I have a feeling I will not be welcome at DU after Tuesday

[bluestateguy]

The president is likely to up the troop commitment in Afghanistan due to the last Administration's neglect of that war for 7 years. It is unfortunate, but the job needs to be finished (victoriously). There was no promise from Obama in last year's campaign to abandon Afghanistan.

And I am dreading the explosion that is sure to come on DU when the announcement is made. I suspect that I will be drown out by the shouters on the Pacifist Left. I just don't have it in me anymore to argue against 30 people to one.

I'm in the process of drafting a farewell message, just in case. We'll see.

[LeftyMom]

1. Bye.

Best wishes,

the Pacifist Left

[Luminous Animal]

4. You forgot to shout.

BEST WISHES,

THE PACIFIST LEFT

[LeftyMom]

6. I was busy putting more bumper stickers on my Volvo, sorry.

:rofl:

[Fumesucker]

13. I think you misspelled "Prius"

;)

[boppers]

42. I think you misspelled "Bicycle with Hemp Tires"

Only fascists and freepers have cars.

:rofl:

[Luminous Animal]

53. ONLY WARMONGERS HAVE BALLS.

[Snotcicles]

121. He has to do something to keep the economy going, and it runs on lead. nt

[WilliamPitt]

63. Bye yourself.

The OP has been around as long as you. Your views are no more or less important than his.

How dare you?

Please reconsider your post. He doesn't deserve a "Bye" any more than you do.

[LeftyMom]

68. Oh, you're defending warmongers now?

I don't give a flying fuck about his views or what you think of my post. I'm pretty fucking concerned about the innocent people being killed in this bullshit excuse for a war.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[inna]

209. I'm with you.

:thumbsup:

[johnaries]

218. I am not a warmonger, but I support attempting to "finish the job"

in Afghanistan.

I was firmly against the illegal war in Iraq. I have supported and do support the war in Afghanistan against those who killed innocent Americans and continue to strive to kill more and those who supported them and harbor them.


You should be careful before you throw around epithets like "warmonger" so freely and loosely.

[Duende azul]

73. Oh please, she didn't ask him to draft his farewell message.

The evil pacifist left drove him to do it all by himself. By anticipated shouting.

Come on. The basic point of the OP was if the majority of DU remains antiwar (btw that's different from pacifist left) on Tuesday he feels compelled to leave. Because he feels outnumbered.
Does he ask for equal post numbers pro and anti escalation to make him stay? Could we have this rule for other topics as well please?

So I think you are a little harsh to the poster you answered to. She was nicely ironic. Don't paint her like she was the Spanish Inquisition.

[trumad]

96. Dude---

Fine and dandy that he's an old-timer--- but "Pacifist Left"....are you fucking kidding me.

I am 1000 percent against the war in Afghanistan and that makes me a "pacifist"?

It was a douche comment and it deserves scorn.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

151. It was a douchebag comment

but I guess I am a member of the "Pacifist Left". Feigning victimization is such a Palinish move. I guess I will see him off on Tuesday, and at the same time I will dislike President Obama's policies even more.

[arcadian]

136. Will, you're better when you are fighting for the underdog.

"pacifist Left"? Come on...

[inna]

211. you "officially" lost me now, WP.

what a lame and ridiculous comment, full of logical fallacies and strawman arguments.

i didn't expect this from you, frankly.

:thumbsdown:

[JVS]

91. +1

[Heidi]

156. Despite your self-aggrandizement, you're not the voice of the Pacifist Left. (nt)

[LeftyMom]

159. Of course I'm not.

I'm just a snarky asshole with an opinion. The same as the rest of the snarky opinionated assholes on this website. :shrug:

[fudge stripe cookays]

166. Well, you got the first part right.

:eyes:

[tabasco]

169. LOL!! Thanks for Richard Nixon,

assholes.

[redqueen]

219. deleted

[omega minimo]

2. How do you define "the job needs to be finished (victoriously)"?

[Fumesucker]

3. +1

[pnwmom]

7. Rooting out Osama bin Laden and whoever's protecting him.

Or finding proof of his death.

[Luminous Animal]

9. THAT'S JUST AS AMUSING AS WHEN GEORGE BUSH SAID IT.

WITH REGARDS,

THE ACTIVIST LEFT

[pnwmom]

31. Bush never even tried. He couldn't wait to get to Iraq. n/t

[EFerrari]

43. You can't fix 9/11 with an army. That's been clear since 9/12.

[Luminous Animal]

45. TRIED WHAT?

[pnwmom]

109. When we first went into Afghanistan, bin Laden was there, in the mountains.

But we pulled out after missing him a couple times in order to go to Iraq instead.

[Sebastian Doyle]

114. Where's the evidence that Bin Laden was there in 2001?

Because a lying Chimp said so?

[defendandprotect]

194. Or that Bin Laden had anything to do with 9/11, other than being a "patsy" . . .

or even perhaps a volunteer "patsy" --

[fascisthunter]

221. the us didn't miss him, they let him go!

Tora Bora

[PassingFair]

167. And ALMOST as funny as when the Soviets tried to round up the "Talibanese"

Mujahideen, whatEVER.

Too bad that PISS POOR country is such
a BY-WAY for oil.

Location, location, location.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan

[EFerrari]

20. Is the Pacifist Left the only ones who know bin Laden is not in Afghanistan?

WTH.

[pnwmom]

30. If you know where he is, please tell the CIA. n/t

[EFerrari]

37. Al Qaida set up shop in Pakistan in the tribal areas. CIA knows that.

Just like they've known that Omar's been sitting in Pakistan all this time. These are not secrets.

[Luminous Animal]

54. BOMB BOMB BOMB PAKISTAN.

[EFerrari]

57. I think we already are. Plus Blackwater is in there to kidnap and murder people.

THAT'LL TEACH THEM.

[Luminous Animal]

58. CLEARLY THEY HAVE BALLS. NOT LEFT. NOT PAFICIST.

MAYBE THE OP SHOULD JOIN THEM.

[inna]

226. more like, drone drone drone.

lesser evil, i suppose?

[pnwmom]

108. All we know is what the media tells us. n/t

[EFerrari]

163. With respect, that's not really true.

We also know what international experts tell us via their articles and books. We can also pool what the media tells us and draw reasonable conclusions.

That's how we figured out that Bruce Ivins couldn't be in Princeton at 5pm AND back in Frederick at 4:30pm. The pressitutes let slip a lot more than they know they do.

[phasma ex machina]

172. Blogs, tweets, phones, etc. also provide HUMINT.

waziristan

[EFerrari]

173. Our national security establishment relies on the Big Lie.

So, if you happen not to buy into the Big Lie, your brain is still available to process information that can be retrieved from a lot of public sources.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

153. Didn't John McCain claim to know where he was?

Obama should ask him and get the fuck out of Afghanistan.

[dixiegrrrrl]

215. McCain knows where he is, he said so all thruout his campaign.

Did he ever tell the CIA?

Did Obama ever ask McCain?

Besides, we are not looking for Bin Laden. The new language is that we are fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan and fighting Al-quada in Pakistan.
I have no idea of who we are fighting in Iraq any more.
We just seem to be fighting someone for some reason deep in the heart of geo-political oil/gas country.

[omega minimo]

32. Aren't they the ones who believe he's already dead?

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

40. There are no jobs, people are losing their homes, getting medical care

gets harder every day and these people are worried about BIN LADEN?

:wtf:

[omega minimo]

46. Maybe they work for the military industrial complex

[EFerrari]

49. They seem to be the only ones hiring, that's for sure. n/t

[omega minimo]

52. They support a lot of workers in the widget industry as well ....

[Cleita]

134. Bin Laden is dead and the CIA knows that too.

It brings me to the question, "What is Washington trying to cover up, by not admitting that he is dead and ending this war ASAP?"

[Name removed]

165. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sebastian Doyle]

113. So when are we invading Hell?

Because that's the only place you're gonna find former CIA agent Tim Osman these days. :evilgrin:

[MercutioATC]

115. Riiiiight....

...because if we get HIM, terrorism will end.

:eyes:

[piratefish08]

116. Wow. That sounds even funnier coming from the left than it did from the right.

[arcadian]

137. This old fairy tale?

[A wise Man]

101. What job

i'm still trying to find out what job needs to be finished. Are they there to get Osoma Bin Laden...or just there to kill or be killed???????

[CrispyQ]

139. Victory = more profit for the MIC.

America's two main exports are war & fraudulent financial products.

[omega minimo]

160. Ah. Victory = A Value Added Solution.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

5. My dear bluestateguy...

I sincerely hope your farewell address will NOT be needed after Tuesday, or at any other time...

I will be very disappointed if he does as you expect, but I would never attack anyone because of that viewpoint.

Please, stay...

:hug:

[The Straight Story]

8. Hell I am not welcome here now, which is what makes it all so fun and why I stay

:rofl:

[Quantess]

10. That's not true, is it?

I like your oddball-news-item threads.

[The Straight Story]

18. oddball?

How you gonna play my news items?

[Libertas1776]

12. Exactly,

There is no need for you to leave, bluestateguy. Hey, I may not agree with you at all on this subject, but what kind of place would DU be if everyone agreed with each other. That wouldn't be any fun and it certainly wouldn't be interesting. If I wanted a site where everyone agreed with everyone, I'd go to Freeperville.



So stick around, okay.

[Bluebear]

11. Ah yes, the Pacifist Left....could you drip contempt anymore when you say that?

[Luminous Animal]

28. THE PACIFIST LEFT HAVE NO BALLS

THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE BENEFIT OF BOMBING THE CRAP OUT IF THE CITIZENS OF A BELEAGUERED COUNTRY WITH A LIFESPAN OF FIFTY. THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE BENEFITS OF REDUCING THAT LIFESPAN TO 40.

[omega minimo]

51. The Pacifist Have Left The Building And Taken Their Balls With Them

:kick:

[Scruffy1]

120. I still got mine

40 years of warfare and I'm still protesting. Anybody wants to doubt if this old millwright got any balls left is welcome to try and stop me.

[napi21]

14. You won't be alone. I know nothing about military strategy, and only some

on political strategy. Mu BIL was a Marine for 25 years and HE told me all wars are political, and I believe him.

Everyone must understand that immediate withdrawl might be the ideal, it's not the best solution.

Stick around. There will be supporters too. You know you don't really HAVE to argue all the time. Read whatever posts you find interesting and ignore the rest.

[Luminous Animal]

39. INDEED. THERE ARE ALWAYS PEOPLE WHO WILL SUPPORT KILLING PEOPLE

UNLESS THOSE PEOPLE BEING KILLED ARE MEMBERS OF ONES OWN FAMILY.

KILL. KILL. KILL. BUT DON'T KILL ME.

[SammyWinstonJack]

187. I wonder if these war supporters

would still be supporters if mccain were the CinC, since they love to toss that out at those criticize Obama's policy or lack thereof?

[cliffordu]

15. Hang in there, I'm right at your shoulder on this.

Some here don't understand what the payback will be like if we just walk away.

they'll go back to slaughtering people in the sports stadium, prolly put them on youtube for shits and giggles.

[Fumesucker]

21. America will *never* put the non-military resources into Afghanistan

That are truly needed to pull it out of the 7th century.

Military might cannot win there because the problem is not a military one, it's a social, political and economic one.

[cliffordu]

25. I think the policy is truly one of rope a dope until some accord can be reached.

Really I do -

Like Nixon did with the N.Vietnamese....

peace with honor or whatever that craptastic saying was.

And I was going to give them credit for being in the 13th century, but I think you're right......the 7th sounds more like it.

[Fumesucker]

34. There isn't a central government to reach an accord with in the first place..

Karzai is basically mayor of Kabul in all but name..

We just really don't understand how utterly and completely decentralized Afghanistan is..

[EFerrari]

44. There is but it's in Pakistan. n/t

[cliffordu]

50. no - I mean an accord of some type with the Taliban or all those

tribal leaders or whoever is going to take over when we leave.

We go now and there's a completely failed state, not a mostly fucked up state like they have now....

[Fumesucker]

60. Those folks shift allegiances about as often as the average American changes underwear..

No accord we leave in place will be operative six months later unless it is purely by accident.

[Hippo_Tron]

198. Cliffordu, I'm glad someone else here actually sees the Nixon parallel

Everyone here either seems to think that this is either LBJ all over again or that we're really going to defeat the Taliban. Obama is looking for a way out of this without making it look like he bailed completely. And while I think such a strategy is just as ethically questionable as when Nixon did it, it might be the least bad option compared to what a Republican President will do if they win in 2012. Plus it might be less ethically questionable if the actual war isn't being run by someone as ethically questionable as Kissinger.

[lapfog_1]

41. Is that the goal then, to keep them from making women wear burqas

and not executing folks in soccer stadiums for "crimes" like being the victim of a rape?

Not democracy, not schools, not stop the poppy growing, not infrastructure, but put an end to their judicial system (Sharia law as interpreted by Islamic fundamentalists)?

Then why not invade Saudi Arabia? That's where this stuff comes from. The Saudis have been exporting Wahabi fundamentalism for a generation now, using OUR money (that we paid them for their oil) to build schools around the Islamic world that taught their special version of Islam and Islamic law. If it's our purpose to root out this 12th century fundamentalist vision, why stop with Afghanistan?

[Hannah Bell]

48. excuse me, but the US bought textbooks for madrassas & encouraged the

rise of fundamentalism.

[lapfog_1]

61. Back when we were competing with the Russians

and loving the bloody nose that the rag-tag Afghans "freedom fighters" were giving them. We looked the other way when those folks started explaining their views on religion and law to us. Now, it's not so much fun anymore, and blow back is a nasty reminder of the hubris of the past.

And we were fairly selective in our support of fundamentalist schools. Saudi Arabia (through the royal family and the many charities sponsored by Saudis) has done quite a bit more, and much more so for the last, what, 20 years.

Yeah, we built some schools and bought textbooks... and we sold Saddam his chemical weapons too.

But the question remains... is stopping Sharia Law in Afghanistan the "goal"? Is their adoption of a western set of laws and punishments so we don't have soccer stadium executions what we are after in our war there?

I mean, I *thought* we went there to get Osama bin Laden and his group of terrorists, and only bothered to overthrow the Taliban government because they wouldn't turn him over (and even that might not be the truth). So I trying to find out from anyone that supports a "surge" in Afghanistan (or even staying there another 6 months) what the ultimate goal is and how can we tell that it's reached or that we are even making progress to that goal. So far, I hearing crickets.

[Hannah Bell]

71. of course its not the goal.

[lapfog_1]

74. Well, the poster who I was replying to seems to believe that

it's enough of a goal to warrant staying there... and I was posing the question in more direct terms attempting to get clarification on what some here believe our goals ARE and what they SHOULD BE for us to stay or even "surge".

Personally, I'm still thinking that the goal is what it was before 9/11, namely an oil and gas pipeline from the 'stans down to the Indian Ocean. And the Taliban government wouldn't deal for it. So, no matter what they said about bin Laden (whether or not they might have arrested him and handed him over), they had to go because they refused to be bribed on the pipeline deal. "Carpet of gold or carpet of bombs" indeed.

But that's just my belief. I was really trying to get a clearer explanation from the OP of this sub-thread... and, I might add, a DUer that I respect. But if he was serious and that removing the evil that is Sharia Law (as practiced by the Taliban) is sufficient reason for us to invade (or now to stay and surge), I'd really like to understand why this place and this time, and not all of the other places and other times when is was someplace other than Afghanistan.

[Hippo_Tron]

201. Ask Zbigniew Brzezinski

He'll tell you that we've gone from fighting a superpower with nuclear weapons to a rag-tag band of thugs and thus arming the Mujahideen was completely worth it even with the blowback. I'll give him that point, other than the fact that the superpower with nuclear weapons never launched an attack on American soil.

[Scruffy1]

122. no war-no payday

i think the small part the US played in the overthrow of the socialist regime is overplayed, but I do know there's no business like war business. with our economy in the tank about all we got left is war and football-besides what else have the talking heads got to report on.

[cliffordu]

56. All that other stuff would be great, but I'd settle for a country where aid

workers aren't routinely killed for shits and giggles.

Maybe then some of that other stuff can take place.

If we get Afghanistan shoved in some orderly direction, maybe we can invade fucking Somalia and do the same thing.

I'd rather we fight for human rights than fucking oil.

[lapfog_1]

65. OK, but there have been brutal regimes that did worse to

many more people than the Taliban could ever dream of doing. And we (as a nation) did almost nothing to stop any of it. Cambodia, Rwanda, Uganda, Somalia... various south american countries. The list is very long. People arrested, detained, raped and murdered, bodies dumped in mass graves.

Why Afghanistan? Why now? Did those other people not deserve our intervention?

Yes, I'd love an enlightened Afghanistan, hell, I'd love a peaceful Afghanistan where girls didn't have to worry about acid being thrown at them if they try to attend an all girls school.

But at what price? And why this one and not invade to stop the murder of over 500,000 people (possibly a million) in Rwanda in 1994? It's a question worth asking.

[Flaneur]

162. Ah, the Wilsonian delusion rears its ugly head.

Afghanistan, Somalia, why not North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Sri Lanka? Then Cuba, most of Africa...

How about we let the people in those countries fight for their own human rights?

Or would you prefer to make war on half the planet in the name of human rights?

[cliffordu]

190. Sure, why not.

I said better that than wars for oil, didn't I??


And, having fought a war for 'wilsonian delisions' I say fuck you and the libertarian horse you rode in on.

On the other hand, you may be right. The machete killings out of Somalia are killer on YouTube, and you kids need ennertainment, now, don't you.

And just think, if we let them all kill each other, we can build THEME PARKS and shit.

[paulsby]

87. and i'm there as well

there are people here who support obama's stance on afghanistan. we are few, ... but feisty!

[arcadian]

143. You also support police bashing in skulls at protests....

Oh wait, you actually were one of those police bashing in skulls, weren't you?

[paulsby]

161. no. but nice try nt

[arcadian]

164. You've been saying you were a riot cop at the WTO protest in Seattle...

[paulsby]

181. and that is correct

but at no time did i say i supported "skull bashing" in particular, or excessive force in general.

fwiw, considering an estimated 50,000 protestors, there were relatively few serious injuries, and especially injuries that are consistent with a "skull bashing".

in this respect, we compared very favorably to the preceding european protests in terms of injuries suffered.

[Bluenorthwest]

119. You mean like the Saudis do each week?

The Saudis whose citizens actually attacked us on that day, the Saudis who we trade with on a huge basis?
Do you think we should invade all nations that are abusing their own? Are you planning a bake sale to pay for it?

[arcadian]

140. Ironic that you have a Vietnam service ribbon as your avatar.

Some people never learn from history I guess.

[cliffordu]

200. I don't know that you can really glean one from the other, but fuck it, go ahead.

[cherokeeprogressive]

16. I, for one, will BEG you to stay...

IF

you can define for me "Victory in Afghanistan".

If not?

Well, I'll hate to see you go.

[TicketyBoo]

82. Sunday before last

on 60 Minutes, Byron Pitts did a segment, riding with our bomb detection team in Afghanistan.

At the end of the piece, he asked two of our soldiers what success in Afghanistan would consist of. One said, "Getting to come home alive," and the other agreed. Now if the soldiers there consider "Getting to come home alive" the only success in Afghanistan, then we need to bring our troops home alive NOW. If "Getting to come home alive" is the only success the guys on the ground there see, then why are they risking their lives there? They shouldn't be. Bring 'em home!

[Skittles]

17. so you agree with war but cannot fight one yourself

you just might be a fucking chickenhawk

[Individualist]

135. +1

[FrenchieCat]

19. Hell, most already know, and the explosion has been happening since.....

These are the folks that turned around when he was talking during the election.
They were busy listening to Kucinich, and they believe that they could transfer
Kucinism onto Obama by sheer will.

[EFerrari]

22. Obama was wrong during the campaign on this

and he's still wrong.

[Fumesucker]

23. After the flip flop on FISA and telecom immunity who was to know when Obama was serious?

He could well have been lying about Afghanistan just like he was about FISA..

I for one didn't believe a word that came out of his mouth after FISA.

Not that anyone else was any better.

[The Straight Story]

24. I always ask myself this:

What would bush do, and would we think it was wrong if (or when) he did it?

And if so, then it is wrong when someone else does it too :)

[Bluebear]

27. That is really an excellent rule of thumb.

If it's suddenly "OK" when our side does it, you may be a partisan apologist. :thumbsup:

[SammyWinstonJack]

191. Exactly. nt

[Luminous Animal]

64. THAT'S RIGHT. OBAMA RAN AS A WARMONGER AND IS A WARMONGER.

SO, SHUT UP YOU SISSY PACIFISTS. YOU SHOULD HAVE CAST YOUR VOTE IN THE 10th DIMENSION WHERE YOU WOULD HAVE HAD A CHOICE OTHER THAN BETWEEN TWO WAR MONGERS.

[Duende azul]

77. Excuse me. Where during campaign did he say that he would go such length escalating the war?

And how did you answer the opposition to his Afghanistan and Pakistan remarks at that time?

Did you defend Obama's position?
Or did you tell the people "wait and see, it's campaign talk?"

And how is your position on the escalation?

[QC]

26. Quite a few people will die as a result of this escalation.

You might have some people on a message board disagree with you.

I'd say you have it pretty easy.

[lapfog_1]

29. Could just ONE person explain to me

what "the job" is, and how can I tell that it's "finished".

It was/is the same question I had for the neocons of the Bush era.

The question is still relevant to the Obama era and Afghanistan.

We no longer engage in combat patrols in Iraq. We remain in fairly large numbers in our bases and compounds there mainly as a deterrent to Iranian military adventures (their political conquest of Iraq, minus the Kurdish north and some Sunni territories, is nearly complete, but their army dare not cross the border and risk war with the US, at least this is my belief). But what has changed on the ground in Iraq between the time that we did military patrols (and routinely lost a few dozen soldiers a month) and now? New government? Better trained Iraqi policemen? What? What was "the job" in Iraq? When was it finished? How can we tell?

And the same questions for Afghanistan.

I'm not a member of the "Pacifist Left". I wanted us to go into Afghanistan in 2002 with 200,000 troops, planes, tanks, and another 100,000 Nato troops. And take everyones guns from them. And destroy the poppy crops. And kill all the Taliban. And "get" Bin Laden. And build 500 or 1000 schools that teach boys and girls (even if they have to be sex segregated). And add electricity to almost every town. And pay the Afghans to grow something, buy all of their agricultural output for a decade at above market rates. Heck, pay every Afghan family $100 a month, for at least 15 years. There are 28 million people in Afghanistan. Assume about 5 to a nuclear family and you have 5.6 M families. At $100 a month for 15 years, the total is $100 Billion dollars. Which is probably less money than we have already spent. Certainly less than the next N years of occupation are going to cost. We pay each family $100 a month for 15 years and we wouldn't have to ever fire a bullet (hell, anyone in the country that shoots at an American "guest" would immediately be hung by a crowd of angry people).

But please, someone, tell me what the "finish the job" means in concrete terms.

[omega minimo]

33. Well you're at the least the fourth person here to ask that. Has the OP answered yet?

[Bluebear]

35. 'I'm in the process of drafting a farewell message'

I think that is taking up his attention now.

[omega minimo]

47. ROFL

:cry: :rofl:

[PuraVidaDreamin]

94. It's similar to "a nobel cause"

No one could answer that one either

[Mind_your_head]

36. Don't be so fast to draft that farewell message, bluestateguy......

There won't be any "winning" (by ANY measure, which, btw, the US gov NEVER defines what 'winning' or 'the MISSION' is....) in Afghanistan or Iraq.

It's just throwing more American bodies, more Federal Reserve Notes (that we print faster than Little Ceasars' can make a Pizza!) at the wall and NOTHING STICKS! Nothing 'sticks' b/c "we got nothing" NOTHING to offer.

That's the CORE of the problem.

You know all of this, of course.

I hope you don't 'leave'.

Peace,
M_Y_H

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[anonymous171]

55. Who says we are all pacifists? Isolationists and non-interventionists need some love too you know.

[Luminous Animal]

59. BALL - LESS NON INTERVENTIONIST.

NO LOVE FOR ANYONE WHO IS NOT WILLING TO KIL KILL KILL.

[eqfan592]

85. Wow you're over the top.

Seriously, you're the poster child of what's wrong with the progressive movement right now. Congrats on turning off potential supporters with your ignorant, narrow minded, rose colored view on the world.

And I'm not even sold on the "troop surge" idea in the first place. Other's here managed to disagree and even debate the issue without dehumanizing the opponent and making them out to be some blood thirsty animal. You would do well to learn from these folks.

[anonymous171]

130. I believe they were joking. nt

[WilliamPitt]

62. Always welcome as far as I go

No matter what you believe.

[burning rain]

66. You can make the case that Obama voters should have expected escalation, but it isn't so relevant.

The Democratic Party's peace camp will inevitably be alienated by escalation. I don't think any significant number of Obama voters expected him to "abandon Afghanistan" and I bet that the true strength of America's actual "Pacifist Left" can be gauged by Barbara Lee (D-CA) having been the only US representative to vote against military intervention in Afghanistan after 9/11. Most lefties accept some resort to force of arms to control the activity of militant groups in Afghanistan, but an escalation and big new influx of US ground troops is another matter.

[tammywammy]

67. I support the war in Afghanistan

Until they have a working and dominate government and military I don't think we should leave.

[LeftyMom]

69. The US has a rather poor record of installing functioning governments.

At best they'll get a neglectful puppet government that signs off on oil contracts that's a bit less obviously corrupt than at present. That's hardly an improvement worth dying or killing for.

[Fumesucker]

70. Do you think we should leave when China won't lend us any more money to stay?

Seriously, this is all on borrowed money and if Congress raises taxes to help pay for it I'll be utterly flabbergasted.

The health care bill had to be "revenue neutral" why not the wars?

[Mind_your_head]

72. Why?

:thumbsdown:

Why should YOU care? Do you care about Zimbabwe? (NO???? Why not? They don't have a working & dominate government. What's DIFFERENT about Zimbabwe amd Afghanistan?) Get's back to 'why should you care' and 'WHY are we there' (in Afghanistan).

[Duende azul]

76. Will you enlist?

[Obamanaut]

99. You say "...I don't think we should leave." I'm not there, and I suspect

you are not - where do you get the "we" in "we should not leave."

Do you mean our sons, daughters, nephews and nieces, parents, friends and relatives, etc? That is "they", not "we."

Personally, I want "them" out of there.

[datasuspect]

129. please encourage all of your eligible family members to enlist

maybe you should visit a recruiter yourself.

[Mari333]

184. please. enlist.

[AngryOldDem]

212. Where have we heard THAT before? n/t

[bigtree]

75. pacifists would do that?

. . . explosions and shouting? That's not what I'd expect from pacifists.

[Duende azul]

78. I just rec'd this. To make it visible. At least it's the first "Bye" post on the topic.

That merits visibility.

Although i can't understand how someone who wants "the job ... finished (victoriously)" can be so sensible to shouting (shouting from pacifists at that).

[elocs]

105. Kicking it by responding is what makes it visible much more than a Rec.

24 hours after it is posted you can no longer Rec the OP, but you can kick it near the top of GD by responding to it.

[Prometheus Bound]

79. He did promise that the first thing he would do would be to get the troops out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LsSppYxSHk&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn134-KLL7Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LsSppYxSHk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dyGvGdMWug&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr9ywEFRQkQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LsSppYxSHk

Quote: "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank."
- Barack Obama, October 27, 2007

[TicketyBoo]

84. He was talking about Iraq there.

He wasn't talking about Afghanistan.

And you have linked to the exact same clip (posted by different YouTube users) six times!

He always said that Afghanistan was a "war of necessity."

it was evident that he planned on escalating the war in Afghanistan.

And, at that point, it was an okay thing to advocate.

But things have changed. Al Qaeda is no longer in Afghanistan. They've hightailed it into Pakistan. So the strategy should change.

Since the ones who have declared war with us via 9/11, the supposed cause for the war in Afghanistan, are no longer there, why should we be there? We shouldn't.

We need to get the heck out of there, where the only thing our guys are accomplishing is getting themselves blown up. Get out and if al Qaeda dares to come back into Afghanistan, go get 'em then. The only reason I can see to put more troops into Afghanistan is if we're going to use it as a base to go after them in Pakistan, and I doubt very much that's what's going to happen (and it probably shouldn't).

Bring our guys home, darn it! This is not the same war it was a year ago when you were elected, Mr. President. Say that, and bring them home.

[akbacchus_BC]

188. Well you know what, George fucking bush should not have invaded Iraq and then

the motherfucker invaded Afghanistan for what? Bin Ladin was GB's friend, now GB went and fucked up Iraq for oil and fucked up Afghanistan for oil, not Bin Ladin.

The more the US stay in these countries and kill people the more US soldiers will get killed. I say, fuck Karzai, American democracy at its best, you folks cannot even give medical care to your own people, man, oil is what America needs, so who cares who gets fucked, whether it is the American soldiers or the people from Iraq and Afghanistan. Fucking leave those two countries, the more the US stay there, more people are becoming terrorists.

[TicketyBoo]

203. You have it backwards.

Afghanistan came first; Iraq was an unnecessary diversion.

Anyone who uses the f word so many times in a single post suffers from a serious lack of vocabulary.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Duende azul]

81. I wholeheartedly wish you will be able to stay. If there'd be no escalation to shout about.

One can hope...

That would be a win-win.
Less loss of lives and you will be able to stay on DU.

[TicketyBoo]

83. During the campaign

it was evident that Obama planned on escalating the war in Afghanistan.

And, at that point, it was an okay thing to advocate.

But things have changed. Al Qaeda is no longer in Afghanistan. They've hightailed it into Pakistan. So the strategy should change.

Since the ones who have declared war with us via 9/11, the supposed cause for the war in Afghanistan, are no longer there, why should we be there? We shouldn't.

We need to get the heck out of there, where the only thing our guys are accomplishing is getting themselves blown up. Get out and if al Qaeda dares to come back into Afghanistan, go get 'em then. The only reason I can see to put more troops into Afghanistan is if we're going to use it as a base to go after them in Pakistan, and I doubt very much that's what's going to happen (and it probably shouldn't).

Bring our guys home, darn it! This is not the same war it was a year ago when you were elected, Mr. President. Say that, and bring them home.

[EFerrari]

86. To be accurate, AQ had already left for Pakistan before Obama ran for office.

But given the abject media-fostered ignorance of the American public, it would have been difficult for him to get that into a sound bite.

[Stinky The Clown]

88. Hey BluestateGuy .... if you think it a war worth fighting, YOU go fight. Or send your kids.

You log on from Kandahar and let us know how its going.

See? No need to leave and you can still support your war.

[Chemisse]

89. Don't leave!

Ignore a few threads for a few days to get past the worst of it, or take a 3-day break from DU. But don't leave altogether.

When my husband told me about this website, my first reaction was - how dull, a forum with a bunch of people who all think the same way.

Now I blush to think of my naivete, of course, but my point is, we don't want a chorus of like-minded voices.

So stay and weather the storm.

[era veteran]

90. Should have left after Tora Bora

Osama did. War is the Afghan national sport.

[JVS]

92. Pre-emptive whining about being "drown out by the pacifist left". K&U

[MadHound]

93. First off, define what a victory in Afghanistan will look like?

What will be a win?

That's the trouble with a war like this one. Much like in Vietnam, you can't define what a winning scenario is because there really isn't one. Sure, we can prop up the government while we've got boots on the ground, but as soon as we leave, much like in Vietnam, it will all go to hell.

The only "victory" possible on this one is to lay waste to the country and call it peace, and we're not going to do that, even the US still has a few morals left.

As far as you leaving, oh well, good bye. You don't want to be shouted out by the pacifist left, well then you're going to have a problem in real life as well, since sixty seven percent of Americans don't want an escalation.

But hey, if it makes you feel big and important around here to either threaten to quit, or actually quit, like a pouting child, fine, go ahead. Realize however that you're making yourself look more and more like an ass as you continue with this.

[immoderate]

178. This is one country that's hard to "lay waste to..."

That was Cheney's reason to shift the war to Iraq, because there were no good targets in Afghanistan. I don't think that Dresden or Hiroshima ever lookd worse than Afghanistan.

--imm

[pecwae]

95. How warm & fuzzy would you feel

about this if someone else were POTUS? Why care about the dreaded explosion? No one is required to post; no one is required to argue. Those horrible Pacifists, meanies to the core of their beings, aren't arm twisting anyone to post. All an opus is good for is to soothe the hurt feelings of the OP with the few exhortations to "Please don't go!" Adults don't need that type of babying.

[trumad]

97. Looks like you ducked out early

since you haven't replied to one post in this flamefest.

[ipaint]

98. Grayson said it best.

"I think that the basic premise that we can alter afghan society is greatly flawed. Afghanistan is simply the part of Asia that was never occupied by the Russians or the English in the Great Game. It's not a country; it's not even a place. It's just an empty place on the map. It's terra incognita. People who live there are a welter of different tribes, different language groups, different religious beliefs.

All over the country you find different people who have nothing to do with each other except for the fact that we call them Afghans, and they don't even call themselves Afghans. They're Tajiks or they're Pashtuns, or they're Hazzaras or someone else. The things that hold them together are simply the things that we try to create artificially.

And the idea that we could transform that society or any other society through aid I think is entirely questionable. I've never seen it happen; probably never will happen. If you go to the Stan countries north of Afghanistan, and I've been to all of them; what you find is that the way that the Russians altered that society was by crushing it. Stalin killed half a million Muslims in Kazakhstan, in Turkmenistan, in Kyrgyzstan, in Uzbekistan.

He simply sliced off the head of that society in order to remake it in the image that he wanted. And I think that we would have to do no less if we wanted to remake Afghanistan in our image. We'd have to destroy it in order to save it, and I don't think the American people are ever going to do that to anybody. So I think that the underlining premise is simply wrong.

I've been to 175 countries all around the world including Afghanistan, including every country in that region, and what I've seen everywhere I go is that there are some commonalities everywhere you go. Everywhere you go people want to fall in love. It's an interesting thing. Everywhere you go, people love children. Everywhere, they love children. Everywhere you go, there's a taboo against violence. Every single place you go. And everywhere you go, people want to be left alone. And that's the best foreign policy of all. Just to leave people alone."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howie-klein/alan-grayson-on-afghanist_b_315087.html




Sending more troops to afghanistan is useless. But some folks seem to need another vietnam and still they won't be convinced. The corporations, who are the ultimate beneficiaries of this mess, rely on you and others like you to allow this to reach it's guaranteed deadly and destructive conclusion. I'm sure you won't let them down.

[RagAss]

104. That is the best summary on the topic I have ever heard.

[boomerbust]

100. After 9-11

I think a huge majority of the American people were in agreement with Bush to go to Afghanistan and destroy the people who attacked us. Bush fucked up so the job must be finished. One question I would like to ask Obama, "Why did Bush call off the dogs at Tora Bora when they had Bin Laden cornered". Getting to the truthful answer to that question would explain a lot of the destruction that was heaped on this country over the last decade.

[sendero]

102. It has nothing to do with..

... pacifism. I am NOT a pacifist. I just don't believe in wasting lives and money on things that have a 5% or less chance of success.

Once again the generals pound the table and demand more and more resources, while their accomplishments, in Iraq and Afghanistan, are marginal at best and they are never held accountable for the fact that they are FULL OF SHIT.

[Starry Messenger]

103. Enlist.

[NoPasaran]

106. Hey bluestateguy

No need to go anywhere. Just prepare for a surge in your Ignore list.

[noamnety]

107. I feel for you.

The warmongers are being oppressed by the pacifists here. You must feel horribly victimized. If there is one thing more traumatic than living in a war torn country, it has to be being outnumbered on a message board.

[pipi_k]

111. Why argue? Why leave?

First off...why should you need to argue with anyone if President Obama does what you think he should do? Arguing about it (from either side) would be pointless then, don't you think? I mean, it won't change anything, will it?

Second...why leave? If you don't find yourself arguing with 30 people who disagree with you, there's no need to leave.

I'm not being snarky, honestly. I can see both sides of the issue, myself...good and bad on both sides...so there's no point in rehashing something that will never change just because people on an internet discussion board argued about it...

[HughMoran]

112. That little "X" next to each thread is a real lifesaver

Just click the "X" and your blood pressure will drop one point. Get rid of all the flame-fests and your blood pressure will drop to normal. There's no use arguing with people who've made up their minds already - you'd have more luck banging your head against the wall to relieve a headache. My way of looking at this is going to be "the beginning of the end." As far as I can tell, once he's fulfilled his commitment to Afghanistan, whether it goes well or it doesn't (it probably won't go well), he can say he did his best and we can get out of there and move on. As he said "I didn't start this war, but I'm going to end it". He will.

[Skittles]

145. made up their minds aleady?

you do realize this war has been going on for YEARS now don't you?

[Bluebear]

157. See, it's as long as Obama gets to say he did his best.

No matter how many civilians and soldiers were blown up along the way.

[NYC Liberal]

117. I hear you. I'm against adding more troops and yet...

there are some on this site who must take everything to the extreme. There are, of course, many here on DU who can and do disagree with each other in a civil way and with logical and well-thought out arguments. I'm talking about a small subset of DU here, but anyone these posters disagree with is labelled a "corporatist" or some other name. Anyone who agrees with Obama on something which they disagree with him on is called a "cheerleader" or "Obama-bot" or some other inane nickname. It's sick.

I've said before, I think it's a personality type. Some people just have to be complaining or pissed off about about something, no matter what it is. Anything they disagree with is blown up to gargantuan proportions and attacked mercilessly. They do not have arguments, and are not interested in legitimate debate.

[spooked911]

118. what is "the job"?

kill more people and create more terrorists? Let more opium be grown and smuggled?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

123. "the job needs to be finished (victoriously)" = "Smoke 'em out", "Bring it on".

Just minus the cowboy boots and smirk.

[Bluenorthwest]

124. So if those who want peace are the pacifist left I assume you

are the war mongering right. Is that fair?
I've seen so many ask you to define your 'victorious finish'. And you have not replied to any of them.

[LWolf]

125. I'm sorry.

It's regrettable that you can't handle this disagreement, and that you are uncomfortable being in the minority in a given situation.

I don't know if your predictions are correct. DU has grown more centrist/corporatist/3rd way/"new" dem by the day over the last 18 months. It's pretty common these days to ridicule the left on DU, and there are regular posts suggesting that we ought to be purged from the site.

If we can take it, so can you.

Best wishes.

The Pacifist Left

[HopeOverFear]

126. Just wait. Come Tuesday night

the venom that's gonna be spewn around here is gonna make the Rick Warren freakout look like a picnic. It's gonna get REAL ugly. I plan on being somewhere else. lol

[DisgustipatedinCA]

127. you have an inflated sense of ego, and you're a whiner to boot

Do you think anyone really cares that much if you go away, never to post again? I'm sure there are people who enjoy reading what you've got to say, but if you took your words and went away, do you really believe that would detract from the quality of these people's lives? I don't. I've been posting here since 2001; do you think I haven't gotten sick and tired of hearing certain things from certain groups (even if you and I are pretty much at opposite ends of the "D" spectrum)? In all that time, I've never threatened to pick up my toys and go home. And do you know why? Because no one would give a shit, that's why. Nor should they. If you're looking for someone to feel sorry for you because mean liberals might say stuff that goes against your opinion of the way we should prosecute a war and the best method for getting shrapnel into childrens' bodies, you may not find much satisfaction here. Cry me a river, armchair killer.

[2tr4nqued]

128. Obama's goals are unrealistic. The war is not worth fighting. n/t

[lies and propaganda]

131. Pacifist left?

How about just FUCKING OVER WAR.

im not a pacifist.. Im just tired of kids dying so we can look big and strong.

Theres tons of warmongers on the other side, give them a try on Tuesday.

[azmouse]

132. Find a good book to read for a few days.

I'm staying away from DU for most of next week.

[Gormy Cuss]

133. There is no way to "finish the job" in Afghanistan other than to exit as quickly as possible.

The country is FUBAR, it will continued to be FUBAR until the people rise up on their own and demand the kind of country THEY want, which is not necessarily the kind of country the U.S. would prefer.

[tekisui]

138. Go get you wargasm on somewhere else.

Take the other chest-thumpers with you.

[AllentownJake]

141. I swear you guys are developing some sort of persecution complex because people disagree with you

There is only one other group I know that does that.

[shadesofgray]

146. +1

[bridgit]

142. Oh yeah, the roof is going to blow straight up off the top of this juke joint believe it!

[shadesofgray]

144. If you're so pro-war, then by all means

go help fight it instead of being scared of an "explosion" here.

[alfredo]

147. I think Afghanistan is as much about Pakistan as it is about Afghanistan.

Having the Indian leader over was a smart move if they were talking about the India/Pakistan conflict.

Here's what we need:

Pakistan's nukes secured. Pakistan would do itself a lot of good by allowing the US to form a defensive perimeter around their nuke bases and facilities. That would also ease tensions between India and Pakistan by lessening the threat of a first strike by Pakistan.

Neuter the Taliban as a military and political force, by leading by example. Give them a hand up instead of a hand out.

Leave Afghanistan but use the Pakistan forces as a quick strike force if needed in Afghanistan.

Stop any effort to change them into what they aren't, no matter how painful it is to see the plight of women in Afghanistan.

[JohnnyLib2]

148. Stick, please.

Many of us (libs) muddled through the godawful divisions in the Viet Nam years. There are always pieces to pick up, tomorrow to face.

[Truth2Tell]

149. Why not just go now? nt

[rucky]

150. What's the job that needs to be finished?

and how does more troops help serve that?

If you're so convinced, then you should be able to convince others - unless this is just a faith-based conviction.

Please note the practicality of my questions, because they're common ones for the "pacifist" left.

[TexasObserver]

152. Forget the war! Your feelings matter more!

Please, everyone! Think about what it will do to this poster if we express our displeasure with the president for being a war party lap dog. Look, I don't have any problem with your posts on any topic, but I can't stand these kind of "what about me?" threads that miss the point. We are in a war, and some of us want it over. We've heard the arguments. We are past that. We know what we want, and more war is not it.

FYI: Farewell posts are lame. If you must stop posting, just stop posting, and come back when the mood strikes you. We're not married. We won't wonder where you are if you don't post tomorrow. We're not depending on you for sustenance. So, just leave and come back when you feel like it, if you must leave.

[DIKB]

154. Don't broad brush us. I'm not a pacifist.

I'm logical. So please explain to me the logic in trying to fill a vast sinkhole with our tax-dollars and human lives.

Afghanistan is our generation's Vietnam. Do we really have to go through that again?

I see no logic in staying, nor am I beholden to some stubborn pride and a need to "win."

[earth mom]

155. So you aren't willing to fight your own battles, but expect soldiers to die for a war based on a LIE

while you cheerlead massive genocide of muslims because of hatred and greed for oil?! :wtf:


Wow, that's pretty fucked up and cowardly if you ask me. :puke:


I might be a pacifist or anti-war, but I'm NOT afraid to fight my battles here on DU.

[Heidi]

158. The Pacifist Left is not nearly as mean-spirited as the behavior of some might lead you to believe.

That's my personal observation. :hi:

[Odin2005]

168. I agree with you, but I'm staying, no matter what.

[MyNameGoesHere]

170. Pray tell me what the "job" is that needs "finishing"?

So far not one person can answer that. I am of the opinion it is just more dick wagging to see whose is bigger.

[butterfly77]

171. What is it with this VICTORY shit!

I was tired of hearing this throughout the bush years and now I hear it day after day on television. Is it the fact that you and others like the word or is it you need to prove a point to the world that America is the baddest country on the earth.

Now,most countries already know that we have numerous nuclear weapons but,you will be there for another century is you think you will be able to say VICTORY because even if America does proclaim VICTORY we all know Afghanistan will never change no matter how much we in America proclaim VICTORY they will continue to fight us no matter what.

Now,I do believe that the President is trying to leave strategically but some think he wants to keep it going and I don't believe that but, I do believe whatever the situation the RepubliCONS and the warmongers will do everything possible to keep us there for the DRUGS and MONEY..

[RedCappedBandit]

174. I wonder if the war mongerers would be as supportive if Bush escalated our presence there. nt

[lib2DaBone]

175. There IS NO VICTORY in Afghanistan.. it's a death trap....

[immoderate]

176. Flamebait. Anyway it's not the pacifists (who oppose all war)...

It's the thoughtful people who don't see any upside to continuing this war. You will be drowned out for sure. Everybody (almost) will be against you. And most are not pacifists.

BTW can you describe what you mean by "victoriously?" :shrug: And you seem to have disappeared...

--imm

[Political Heretic]

177. God I hate this kind of self-serving attention posts. Please promise me this:

If the time comes and I choose to leave DU, if I make these sorts of ridiculous self-serving prostrations, or post a pity poor me "farewell" message, that someone will call me hard on the hypocrisy.

When its time for me to go, I will simply, quietly go.

[merh]

179. There is no need to leave.

Just don't get involved in the threads about Afghanistan.

Ignore the threads that you find troubling.

[akbacchus_BC]

195. +1, sage advice

[Kid Dynamite]

180. Being against the onslaught of imperialism

is far from making one "pacifistic". It may be instead that you are a throaty supporter of brutal, bloodthirsty imperialism.

[mmonk]

182. I don't think it is a sound decision. It doesn't have anything to do

with pacifism. But I know people have to characterize people they disagree with I guess just like some will call you a war monger. My question is what is the mission and how is victory defined? Most of "al Queda" is in Pakistan. Also Afghanistan is a tribal country. I'm not sure the empire project is worth it or will succeeed in the long run without ongoing conflict.

[Mari333]

183. I assume you will be in afghanistan on the front line and therefore be unable to post

[LynnTheDem]

185. "the Pacifist left"...

Fuck off.

[akbacchus_BC]

189. He had to go to work and 'fuck off' might bring him back here!

[alarimer]

186. There is NO military solution there, and no more kids need to die in vain.

Every soldier killed or injured there is a waste. Every single one.

Your post is complete bullshit and extremely naive as well. No one "wins" in Afghanistan. No one ever has.

[akbacchus_BC]

192. Guess the people in Iraq and Afghanistan are fodders for Bush Oil!

President Obama did not start this shit, it was Bush in case you need to be reminded. President Obama is trying to bring some sanity to these two invasions. Remember if you went into a store and you broke something, you paid for it. Well, heads up, America fucked up!

[defendandprotect]

193. I seem to remember how we needed "victory" in Vietnam . . . !!!

It's all a scam --

[akbacchus_BC]

196. Gosh, you got a lot of flack here, too bad you did not stay to defend yoursel!

[Bucky]

197. You don't have to leave. It's just a discussion board.

I'm in support of the president's decision to send in more troops; I think he's going about it wisely. I'm not leaving DU over one political issue. If young men and women can go and risk their lives fighting against the people who killed 3000 people on our shores, posting our opinions for or against the need for that sacrifice is the very least we can do.

[redqueen]

220. Wonder why you didn't get piled on with calls to enlist, and to

ask your friends and family to enlist, too.

Weird. I guess they missed this post.

[Prism]

199. Here's what gets me, and it'd be hilarious if it wasn't so heinous

The OP is dripping with "Why I'm about to become a victim."

While discussing how he supports the inevitable death and destruction of innocents, including children.

Victim on a message board. Because his thoughts on why we need to blow more people apart might get a little heated criticism.

Woe unto me on the internets.

Kids losing limbs because of the thing he's supporting? Total afterthought. That's not the important bit. The important thing is that there will be words on the internet that may generate feelings of personal unpleasantness or embarrassment.

It is a crazy, crazy world we live in. It's as if the ability to think about things existent outside of our own heads has now become an anachronistic ability inapplicable to the information age where reality is whatever's on our computer monitors. I haven't seen self-absorption this profound since, well, ok it was yesterday in that thread about why we need to wage war and kill more people, because if we don't, the media might say something mean about the President.

That war stuff we read about on the Internet? It's real. Real people die and everything. It's true. Seriously.

[liquid diamond]

202. Fuck them.

We got through the primaries and Rick Warren battle, and we'll get through this. Let them whine.

[SIMPLYB1980]

204. See ya.

:nopity:

[MrMickeysMom]

205. You wouldn't be taking yourself a little too seriously here, would you?

Naaaahhhh....

Too many things in life to dread, bluestateguy. Frankly, if it has come to the point where discussion here is too much for you to handle, you need to take a vacation.

For everyone else, there's DU.

[QC]

206. Don't disturb him now--he's writing his farewell missive. n/t

[Orsino]

207. You are welcome to hang around as long as you can stand it...

...but you are unlikely to persuade me to support any more death, maiming, misery, paupering or bereavement is helpful in the larger scheme of things. The only direction I see for us to go is out of Afghanistan, and I doubt that next week's announcement will be anything more than denial of our continuing, willful failure even to identify what "the job" is.

I just want our exit to begin as quickly as possible.

[fascisthunter]

208. "pacifist left"... you wish we were

we don't belive in dying for reasons of profit. We are not sheep... pacifist my ass... good bye.

[Solly Mack]

210. Hmmm. Is it 1: Hoping to be asked not to go - 2: Hoping to be attacked

or 3, both 1&2: People that agree with you ask you to stay and flame-bait enough to be attacked in a self-fulfilling prophecy kind of way ("See? I told you I wouldn't be welcomed. It's not even Tuesday and I'm already being attacked by the "pacifist left")

[TwilightGardener]

213. DU can be an uncomfortable place for anyone who can see shades of

gray on any number of issues that progressives hold dear. It's hard to reason with absolutism and melodrama and slogans and oversimplification (OUT NOW!!1!1!). Once Obama took office and it became clear that Iraq would end, DU latched onto Afghanistan as an equally pointless effort, essentially morphing the two wars into one. Anyone who still sees any potential merit to not instantly bugging out of Afghanistan is going to have to find their own strategies and reasons for sticking around DU.

[redqueen]

223. +1

[BoneDaddy]

214. Wow the pacifist left is full of compassion towards you leaving

BSG.

[Moochy]

216. Is the 'Pacifist Left' the new DLC talking point? Lozo has moved on to 'Palin Democrats'

Update your smear guides appropriately, the new term is 'Palin Democrats' according to vile DLC mouthpiece LozoCULO.

[Bluebear]

222. Yes. I have recently been called far-left pacifist & a crazy left-wing pacifist here.

It can't be a coincidence. As you say, it must be the latest dispatch from DLC.

[Imajika]

217. Why leave DU over it?

On many, many issues I disagree with either the loud minority or perhaps even the majority of DUers. I've been here for many years and I've never felt unwelcome even during ferocious disagreements with others.

I come here precisely because there is a huge variety of opinion. Some of my favorite posters are ones I disagree with almost always, but I really enjoy reading what they have to say because I can sometimes learn something and gain some insight.

I am pretty torn on the entire Afghanistan escalation issue. I have a sinking feeling that we should have just stuck with making the place less safe for al-Queda and not pursed the democracy building thing, on the other hand I can see some merit in the arguments that our abandonment of Afghanistan after the Soviets left got us to where we are today. I think Obama is doing the best he can with the bad hand dealt him. People look at some polls showing the public no longer approves of the war in Afghanistan and think Obama can just withdraw and call it quits. He can't. If he did that there would be hell to pay. His generals would resign, and many of the elite opinion shapers would aggressively move against him. We would be constantly shown video on an nightly basis of Afghanistan falling apart and of the Taliban retaking control, putting women back in the Burqua, burning girls schools, etc. The chaos would be blamed on Obama alone. It really is a very difficult dilemma. On top of all that, Obama has said many times this war is the "necessary war". It would be very hard for him to back away from that.

I really hope you won't leave over this. Sometimes DU gets crazy, but it is the best forum on the net to get a lot of great information and read a wide variety of viewpoints. I hope you stay.

[Neecy]

224. When are you enlisting, bluestateguy?

If this is what you want, when are you joining up to finish the job (victoriously)? Might be a nice gesture so the same people don't deploy over and over and over and over again...

[WI_DEM]

225. come anyway. DU should have a few Obama supporters since it is supposed to be a dem site.

[EFerrari]

227. I can support Obama in general and oppose this policy, thanks. n/t