How do you feel about uniforms in public schools?

[bluestateguy]

I can really see both sides. It was a fad in the 90's that I remember Bill Clinton piggy backed onto in the '96 campaign.

On the one hand, I'm very much for school discipline, and I think uniforms promote that. Uniforms can promote school spirit and solidarity. Another thing that can be an issue in schools where you have a mixed income student body is that the popular kids tend to be richest kids with the money to buy the fanciest clothes. Kids from lower income backgrounds feel ostracized for not wearing the trendiest, newest clothes. Uniforms can bring that problem under control, and school should not be a fashion show anyway.

On the other hand, I can also see the side to the argument that says that uniforms diminish students' individuality. And of course, somebody has to pay for those uniforms too.

[SoCalNative]

1. Someone would have to pay for their regular clothes as well

so it's not really an issue, is it?

[MattBaggins]

51. No it's a huge issue

With uniforms parents have to pay for twice the number of clothes for their kids.

[A HERETIC I AM]

58. How do you figure?

A parent is either buying "school clothes" or they are buying uniforms. What does it take to have enough clothes for a kid to go to school each day wearing something different?

With uniforms, you can get away with as few as 2 or 3 pairs of trousers, 3 shirts, etc.

I wore a school uniform when we lived in Australia in the 1970's and it wasn't nearly as expensive as you are implying. I wore the same basic outfit every day, I just had 3 pairs of slacks and a few white shirts, one v-neck sweater and one pair of black shoes.

[MattBaggins]

60. No I still need clothes for after school

We do things after school. I don't need to have two sets of clothes for every day of the week.

YOU may only need a few pairs of pants and shirts but that is not the case for me. I do not need the added expense of other people forcing me to but extra cloths for my kids.

How about you buy uniforms for your kids and I will dress my kids appropriately but in a manner that I see fit. We can both be happy in our own choices.

[A HERETIC I AM]

66. You wouldn't be buying anything "extra"

Perhaps your experience purchasing clothes for your kids is different than what I went through when I was younger, but we had "school clothes" and we had casual or "play" clothes. Even when I attended schools that did not require uniforms (which was the majority of my school years) I didn't go outside to play in the same clothes I wore to school. So I had two "sets of clothes" anyway.

How about you buy uniforms for your kids and I will dress my kids appropriately but in a manner that I see fit. We can both be happy in our own choices.

If you live in the United States, you are free to send your children to a school that has no uniform requirements. I was simply relating my experience in Australia where we had no choice. All primary schools available to us required uniforms.

If you dress your kids "appropriately" then you are spending money on clothing for that specific purpose. I don't see how it is possible for that to cost less than spending money on a uniform worn by your kids for 6 or 8 hours a day during the week.

I get that you don't like the idea, but I think your argument based on cost doesn't hold up. But, as I said, if you live in the states, you don't have to worry about anyone forcing you to buy anything unless you decide to send your kids to a school that has a uniform requirement.

[MattBaggins]

69. It's different for me then

I do have outside running around older clothes for the kids to play in, but the clothes for school are the same for normal after school or public wear. Uniforms would cost me more.

I did not know you went to school in Australia so I failed to see that cultural difference.I apologize for that. Yes I know that I am the typical hard headed American when it come to this issue. I teach my kids that the teacher is in charge at school and I support a common sense dress code. Hell last week my one child's first grade class decided to have a pajama party and my daughter was upset when I told her pajamas are not appropriate for school and made her wear clothes. Despite that; ultimately, how my children are dressed is a boundary that belongs to me as their parent.

Hard headed American? You betcha. Dressing my kids? My business.

[pipi_k]

78. That's how it was when I grew up, too.

Mom went out and got the "school clothes" each year, which consisted of a couple of dresses each and a pair of saddle shoes. We didn't wear them to play outside. For outside, we had corduroy pants and sneakers for fall, shorts and sneakers for summer.

We weren't rich, so we didn't have a lot to wear unless our older girl cousins passed down their clothes to us once a year.

No matter how poor we were, we had our "school clothes" and our "outside clothes" and they were ugly, but that's how things were back then.

[MattBaggins]

81. It was the same for me and is for my kids but slightly different

At least half the clothes my kids have are hand me downs including their "good clothes". Most of the clothes I had as a kid were hand me downs. For me the "play clothes" are clothes from last year that still fit or clothes that got stained or worn out a bit.

I don't have "school clothes" per se. The clothes for school are nice clothes. Now I'm not some rich snob either. "Nice Clothes" often means no holes or stains. School clothes are also after school, public activities, visiting family and friends clothes. I discount running around outside playing clothes since those are old or worn out anyway. Uniforms would be an extra cost for me since I still need something for all the other activities.

I know that some people say we could be like the Japanese or Koreans and kids could wear uniforms all the time. Well here's a little hint on that idea. If I wanted to be like the Japanese I would move there. I live here in America for a reason.

[Toucano]

95. Don't let them fool you. It was as you describe when I was a growing up in the U.S.

We had school clothes (though not uniform), play clothes, and "Sunday clothes".

Play clothes were either slightly worn school clothes, outgrown clothes from older siblings or cousins or things picked up at a garage or yard sale (most could be bought for accumulated coins).

School clothes were purchased in August and refreshed at Christmas and Birthdays. We loved exchanging clothes with their cousins or friends. We never felt deprived.

Sunday clothes were purchased for Easter or a wedding or a funeral. The would be modified, taken in, let out or otherwise altered to get the maximum use.



Of course, we did not have televisions in our bedrooms, cell phones in our hands, ipods around our necks, computers in every room of the house. It's about what you value as a family, a community and a society.

Some value their sacred right to dress their children from the pages of the latest magazine more than they value other qualities. They define individuality by their ability to purchase and use mass produced clothing, the individual being the person who wears something from a run of several hundred thousand pieces.

[Cleita]

144. I dunno. When I came home from school, I put on jeans and a T-shirt, which

I often wore for several days. The only time I got dressed up was to go into town or to church on Sunday. It wasn't a big deal and frankly I could have the clothes I really wanted to wear after school not the ones approved of by the school with their dress codes.

[dysfunctional press]

189. and those clothes will last twice as long with half the wear...

so the cost issue is moot.

[SoCalNative]

192. You are aware

that most "uniforms" required by schools, esp public schools, are normally some type of polo shirt (usually white) and some type of pants or skirt (usually chinos for the pants in tan or navy).

So they're not "uniforms" in the sense of a private school type. They work just as well for after school events as for school. They're just generic normal clothes.

[Cleita]

207. I thought these were cute and they don't cost more

than $4.75 for the shirt, $7.00 for the shorts and $8.50 for long pants.



http://www.thechildrenswearoutlet.com/shop/index.php?target=categories&category_id=246

[blueamy66]

91. My Mom bought

2 skirts and 3 tops and a sweater.

Um, not much $ to shell out, ya know?

[Cleita]

141. The uniform doesn't need to be anything elaborate like the private schools

with their ties and blazers. Slacks and a golf style T-Shirt is sufficient for public school for both sexes. I'm sure a clothing coupon could be made available to the parents of poor children like food stamps are. I had three uniforms, one to wash, one to wear and one to spare. It was a lot cheaper than having a closet full of clothes that had to keep up with the fashion.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

196. and at my school that slacks and golfshirt combo cost $80

and you had to buy a minimum of three pairs and you could find garments of roughly the same quality anywhere else on earth for practically nothing.

The same thing can be accomplished with a modest dress code, setup an opportunity for a cash grab and the school will take it.

[Cleita]

200. Sorry but it doesn't have to cost that much.

Like I said poor children should be able to get clothing vouchers from the government. I'd think also the parents would complain about something that is costing three times as much as it should. Also, in my school, since you outgrew uniforms every year, used uniforms in good condition could be sold to more thrifty parents for much less than they cost new.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

204. well it did cost that much, and that was the 80's

and yes, parents did complain bitterly and were ignored. It was for the good of the school after-all.

The only place to get the uniforms were the PTA, absolute minimum cost $240 a year and you would usually need to replace the crap no later than thanksgiving.

[nadinbrzezinski]

209. My nephews go to a private school

and damn it their uniforms do not run that much... TODAY.

It is a pair of chino pants, and a T-Shirt...

Three of them, one to wear, one to wash one to have in drawer. Oh and they can go down to Target and get them too, for about eighty for all... including shoes.

[DaveinJapan]

2. In general, uniforms would be cheaper for parents I think.

In Japan all the kids wear them, and they keep them on when they go out after school too. You only see kids kicking around in regular clothes on the weekends, pretty much. And you'd only need to buy 2 or 3 sets, in comparison to 4-5 sets of weekday clothes kids would want if they didn't have a school uniform.

Not arguing pro or con really (I don't really like em myself), but the money argument isn't a big issue I think.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

3. at my school uniforms were a fundraising scam

Extremely expensive garbage of the same quality found in those crappy "5 T-Shirts for $10" stores around Disneyland.

[Deja Q]

4. For it.

Okay, different colors that the child would want, but with everybody having hissyfits and routs over some idiotic or vulgar slogan, amongst a handful of issues, such uniforms negate the entire melodrama before it gets a chance to start.

Kids are there to learn. When they're 18 they can think what they want. And they may be right.

And schools need to teach what's on the syllabus, without personal bias either.

Are these concepts so difficult?

I may not like a certain nuance in an issue, but I would still teach it without bias or favor. GOOD teachers do that.

School is not a fashion show, either. Especially if fashion is trying to emulate Achy Breaky Tart, aka Noah Cyrus... but that loosely ties in to the outfits that promote vulgar language ("Metal up your *** tour 1987" complete with graphic illustration) or topical claptrap that has no place in a learning environment. Sheesh, over 20 years ago and that toilet drivel was allowed. Lord only knows what's passable these days... I don't want to know.

Even in college, my typography instructor told one of the students NOT to use topical subjects for clients unless the student knows the client to such an extent that using such concepts wouldn't have him fired on the spot...

[Dulcinea]

190. Same here.

Once kids get into the corporate/working world, they'll be expected to dress a certain way. What you wear on your own time is a different story. How are school uniforms any different?

School uniforms have become a necessity in some places because it's the only way they can combat girls dressed like junior sluts and boys with their pants hanging off their butts (DUMBEST STYLE EVER!)

[gtar100]

238. Sounds rather hostile and authoritarian

"When they're 18 they can think what they want."

Wow. Under such a system, would they even know how?

"And schools need to teach what's on the syllabus, without personal bias either."

Impossible to teach without bias. However, it's possible to teach perspective and to view subjects from different biases.

Having a few teenagers who have gone through high school, I can tell you that kids today are smart enough to know when adults are all about "control" through hostility and distrust. If your intent is to educate and liberate children from the tyranny of ignorance, at what point do you trust them to be who they are? If they have no place to discover that, it won't magically happen at 18 or any other age.

[rwheeler31]

5. Uniforms are cheap. Fashion for kids is very expensive.

[Smarmie Doofus]

6. They're a net plus in inner city urban schools.

I base that on no scientific data whatsoever, but on observation.

There are drawbacks... as you point out; and it might not be appropriate everywhere. But in inner city ( mostly working poor families) it is a net plus. Creates a sense of order and conveys the idea that school... like the workplace... is not a playground and needs to be taken seriously.

[rucky]

46. +1 from my experience teaching in an urban school

with "uniforms" (white shirt, blue pants - make it work any way you can)

[mitchtv]

7. I wore them for 12 years

LOOK WHAT IT DID FOR ME

[onehandle]

8. Other than pissed off kids, there is no down side.

All of the benefits are covered in this thread.

[TexasProgresive]

45. Since they tend to be pissed off- there is no down side. nt

[seabeyond]

9. ended up costing me more. the clothes for school, and then clothes for home

paid more.

i have never spent much on kids clothes. not over ten for any tshirt. jeans and tennies. when i had to buy school uniforms, 5 shirts, two or three pants, loafer type shoes and then clothes for home i paid a lot more that year. and i have always had hand me downs for kids so like this year i barely bought clothes for school

[Odin2005]

10. I am firmly against it. It's creepy and totalitarian.

And good luck trying to get autistic students with sensory sensitivities to wear cheap uniforms with polyester in them.

[vadawg]

14. and what percentage of students would this be, i think uniforms can be good or bad

but at least it means that there are less distractions in the school, it takes away a lot of the competing to wear the worst outfit that seems to be the norm today...

[Smarmie Doofus]

28. Hmm... some autistic kids LOVE uniforms.

Probably for the same reasons they tend to like schedule, order, routine: helps them to internalize a sense of security that is otherwise hard for them to find in the environment.

edit to add: It also helps them to 'fit-in' in a general ed setting in which their tics and eccentricities tend to make them stand out.

[Odin2005]

50. Interesting! I didn't know that!

All I know is that this autistic would have HATED them! :hi:

[Smarmie Doofus]

62. Then uniforms would be a BAD idea for you.

Lots of neurotypicals would hate them also.

[Odin2005]

63. LOL, I'd be scratching and itching myself raw!

I HATE polyester! :puke:

[Smarmie Doofus]

71. Most people do. I happen to like it.... only because

one can get away without ironing dress shirts. I hate ironing more than I hate polyester.

Back to uniforms: one class of autistic boys I taught ( Social Studies, 1 period per day, teenagers) *chose* to wear the school uniform of the general ed school in which we were housed. I mean all eight of them; our participation was voluntary. They, for the most part , were actually *enthusiastic* about the code; the general ed kids complied reluctantly. ( Maybe a lot of them like it also but it wasn't cool to say so.)

BTW... can't dress codes include comfortable materials? Cotton, etc. ( I do understand that a lot of folks have sensory issues and they have to be taken into account).

[Stargazer09]

153. I agree

My son isn't autistic, but he craves security and order, and he would definitely enjoy having uniforms if they were required here.

In most schools, they don't really care where you get the uniforms, as long as they are the correct colors. Where we lived, they told us blue or khaki pants/shorts/skirts with dark green or white polo shirts (short or long sleeves). It wouldn't be difficult to find shirts that would be non-irritating for those kids who are sensitive to tags and scratchy fabrics.

[Smarmie Doofus]

193. We keep saying "uniforms" but there is also a thing called "dress code"...

>>>>In most schools, they don't really care where you get the uniforms, as long as they are the correct colors. Where we lived, they told us blue or khaki pants/shorts/skirts with>>>>

... which is closer to what you describe.. In HS we ( boys) had to wear jackets and ties. Colors and types were pretty much up to us except 'no denim, and of course, no sneakers.

As a parent now I think I'd prefer the full uniform. Probably better for the kids also. In HS it became a preoccupation to see how far you could push the code before getting into trouble. Also some kids had $$$ ties and jackets, others cheap stuff.

A full scale uniform would prevent all that and let kids concentrate on school, while IN school .

Let them obsess about style and status after 3 pm...... which I can guarrantee you they will.

[Odin2005]

197. Yes, I don't mind dress codes, it's uniforms I don't like.

Standards of clothing is perfectly fine with me, uniformity is not, the later just seems disturbing.

[Stargazer09]

215. True...

The school district in Louisiana called the clothes uniforms, since they were sold as such by the local stores (and Lands' End). Basically the same as a fairly strict dress code, if you will. The kids did have some choices, such as choosing between navy blue or khaki bottoms or between white or dark green collared shirts, but not every child wore the exact same combination every single day.

I thought that it made life much simpler for everyone. The kids didn't have to obsess over school clothes, the teachers weren't distracted from teaching due to their students wearing inappropriate clothing, and the parents didn't go broke buying new outfits for their kids whenever the styles changed.

I wish that the schools where we live now would go to uniforms, but it won't happen. So far, my kids are doing okay with what they have, but I'm dreading sending my oldest daughter to middle school in a couple of years. It's going to be hard to find stylish teenage girl clothes for a girl who will probably be over 6' tall by then.

[Justitia]

11. I wore them for some of my school years, it was good, esp for us poor kids.

First - they were easy. You never had to think about what you were going to wear - done!

Second - we had no money and my "street clothes" reflected that. At least in school I didn't feel so conspicuous (except for my shoes).

And they were cheaper than regular clothes for my mom. They actually weren't bad looking either.

[Karia]

12. Love 'em

Each public school here has a different "uniform" that generally consists of a polo shirt in a particular color and pants/shirt/jumper in a particular color; a few schools require button-down shirts instead of polos. No logo allowed, but otherwise we are free to buy at Gap, Target, Salvation Army, gymboree, TCP, or wherever. Items outgrown while still in usable condition can be donated to the school to be discreetly given to kids in need, or saved for the annual PTA uniform exchange. One of the school's themes is "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle" & uniform exchanges are sometimes cited as an example.

Most of the advantages to uniforms have already been mentioned, but here are a few more:
*Because each school requires a different (but basic) color combination, bus drivers and crossing guards can easily determine which kid belongs where.
*The uniform consists of basic separates that can be worn with all kinds of other things.
*The student body is very diverse economically, racially and ethnically. The uniform helps to blur those distinctions and visually bring a sense of community.

[Karia]

18. And I should add

that my daughter's school really does feel like a community, of teachers, staff, students and families. Of course the main credit goes to the principal, teachers, and staff, but the uniforms help too.

By the way, this is an urban school that is considered a failure by NCLB but our daughter is getting an outstanding education.

[Arkana]

13. I don't particularly like it--mainly because I don't like being told what I can and can't wear.

[blueamy66]

89. But, as a child, weren't you told

what to do and what not to do in all areas of your life?

[MattBaggins]

128. I was and it was wrong

I balance that issue and guide my daughters as much as possible. I try at all costs to avoid "cause I said so". Doesn't always work but with clothes they have a choice between dresses, slacks and jeans. I set boundaries but let them the proper amount of choice.

Bad parents who can't figure out that setting boundaries and steering your child to learn to make good decisions is the best way to raise them, are the ones that tend to support uniforms.

[blueamy66]

129. Wow, so since my parents

supported uniforms, they were bad and they couldn't set boundaries?

That's a pretty broad brush you got there.

[MattBaggins]

135. No broader than

the uniforms are the answer to all our problems and everyone should be forced to dress their kids in them.

I am all for a voluntary school uniform.

I sent my girls to a local catholic school for pre-school because they had a really good program. That Catholic School has kids who wear uniforms and others that come in regular clothes as long as they are appropriate. They leave the choice to the parents. Yes they leave the "choice" to the parents. Uniform and non-uniform clothing in the same school, and everyone is happy.

[blueamy66]

155. I never stated that uniforms are the answer to all of

our problems. I just think it's a great idea.

FWIW...I grew up okay...even though my parents did a such a bad job. Darn them! I even graduated from college. Who coulda known?

[Stargazer09]

158. That's a pretty broad brush you are using

I'm far from a "bad parent," and I fully support school uniforms.

[Warpy]

15. Only if they did them right

Jeans and shirts with no writing on them for both sexes. Cheap and durable. No goddamned dresses to curtail girls' activity.

They can tramp up when they get home.

[MattBaggins]

112. No dresses?

And for those folks that feel dresses are the best attire for their girls?

[Warpy]

114. Tough shit

They're completely inappropriate on a playground for younger girls and invite sexual harassment in older girls.

Free your daughters, people.

[MattBaggins]

121. My youngest daughter wants to wear dresses

my oldest daughter loves slacks and will not wear jeans at any cost. She hates them with a passion. My daughters are quite "free" thank you very much. My wife and I set the boundaries but they can choose what they wear. One loves dresses and the other slacks. They are both happy well adjusted little girls who just happen to like different clothes.

If it's all right with you; I can raise my girls just fine. They can be successful happy women who wear dresses and slacks if they want. Forcing them to wear jeans has absolutely nothing to do with their development as free thinking human beings.

[Warpy]

126. So find a school without uniforms

My suggestion was for schools that have decided to enforce a uniform.

The dresses can be saved for parties and church. Or you can find a school without uniforms.

[MattBaggins]

132. I do have a school without unforms

I want to keep it that way. People are suggesting public schools do this. I am suggesting they go to hell as politely as possible. If my school tried to enact such a idiotic policy I would personally dress my kids as normal and walk them to school myself right to the classroom everyday and politely let the teacher or administrator know I intended for them to stay in class with the clothes I dressed them in. I would let the principal know that I have no intention of making my kids wear a uniform.

My kids are taught that if they talk back to the teacher, refuse to listen, throw tantrums, or are mean to other kids they will be in a world of trouble. For the most part I am a big fan of stressing the fact that the classroom is the teachers domain; however, dressing them is my domain.

[Warpy]

137. Then why are you so bent out of shape over this?

I mean, really.

My suggestion was practical and affordable.

[MattBaggins]

162. I am bent out of shape

because there are actually people out there who really want to do this kind of crap.

There are domestic terrorists out there like Arne Duncan who want to privatize schools so their buddies can skim money off the top. So they can pay teachers less and have some CEO put those "savings" in their own pocket. The so called "public" charter school folks have the same mentality as the "uniforms" will solve societies problems.

We have in this very thread seen all the Asia worshipers who always bring up Japan and Korea as some great models for the robotification of our kids, yet won't mention China. They know if they said "hey look the Chinese kids all wear uniforms to school"; the idea would go over like a lead balloon. Sorry but I am adamant about not becoming like China. We already have Walmart, Republicans, DLCers and idiots like Arne Duncan happily pushing us in that direction.

Yes this is just a harmless internet board; but there are people out ehre actually pushing for this kind of crap. I am just flabbergasted at the number of authoritarians and down right Marxists who think that discussions of stripping away one of the last parental rights I have, is just fine and dandy and not to get worked up over it.

I don't want Walmart in my school nor do I want their uniform culture.

As many people have said, most of us have to wear uniforms anyway; so let's start our kids off young. How about if we use that as the biggest reason for not doing it. Let the kids have a few years before they get to go off to the corporate meatgrinder making someone else rich and happy. Let's not bring our kids up to be good little workers like they do in Asia.

[Generic Other]

216. Bravo! Your last paragraph says it all.

You dig right to the heart of why we spend billions on treating depression, ADHD, and a multitude of other psychiatric disorders people in this country struggle with daily. We are told that we must not be different, we must not stick out, we must be like the people of the Massachusetts Bay Colony dressed in severe black uniformity or we are labeled heretics. The dissenters will be shamed and displayed in the stocks for their unconventional thinking. Or worse, treated like the people Salem Village.

Of course, say the believers, no real American would object to uniforms in the public schools. No one would object to dressing their kids up in polyester pre-junior league leisure suits and Nikes that someone is paid ten cents an hour to make. Of course not. Since when did the people who make the rules decide e pluribus unim for public schools required some sort of white suburban middle-class Rotary Club look a for every American kid anyway? To prepare them to dress like corporates? No wonder black kids in America adopt prison fashions!

It is a strange idea to think that if we can make all the kids look the same, we will make the world a better place to live and all our problems will be solved. Then we don't have to do or think at all. Just click our heels. Ho ho hi ho...off to work we go...

Will dressing in polo and khaki make the kids easier to control? Undoubtedly. And when they are adults, they will still need to be controlled or to control others or they will not be satisfied. That is the state of this country right now.

But I would rather not go to Brave New World Middle School when Coventry is just down the street and seems so very very close. And I hear we don't have to wear uniforms there. So I say, let the betas pioneer the school uniforms without us. Trust me. Your daughters will do just fine in Coventry with the rest of the alphas.

[Stargazer09]

160. I feel sorry for your kids

You are willing to raise them to think that their teachers and principals are their enemies, simply because you don't believe in a dress code or school uniform policy.

You will also be forcing your children to stand out from their peers, in a negative way, simply because their parent doesn't like school uniforms. Would you really do that to them? Subject them to ridicule over clothing, of all things?

[MattBaggins]

166. No way no how

I am not going to take such a stupid accusation and let it stand. I am in no way teaching my kids that teachers are an enemy.

I am very clear to my kids that they are to respect the teachers. I tell my oldest; on at least a weekly basis that it is too bad if the teachers made her do something she didn't want to do. She has to do what the teacher tells her to do in school; however, there are limits. I am ultimately the parent and there are areas where my word trumps that of the teacher. I would in every possible situation not confront the teacher in front of the child but I do make clear to my kids that I have certain rules that supercede that of the teacher.

I even said in a prior thread that my daughter's class was told they could have a pajama party last week. I told her I was not going to allow her to leave the house with pajamas on. That right there shows that I'm actually a fan of a good dress code. It is also where I had to set those boundaries and let my daughter know that I ultimately have the say what she wears to school; and that pajamas are not appropriate attire. The nice thing about is that other parents felt the same way and some kids got to wear pajamas and some didn't; but I THE PARENT was the one to explain to my child what she could wear to school.

My kid is many times going to have to "stand" out as different. There is nothing wrong with that. She will survive and learn hopefully, to except when others stand out. See while I support many social programs such as public schools and public health care; I am not a Marxists that needs to protect my kids from "standing out" by making everyone wear a uniform. I embrace standing out.

[Stargazer09]

169. It's not a stupid accusation

You are acting just like those stupid parents who don't like the fact that their child's teacher gave them a bad grade, so they try to get the teacher fired.

You stated that you are willing to march your kid to school and demand that your child be taught, even though your child isn't complying with the school's policy on clothing. In other words, you are teaching your child that it's okay to ignore school policies that you don't agree with.

If there's a problem with a school policy, and you don't agree with it, then you need to take your grievances to the school board. Most school policies are in place for a reason, and if you don't agree with them, then YOU need to deal with it through the proper channels. Don't use your child as a symbol of your personal distaste about the dress code. All that does is inflict stress upon your child.

The school uniform issue is completely different from the pajama party issue. Nobody was requiring your child to wear pajamas, although it sounded like your child missed out on some fun at school over your problem with the concept.

[MattBaggins]

176. Let me restate that then

I would fight it at the school board first. If they still made the policy i would write the board, principal and superintendent notifying them that I had no intention of following the policy. I would send my child to school dressed in the clothes I paid money for. That put s the ball in their court. The question would be; would they actually send her home? If they did that is the point I would march her back to school and politely ask to see the principal and restate my intentions. No trying to get anyone fired just state I am not going to follow the policy. I'm sorry but sometimes it's OK to civilly disobey.

Now if you think that is the same as trying to get a teacher fired for a bad grade, I guess we don't have the same starting reference frames.

[Generic Other]

217. The "uniform" poll tax for education is worth disobeying in my opinion

And I'm an educator.

[nadinbrzezinski]

210. I am not a Marxists that needs to protect my kids from "standing out"

Now I know more about you than I wanted to.

1.- You have NO FUCKING CLUE what marxism is, beyond the cartoon... FEAR OF SOCIALISTS RUN FER THEM HILLS, PROTECT WOMEN AND CHILDREN!!!!!!!!! Funny since you served in a very SOCIALIST institution and perhaps are still getting health care from a very socialist one...

2.- And you have no clue how marketeers make you and your kids chose your wares.

[Generic Other]

218. The goodwill and st vincent's market to my family secondhand

so the money flows down not up. I see the uniform movement as being about "marketing" the middle class desire to be part of the leisure class and not be seen as part of the working class.

I think it is unfair to jump on the poster for his comment on Marxism. I agree, the issue is not about Marxist ideology as you say, but the images we all have ingrained in our heads are images of Soviet and Chinese children dressed this way. Ironically, in this country we are as you rightly observe creating model capitalists using the same uniforms.

That is what is so twisted. It's threads like this one that make me wonder if any party represents the interests of the "other" at all.

BTW, I always like reading threads you post.

[nadinbrzezinski]

219. Actually we are not creating model capitalists using

those uniforms. Corporations usually do not like the uniforms (unless they can get a piece of the pie, See Abercrombie and Finch a few years ago). and the reason for that is that it takes the kids out of the logos, fashion, et al for six to eight hours of the day.

Hell, our kids are shown TV in their schools, educational TV supposedly, produced by insert corp here.

The uniforms are the least of our problems, and yes I will make an argument that indeed if conceived correctly they could help break the consumerist instinct present in the modern US.

And I did jump on the poster because I get tired of this DAMN MARXISTS... most Americans hear the name Karl Marx and have a visceral reaction, propaganda partly, willful ignorance partly. Nor would they understand that neither the USSR, or modern China are Marxist... (Nor are we capitalist either, but that takes me into my other favorite discussion on how BOTH are utopias, and as utopias, well they never come to be)

[Generic Other]

220. Call it being "groomed" to serve the ruling class

I agree with you that we should do everything we can to resist the conditioning. Consumerism is a disease. So is being a control freak. I agree with Matt Baggins suggestion that those who want uniforms should wear them. Those who want to choose other alternatives should be free to do so. This is America. The Bill of Rights is in place to protect the rights of the minority.

I don't want my kids to be "groomed" by anyone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

223. Uniforms are the least of your problems

truly.

Some years back while in College I took a few courses where we deconstructed (to use a term no longer in vogue) adds, tv programs and a few other things. Your kids are being groomed, 24\7, and so are you.

Unless you completely remove yourself from the media world we live in, and that includes the internet, it is almost impossible.

Having taken those courses is a good, albeit not 100% effective defense mechanism.

Nor is this the first time in human history. All cultures have aspects of this programing, for example the Medieval Church is incredible, if you can read the code. Well you cannot read that code, most people can't but there is a code in CNN for example, or the Office, or wally mart, or the books we read, the magazines we thumb through at the dentist. It is all over...

Like readying The End of Overeating where readying menus changes for ever, taking a course in marketing changes how you read a commercial, or see a movie (oh the product placement is just amazing) or even watch the news.

Uniforms are actually anathema for these people, because they take the logos away as well as the distraction provided by the marketing. Why, as I said, the corps hate them.

[Generic Other]

225. I don't wear logos either...I really try to resist being controlled

I avoid TV entirely. I ignore ads. I don't buy what is trendy until someone else has thrown it away. I make more things than I buy. I don't have brand preferences of any sort. I have zero fidelity to any products. Okay, I take that back. I am unable to resist fair trade chocolate or fair trade pot. LOL.

[nadinbrzezinski]

232. So you do more than most, but you're still part of the culture

and that is the bloody point.

[defendandprotect]

16. No -- this is a right wing concept --- in fact, wouldn't the world be better off if all the uniform

manufacturers went out of business?

Especially those making military uniforms?

:evilgrin:

[vadawg]

19. not really you think people would stop killing each other on masse if they didnt have uniforms

seems that every group/society has a uniform of some sort from the grungiest hippy, to the polished preppy, to the rough redneck to the urban cowboy.

[defendandprotect]

143. I think it would make it more difficult . . .

the "uniforms" that make the most difference as to being singled out are those

that can't be changed -- gender/female -- color -- race

and it is upon those differences that we still have organized war.

[anonymous171]

21. Business suits are corporate uniforms. The rich wear expensive designer shit to denote their status

So they also wear a uniform. Uniforms exist all throughout society.

[defendandprotect]

140. and now orthodox BLACK . . . would like to see those go . ..but's it's a male uniform ...

in general --

And, these days, it is only the executives wearing the suits --

However, I haven't heard war declared on men in suits - so far!!

If you think about it, the first unchangeable "uniform" that people wear is their

gender and their color -- often that's enough for war on them!

[stlsaxman]

53. As Frank Zappa once said- "Everyone in this room is wearing a uniform and don't kid yourself".

[defendandprotect]

145. Never heard that before ....

can you elaborate on how he meant that?

"All the world is a stage and all the players upon it playing roles?"

or something different?

Natural, unchangeable identities -- race, color, gender?

[DemBones DemBones]

222. Especially those who pride themselves on

their individuality. Rebels just wear different uniforms from those they disdain as conformists. Nobody is unique.

[Synicus Maximus]

75. People went around for thousands of years happily killing each

other without uniforms.

[defendandprotect]

147. Crusaders and others wore similar armor, had similar weapons . . .

but there were efforts to identify them -- markings, etal?

So -- I think there is always an attempt to make clear who's on which side?

[naaman fletcher]

97. Communist China was right-wing?

I seem to recall a few hundred million people all wearing the same uniform.

[defendandprotect]

151. That's true . . .

but weren't they our enemies?

I don't know, maybe you can look at Garden of Eden and people wearing fig leaves for

cover and say those were uniforms?

At some point, the Native Americans were all dressed alike in buckskin -- /????

[Cleita]

148. Wanna know why military uniforms came into being?

Back in the old days they wore any old armor and ended up killing each other as much as they did the enemy. The Spartans thought up the brilliant idea of their warriors wearing red tunics. First it wouldn't show the blood, so it would be less scary, but they also knew each other from enemy. They also had special shields with the V on them.

[certainot]

249. most australian kids wore, wear uniforms

the more private uppity ones had hats and ties etc., some were easier going.....

but it was more about what was taught and how and everyone knew it was just for school.

the whole concept of everyone having to go to school is right wing - simple general clothing for all, with variations, can reduce the right wing fashion/consumer bondage that goes on all over the country.

maybe if everyone had to wear uniforms in school they'd be less interested in wearing them when they got out.

[Midwestern Democrat]

17. I'm not in favor of them for the same reason I don't favor home

schooling or all girls/all boys schools - I think school is a socializational as well as an educational experience - and I think uniforms diminish the socializational aspect of schools - uniforms are an artifice that doesn't exist - for the most part - in the outside world.

[vadawg]

22. you do realise that the outside world is full of uniforms, from the cops, fire, nurses

guy in best buy, chick in dunkin donuts, to the dude in the suit, to the metro bus driver,

[defendandprotect]

152. and right now the scariest uniforms are being worn by our police -- who look more

like Gestapo dressed for war --

But there are "uniforms" such as nurses which make people feel confidence rather

than fear -- though I think doctors and nurses have been changed out of the white garb

recently/????

[Synicus Maximus]

79. I disagree. Every social group in the outside world has its own

uniform. I typically would not ware a three piece suit to a bikers bar or my leathers to a business meeting. Could I do these things? Sure. Would I be accepted? I don't think so.

[anonymous171]

20. I am all for it, as long as they are produced by the government and are given free of charge

to all students. Anything else is stupid. Dress codes are horrendously complicated and almost impossible to enforce. Uniforms are superior.

[Cleita]

206. There you go a sensible solution to how to pay for it.

:thumbsup:

I worked in a cafeteria once, when I was in college. The uniforms were supplied by the company and they laundered them for us as well. When we went to work, we picked a clean uniform and apron off the rack in our size. At the end of the shift, they were dumped in the laundry to be washed because by that time there was a lot of gravy and other stains on them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. I grew up wearing a school uniform

As a teen I hated the damn things, but these days I see how good they were.

They preserved my every day clothes... they were cheaper than the day to day clothes... oh and that creativity side... melarkey. kids are still creative, just in different ways.

[GoCubsGo]

48. Me, too.

I went to a Catholic school during grades 1-9. Yeah, the uniforms were a bit stifling, but there were still plenty of ways one could express themselves. We could do so with our socks, jewelry, hair styles and accessories, shoes... Not to mention the expression through things like writing and artwork. Isn't that where one's real expressions lie anyway?

I look at the "uniforms" kids are wearing today, and wish that was what we got to wear. Polo shirts and khakis? Girls wearing slacks? My grade school uniform was a hideous wool jumper with a pleated skirt. I only had one that I had to wear day in and day out, and had to be dry-cleaned. At least I could change the blouse every day. We also had to wear a stupid "tie." At least the skirt was long enough that I could wear a pair of shorts underneath. If that was the sort of uniform public schools were considering, I'd be against them. But, the ones that are being worn or proposed now...I don't consider those to even be "uniforms", considering what I had to wear.

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. I went to two private Jewish schools in Mexico

and the first set of uniforms was kind of like the kids wear today. Pants, skirts, with square patterns for girls, and shirts, with a jacket. Then they moved to another uniform where they wanted to "save some money" to parents. So it was a school shirt, a school jacket and... jeans. Well the well to do kids had that issue of they bought designer jeans. Now ironically, now i know it is due to other issues apart of the knee surgeries, cotton made my skin itch... bad. So I got an exception, and was able to wear twill. I say ironically because complaint about the polyester, when cotton can be just as bad. Oh and these days I wear jeans. I got over it.

My last year of HS I went to a school with no uniform... and lord I missed the freedom of not having to think twice what I was wearing to class next morning.

[mamaleah]

113. It's nice not having to spend an extra hour trying to get the kids dressed.

And it's cheaper in the long run.

And why does school need to be a fashion show anyway?

[MattBaggins]

118. Doesn't have to be a fashion show

nor do we have to have public schools with mandatory uniforms. How about a voluntary uniform system?

I can really appreciate how having uniforms would make it so much easier to dress the kids in the morning. I am sure you would agree with me that no one is being prevented from buying a bunch of matching pants and shirts and dressing their children the same way every day. Aren't all the parents free to do that? So don't all the parents who wish uniforms for the kids have the freedom to dress them that way? Aren't all the people without kids free to not concern themselves with the issue?

All the needed freedoms are already in place. Why take mine away? I am really confused on this. I have never proposed to take away another parents right to dress their kids as they see fit. Why would others even conceive that is OK to do that to me?

[mamaleah]

123. Uniforms in some districts are about keeping gang violence down.

And it does help financially strapped parents and kids. Nothing is worse than being mocked because you are not wearing the latest Paris Hilton fashion.

[MattBaggins]

136. I am not an expert on the inner city school problems

I must say that up front but from what I do know, with gang violence being often territorial, it is not the best idea to force kids to declare what school they belong to with uniforms. Gangs will still find ways to "identify" be it with the type of shoe, hair cut, jewelry, colored contact lenses. People still know who is who and uniforms won't disguise it. On the extremely long list of things that need to be done to help this country; forcing uniforms on parents is at the very bottom.

I was mocked and tormented in school for being a scrawny nerd both at parochial schools and public schools. Wearing a uniform never saved me. The rich snobs will still be rich snobs and make fun of others. Working on self esteem and punishing the bullies will accomplish more.

People that think we can't stop bullying and violence, so making kids wear uniforms will stop it, are wishing in one hand as the saying goes.

[tallahasseedem]

257. Your experiences in school...

completely explain the tone you take in all your posts.

[Stargazer09]

164. The problem is...

Having a "voluntary" school uniform policy is stupid. What's the point? If it's voluntary, then only certain kids are going to comply with the policy, and they will stand out just as much as they would if they came to school in something wildly inappropriate.

If you don't like school uniforms, then stay in a school district that doesn't require them.

Besides, just because YOU might dress your children appropriately doesn't mean that ALL parents can/will do so.

[MattBaggins]

167. Why couldn't it work

Both my girls went to a local Catholic school for pre-school. That catholic schools had half the kids in uniforms and half in regular clothes. They let the parents choose and the kids do fine. No one "stands out" and picking on people is not tolerated.

If it works fine for a catholic school then it could work for any school. I am in a school that has no uniforms. If they tried to start one I am under no obligation to move. I would use my right to resist the authoritarians and protect my parental rights.

Yes Virginia you can have a voluntary uniform policy. You don't need to use force on others to make the choices you feel are best for your kids. Even in a public school.

[nadinbrzezinski]

168. You know what is so damn fucking hilarious about this?

We all wear uniforms all the time!

Don't believe me... go to to a hospital. What do you think those scrubs are?

Go to an office building... you think it is a coincidence that people wear suits and ties and high heels and appropriate bidness attire.

Go down to the store... clerks are wearing a uniform.

Of course if you take your car to the shop, people ARE wearing a uniform.

Some may be obvious to you, others may not. But while you argue about your freedoms to do this or that, we pretty much already wear uniforms. Even your kids... yes the precious ones that you dress in appropriate clothes. Ironic, but they are already wearing a form of a uniform. What is missing is just the name.

This is what is so damn funny. People do not realize that what we wear IS a uniform that marks where in society we belong and what we do for a living. Some are more obvious than others, that's all... and in the real obvious category are police, fire and EMS, as well as medical. But you are, and I am wearing something that marks our social standing... ain't this a hoot?

[MattBaggins]

170. I actually agree with you on that whole heartedly

but I am just so happy to live in this country where I am free to choose what uniform I and my kids wear. Hell I spent ten years in the Army so I know a bit about uniforms.

I guess on this issue I'm a libertarian extremist.

Extremism in the defense of my clothing choices is no vice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

174. No you don't, that is what is so damn fucking funny

no, it is not the quartermaster telling you what uniform to wear for field day, or in the field, or day uniform or working dress, or dress. It is the fashion industry determining what you put on your kids. Don't believe me? That's fine. You have little choice... to be truly honest.

[MattBaggins]

178. Now you're getting crazy

I have every choice possible available to me in what clothes I put on. The fashion industry isn't deciding squat for me. I make every single choice myself.

I agree with you on the self imposed uniform though. The clothes I choose are in a sense a "uniform" that I use to identify or declare who I am.

Just as I agree that goths are in fact conformists. I used to be one back when I was young.

[nadinbrzezinski]

179. You should read a sociology study or two

into marketing and how we chose what we wear and what we buy.

For the record, this is well known to anybody who's taken more then just a side interest in marketing and anthropology. But that freedom you think you have is purely an illusion.

[MattBaggins]

180. I could read those

and would probably conclude that they were written by pseudo Marxists. I have all power in choosing what I wear.

[nadinbrzezinski]

183. Keep the illusion going

power to the people.

By the way this is news to me... that social science is Marxism.

By the way the marketeers COUNT on you to keep that illusion.

:-)

So go on, keep that illusion, and believe you are free. Whatever trips your trigger.

[MattBaggins]

184. Social Science and Anthropology are not Marxist

but all the hooplah that I am a slave to advertising and can't think for myself; if not Marxist, is at least silly.

So if that system where I am some how a slave to thousands of potential clothing choices is so bad; why shuld I give up what little choice I have and succumb to your decisions as to what I should wear? I just don't fathom how that would be a better idea. My kids are just slaves to what Disney tells them to wear; so that's a good reason to give up all choice and let you or someone else tell me what to dress my them in?

[nadinbrzezinski]

188. Marketeers count on you

thinking it is silly...

:hi:

And it is a multi-billion dollar industry.

:-)

And what you chose to dress them in is guided by those who study your particular demographics, and that of your kids and KNOW you better than you know yourself.

You want to truly be free? This is the first step. To know how we are manipulated from day to day.

And yes, there are reams of studies, and reams of internal reports to reams of corporations that know you better than you know yourself. In fact many of them don't like school uniforms... and there is a reason for it. Care to connect them dots?

No I don't expect you to connect them... so be free... live in that delusion. Billions of dollars are in play and as long as millions of others believe like you do... well then Hannah Montana is this year's hot item... and tomorrow it will be something else. The idea is to keep you in play. Oh and perhaps you did not get the Hannah Montana, but some other shiny bauble for sure.

And all this is done through popular media and other means.

Oh and you can believe it is silly, but billions are in play...

So it is not the quartermaster, but somebody is making those decisions... and your hard hard headnessness and very "American" culture of consumption is the driver of the current economy... and those who have billions at stake COUNT on you and millions like you NOT figuring this out.

[MattBaggins]

191. Let me get my tin foil

and then maybe we can turn over all our buying decisions to some central planners. They can decide our clothes, TV choices and even design a two stroke engine automobile we can all wait 10 years to get.

Hmm just who should I go to in deciding what I actually need and should buy?

[nadinbrzezinski]

201. It is not tinfoil

it is market research.

Use the google and find out.

Or go to your local college and see if they offer a course in I don't know MARKETING.

[Hippo_Tron]

246. By that logic, the music industry is choosing what music I listen to

Which to a certain extent is definitely true. However, there is enough variety that people still feel they have a choice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

250. And that is part of the magic, you feel you have choice

What is sad is that at one point, in the early age of Rock n'Roll, there was a rebellion, all them pirate radio stations. But all that has been coopted, though some of the illusion remains, and some is not illusion... if you go for the absolute indie labels on the nets. Why they want to control them.

[Hippo_Tron]

255. I listen to some indie music for sure, but...

The mainstream produces far more music than I could ever possibly listen to. I suppose if I were more into music I might feel differently.

[nadinbrzezinski]

256. Well the bands I like are OLD

as in ancient... as in part of that pirate radio movement... yes if kids saw my IPOD they'd scratch heads...

But one of my history instructors over 20 years ago pointed to the issues of control, which by the way has spread to fiction too. As well as other popular culture. The reason why a lot of things feel ahem formulaic is because well... they are.

[Stargazer09]

173. Well, you do whatever you want

Pre-school is NOT high school, or even middle school. A voluntary uniform policy would never work once kids become fashion conscious.

You could use your right to protest all you want, but my feeling is that you'd lose that battle if your school went to mandatory uniforms.

Sounds like you have some serious problems. Have a good day.

[MattBaggins]

182. I know you said good day which indicates a desire to end discussion

but I must say that believing that I can raise my kids to be decent people without someone else dictating to me what they should wear, is not a "serious problem"

[defendandprotect]

154. I also wore them . . .

in Catholic elementary school --

most of us hated them -- and it got really funny later when girls were moving the

hemlines up by a foot and more!

Also loved those see-through nylon blouses!!

It kept girls in skirts which I don't think anyone sees as a good idea any longer for

daughters who are more active. Tough on the knees!!

:)

[voc]

24. Uniforms stifle expression.

Just like our country does.

[anonymous171]

25. Ah yeah, kids need to be able to express themselves through the corporate logos on their clothing

I forgot about that one. I was under the delusion that students were supposed to be expressing themselves by actually doing things like dancing or writing (you know, useful stuff.) But then I read your post and remembered how valuable clothing-based expression is. Thanks for setting me straight on that one.

[Hippo_Tron]

31. Fashion is a form of expression and fashion design is an art form

Like pretty much everything else in our society it has indeed been heavily corporatized.

On the other hand I don't think making kids wear uniforms between the hours of 8am and 3pm is going to permanently stifle their creativity.

[pipi_k]

59. Just wondering what expression uniforms stifle?

Imagination? Language? Math skills?

Are kids less likely to perform well in school because they're wearing uniforms?


Or do uniforms stifle kids' "rights" to express themselves through their clothing? If that's the case, I have little sympathy. School isn't about a fashion show. It's a place to learn, first of all, and second, it's a place to develop social skills. None of that requires being able to wear the latest fashions, as far as I can see.


(edited for misplaced word)

[knitter4democracy]

254. Not at all.

Kids still find ways to express themselves. Trust me--you can never entirely stifle that.

[Hippo_Tron]

26. I think it's a minor issue either way

I'm sure they make life easier for moms with pre-teen daughters. I'm also sure that they stifle kids' ability to express themselves.

But honestly I doubt they have a whole lot of lasting impact on kids' overall educational experience one way or another.

[anonymous171]

27. The whole "stifling expression" argument is pretty insignificant as well

School Uniforms alone have had little effect on violence within the student body. However, school uniforms coupled with other reforms (more after school programs, for example) can do wonders.

[Hippo_Tron]

32. As I posted in response to your other post

I don't think stifling their creativity a bit between the hours of 8am and 3pm Mondays through Fridays is a huge deal.

[anonymous171]

36. Me neither. My primary concern with uniforms is cost

I would prefer it if the uniforms were bought by the school and given to the student free of charge, rather than forcing the students to buy their uniforms from private clothing manufacturers who jack up the price because they know the students are being forced to buy their product.

[Hippo_Tron]

38. I agree, but as I said I think it's a minor issue either way

This is one of those few things where I think it's better to leave it up to the individual school district. If the district is in a position to provide the uniforms free of charge then by all means they should be free to do so. If they aren't in a position and they would be expensive to parents then maybe they shouldn't have uniforms.

[Stargazer09]

165. Where we lived

The school district didn't care where we bought the uniforms. Hand-me-downs were perfectly acceptable, as long as they were still intact.

Most of the stores in town competed for business by offering the best prices on school uniforms, so they were much, much cheaper than normal clothes.

[naaman fletcher]

203. the uniforms I buy for my kids who go to catholic school..

...are a complete and total ripoff, as you fear. But I think I still come out ahead financially simply because I have to buy so few other clothes. And, it's not a fight getting kids dressed. They simply wear their uniform rather than worrying about where some particular shirt is.

I went to public school and I remember all the time what clothes I wore being a significant part of my day, and the horrible feeling when you get to school and you think you have worn something that you should have. I know that society shouldn't be that way, but it is.

Uniforms are great.


That being said, I have chosen to send my kids to a school where there are uniforms, that does not mean I want to force my preference on anyone else.

[20score]

29. Hate them.

A lot.

And after being a single parent for ten years, hate them even more.

[Bucky]

30. Just don't dress 'em like sailors. At my school we have a strict dress code instead.

Students can only wear white or black shirts, no logos bigger than 2 inches wide, and pants can only be khaki or black. On casual Friday we toss out the color requirements. It's bland, which is the point of a dress code, without being uniformish.

[KittyWampus]

94. Thanks for drawing a distinction between "uniform" and "dress code".

[nadinbrzezinski]

177. Actually that is a uniform

:-)

[20score]

33. To me it's another manifestation of fear that is so prevalent in our country.

[defendandprotect]

157. Yes, perhaps the motivation is more important -- ???

[Frau Bauer]

34. Uniforms

I think that the way you dress is much like speech...you should have the right to express yourself in whatever way you want.

[Onceuponalife]

35. I'm all for them

I used to be against them but now at an older age I can look back and see that I was wrong. In some parts of the country certain colors can spark gang violence, and poor kids are taunted and made fun of for wearing certain types of clothes. Kids can express their individuality after school. Uniforms are egalitarian, I don't really see any downside to them.

[Joe the Liberal]

37. I support school uniforms in public schools......

it eliminates the need for a dress code and all the benefits you listed are a plus. I believe the benefits are far greater than the negatives.

[Catshrink]

76. I am so sick of dress code issues...

Do I really care if the girls' straps are "two fingers" wide? Or how much cleavage is too much cleavage? Or whether the boys' boxers are showing because they wear their pants so low? Then there are the logos: no beer, booze, etc., or violence. I'm suppsed to be monitoring this and teaching and doing so many other things. When I dress code a student, the student gets pissed, the office has to deal with finding a shirt to lend, etc. I would really like not dealing with it. But, if I don't and an admin walks in and sees a violation, I'm spoken to about it.

By all means, uniforms! Parents either don't monitor what their kids wear to school or the kids change out once they leave the house.

[pennylane100]

39. Wore them all my school life, including the mandatory hat with school badge.

It was considered an honor, not by me, and as punishment you were banned for a week from wearing them.
The week I was banned, I told my mother that as an achievement award, I could pick my own clothes.

[RadicalGeek]

40. I think it can be a good idea

At my Alma Mater, which is likely %85-90 African American, I think that the styles reflect a certain attitude that is not conducive to education.

I've spoken up for either school uniforms or a sorta business casual dress code; khakis, with belts and polo/button down shirts for the boys, and slacks or skirts and blouses for the girls.

[Fumesucker]

41. School Spirit?

:puke:

Sorry, the school spirit concept really turns my stomach. Kids are not at school to learn to cheer on the fucking sports team.

When they start giving out letter jackets for the chess team and the debate team I might reconsider.

[magdalena]

72. While I share your sentiments on school spirit

my alma mater does indeed give out letters for band, choir, drama, math, debate, and just about any other extracurricular. I lettered in band and soccer myself.

[Fumesucker]

Good for them, that's rather unusual in my experience..

Marching band not so much but math, debate and so forth, never seen it around here.

[verges]

134. When I was in school--

Late 80s, you could letter in debate.

[glen123098]

42. Hitler liked school uniforms

;-)

[rucky]

47. Godwin has arrived!

Glad you could make it. Welcome to DU :toast:

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. And it shows the ingoramus in the US

School uniforms are COMMON around the world. Not having them is the exception.

Aren't you amazed by this Rucky? I'm not but hey. I guess Hitler also left his print in Mexico where I grew up... (and public schools had uniforms, as well as most private schools), England, same dea, France, yep, same, in fact all of Europe, Latin America and other places.

They are just a fact of life.

[MattBaggins]

110. While I look to others for many wonderful ideas, all around the world

one of the greatest things about this country is our lack of school uniforms and our FREEDOM to CHOOSE as RESPONSIBLE parents what is best for OUR kids.

You are free to send your kids to school with the same clothes if you want. No one is forcing your clothing choices. You could buy a bunch of uniform style clothes for your kids and have all those perks that worked for you. I can send my kid to the same school with the clothes that I feel are appropriate.

This is one issue on which I could not care less what the rest of the world does. I stay here in America for a reason.

Isn't America great?

PS not all of Europe requires Uniforms. I know that Germany does not require uniforms.

[nadinbrzezinski]

171. You do have a strange sense of what freedom is or it is not

the Patriot Act is a problem... uniforms are not.

[MattBaggins]

185. au contraire

uniforms and the patriot act go hand in hand.

They both spring from the same fruit.

[Odin2005]

212. Uniforms and the Patriot Act come from the same totalitarian mindset.

The notion that equality requires imposed homogeny is dangerous.

Uniforms and privacy-invading surveillance both send the same message: Individuals and their rights are nothing, the needs of the State are everything, the Individual is merely the servant of the State. Obey, Conform, etc.

[nadinbrzezinski]

234. WOW you really do not know what the patriot act is

Damn I never thought I'd seen a school uniform, used around the world, compared to the USPA or the Enabling Act or any other piece of legislation like that.

Here is a free clue... I read the USPA before it was passed. I presented the damn thing to a Hawaii Legislator who is one of the states refusing to abide by it. And it has nowhere in there school uniforms. Now it was quite the expansion on state powers, but spying equated to school uniforms. You DO TAKE the cake. And in my view you are truly clueless. Not libertarian just clueless.

I'll write congress though, and make sure they add a section on school uniforms... :sarcasm:

[jberryhill]

115. So does the Dalai Lama - orange robes for everybody!

[Behind the Aegis]

43. Go for a burqua-esque uniform for ALL students.

Paid for by the state, just like the education.

[eShirl]

44. School uniforms are for Aerosmith videos and anime. n/t

[we can do it]

49. It Would Have Made My Life Easier & Other Kids Whose Parents Can't Afford Fashion

[fascisthunter]

52. it helps curb consumerism in the class rooms

I wore dresscode and while we didn't like it, I found it was less distracting... not many put so much emphasis on how they looked because we all wore the same dresscode.

[defendandprotect]

161. Perhaps "dress code" is the middle road answer to this???

I just also dislike the idea that in PUBLIC schools kids would be told what to wear --

Certainly, I think girls would be wearing leg coverings so that they can be as active

as boys are --


And I do think that especially in wealthier neighborhoods, fashion gets very costly.

When my daughter when to college, she was always complaining about the huge amounts of

money other students were spending on wardrobe!

[MattBaggins]

54. I have a really great idea

How about if you want your kids to wear uniforms to school; you buy them some, and I'll dress my kids as I see fit. That way we can both be happy; or do you have to have your nose in my business and force your clothing choices on me to be happy?

[MindPilot]

55. Why not go all the way and make them wear a name tag too.

Just like "Jim" at the gas station.

Scratchy shirt, scratchy pants, necktie, wool blazer; I spent most of the time being uncomfortable instead of learning. One of the happiest days of my life as a kid was when I could finally wear jeans to school.

[pipi_k]

56. The shame...the shame...

Kids whose parents can buy them the latest clothing don't know the shame a kid can feel from having to wear hand-me-downs or ill-fitting clothing from the secondhand stores.

As soon as I became aware of "fashion", I lived with that shame.

At least until my senior year of High School (1970), when the dress code was abolished and it became OK to wear jeans and stuff, but even then my clothes weren't quite up to snuff.


So I think that even if there aren't actual "uniforms" for schools, I do think that a uniform LOOK would be a big help for all concerned.

[MattBaggins]

64. This is no reason to force your desires on other parents

Teaching kids self esteem and good manners to others doesn't involve forcing parents to spend money on uniforms. You can put all the kids in uniforms and they will still have cliques. The snobby kids with parents who teach them to look down on others will still exist even if they all wear the same clothes.

I was a scrawny nerd with taped glasses in school. A uniform would have made me a scrawny nerd with taped glasses wearing a uniform while he was stuffed into lockers.

[pipi_k]

68. Yeah, the poor parents...

I mean, we don't want to go around forcing our desires on them, do we, when it makes much more sense to allow the kids to be shamed for what they do or don't wear.

Hey, I was also one of those shy, invisible, geeky type kids in High School, too. I still would have been one. But my pain wouldn't have been compounded by being ashamed of my clothing.


We can't change who kids are, we can't always take away their pain, but we CAN avoid adding to it.

But hey...it's all about the real victims in this story...parents who don't want others forcing their desires on them.

[MattBaggins]

77. School uniforms

won't make kids polite and respectful to one another. They won't stop bullying. They won't build self esteem. They won't stop cliques. They won't stop violence. They won't stop gun shootings.

All they do is add a cost to parents and interfere with responsible parents ability to dress their kids as they see fit.

Again this was very simple. I fully support your right to dress your kids in uniforms for school if you choose to do so. How about you do the same for me and let me dress my kids for school as I see fit?

We can both be happy that way.

[pipi_k]

82. Some points

As I said somewhere upthread, no matter how poor we were growing up, we had our school clothes and our outside clothes and that was how things were.

so the argument about cost isn't valid, IMO.

They don't even have to be "uniforms" as much as, at the very least, some sort of dress code. Jeans are durable. The schools could allow students to wear jeans or dark pants, and plain pullover sweaters for the cold weather, short sleeved shirts in white or tan for the spring.

This type of clothing could do double duty. Kids can wear it to school then go out and play in it afterward.


Like I said before, clothing isn't going to change a lot of social ills, but if we can spare a whole lot of kids the embarrassment of not looking like the other kids...possibly making it easier for them to attend school because they won't feel overwhelming shame...then what's wrong with that?

I think part of being a "responsible parent" does involve thinking about others besides oneself. Children have the right to attend school, and to do it without feeling ashamed of the way they look. Responsible parents recognize that, even if it's not their own kids.

[MattBaggins]

87. The cost issues seems to be based on how you

shop for kids. I agree for you it would not be an added cost. It would be for me. Cost really isn't the biggest issue. My ability to sensibly dress my children without other parents noses in my laundry basket is a big issue.

What dresses are ok under your dress code? You seem to forget the legitimate concern for some orthodox groups who believe girls should wear dresses. You seem to be suggesting more of a code then a uniform. I don't have a problem with a sensible code that is actually enforced but not as restrictive as yours. I see no reason the kids can not wear colored shirts or any number of clothing options.

If the problem is underwear showing, mid riffs exposed, obscene language on clothes just enforce the policy on that.

I just want this straight. If I was to bring my girls to school wearing pink polo shirts when only black or brown is authorized, will they be suspended from school? If yes, then why not leave my girls alone and just suspend the kids with underwear showing.

[blueamy66]

92. I disagree.

Uniforms will stop kids from being bullied because of the clothes they are wearing. They do build self-esteem. I was proud to wear my uniform. I was proud of my school.

Quit with the "cost" argument. I bet my uniform clothes for one year cost $150 total. And they could be worn the next year. No need to go out and buy the "new" fashion every August.

[MattBaggins]

101. I went to schools with uniforms and without

Uniforms do not stop the bullying. Getting bullied for your clothes is getting bullied for being different. You can have the same clothes and still be different. Some kids have snobby parents that teach them to look down on "inferior" people. Unless you have an exact uniform you will still have clothes cliques. If you have a loose code with for example; tan slacks, there will be "fashion tan slacks" and Walmart tan slacks for everyone else.

Not everyone buys the latest and greatest clothes but still have appropriately dressed kids. People can get very nice clothes for a few dollars at second hand shops. you will not have uniforms as cheap as I can buy nice clothes at a yard sale.

I am happy that you had self esteem and pride from your uniform. I think that is great and that is why I would fully support you dressing you own kids in uniforms if you choose. It is a great PERSONAL choice and I am happy you are free to make that choice. Would you extend me the same courtesy in dressing my kids for school?

[blueamy66]

130. Sure. Knock yourself out. Dress your kids however you want.

But I still disagree.

[pipi_k]

146. I don't know if you're disagreeing with me, or someone else, but I do agree

that, at the very least, uniforms WILL stop shaming and bullying of kids based on what they're wearing.

Larger social issues....eh, probably not so much.

But maybe starting with the smaller issues is a good way to eradicate some of the larger social issues...


:)

[blueamy66]

159. Not disagreeing with you.

I'm on the same page as you are.

[merh]

57. Uniforms are great.

They allow kids to be "equal". They get to focus on their school work and not on fashion.

You see, there isn't the concern about who wears what designer label and who is poor and who is rich.

When I was in elementary we wore uniforms. Then I went to public school and was made fun of because I wore hand me downs and couldn't afford to dress like the other kids. I learned about class distinctions the hard way.

[hayu_lol]

61. Uniforms are an answer to many problems...

not the least of which is that the kids would be identified by the school they attend--even when in public going to school or returning home.

Check out Japan for uniforms...they appear to be wash and wear, are extremely neat, and have a small logo showing the school attended. Japanese schoolkids, and I assume Korean kids as well, also clean their own classrooms at the end of the day.

Lets the parents spend money on personal clothes for afterschool and weekend use and separate funds for the uniforms. No way should the schools furnish the uniforms.

Schools/teachers are already buying the supplies that most of us used to furnish when we went to schools(post depression). They shouldn't be doing that.

Uniforms just clearly make sense in the sort of frantic world that we live in today. Partly for the protection of the students before, during, and afterschool, and most certainly for identification to the school when worn out in public. Some of our present troublemakers would have to clean up their act.

[MattBaggins]

65. Hell yes the school should absolutely furnish them

Don't tell me I have to buy them from some private seller that will most likely be the brother in law of the "private administrator" of the so called "public charter" schools everyone wants to set up.

I can dress my children for school all by myself thank you very much.

[merh]

85. The school should not furnish them.

Uniforms are less costly than designer jeans or tops, you also don't have to plan on what to wear the next day taking away that stress or fight over what is or is not appropriate versus what is cool.

As you say, you can dress your children all by yourself.

I do agree, it is wrong for any private store to have the market on where the parents can get the uniforms. There are several retailers here that have them.

And the schools hold special days before the school year begins where they make available free uniforms. Parents donate the uniforms that their kids have outgrown to the school so others can use them.

[MattBaggins]

93. Who said designer

When the uniform is mandated who gets to sell it? I will be forced to buy uniforms from a distributor when I could buy very inexpensive nice looking clothes that are not "designer". I find very nice beautiful clothes at second hand shops and yard sales for dollars. I do a great job getting school clothes for my kids without my neighbors coming along to approve my choices.

If you are going to force me to buy Product A for my kids; then YOU make sure that Product A is cheaper then B through Z. You know all those choices you are taking away from me. All those choices that I as the responsible parent of my kids; not others who are not the parents of my kids, can make

[merh]

98. It would help if you actually read my post.

[nadinbrzezinski]

233. She is into the ME, ME, ME

not realizing that uniforms are the least of our problems. Nor does she realize that these uniforms are for sale at K-Mart, Wallmart, Target and yes Macy's. Same thing, the price you pay depends on where you buy it. So if you want to buy the expensive set, go to Macy's. Wallmart and Target, not so much... Hell you can get uniforms for the little tykes for the year for less than 100 per child.

Now Wally world has other issues... but hey nothing is perfect.

[ensho]

67. NO

nt

[mdmc]

70. I am open to them..

[Echo In Light]

73. I'm generally against most overt, orchestrated types of uniformity

Mainly b/c of many lifelong experiences that taught me to be distrustful of those who promote it. So, no, fuck school uniforms.

[TwilightGardener]

74. Grew up wearing them in Catholic school. Wish I could have worn

my own clothes--was happy to go to public high school and wear what I wanted. Edit to add: and no, my family didn't have the money to dress me fashionably, but I still would have done my best to not look like a total dork.

[dugaresa]

80. there are positives and negatives, but more positives

dressing kids for school is expensive. if your kids go to a larger district the "fashionistas" can make a child's life hell. there is nothing worse than having the "have nots" go to school each day and deal with the "haves".

i am fortunate to be able to give my kids nice things to wear but not anything outlandishly expensive (i am a bargain shopper), however my kids go to a district that has kids from various economic backgrounds and it is heartbreaking when you see the number of kids whose parents are struggling and they are wearing clothes that don't fit, etc. To be honest I would be all for uniforms in our schools and even contribute to help pay for another family's uniforms because i think it would help equalize that situation.

if you want "expression" you can wear a necklace, perhaps do your hair differently but personally i would rather kids develop character and and not worry about their appearance as much.

[aikoaiko]

83. I'm fine with them and would have no problem sending my son in a school uniform.

It certainly would keep things simple in the morning...

[naaman fletcher]

84. Uniforms are one of the main reason I send my kids to private school.

Removing that whole fashion thing from their daily lives is wonderful for them and me.

[pipi_k]

86. All three of my grandkids are in a private school

and yes...the uniforms are a big plus.

They even get a "dress down" day...one dollar gives the kids a chance to wear whatever they want (within reason and the bounds of good taste) on Fridays.

My son and his wife, and my daughter and her husband, are not rich, yet they manage to afford the few extra things they need to comply with the school rules.


Oh, and the kids love their school.

:)

[defendandprotect]

163. Yes, but they CHOSE to join a school where they knew uniforms would be required ... PUBLIC SCHOOL

is different, IMO --

[Dappleganger]

88. Public school is for learning.

If uniforms will help that school accomplish these goals, I'm for it.

[blueamy66]

90. I went to Catholic school and wore uniforms all of my life.

I loved it.

Cause my school clothes were so cheap, my Mom bought me some name brand stuff for the weekends, special occasions, etc.

As an adult, I look with pride upon the kids in the coffee shops and stores in their school uniforms. They look good.

[bridgit]

96. Michael Moore never seems to take his off so they can't be all bad

[Echo In Light]

99. Ha...well, the key difference is if it's chosen versus imposed by authority

Didn't Einstein routinely wear the same set of clothing so he never had to exert any thinking to the subject?

[bridgit]

131. Yep, everyone wears a uniform, there is a uniform Americans wear everywhere...

And the people of the world see us coming as plain as day cause we wear 'the uniform of peace & freedom', or whatever; which mostly means denim from China, running shoes from China, shirts & blouses from China, ball cap from China. Einstein? Yeah, gotta love simple solutions. There's that scene from Stardust Memories where Sandy Bates' anger escapes and the search party has it cornered and a guy walks up and says he's a psychologist adding while holding in hand, "See, here's my pipe" - it's all part of the uniform, the costume, but of course those are better, funnier jokes...

The OP mentions the fashion show-like ends to which this 'freedom uniform' impacts upon the cohesion of study and purpose. When 'the street' is offered the opportunity to bring its uniform to bear they sometimes bring the imposition of their own authority in the forms of gang violence/hate crime too often on campus, or carried over to unsupervised prom night sexual assaults for hours on end and worse, as if that isn't enough

I understand the OPs concern for a uniform diminishing student individuality. But the uniforms students are already wearing have beat that concern to the punch :)

[Toucano]

100. Hell no! My individuality is derived by my purchase of mass produced consumer goods!

This thread has really opened my eyes.

Even the so-called left is drowning in consumerism.

[MattBaggins]

107. Perhaps Chairman Mao

would be a preferred source for kids uniforms in your America?

Parents wishes to have your nose out of their clothes shopping decisions may not be as much about rampant consumerism; and have more to do with a desire to keep knee jerk Marxists out of our lives.

Just saying

[Toucano]

226. Did you lift that response from a freeper thread about health care?

It certainly reads like one.


The issue has been studied extensively. The benefits of school uniforms are legion. It isn't "knee-jerk Marxism" in the least.

Rather your resistance is based on a bastardized sense of freedom sold you you by the wizards on Madison Avenue which you have contorted into a warped concept of your parental rights.

Yes, it is rampant consumerism. Individuality through mass consumption is an oxymoron.


You realize you are also employing elements of the fundamentalists' argument against teaching evolution or diversity sensitivity in public schools? "You can't force your view on MY child!"

Frankly, yes we can. The community makes numerous decisions about what happens to your children in public schools.

If you don't like that, you're free to dress up your little darlings in whatever the advertisements you see tell you to buy and teach them at home.

[anonymous171]

127. The anti-community left needs to learn the difference between egalitarianism and totalitarianism.

[MrMickeysMom]

103. I lean towards school uniforms for these reasons:

Less Expense for parents
No competing "fashion statement"
Introduce a discipline for later on (I agree with the Frank Zappa notion that everyone wears one)

That is all...

[WCIL]

104. My kids went to schools with a "uniform look" rather than

a uniform. In elementary school, it was navy bottoms and either a red,white, or blue (royal, navy or powder) shirt. For the first few years we were involved the top had to have a collar, but this was relaxed so that T-shirts were acceptable, as long as there were no logos. You could add a sweatshirt or sweater in one of the approved colors. No makeup, no nail polish, piercings (for boys and girls) could only be in the ears and the earrings could not dangle.

The good: it really was cheaper. When you ran low on t-shirts, you can usually buy Hanes for about $4/per. When you had a growth spurt in May, you could make one pair of pants last you the rest of the year and no one cared because they were usually in the same boat. There were no restrictions on sock color or hair accessories, so you could express yourself (to a limited degree). There was a minimal need for lots of "street" clothes. Best of all, there was so much of this stuff floating around that you could usually find someone to trade/lend/gift you with most of what you needed if you needed to buy navy pants and couldn't find any (which happens frequently if navy is not the "in" color that season).

The bad: there is always going to be competition in school, so there was a lot of pressure to have the "right" shoes or backpack. Everyone who looked at you knew where you went to school (my son was ok with this, my daughter HATED it). Honestly, everyone did tend to look the same. I could go pick them up from school and think three or four of the kids were mine at first glance.

[Throd]

106. I probably would have spent less time trying to peek down Stacy's shirt and more time learning

[DailyGrind51]

108. Well, they'll be wearing uniforms on their way to Afghanistan, eventually.

They might as well get used to them, unfortunately.:-(

[Generic Other]

109. Show me pictures of happy kids in uniforms and I will show you Orwellian indoctrination

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_L6pDyjqqsvY/Sc71r-6xzeI/AAAAAAAAa04/-h7Sy1Bn2Mw/s400/hitler+youth.jpg



















?w=400&h=338

[mamaleah]

111. Right because only Nazis wore school uniforms.

Let me guess, you are mad when you hear that a job has a dress code too.

[Generic Other]

119. I did not only put up pictures of Nazis

I would suggest that those who want to control us start the process young. I was intelligent enough to see it for what it was even at a young age.

What gives you the right to tell my child what to wear? You are violating my child's first amendment rights. So no not just Nazis try to control my children. You do too. And what right have you got to do this? My children aren't paid employees of some school district. My children aren't yours to indoctrinate.

Look carefully at the pictures I posted.

Kamikaze pilots playing with a puppy before being locked into planes without enough fuel to return after their bombing missions.

Comanche boys forced to wear uniforms similar to the pony soldiers who exterminated their people.

Red Guards smiling before going on a rampage in their communities purging thos ewho needed to be re-educated.

Girls forced by religious injunction to be invisible!

And yes, children being prepared to kill for Hitler and Stalin and a hundred other dictators.

To me, uniforms represent more than just fashion or convenience--they represent control and indoctrination. Conform or there is no place for you. I refused to do this as a child. And I refused to as an adult. I made the decision not to work for corporate America. I don't seek employment in places where they enforce "dress codes." They don't pay me enough. I don't wear anyone else's brand on my chest, and especially not just to earn a paycheck.

I don't have to do so. And I don't think others should have to do so at your whim or anyone else's. You want matching children, you dress them alike and parade them like Octomom. But I have news for you, my child will not be joining your utopian paradise.

[mamaleah]

124. LOL.

Drama much?

Yes uniforms lead to Orwellian nightmares. Wow. You really are afraid of the sky falling, aren't you?

[Odin2005]

199. +1,000,000

That is my thinking as well. A classroom full of kids wearing the same thing is truly disturbing.

[jberryhill]

117. You get your pictures from the wrong place

[Generic Other]

120. I googled images of children in uniforms

Sorry you don't like where they are found or what they are doing!

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pipi_k]

142. I googled it too, and the first images I found

involved:



#
www.thechildrenswearoutlet.com/ - Cached - Similar
#
JCPenney: School Uniforms, Children's School Uniforms, Kid's ...
Our school uniforms feature a great collection of girl's school uniforms, boy's school uniforms and school uniform shoes! So, stock up on all the children's ...
www.jcpenney.com/products/Cg10406.jsp - Cached - Similar
#
Children | Uniforms at Dillards.com
Children > Uniforms. 73 record(s) found... | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | >. View 20 per Page | View 40 per Page | View 80 per Page · MORE COLORS AVAILABLE ...
www.dillards.com/endeca/EndecaStartServlet?N=1003098 - Cached - Similar
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Children's World Uniform Supply, Sarasota, Florida, school uniforms,school supplies, business uniforms, promotional products, embroidery, custom embroidery, ...
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The debate of children's school uniforms is ongoing. Before you form your opinion, take a look at a few issues and reasons for and against school uniforms.
newteachersupport.suite101.com › ... › New Teacher Support - Cached - Similar
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Service – our school uniforms are available all year 'round, and knowledgeable customer service reps. can help you with any size order. ...
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in fact, I went 7 pages deep and still didn't find any of those disturbing images. I suspect that there must have been an extra word or two included in your Google search....

:+

[mamaleah]

172. Thank you

I got the same results as you did.

[Generic Other]

214. I googled hitler youth uniforms, red pioneer uniforms, scout uniforms

kamikaze uniforms, red guard uniforms, indoctrination of children, propaganda posters with children, Indian reservations school uniforms. And your point is that your notion of school uniform is somehow more benign? That your need to control the young of America is different? That to you it's about something different than totalitarian control of all the kids including other people's kids? That somehow the examples I pulled up and got cursed out over are different because some of you on this thread insist school uniforms are marvy in spite of being told by multiple persons that we would prefer our children not be subjected to your social engineering projects?

When you force my child to conform to your notion of social control, how are you any different than the parents being forced to conform in these other countries? My child is ejected from your group for lack of conformity. And you all would attack me because you don't like the images I chose to remind you of the history of the school uniform?

Next you will kick my child out of the school for refusing to say the pledge or observe a moment of silence to your gods.

[pipi_k]

230. "Totalitarian"...."Social control"....???

I'm really sorry you see it that way.

I'm just thinking of the kids who have, and are now, and will be, shamed in school...made fun of and scarred...because of their clothing. What their parents can't afford to buy them.

I think that there are people here who have never had to deal with it, and to them I say, be thankful.

For those who did have to deal with it but weren't affected, again...be thankful.


Be thankful you didn't have to deal with the snickers...the giggles behind the hands...the disgusted or pitying looks...the outright nastiness.

I would just like to spare other kids the same things I went through...kids I'll never even meet.

But, as usual, it's all about "what people are trying to do to MY KIDS" when we ask them to dress in an appropriate, respectful manner, on equal footing with every other kid in the school. ME ME ME...MY MY MY

"Taking away MY KID'S rights"


OK, how's this for a compromise...

Uniforms in schools, but kids whose parents fear Totalitarian Control can pay for the privilege of sending their kids to school wearing whatever they want. Money collected this way can go into a fund to subsidize uniforms for lower income people who don't believe society as a whole will crumble and die because their kids are wearing uniforms...

I think that's pretty fair.

[Generic Other]

239. I learned my attitudes as a poor minority kid

I was the poorest kid in the school. Somehow, I did not feel I had to be a chameleon in order to blend in and avoid "the snickers...the giggles behind the hands...the disgusted or pitying looks...the outright nastiness." In fact, these things taught me the a very different lesson. I learned that clothes did not matter as much as character. I learned that America was not a classless nation and that those who had material possessions might believe they were better than those who didn't have, but it didn't make it true. I formed my unconventional world view surrounded by cheerleaders and conformists. And I became the opposite.

You are asking me to feel sympathy for every kid who was ever in my position; however, I never felt deprived because I didn't have designer logos or expensive stuff, so I don't understand your concern. I have never been one to care if other kids made fun of me. They did whether I wore fancy clothes or not simply because I was a minority in a predominantly white school. Uniforms would not have made much of a difference in the names I was called because it wasn't my clothes the other kids commented on.

You may believe you know what is best based on your struggle to be part of the middle class, but you do not speak for everyone in America. I speak as a person who experienced racism firsthand, who had no extras handed to me in life. I had nothing in a land that did not give a damn whether I had enough to eat, a warm home, adequate medical care. But put me in a uniform and you think all my problems will magically be solved. That is such a ridiculous simplistic solution. I can't believe so many DUers can't see it.

White people have imposed their values on me all my life. My hair is too kinky, my eyes too slanted, my nose too flat, my melanin too dark. You think I care now when you say my class also makes me stand out, that I am somehow such an object of pity that I must be forced to conform to your middle class norms or risk being tormented and traumatized by your children? And that makes me the oddball for resisting?

[pipi_k]

262. See, it's the lack of understanding...

YOU weren't affected by it. So yes, I can understand your lack of understanding.

You apparently were a very strong kid.

Well not every kid has that inner strength.


And I don't have "middle class norms", and my kids are adults now, but when they were younger, they were also the ones (like myself) who had to deal with being made fun of because I couldn't afford the kind of clothes their friends had.

One particularly sad (to me) story involves my son being so ashamed of his clothing that he put on the pants I bought for him from the Goodwill OVER a pair of crummy jeans that hadn't been washed for I don't know how long. He walked to school, and on the way there was a yard with a doghouse in it. He would take off the outer pants and hide them in the doghouse and then go to school in the jeans, then before he came home he would put the other pants back on over the dirty jeans.

I didn't find out about this trick for many years. And it broke my heart.


I don't believe that requiring kids to wear uniforms to school equates to "imposing our values on them". Should we allow girls to wear jeans whose waistbands are so low that we can see their asscracks...or their thong underwear...to school? Maybe the boys can wear shirts with obscene sayings or pictures on them to school. I mean, why not...we certainly don't want to impose our own values on kids, do we?

So there ARE limits on what schools will tolerate in the manner of clothing, and I think that any responsible parent will agree that such limits are not "totalitarian" in the least. It's only about standards at school...not telling kids what they should believe in their hearts and minds...

[nadinbrzezinski]

235. Let me add some to your list of uniforms

Business suits.

Fire Uniforms

Police

Nursing

Medical.

EMS.

Pretty much what you wear every day.

Oh and as to the posters... why don't you google posters done WITH women in uniform oh the horror, during I don't know WW II?



Oh and let me intro you to some Norman Rockwell



This is classic painting done during the Cold War... care to tell my what are the elements in there that COULD be considered propaganda?





Now take a guess who or why were the last two commissioned?

[Generic Other]

241. Notice the kids are NOT in uniform

And in Norman Rockwell's world, the adults in positions of authority can always be trusted. In my world, this is not always the case uniform or not.

As for the uniforms of the professions you list, I am under no illusion that superman's cape is more powerful than the man. The heroes are heroes based on their knowledge and actions not on their attire.

I don't particularly think the business suit uniform of Wall Street is very impressive. The expensive three-piece suit always reminds me of the convict prison stripes so many CEO's wind up wearing.

The military uniforms always reminds me of the endless imperialistic wars Americans have been asked to fight in my lifetime.

The astronauts' uniforms always make me ask how many kids went to bed hungry so one man could stand on the moon and hit a golf ball.

The cop uniform reminds me to be wary of whether there is a decent person behind the badge or someone who will simply abuse his power.

Just as I do not automatically believe the robes of a priest mean a holy person resides within.

The uniforms hide the truth sometimes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

244. Ok I could find kids in uniforms in the US

the boy scouts come as an example and Rockwell had them too.

You are just fixed on the EEEEEVVVVIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLNEEEEESSSSSSS of uniforms... Here is a clue for you. Those kids ARE wearing one... what we expect kids to wear. It is both SOCIAL class and status.

You are dense.

But here you go, more Norman Rockwell art





Takes me all of ten seconds.

[Generic Other]

258. You are right I am "dense."

Wear your uniform in good health.

[nadinbrzezinski]

259. I do and so do you

That's what so hilarious.

[pipi_k]

138. Thank goodness...that explains everything!

I'm so fucked up because I belonged to the Brownies, and later, the Girl Scouts, and my evil mom saved up her hard earned money to buy me a uniform for both.

Little did she know she would set me on the wrong path through life...

Damn you, Mom!!!!!!


:cry:

[Generic Other]

213. Well since scouting encourages discrimination against gays, i would say yes your mom did choose well

how to set a good example to her daughter.

[MrsMatt]

240. You're confusing the Girl Scouts

with the Boy Scouts. It's the BOY Scouts' org that discriminates. The Girl Scouts org is not affiliated with the BSA.

[Generic Other]

242. I didn't post pics of Girl Scouts--I posted a Boy Scout

but the Girl Scout pledge also discriminates against those who do not pledge to God and country.

I was able to be a Girl Scout for many years without having to wear a uniform. But I was kicked out when I was no longer willing to recite the pledge.

[nadinbrzezinski]

245. And the BSA went that way ONLY after it was taken over

by right wing fanatics.

It is so far from Baden Powell's ideas it is not even funny.

[LibertyLover]

116. I like them -

My 7 year old daughter wears a uniform and it's fine. She has 3 pairs of pants, 3 tops and a sweater. A poster up the chain who was concerned about having to buy 2 sets of clothes, one for school and one for play, but it works out. Yes, I have to buy her 3 pairs of khaki pants and 3 white shirts to wear to school, but as far as clothes for play go, I got her a couple of pairs of jeans at the local kids' resale shop and some shirts at Target. Fewer clothes to buy then I would have had to get if she wore regular clothes to school.

[Sultana]

122. I support school uniforms in public schools

".....uniforms diminish students' individuality", they all dress the SAME depending on their various 'cliques'.

[LeftyMom]

133. I don't give a flying fuck because my kid won't be there either way.

:shrug:

[mitchtv]

253. at least they don't use fountain pens anymore

My mother has a big Clorox bill , as I came home with ink up to my elbows daily.Long sleved white shirts and ink wells don't fit well together with kids

[Cleita]

139. In other countries school uniforms are required in public schools so that

the children are equal. That way the rich kids are dressed the same as the poor kids. I went to parochial school and think it's a good idea. We did have our free dress days, like a day before a holiday break that we were allowed to wear our own clothes on that day. When I went to college I missed my uniform. Up until then I never had to worry about what to wear that day. I think we should wear uniforms to work too. I always resented spending my money on the drab outfits I had to wear to the office. I would have been happy just wearing something like a suit the flight attendants wear so I could spend my money on clothes I actually like to wear when I wasn't at work.

[walldude]

149. We don't need no education.

We don't need no thought control. No dark sarcasm in the classroom. Teachers leave those kids alone!

[Stargazer09]

150. I love school uniforms!

I wish they were more common. When we lived in Louisiana, that was the best part of the school system there (the rest of the system stank, at least where we lived).

Everyone wore the same sort of clothes, and they were much better made than the garbage I've been buying for my daughter since then. From a parent's standpoint, they were wonderful. The kids always looked nice, there was no need to worry about "not fitting in" with their peers, and the clothes cost less to buy and maintain.

From what I saw, the kids found different ways to show their individuality, within the dress code. Some teens preferred the button-down shirts over the polos, some girls wore skirts instead of pants, etc. The uniforms did make it more difficult for kids to pick on each other for clothing choices, and that was a good thing.

[pipi_k]

156. I got to thinking about the alleged "creepiness" of uniforms and had to laugh

Because I remember the 60s and 70s when the "non-conformists" amongst my generation didn't want to dress like the "Establishment", so we came up with our own clothing.

The long hair...tie dye...beads...bell bottoms...etc.

All "uniforms" of a type. Yeah, they looked different on the surface, but they were still uniforms in that if you dressed in those clothes you were (or were trying to be) a Hippie. Dress another way, you were a Jock. Suit and tie, "Establishment". And so on...

We didn't want to "conform" but we did... with others of our generation.

People were, and probably still are, readily identifiable by the clothing they wear...their "uniforms".

People who think uniforms are "creepy"...do you go on a job interview dressed in your bathing suit? No. Probably not even if it's a Lifeguard job. So you wear your "uniform"...your suit and tie...or, at the very least, sport coat and nice shirt.

I think we're all wearing uniforms of one kind or another...


PS...just wanted to add that I have lots of photos of my dad, but none of them where he's as handsome as he was the day he had his picture taken while wearing his dress Army uniform.

[quiller4]

175. I favor uniforms for schools. They promote discipline. They also

end all that competition about who has the trendiest clothing from the more expensive stores. Uniforms and uniform swaps really reduce the cost of clothing children for schools. The two districts near me adopted uniforms dstrict-wide for middle schools but for elementary schools the decision is made school by school.

[carlyhippy]

181. I don't have a problem with it, and wouldnt have had a problem with it when i was in HS

a great deal of peer pressure would be gone because of the need to buy designer labels to show off how rich someone is.

[NYC Democrat]

186. im opposed to School Uniforms in general so im strongly against this idea.

[dysfunctional press]

187. kids can be 'individuals' on their own time.

they're in school to learn and so is everyone else. most of them will have to wear a 'uniform' when they start working(even if it's a business suit), so they might as well get used to it.

i am a HUGH proponent of school uniforms.

[DemBones DemBones]

221. Bingo. Teachers shouldn't have to waste time enforcing dress codes,

which kids always push to the limits.

A uniform can be as simple as jeans (neither too tight nor baggy, no holes in them, not faded) and a white shirt (not a tee shirt but a real shirt with collar, made of woven fabric, not knit.) A navy blazer looks nice and is warm in winter. Boys and girls can wear jeans, white shirts and navy blazers and look nice yet still be comfortable.

When I taught public school, I'd have been glad to wear a uniform myself.

[BoneDaddy]

194. I think a middle ground is appropriate

I used to be totally against it, justifying freedom of expression for kids, but after working in the public schools for quite awhile I do not see the harm in asking for a basis of dress that is neither draconian (like the Catholic school uniforms I HAD to wear) and way too loose where I have middle school girls dressing totally inappropriately or boys with their asses overexposed. There needs to be a boundary that is both flexible but firm.

[walldude]

260. So a dress code rather than uniforms.

I hate uniforms. But a dress code, yeah I could do that. In my high school it was shirts had to have a collar and no holes in your pants. That was it. Simple and does the job. The people here advocating for dressing every kid exactly the same have no idea the Pandora's box they are opening. You want to make a kid rebel big time? Make him look exactly like everyone else. Why anyone would want to take away a kids individuality is beyond me.

[backscatter712]

195. Screw uniforms - they're the product of authoritarian control freaks.

Let the kids express themselves and wear what they want as long as they cover up the pointy bits, don't have swear words on their shirts and don't start fights.

Kids should learn how to put together a wardrobe, be it from Sachs Fifth Avenue, or Goodwill, that looks good on them and they feel good in.

[immoderate]

198. I'm against them, but they're probably a good idea.

--imm

[bluestateguy]

202. You should run for office

"I'm against that, but it's probably a good idea"

[Prometheuspan]

205. Real Education reform

when are we going to actually address the problems ?
fix our schools? come into the 20th century?

We keep trying to use 17th century methods to improve our 17th century schools.

Why not bring them to the 20th century and quit all the nonsense?

School uniforms? I can't think of anything more obnoxiously irrelevant to solving problems than say, privatization or
NCLB.

-----------------------

REFORM General
Curiosity drives learning if it is allowed to do so and not shut down.
Curiosity is shut down via the current system, creating the ADD disorder sudden appearance on the charts. One half of ADD is a person who can’t pay attention. The other half is a boring culture, delivery of information modus
operandi.
Curiosity driven learning involves more brain area participation. If a person doesn’t really like their experience, the subconscious mind edits it and doesn’t learn from it. Using curiosity driven learning potentially accelerates the learning curve such that it would not be unreasonable for the society of the future to expect the equivalent of a multiple PhD education from High School.
The largest obstacle to curiosity driven learning is the current student to teacher ratio. Curiosity driven learning requires a personal curriculum to be developed per child, an enormous labor process for most teachers. The cure is to use peer tutoring, and older child tutoring in conjunction with professional testers. Teachers are being asked do two different jobs, Teaching and Testing. Testing is incredibly underutilized. How can you know what a child is ready to learn if you have not learned from them who they are and what they know already?
The second largest obstacle is a lazy educational system which must be corrected
and re-educated itself. The educational paradigm being taught for use is not the one which is being taught in reform education psychology and sociology classes.
The first battery of tests should be; IQ tests, aptitude tests, Sanity tests, Type of intelligence per intelligence tests, learning style tests, performance tests, peer skills tests, comprehensive topical subject tests, and in general, any test which can be used to effectively appraise an individual child for the purposes of creating for that child a personalized curriculum.
The topics of psychology, sociology, conversational logic, and ethics should be added to the current curriculum for all Middle School (ages 12 to 14 or grades 6 thru 8) and High Schools
Personality differences including learning styles and Types of intelligence
Can mean that people learn in very different ways. Groups of students should be organized without regard so much to age as to learning style. A class full of visual
Learners from 3 age groups is better than a class full of kinesthetic learners and visual learners who find each other distracting and each others interactions with the teacher bizarre. Throw in some introverts and some extroverts and a speed-reader or two, and a teachers modus operandi cannot hope to reach well the different types of Students that s/he is teaching.
10. Our society is composed of a population which is by about 50 percent Anti-intellectual. (As part of a deep and long term attempt at denial of science facts)
The sheeple will crucify the nerds, that’s the end result of pack psychology and anti-intellectualist mob events. Both alleged “Sides” in the great orchestrated argument between left and right are delusional dogmatist simple minded over simplified versions of reality, oversimplified problem solving process, and thus oversimplified and therefore
Usually counterproductive pseudo solutions. Polarity does not contain sanity, both sides are polarized via each other, but the line that connects those two dots at no point in time Ever gets around to the big picture or the whole truth. Evolution and mother nature will on the other hand favor the nerds.

Education reform;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_reform
http://www1.worldbank.org/education/globaleducationreform/
http://www.education-reform.net/
http://dmoz.org/Society/Issues/Education/Education_Reform/

Curiousity driven Learning
http://www.csl.sony.fr/~py/developmentalRobotics.htm
http://www.idsia.ch/~juergen/interest.html
http://www.childtrauma.org/ctamaterials/Curiosity.asp
http://www.csun.edu/~vcpsy00h/students/explore.htm


Types of Intelligence;
http://www.macalester.edu/psychology/whathap/ubnrp/intelligence05/Mtypes.html
http://www.ldpride.net/learningstyles.MI.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_intelligences

Learning Styles;
http://www.ncsu.edu/felder-public/Learning_Styles.html
http://www.ncsu.edu/felder-public/ILSpage.html
http://www.chaminade.org/inspire/learnstl.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_styles
http://www.funderstanding.com/learning_styles.cfm

Student Teacher Ratio:
http://www.edspresso.com/?OVRAW=education%20reform%20student%20teacher%20ratio&OVKEY=education%20reform&OVMTC=advanced
http://www.edreform.com/index.cfm?fuseAction=section&pSectionID=15&cSectionID=97
http://www.dreamagic.com/jesse/isedurat.html

Anti Intellectualism;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism
http://chronicle.com/free/v47/i15/15b00701.htm
http://www.amazon.com/Anti-Intellectualism-American-Life-Richard-Hofstadter/dp/0394703170
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0121/p17s02-lehl.html
http://mtprof.msun.edu/Spr1997/TROUT-ST.html
http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/07/26/anti-intellectualism/
https://urresearch.rochester.edu/retrieve/6552/Anti-Intellectualism.pdf
http://www.boston.com/news/local/maine/articles/2007/02/04/reorganization_plan_calls_for_higher_student_teacher_ratios/?rss_id=Boston.com+--+Maine+news

[immoderate]

243. Well, my instinct is not to enforce a rule that is not educational.

As a teacher, I was sympathetic with the students who wanted to wear their own clothes. (I never worked in a school with uniforms, but there were dress codes I had to enforce. Some things made sense and some things were "just because.")

I am persuaded by many of the arguments here that uniforms are practical and afford some benefits. Adolescents and teens tend to self-select some form of uniform anyway. I could live with it, with competent administrative support (and consent of the governed.) :patriot:

--imm

[shanti]

208. they weren't an option at any schools my sons attended over the last 30 years.

i would love to have had them tho. it would have made life much easier!

[blaze]

211. The one year I had to wear them

I LOVED them!!!

I was never into fashion stuff... never cared one bit... And for one glorious year I could just get up in the morning and put on my white shirt, blue slacks or skirt and I was done with it.

On the weekends I wore my wanna-be hippie uniform; patched, bell-bottomed blue jeans and a blue work shirt. :)

I don't think my creativity or all-American freedom was hindered all that much... and I'm pretty sure my parents still felt they had a strong hand in raising me. :D

[Withywindle]

224. It seems bizarre and kind of creepy to me.

I went to public school in the 70s and 80s and never wore them.

The idea of public school kids in uniforms seems like one of those societal changes that is NOT for the better. (Like "zero tolerance" policies that get kids expelled for bring plastic butter knives with lunch or writing stories influenced by the latest zombie movie.) I really don't envy kids today, not one bit.

[Mimosa]

227. 100% FOR them

I was fortunate enough to be able to attend parochial schools then later moved to public. We wore uniforms at co-ed Catholic schools. The kids focused on schoolwork more and weren't competing for stylish attire. Therefore students who were poorer were treated more equally.

[EndersDame]

228. I love dramatic crazy clothes but would have liked to have had uniforms

I wouldnt have felt like I had to compete with the other girls and perhaps I wouldnt have been teased as much for my shabby clothes.
Just to clarify I love zebra stripes leopard print stripes MAC makeup and neon any thing
so its not like I am dull or anything just think it could remove alot of drama from school

[musicblind]

229. I think it is a good way to stifle bullying. Which should be a top priority for any school.

However, I am torn because it does seem totalitarian as well.

[LWolf]

231. I see both sides.

I'm a teacher. There are extremes that bug me, but I don't like authoritarian micromanagement, either.

On a scale of 1-10, this issue hits a .05 with me. I'm more concerned about privatization and union-busting being escalated under the current administration; uniforms don't hit the alarm meter.

[Name removed]

236. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[burrfoot]

237. Uniforms. Absolutely, 100% uniforms.

They can be cheap, as has been mentioned- shorts/khakis/skirts and a polo shirt / sweatshirt. Nobody has to worry about who has the cool clothes.

That whole line of reasoning with the uniforms making people evil (i.e. Nazi's, etc.) is absurd- shades of "Hitler had a mustache, therefore mustaches are evil."

Also- and I realize that there may be many who disagree with me here- there are way too many girls, who are way to young, wearing too little or too provocative outfits.

Should this be something that the parents handle rather than the schools? Absolutely. But they aren't, so I think it's appropriate for
the school to step in.

Will this stop them dressing the way they do everywhere else other than the school? Not even a little bit. But it's one place that can address the issue, and I think they should.

Do I realize that this issue comes from the negative self images that many young women grow up with, and the fact that they're bombarded with sexuality from every media source in the world? Yep. Do I realize that it "shouldn't" matter what a girl wears, she should be treated- both by boys and by other girls- with respect, and an understanding of who she is rather than what she wears? Sure do.
It doesn't happen, though.

In this case, there is a lot to be gained by treating the symptom; because it's going to take a while to change the underlying causes of it in our society.

I certainly am not referring to all parents here, or all girls. In fact, I'd wager that the odds of someone reading this actually being the parent of one of the kids I'm talking about is pretty low.
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who sees this as a problem, though. When I'm at the mall, or at a school, and I see what some of these girls wear, and I have to do a mental facepalm and wonder what the fuck their father (or mother, or both, etc.) was thinking.

:shrug:

[Hippo_Tron]

247. From experience, they can be a distraction for guys

I transferred to a school that required uniforms by senior year. All of a sudden I was surrounded by girls who were dressed like Britney Spears.

[Politicub]

248. I would have preferred uniforms when I was in high school

I remember being stressed each year when my mom would take me shopping for school clothes. I was an awkward kid, and it was overwhelming for me to try and coordinate clothes and find my sizes for different garments. Plus, my family was poor, so I had the added pressure of my clothes not measuring up to the middle class or wealthy kids.

It would have been so much easier to only need to buy white golf shirts and khaki pants. It's what my nephews wear to elementary school, and they don't seem to be damaged by it. If I think back, I tended to express myself in what I read and the classes that I took rather than having the newest concert tee shirt or designer tennis shoes. I'm sure some of this was due to not being able to buy the cool stuff, anyway.

I tend to prefer things that make life easier for kids based on my negative experience in school, so others' mileage may vary.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

251. uniforms have an equalizing effect which is good but also have a diffusion of responsibility

& growing without and emphasis on individuality. i see both sides of this issue

[knitter4democracy]

252. I've taught in both: I'm for them.

I've seen how the students spend so much energy in trying to mess with the uniform code that they don't have the energy to mess around in other ways, how it's blurred the lines between rich and poor, and how it gives students a sense of school pride (even while they complain about them). They work.

I don't think they'd work in all schools, however. I'm subbing in mostly alternative schools these days, and I don't think they'd work there--the kids just wouldn't come, and that's not the point of our school.

[Thickasabrick]

261. I went to private school, wore unforms, think they are great. You

could not tell the difference between the rich and poor kids (yes, there were poor kids), and "status" became a non-issue. I think they are a great idea and I would support my school system if they wanted my tax dollars to help pay for them.

[TexasObserver]

263. hate it