming someone is employed is a personal attack?

[treestar]

22. You were using the fact they were allegedly employed to avoid looking

at any good news, and claiming to be unemployed to undermine that?

Nothing but a determination to see doom and gloom.

Yet this recession is being recovered from just like any other. That fact stays regardless of who it is that is unemployed and who is employed, individually.

[Lerkfish]

23. we disagree, then

the fact you're citing are incomplete. One chart does not an oracle make, and past patterns in something as complicated as the economy do not guarantee future patterns,
that way lies lazy thinking.

and saying that I am "claiming" to be unemployed is not a personal attack?

You're calling me a liar.
LOL

[Raineyb]

27. Thank you.

[dixiegrrrrl]

3. How come he gets no credit for the 71,000 contractor jobs

we are paying for, in Afghanistan.
Not to mention the ones in Iraq and the rest of the world.
The Pres. should get credit for those, and for the increase in recruits into the military.

Just saying...fair's fair.

[doc03]

7. Does anyone consider how many jobs and families the

raise in unemployment payments and the extensions helped save. What about the HCTC supplements for COBRA, that sure has kept a lot of people afloat too.

[SammyWinstonJack]

29. +1

:thumbsup: :evilgrin:

[laughingliberal]

5. Couple of differences with this recession

From your article link:


<snip> However, the core of the problem in the labor market this time around is not that layoffs are that abnormally high, but that hiring is abnormally low. (See It's the Lack of Job Creation, Stupid!) and that once a job is lost, there is a much larger percentage than historically that it will have been lost for good, rather than a temporary layoff. (see Permanent vs. Temporary Lay-Offs). <snip>

Another point is, in the past, unemployment numbers were calculated differently. Under the standards used in previous recessions today's unemployment rate is, by most estimates, closer to 17%.

Worth mentioning as a difference in this recession is over 50% of homeowners are upside down on their mortgages.

What the American people need to see is effort. Not all of FDR's programs were successful. His success was the result of continuing to institute policies and programs aimed at the average person and standing up to the gilded ones. People were able to see he was on their side and supported his efforts. Today, we are still seeing the steady stream of wealth transferring up.

[doc03]

10. I have heard the same argument about

the real unemployment numbers all my life. As far as mortgages being upside down, that's their own damn fault for taking out loans with no down payment and payments they couldn't handle. This is not 1929 and we are in debt up to our ass and there is no way you could sell any government make work program to the American people, it just won't happen. As far as job creation I am amazed there are any jobs when you go to a store and 100% of the products come from China.

[laughingliberal]

19. "taking out mortgages with no downpayment and payments they couldn't handle"

I know this is the MSM take on the mortgage crisis but I think it's mostly a RW talking point. My husband and I took out a conventional loan with more than enough income to pay it in 2005. Our FICO scores were over 800 for years. In 2006 the housing market started to tank and my husband's business (which he has operated since 1982) started tanking along with it. In 2007 my husband was diagnosed with cancer I lost my job and the premium to COBRA the insurance was $1200 per month. We had little income but, until my husband could get through his cancer treatments, we had to scrape up the premium. We have managed to keep just ahead of foreclosure but don't know how much longer we will be able to. We are upside down on our mortgage 2nd to the decline in property values in this area. We live in a state with the 2nd highest foreclosure rate and the highest negative equity. I don't think we caused these conditions. We have just had the misfortune to be trapped by all the conditions which have decimated the working class in this country.

What is the current obsession to assure ourselves that people who are upside down on mortgages or losing their homes brought it on themselves? I understand why the MSM is pushing this message but why am I seeing so much of this on a Democratic website? I am a lifelong Democrat who always believed the Democrats stood for the working class. I'm seeing less of that these days.

As for selling Americans on "make work" programs, I believe it could be done. It is becoming apparent people are pissed about jobs and I believe would support efforts to get people working. As for the debt, it never seems to matter when we are paying for wars or corporate welfare. If people go back to work, the revenue stream goes up. A lot of deficit problems are solved by putting people to work.

edited to add: you may have heard about real unemployment numbers "all your life" but it was widely reported by progressive media when the Bush administration changed the way they were counted in order to hide their jobless recovery. It may well be that there was always a disparity between the actual and the reported numbers but it is a greater disparity now than in past recessions.

[northernlights]

28. "make work" programs?

How about programs to increase our energy efficiency, clean energy programs, and starting at least to restructure to a sustainable society? How about programs to restore commuter rail, mass transit and walkable cities? How about programs to rebuild crumbling inner city schools, and to reduce student:teacher ratios?

The "make work" programs of the 30s built the middle class of the 40s and 50s. Building schools and the highway system put people to work *and* paved the way to a better life and future for many.

We could have completely rebuilt our economy probably with half the effing bank bail n'bonus money. But wait, I forgot. That would have taken too much time. Much easier and faster to just fork over a few trillion to Goldman and friends.

[FarLeftFist]

6. I've said all along....

The Govt. can't create jobs, banks create jobs. Govt can try and create a good business atmosphere but that's no guarantee new businesses will be created or hire more employees.The RW likes to complain all day about Govt interference and how they want the Govt to stay out of their lives, but they are the first to complain when Govt isn't doing enough for them, that is, until they need them to serve their own self-interests.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Taitertots]

9. Who are we supposed to go off on then?

Obama is the top of the pecking order. Bush caused it, now it is going to be Obama's fault if we don't fix it.


Just blaming Bush isn't going to work anymore. As we approach a year with NO economic relief it is starting to become Obama's depression. He needs to do something before we start living in Obamavilles.

[FarLeftFist]

11. I think we should bomb Iraq again.

j/k

[doc03]

14. First of all it was stupid to think

you could treat Republicans nice and they would do what is right for the country. I said it when Obama took office, every time any Democrat even mentions the economy call it the Republican recession, that's what they did with Clinton in 2001 even though it didn't start until 2 months after GWB took office.

[treestar]

20. B.S. Bush started this one just as every other one has been started by a

repuke. Top of what pecking order? The POTUS is head of the executive branch.

The graph shows the relief is already happening. It goes down just like it did after the other recessions.

[Taitertots]

33. I'm not all together sure you understand that graph

That graph can be at zero and the economy can still be devastated and not getting any better.

What does it mean? That even thou the amount of new people getting unemployment is going down, the number of people out of work is still increasing. The people who were on unemployment are not getting jobs.

[treestar]

12. It doesn't look worse than the 82 recession to me

Looking at the graph. About the same as that one.

[doc03]

15. A little longer I think n/t

[Lerkfish]

21. the graph doesn't tell the whole story.. you should not misunderstand it.

what the graph does not take into account is the current anemia of the dollar, the systemic reduction of workforce to outsourcing, the plundering of capital by CEOs, the lack of depth of manufacturing or other industrys which have atrophied since the last downturn,

The problem is we adjusted ourselves from a manufacturing economy to a service economy. Since companies are OUTSOURCING those services to India, mexico, china, we're left with a smaller and smaller recirculation of wealth and the demand for those services dries up as well.


ecomonics is highly complicated and one indicator does not take into account all of the variables.

[Hannah Bell]

31. longer, more job losses %, & 82 was worst since the Depression.

[doc03]

18. Get this through you head people, you are not going to

start any FDR style work projects. We were left in debt up to our ass and the American people just aren't going to go for it. For Chrissakes the Republicans are for stopping all Stimulus spending yesterday, for fear it may work IMO.

[SammyWinstonJack]

32. Plenty of tax $$$ to fund WAR and the WAR PROFITEERS though, right?

But NO tax $$$ to help people.


PRIORITIES man PRIORITIES

We should ALL be so proud. :puke:

[LWolf]

24. How about if I go off full-cocked?

Hard to do, though, without a gender change.

I don't see "much deeper." Although it's likely to be, as it continues on without job recovery.

The 80's recession was just as deep, despite the little mini-recovery shown in 1981. That wasn't a real "recovery," obviously; it crashed before it really got going. That's the recession where I was jobless, trying to find ANYTHING to bring in some extra money. So I showed up at 7am to apply for a job as a kennel cleaner for less than minimum wage. There was a line. When I got to the front, they warned me that my application was the 91st.

Anyway, it's just as "deep" as the recession today.

The government is certainly capable of creating jobs. Here's one way: Repeal NAFTA. Except that Obama is a NAFTA/CAFTA supporter.

And our money that helped bail out the banks? It's not creating jobs here at home:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7070727

[doc03]

35. You said it they are not going to repeal NAFTA. They

used our money to bail out the banks but if they didn't the world's financial system would have totally collapsed and we would be in even worse shape.

[LWolf]

36. How about some limits on how that bail-out money can be spent...

for example, hiring people in the states instead of outsourcing.

I'd love to see NAFTA/CAFTA repealed. I know better to expect that from an Obama administration. I'd like to see SOME consideration given to labor and to job creation right here, though, rather than having our tax dollars spent on outsourcing jobs somewhere else.

[endless october]

25. bring back manufacturing.

without that, it's going to be hard to recover.

[Better Today]

26. Well, duh, as long as we keep doing the same things to resolve

the recession, we'll get the same results. For the three or so recessions that have occurred in my lifetime, they have all been handled by bailing out the rich in some form or fashion, whether by tax breaks for the rich or bailouts of corps and banks, at least that is my off-hand memory of things.

I was really hopeful that the Obama Admin would not be so foolish as to follow the status quo and would work from the middle out instead of top down.

Government can create jobs, but not without a stimulus specifically aimed at the middle class, small business people (under 100 employees), and infrastructure repairs by either government or USA contractors (not Chinese as seen recently in NY I think). JMHO.

[anonymous171]

30. I stopped reading at "if the government is even capable of creating jobs"

[laughingliberal]

34. probably wise. should have, myself nt