So, who survived Turkey Day visiting with the Teabaggers in the family?

[baldguy]

It was the same old shit from my aunt & my cousin: blame Obama for everything bad, Bush was the Second Coming & Beck, O'Reilly & Limbaugh are his profits - er, I mean "prophets" - and Sarah is the only hope for America. I tried to keep my mouth shut. After all they were feeding me.

Until my cousin said Obama was also responsible for "that terrorist at Ft Hood."

I said simply & calmly: "He wasn't a terrorist. He was just a nutcase."

He looked at me incredulous & angry (they're always angry, aren't they?): "He killed 13 people!"

Me (still calm): "So? Mass murderers aren't automatically terrorists. Was Jeffery Dahmer a terrorist?"

Him (even more angry): "But he's a radical Muslim! He attacked a military base!"

Me: "He attacked the community around the military base. And even that moron Bush said repeatedly that Muslims aren't the enemy. There are 3 million Muslims in America. Are they all terrorists?"

No answer.

"There are thousands who've serve in uniform, and hundreds who've died fighting for this country. Are they all terrorists, too?"

Still no answer.

"For something to be terrorism, there needs to be some political point to it. What was his political motivation?"

At this point, his 17-yr old son says under his breath "Oooooo! BURN!"

:rofl:

Finally, my cousin pipes up: "He was against the war!"

Me: "So are the great majority of the people in America, that's one of the reasons why Obama won last year. And if you're so afraid of terrorism, you would be too."

At this point, my aunt called out "No more politics!" and served pie.

[LynzM]

1. Nicely done!

Damn, dude. Sorry you have to deal with that, but nicely dished.

[Libertas1776]

2. Ah, pie!

the eternal peacemaker:9


Great Story.

[otohara]

3. I Always Like These Thanksgiving Stories

we don't know any of these types and no family.

Although I did find out my friend's husband has been watching Beck and listening to the pig on the radio and I was blown away. I told him I was embarrassed for him.

[treestar]

4. This was a good TG

The relative who always whines about "the politicians" and how terrible they are (and who has everything a middle class person could want in life) didn't talk or bring up those horrid politicians.

[wtmusic]

5. He got schooled

and to reward you with a piece of pumpkin pie is the least he could do. Education is expensive.

:thumbsup:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

6. A prominent Democratic Senator thinks it was a terrorist attack.

[baldguy]

8. Lieberman isn't a Democrat.

And he's only prominent because he's an exceptional asshole.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

16. Levin is.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/11/carl-levin-fort-hood-terrorism.html

[baldguy]

21. Apearently you didn't read the article beyond the misleading headline.

What he actually said is "I'm not uncomfortable with thinking that's the likely outcome here and a likely accurate description." There are a lot of modifiers in that sentence, and he clearly indicates in the video that he has not completed any hearings himself, he's waiting for the local criminal investigations to be completed and that more information is needed.

He never unequivocally states that the Ft Hood attack was terrorism. The only people who've done that are Republicans & their fellow travelers.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

24. I think it likely is. Only Hasan knows for sure. Many here KNEW Sparkman was murdered.

Only time will tell.

[baldguy]

34. Then I'll ask you: What was Hasan's POLITICAL motivation?

Terrorism isn't just murder. It's a political action which has the objective to create fear in a target population to such an extent as to force them to alter their behavior. In order to instill that fear, the motivation of the terrorist has to be broadcast within the target population as widely and deeply as possible, with the threat of additional action.

So what was Hasan's motivation? What did he want America to do differently? Did he articulate it to any one, at any time? Did he or any of his (imaginary) cohorts make a phone call? Send an email or a letter? Scrawl some graffiti?

Was he really a terrorist? Or was he just a another nutcase who was stressed out about his job, just like a hundred others that have flipped out & killed people?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

37. I think it would fall more under the ideological goal definition.

[baldguy]

39. But ... WHAT ... IS ... IT?

How did he broadcast it? How was his goal to be continued after he (as he expected) was killed?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

41. WHEN DID HE SAY HE EXPECTED TO BE KILLED? I MISSED IT.

[baldguy]

42. Just like my cousin - you can't answer honestly & with regard to the facts w/o betraying yourself.

The answer is, of course, that HE HAD NO POLITICAL MOTIVE. The Ft Hood attack was the product of a troubled mind, not an ideology. He was not receiving any direction from anyone connected with terrorism, and nobody was working with him. And once he was in custody, there was no danger of any further attacks.

Nidal Hasan is no terrorist. The only motive for people trying to characterize him as such wish to do so in order to paint Obama as "soft" of terrorism - and incidentally absolve Bush of the same charge.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

43. Maybe you missed post #24 where I said only Hasan knows for sure.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

44. Political motive isn't necessary for an act to be an act of terrorism.

[baldguy]

45. Why do I feel like I'm stuck in Monty Python's Argument Clinic talking to John Cleese?

Terrorism is the systematic use of terror to coerce a group of people to alter their behavior as a group. Politics is the process by which a group of people make decisions regarding that behavior. Therefore, terrorism is one method of political persuasion.

So, yes a political motive is necessary for something to be an act of terrorism.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

46. Give me the link to the source of your definition?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

47. Was the Oklahoma City Bombing a terrorist attack?

[baldguy]

48. Are you insinuating Tim McVeigh didn't have a political motive?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

49. Are saying that Hasan has absolutely no political motive?

[baldguy]

52. No, Hasan had no political motive he isn't a terrorist.

And since you believe he is a terrorist, and by any pertinent definition a political motive is a prerequisite for terrorism, I'm still waiting for you to enlighten us as to what it is.

Other than just being a bad person that is.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

53. How do you know? How's that link coming?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

55. Senior Official: More Hasan Ties to People Under Investigation by FBI

A senior government official tells ABC News that investigators have found that alleged Fort Hood shooter Nidal Malik Hasan had "more unexplained connections to people being tracked by the FBI" than just radical cleric Anwar al Awlaki. The official declined to name the individuals but Congressional sources said their names and countries of origin were likely to emerge soon.

Brian Ross investigates possible missed signals leading to Fort Hood massacre.Questions already surround Major Hasan's contact with Awlaki, a radical cleric based in Yemen whom authorities consider a recruiter for al Qaeda. U.S. officials now confirm Hasan sent as many as 20 e-mails to Awlaki. Authorities intercepted the e-mails but later deemed them innocent or protected by the first amendment.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/official-nidal-hasan-unexplained-connections/story?id=9048590


HMMMMMM.

[baldguy]

60. So, Hasan sent emails that were "innocent or protected by the first amendment."

Well, that's a real smoking gun! All people who have the audacity to exercise their Constitutional rights MUST be terrorists! Especially if they have weird-sounding foreign names! and practice some bizarre unAmerican religion!

:eyes:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

62. And again how do you know he doesn't have a political motive? Interviews? Torture?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

63. You assume those are the only correspondence. I'll wait and see personally.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

65. and about your claim that he expected to be killed. Still waiting on some proof of that.

I know you are very short on proof. HOPE springs eternal though.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

57. Lieberman's Right on Fort Hood

I have a hard time looking at or listening to Joe Lieberman.

I know this is my problem. If I agreed with the man's politics, I'd likely view his smirking mien, his habit of droning and whining, even that occasional Alfred E. Newman grin with something resembling affection. But Lieberman's behavior from after the 2000 presidential campaign to the present is riddled with hypocrisy, and defiance of his own much-vaunted "conscience." In 2006, for example, he advocated a "MediChoice" system that would "allow anybody in our country to buy into a national health-insurance pool like...members of Congress have." What is that, if not a public option? So bitter is Lieberman at Democrats, and disrespectful of the American people, that when campaigning for John McCain he actually declared Sarah Palin fit to be president.

Yet, when it comes to the Fort Hood slayings, Joe Lieberman is spot on.

The murderous outburst of Major Nidal Hasan was an unambiguous act of terrorism. It's appropriate and necessary for Lieberman as chair of the Senate's Homeland Security Committee (please deal with that, Harry Reid) to find out why this particular terrorist was tolerated within the ranks of the U.S. Army. Hasan had for some time exchanged e-mails with the extremist cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, prescribed violent medicine for "infidels," and been found guilty by his peers and superiors of poor judgment and incompetence. And, possibly, mental illness.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/norm-stamper/liebermans-right-on-fort_b_371746.html



I'd like to see you go off on Norm Stamper like you said you did your cousin. LOL.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

79. Yet 2 of the 3 defintions that you gave don't mention political motive. Interesting.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

51. Still waiting on that link btw.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

54. McVeighs motive was revenge. He wasn't trying to change any groups thinking.

[baldguy]

56. Revenge? What for? Who was he trying the get revenge on?

And you should be advised that I do know the answers to these questions, so you're at a disadvantage.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

58. Good you know the answer. What groups thinking was he trying to change?

[baldguy]

66. OK City was revenge for Waco & Ruby Ridge. McVeigh was attacking the Federal Govt

and by extension the American people. He had clear POLITICAL motives - the same old evil anti-govt bullshit: no taxes, all guns, with a little White Supremacist & Christian Identity evil thrown in.

McVeigh was a terrorist.

Now Jeffery Dahmer killed a lot of people, too. His activities were both terrifying and horrific. Yet, nobody even bring up the possibility that he was a terrorist.

Why? Because he was an average-looking middle-class white boy? Obviously not. McVeigh was an average-looking middle-class white boy, and almost everyone agrees that he was a terrorist. Dahmer wasn't because he had no political motivation for his crimes. McVeigh did.

Where does Hasan fall? He exhibited unusual behavior, as several of his clients & co-workers observed. And the fan mail sent to al Awlaki was certainly out of the ordinary for a Major serving in the US Army. But did al Awlaki try to recruit Hasan to engage in a terrorist attack? Since the FBI has seen these emails and described them as being either "innocent or protected by the first amendment" and made no mention of it, probably not. Did Hasan himself try to recruit anyone else to his "cause"? Apparently not; Hasan acted alone. Was he seeking revenge on anyone in particular, like his supervisor or his commanding officer or his co-workers? Again, apparently not.

Why then do conservatives want to tag Hasan as a terrorist? Could it be that he's NOT an average-looking middle-class white boy, but is instead a big, scary alien Muslim dude with a strange unAmerican name? I think so.

It can't be that Hasan, a MUSLIM, had psychological problems - like Dahmer - that he couldn't handle without murdering people. After all THEY'RE NOT LIKE US! They don't have morals or feelings of love their children like we do. Right? And they can't swear an oath to serve America, because they're all rabid religious fanatics that could kill anyone around them at any moment.

Right?


No of course not. You wouldn't believe that. As any reasonable person can see, Hasan is just a guy that went over the edge. He was too unstable to have any political axe to grind. And he made no political statements regarding his crimes.

Hasan was not a terrorist.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

68. You think he was not a terrorist. I think it's possible he had a political or religious motive.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

69. Again what groups thinking was McVeigh attempting to influence?

[baldguy]

76. Work on your reading comprehension skills, too.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

77. Based on your defintions and the fact they don't mention political motive, pot meet kettle.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

70. Why do you refuse to give me that link to your terrorism definition?

[baldguy]

74. How is it wrong?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terrorism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism
http://www.terrorism-research.com/
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/politics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics

Or do you need a few ESL lessons?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

75. 2 out of the first 3 don't mention political motive. Perhaps you need the english class.

[baldguy]

82. Huh...can't count either. I gave you 6 links.

The FBI uses this: "Terrorism is the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of POLITICAL or social objectives." The U.S. Department of State defines "terrorism" to be "premeditated POLITICALLY-motivated violence perpetrated against non-combatant targets by sub-national groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.

An honest man would now admit he's painted himself into a corner & give up.

Or do you want to argue against the FBI and the US State Dept, too?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

83. That OR in your FBI quote. It rules out terrorsim having to be solely politically motivated. DUH.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

84. The first 3 doesn't mean there aren't more. That's simple logic and reasoning. Keep up.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

78. Hasan's act may have been perpetrated for an ideological goal. Do you disagree?

[Name removed]

86. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

80. I bet you wish you had read those definitions before starting this little debate, eh?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

59. Funny that you skipped all that other stuff. Now about that link.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

61. Revenge against those he blamed for what he deemed murders.

Specifically revenge against the federal government for the actions at Ruby Ridge and Waco.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

81. What did Timothy McVeigh want America to do differently?

[Arkana]

11. Holy Joe turned his Dem badge in when he decided to play the sore loser

after the CT primary.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

17. Read the news sometime.

[HughMoran]

18. ...and politicians never lie

:rofl:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

19. and unpopular views are tolerated at DU!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[HughMoran]

22. The latter is true

There are always people who will agree with an unpopular view, though supporting Dems is very unpopular here which is somewhat odd.

[Cha]

64. Nobody sane cares what lieberman says.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

72. So you don't appear so ignorant try reading more of the thread before commenting.

[Cha]

88. I don't need to read any of the thread to make that comment.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

90. It would have helped if you had known I was referring to Levin. DOH.

[baldguy]

73. Apparently some people posting on DU are insane.

They're easy to spot, though. Like insisting ate the sky is green, at lease until their argument requires that the sky is purple. Then they'll insist that the sky isn't green.

And the sane people are always saying "Whaddya mean, purple? The sky is blue."

[Cha]

89. So, I enjoyed your report of the repartee

with your relative on Thanksgiving..'cause you burned!

[PDJane]

7. Ohhhhhhhhhhhh...........BURN is right!

that's amusing. However, there are no real right wingers left in my family (aside from the fact that thanksgiving here was in October), and political discussions tend to be mostly hilarity around my dinner table lately.

[FarLeftFist]

9. What kind of pie was it?

[baldguy]

14. There was a choice of apple, pumpkin & pecan

We like our pie.

[Arkana]

10. No teabaggers in my Thanksgiving--the only Republicans are on my dad's side

and we don't invite them to family gatherings.

[Prism]

12. I had the opposite experience

Everyone at my Thanksgiving was even further to the left than I am (granted, this was Berkeley, CA).

I didn't know what to do. I kinda wanted to play devil's advocate just to mix things up. So I waited for a lull in the conversation and finally said "I heart Sarah Palin." Just to see the looks on their faces.

It was totally worth it ^^

[FarLeftFist]

15. I know what your saying.

My whole childhood was listening to Liberals argue with Progressives. That and how horrible Reagan was.

[ohheckyeah]

13. My husband wasn't feeling well

so I missed out on the family turkey dinner but I also missed out on listening to the right wingers in the family. Probably not a bad trade off.

[barbtries]

20. great story

that often seems to be how it ends. when they find they cannot win an argument (because their points all suck), suddenly "no more politics." lol thanks for sharing.

[alittlelark]

23. I bought some 'special fudge' w/ my card.

My Father in Law is a Limbaugh nutcase but ALWAYS stoned. I offered him the fudge the minute he walked in the door and ignored him for an hour or so.

By the time I had to deal w/ him he was in a near-coma and his wife drove him home.

His daughter (DUer ProzacNation) thanked me profusely!

[ZombieHorde]

29. Awesome. Good move. Weed rules, I should buy some. nt

[la la]

25. I survived-

shouldn't there be a tee-shirt for us?

i pretty much tuned out and stayed in my own little world--not listening to any of it--i think it comes with age--they all know how i feel and leave me alone! ;>0

[waiting for hope]

26. My Mom stated that we are on our

way to being in a socialist state .... *sigh*, if it were only true. I told her that it would never happen - the corporate bloodsuckers like their position of power too much. She believes what Fox Noise tells her.

[Frau Bauer]

27. Heh, nearly all my family members are Democrats.

Yeah, basically everyone in my family are Democrats, so I've never really had that problem with my family...sucks that you do, though! :(

[mamaleah]

28. Yes, but only because family means more to me than politics. We have a family policy

of not trying to provoke needless arguments on holidays.

Family > political chest beating any day of the week.

[freeplessinseattle]

30. Barely. holy moley it always stuns and saddens me.

Criminy. They seriously think Palin is the only trustworthy political figure and feed into her whole victim BS. seriously. My head hurts.

[fl_dem]

31. no passionate debates this year as

I enacted a "leave your politics at the door if you want to eat in my house" rule. It could have been interesting with the rethuglicans out numbered, however, enjoying AND LIKING my family was more important.

[Imajika]

32. Beck was a problem...

Somehow, a few of the normally less fanatical wingnut relatives have found Glenn Beck and decided he is their saviour.

I was pretty shocked to find they literally recorded his show and watched EVERY day. These family members are literally traumatized when Beck is off and not hosting his show.

Basically, these are the people that were already kinda rightwing, but never really paid attention enough to argue for very long. Now they are quoting Beck and think they are privy to some inside information and believe they see the Obama "conspiracy" that Beck has opened their eyes too.

I pulled out a laptop and played the video of Beck rubbing Vicks under his eyes to generate fake tears which kinda shut them up. I actually think it kinda shook them to see their hero faking it to put on a show. They really believed he was sooooooo genuine.

Later I played John Stewart's impression of Beck which everyone thought was hysterical. I also think this served to diminish Beck further in light of the Vicks fakery they'd witnessed earlier. Pretty sure they left a little less enamored of him.

[zbdent]

33. on "He was against the war!" ...

there's now a bunch of teabirthers who are against the war because Obama's in charge of it ...

are they terrorists? oops ... they're old white "Christians" ... they can't be terrorists ...

[pipi_k]

35. My sympathies

to all who had to deal with dinner with the Teabaggers.

I didn't have to deal with any. We went to my stepdaughter's house (who is a gourmet cook) and had a wonderful meal and we all laughed and had an absolutely great time, like we always do.

14 people and not a Teabagger in the bunch.


:)

[K8-EEE]

36. hahaha! Good one! Luckily my fam is freeper-free....

Good for you for dishing it bsck because in my experience they can NEVER take it

[slackmaster]

38. I was with a very mixed group, and we all agreed on one thing

Sarah Palin is a ninny and is probably going to be seen as irrelevant by most people in the near future.

[alittlelark]

40. I gave my FiL a piece of 'special' fudge as soon as he arrived.

w/in an hour he was incapable of arguments .

The family thanked me.

[RedCloud]

50. Had racists and anti gay morons. Sadly the Cherokee man did not show up.

So I could have asked him if by fighting the pale faces' wars, he feels even prouder of his Cherokee heritage?

[DemBones DemBones]

67. Cheer up, maybe you'll outlive them all and then

you can be alone on Thanksgiving and other holidays.

[HughMoran]

71. Dads friend was talking about reading Palins book. I told him it would make good target practice

:rofl:

Man, he had no response to that. Fortunately it was liberals 5 - right wing dolts - 1. :)

[EFerrari]

85. LOL. Did they also talk about the author of "Palin's book"?

[HughMoran]

87. He actually said that she seemed "rather shallow" in the book

He wasn't impressed with the "content" of the book - lol. At another point he did start talking about her as if she was a human being - at which point I went into the kitchen with my mother and whispered as loudly as I could "does he actually take her seriously? I didn't think that was possible - are you kidding me?"

:rofl:

[HuckleB]

91. No teabaggers at our T-day!!!!!

[Harry Monroe]

92. Your cousin sounds like my brother

He cannot rationalize nor think for himself, but damn can he parrot those Fox News talking points!! When faced with facts his head simply explodes. Fortunately, I didn't have to see him this year. I had a quiet Thanksgiving with my wife, son and in-laws. The wife recently got out of the hospital and we took it easy.