Today I came face to face with a Rush Limbaugh fan who had stepped over the edge

[Bjorn Against]

Tonight I had an encounter with a Rush Limbaugh fan. I am a political activist who has taken public stands on many occasions so I have certainly had some encounters with angry right-wingers in the past, but this time it was different. This man was not just angry, he was completely unhinged to the point that you could not help but worry that he was about to pull out a gun and go postal. Here is how it all happened...

Every Tuesday I participate in a peace vigil outside the office of Congressman John Kline, a neo-con who has been a long-time cheerleader for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Tonight we had people standing on three corners of the intersection when a young man pulled his car into John Kline's parking lot and approached my friends standing on the corner opposite from me. He was holding a cane and clearly had a disability that made it difficult for him to walk, we would later find out that this disability was the result of injuries suffered in the Iraq War.

When we first saw this man approach our friends we could not tell if he was there to give us his support or to express his disagreement and because we were on the other side of the intersection we could not hear what he was telling our friends. A couple minutes later we saw him crossing the street to talk to a couple other friends who were on the other side, it was clear at this point that he was not a supporter of ours but I did not realize just how angry he was until he crossed over to the corner I was standing on.

I was standing with a friend of who happens to be one of the most patriotic people I know, she is a person who truly loves her country but can see its flaws and has dedicated her life to working to fix those flaws. This is a woman who carries an American flag with her to every demonstration she attends because she believes it is important to show that dissent is patriotic and when she protests the actions of the powerful she is not protesting against America, instead she is standing up for America.

As the angry right-winger crossed the street the first thing he did was yell at my friend, “Are you going to burn that flag when you go home tonight?!”. He launched into a tirade, yelling “why the fuck do you hate America you fucking pathetic losers”, and then proceeding to see how many swear words he could squeeze into a single sentence. He told us that he hoped we all died in a terrorist attack, and he actually threatened physical violence against one of my friends. He told us that he listened to Rush Limbaugh because Limbaugh gave him the “truth”, and that truth according to him was that it was anti-war protesters like us who were responsible for the problems in Iraq.

This man wasn't just angry, he seemed to be on the brink of violence. After threatening violence against my friend, wishing that my family was killed in a terrorist attack and accusing me and my friends of treason it seems that I might get angry myself. I don't feel I can be angry at him however, instead I feel sorry for him.

I feel sorry for him because he is a victim of a war based on lies, he fought in this war and he came home with a serious injury and now he requires a cane to walk. I don't know if his injury is permanent, I don't know if the leg he was walking on was real or prosthetic, I don't know if he saw his friends killed in front of his eyes, but I do know that he was the victim of violence. I have no doubt that he went to war believing that he was doing the right thing, but he was fighting in a war based on lies and his beliefs were influenced by those lies. How would a person feel after making such an enormous sacrifice only to discover that their sacrifice was unnecessary? This was a man who could not handle any questions about the war he had fought in, he was desperate to keep the lie alive because that lie was likely the only thing he had to hold on to. War had pushed him to the edge and left him crippled, and then when he came back home hate radio kept pushing him further.

This man had been used and lied to by the people he trusted, and he wanted blame to pretend that we were responsible for the problems that led him to his situation. He clearly wants us to stop expressing our opinions against the war, but we are not going to stop instead we are only going to speak louder and we are going to speak out for people like him.

This man is one of the reasons why we protest against this war, he may never admit but we are not protesting against him but rather we are standing up for people like him. We are standing up for all the soldiers who were used and abused by our government when they were sent to fight an unnecessary war. Not all of those soldiers will like our opinions, and there may be some like this man who want to believe that we are the source of all the world's problems. The reality is however that we never wanted this man to go through what he went through, and while Rush Limbaugh was cheering on the war that would lead to the unnecessary sacrifices we were standing up and trying to save the lives of the soldiers and the Iraqi people.

I don't know if this man will ever be able to admit that George Bush and Rush Limbaugh lied to him, I don't know if he will ever stop being angry at those of us who stand up against war, and I don't know if he will ever be able to live a life that is not consumed by hatred and violence. All I can hope is that one day this man will turn off hate radio and get some help before he hurts someone.

[sharesunited]

1. He's angry because he knows. And he was taking it out on you guys.

Irrational and yet understandable. Your compassion is exactly the correct response.

[Warpy]

2. I know what you're talking about

because I ran into some of them during Vietnam. He's screaming out his survivor guilt at you because Limbag told him you think his great sacrifice was for nothing because you don't want to sacrifice more kids on the altar of a military victory where there is none.

All you can say to someone like that is "thank you for your service," although saying anything at all just makes them scream louder.

The worse they are, the sorrier I feel for them, too. After all, I'd much rather see them than be them.

Some high profile person in this administration will have to be killed by one of these fanatics before there is a crackdown on the men inciting their violence: Limbag, Beck, Savage, and hundreds of local shock jocks.

I'm sorry you were confronted by this guy. It really sucks when it happens.

[bikingaz]

91. WTF - You want a high profile person killed by fanatics ?

So some action can be taken on the shock jocks you disagree with. Why would you even state this?

"Some high profile person in this administration will have to be killed by one of these fanatics before there is a crackdown on the men inciting their violence: Limbag, Beck, Savage, and hundreds of local shock jocks."

What about a low level person of this administration?
What about a LW killing a right winger? Would that make it ok?
What world are you living in?

NO ONE should be killed by ANY fanatics of ANY organization. Period.

That means not killing people from the Left Wing or Right Wing or the Centrists or any one else you disagree with.

Got that?

[kestrel91316]

96. Warpy doesn't "want" any such thing, dumbass. Learn to read.

She's simply stating her opinion - A HYPOTHETICAL - that there won't be an adequate response to the hatemongering until and unless someone important dies as a result. That is not the same thing as wanting such.

Dumbass.

(facepalm)

[bikingaz]

117. Seems some here are itching for some one to do something despicable

The rest just resort to insults when they have no argument

[patrice]

104. S/he's saying nothing will be done unless and until someone "important" is killed, not that they sho

uld be killed.

Jumping to obviously faulty conclusions like that looks suspicious.

[Warpy]

107. Saying it will take that and wanting it to happen are two different things

Shame on you for equating them.

ASSume much?

[Touchdown]

108. Answer to #2- The last time someone on the left killed a right winger was V. Lenin

killing the Czar of Russia in 1917. Find a "LW" more recent than that.

Answer to #3- The reality based world. Which one are you living in, Mr. "But they do it too!!!" ?

You got that?

[Postman]

3. It sounds to me like this man's ignorance cost him a leg.

Some people will never learn. It's like religion. It doesn't matter if you show them the truth in black and white right in front of their face. Facts don't matter in a world of "faith"...

[AlbertCat]

59. It sounds to me like this man's ignorance cost him a leg.

Well, he is listening and believing a man who never served because he had a pimple on his butt. Not too bright.

[Bigmack]

69. I tend to dis-believe anybody like that...

You know he was injured in a war... how? Because he says so.

I don't believe him. I think he fell off a beer truck, and has listened to Rush so long he's fucking deluded.

I've gotten to the point where I keep a copy of my DD214 in my pocket when I protest. That way, all the badass SEALS/GreenBerets/SpecialForces/DeltaForce claimers can see right on my DD214 what I was and what my MOS was.

You start pushing on them a little, and it turns out they were mostly in supply or washed airplanes.

I also have enough time in the shit that I can say to anybody who walks with a government-supplied limp that their opinion doesn't mean shit to me.

[Raster]

4. Bless your heart.

[Buzz Clik]

86. +1!

[me b zola]

5. Recommended

[EmeraldCityGrl]

6. K&R

[RufusTFirefly]

7. Thank you

It's way too easy to blast the opposition as morons and hate mongers when quite often they're damaged and needy. The betrayal they encounter is too much for them to process. It's cognitive dissonance writ large.

Although they drive me nuts and probably pray for my demise, I find it difficult to hate people like this -- even though they are practically begging me to do so. Instead, I feel sorry for them and wonder what happened to make them this way.

[The Wizard]

17. You got it

cognitive dissonance. When things you believe to be true are proven false the thoughts collide and what comes out isn't nice.
If he's not in PTSD counseling he might want to give it a try. The VA is better than anyone at addressing this.

[timtom]

64. You shame me, sir.

I really appreciate your forgiving nature, and hope that I can be more understanding and forgiving in the days to come. Thank you for a compassionate voice.

[Hekate]

8. KnR. You're doing good, with compassion in your heart for those whose souls have been maimed...

:hug:

Hekate

[Coleen Rowley]

9. Two police stand-offs in last couple weeks involving Iraq vets

In the last couple of weeks, there have been two different police standoffs (one in Edina was 4 hours long) involving returned Iraq vets. The one in Apple Valley involved a guy who had seven guns and a grenade and told his wife (who called the police) that he was going to "start a war". Luckily the police were able to resolve both incidents but it's very telling. KSTP ran a story in which they interviewed a National Guard psychologist who said PTSD is down from 22% in Vietnam to only 10% of returning Iraq veterans but when I posted KSTP's piece on Facebook, I had numerous people send me links showing that isn't true, that PTSD is very high. So I've asked KTSP to check their facts and run better coverage.

The guy tonight also appeared drunk or high.

[mascarax]

35. 10% PTSD?! That can't be true.

Or it's one questionable source. Not surprising since local news stations are biased, happily citing one source and presenting it as The Final Word, etc. (I stopped watching all local news so probably shouldn't make my blanket statement, but I'm not deleting it either!)

The NY Times had a recent article about PTSD, including a substantial increase in women vets. I think those studies didn't release any numbers yet.
Plus there's a recent study of not only high/concerning % PTSD in returning vets, but also even higher % of what I think was termed "dangerous alcohol abuse".

Thanks for pressing KSTP and all you do.

[alfredo]

38. I've had three in my veterans group drink themselves to death, a fourth one

is on his way. One died a couple days ago.

[mascarax]

98. alfredo, I am so sorry -- that is just awful

I don't know what to say. I want to help!

[alfredo]

102. It sucks, but we know who are "short timers." This last one let us know

a long time ago that he would be leaving us soon. The past month or so he called. It was if he was saying goodbye. His cough interrupted our talks.

Last week his liver started shutting down, game over. He lasted 5 days. He lived his life as he wished. He was ready to die. He didn't seem to fear it.

His ashes will be sprinkled on Lake Michigan. Maybe in a few months I will buy some beer from Bells Brewery. They draw their water from Lake Michigan. Maybe, just maybe, I will be drinking my friend. He'd like that.

[SpookyCat]

109. Alfredo, you made me cry and smile with that last paragraph.

What a beautiful bittersweet tribute.

Take care of yourself.

:hug:

[alfredo]

112. Thanks, I needed to talk about him.

I only mourn lives that weren't lived. He lived his life his way. It may have not been a healthy life, but it was his choice and he accepted the risks.

[mr clean]

54. It would be nice if Obama stopped these wars,

but what will become with the damaged souls coming home?

Their needs to be services to take care of our men/women in service coming home but I don't think the VA can handle a lot right now.

[pundaint]

84. Not nice, it's the only acceptable path

Nice would be to do whatever is required to rehab those Americans injured in fighting for this lie. Nice would be to fund that rehab in part, from every penny the no-bid war profiteers have left as we claw back their illegally acquired booty. Illegal because they got no bid contracts in collusion with corrupt officials who lied and defrauded some of the American people into starting this war. If this isn't an ongoing criminal enterprise then one never existed.

[LuckyLib]

58. This individual was damaged due to violence he has both witnessed and experienced.

Edited to add, "and comes home to find he has been lied to by his government."
PTSD is at increased levels in vets returning from both wars, and we are just seeing the beginning.

Welcome to DU, Coleen Rowley! and thank you for all you continue to do to give us a window into government policies and their impact! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/coleen-rowley

:hi: :patriot:

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

72. Welcome to DU!

[Baltimore]

74. Welcome to DU!

Coleen Rowley! A famous name! Honored to meet you!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

106. Welcome to DU, Ms. Rowley

and thanks for all your efforts.

Come and see us in the Minnesota Forum, if you haven't already.

[niyad]

115. welcome to DU-- don't have the link handy, but, some time back, the rate of PTSD was estimated to be

around 30-40% of returning soldiers. there isn't enough treatment within the military or outside to deal with all of them--not to mention dealing with the families of these broken people.

[provis99]

10. sounds like he has Ron Kovic syndrome

If any of you know the story of Kovic, or have seen the move Born on the Fourth of July, you'll know what I mean.

[BrklynLiberal]

20. I thought Kovic came out against the war after his injuries...

[Bjorn Against]

21. He did eventually, but it took him a while

I don't know if this man is another Ron Kovic, but I can only hope so because Ron Kovic did eventually find the truth and was able to turn his life around again when he did.

[Redwoodhippie]

11. Expressed well Bjorn.

I am one of the two people who were at the second corner where this angry young man confronted us. Years ago in California I participated in psychodramas where those who chose to do so outlined a difficult interpersonal relationship and then others present would role play to give the central person a chance to review through interpersonal psychodrama the issues of concern. To me this man was having a psychodrama and we were the ones to whom he could direct his anger. I did feel sorry for him. I hope we or someone else can continue talking with him and allow him to express what he feels as it only by seeing and accepting what you feel and then trying to see why you feel that way that you can grow through a psychological nightmare and I do think his experience was such. He asked me, "Oh so you think my friend's died for nothing?" And I was honest and said, "Yes."

[niyad]

114. welcome to DU

[BanzaiBonnie]

12. It's just so sad

and all you can do is try to make sure you are safe from their hate and rage... and love them no matter what.

[Mithreal]

13. Our weekly Peace Vigil has had similar. K&R

It is very bad of me, but I find some pleasure in causing cognitive dissonance in them, engaging, listening and drawing them out. Getting them to explain what it is they think and ask questions. It's only happened a few times where someone was actually willing to stick around for a long conversation on the sidewalk.

I guess you can hope for ripples. Real life liberals are so scary to Repubs, it's a show of great courage to challenge peace advocates. Funny, some people here ridicule peace advocates, even today. They are just as ignorant or corrupted and they probably don't listen to Limbaugh.

[kctim]

23. Thats because

it really doesn't take "great courage" to challenge them.

[B Calm]

14. Probably will be in tomorrow's paper that you spit on him!

[rasputin1952]

15. Having to face truth often makes people angry and extremely defensive...

It happens all of the time, people realize that what they believe is challenged, and rather than seek out facts, thy just go defensive and then take it out on anyone who may disagree with them. People are strange creatures, and when their core beliefs are seen as something other than what they believe them to be, it is extremely difficult to comprehend, after all, "it's always been this way, why change?". Even in the face of empirical fact, people hold on to their belief system, whether it be denying the earth is essentially a sphere, a geocentric universe or the earth is 6000 years old. When one needs to justify their injuries, it gets even more contentious.

To think tht Limbaugh ever spoke the truth is beyonfd the pale though. He is so far out there, I am still amazed he hasn't just burst into flames...:hi:

[Enthusiast]

62. I haven't listened to

Limbaugh for a long time but he used to open his program with several minutes of insuring the listener that he was totally honest and always told the truth on his program. Ugly lies started as soon as he opened his mouth.

[rasputin1952]

65. Precisely...the man is a toad...

he exists for nothing but lies an obfuscations.

[madrchsod]

16. the guy has been lied to by a guy that is a filthy rich drug addict.

limpballs could careless if this guy lived or died. it`s sad that this guy does`t understand.


video cameras are your friends.....

[barbtries]

18. thank you for sharing Bjorn

i hope there is help for that young man. bush, cheney, limbaugh and the like should be ashamed. and thank you for standing on that corner night after night and day after day.

[BrklynLiberal]

19. Cognitive Dissonance:

Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The "ideas" or "cognitions" in question may include attitudes and beliefs, the awareness of one's behavior, and facts. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors.

Guess this anxiety can lead to a lot of rage....looking for an outlet.

[Canuckistanian]

22. More like "redirected response"

He knows he's been lied to and used. But he can't bring himself to blame his true abusers.

So he takes it out on a convenient target, already well defined as villains by the RW noise machines - liberals and progressives.

[man4allcats]

24. This man is a right-wing manipulator with a combat related physical disability

who goes around provoking people with threats of violence hoping someone will go off on him and kick his stupid if unfortunate ass. When that eventually happens, he will scream bloody murder to Limbaugh and any other neocon mouthpiece who will listen that an antiwar protester physically attacked a disabled vet. Never mind that he had it coming. Being disabled doesn't automatically bar you from getting punched in the mouth. More than a few people have put Gregory House on his butt and with good reason.

[mitchum]

49. He SAYS that is what he is, but those motherfuckers lie about everything

[Blue For You]

25. It doesn't sound like he went to Iraq to me.

First, wasn't one of the purposes of the Iraq war to bring democracy to the Iraqi people (and the oil of course)? So, here's this asshole ranting and raving at Americans who are expressing their constitutional right to protest their government. If indeed, this guy went to Iraq, wasn't the democracy he was fighting for to include the right of Iraqis to protest their government if they so wish?

It sounds like this jerk was a Saddam Hussein supporter. As you may know, Mr. Hussein kinda frowned on people who protested the government. BTW, did this guy offer any proof whatsoever he was actually in the military? Maybe the cane was just a prop to whack you protesters upside the head. This guy doesn't give a rat's ass about democracy, either in the U.S. or Iraq, or anywhere else.

[kctim]

26. You had an encounter

with an American soldier who has been to war in the name of, and out of love for, his country. He also happens to listen to Rush L.
If you viewed him as the former, perhaps you could understand why he gets so upset over such matters.

He doesn't want your pity and he sure as hell doesn't want to hear your opinions on why you think the war is based on lies. He has been maimed and probably seen his friends sacrifice their lives for their country. He does not want to hear why you think those things were unnecessary and for nothing.

You want to help him and others like him? Then stop telling him his personal beliefs are wrong because you cannot understand how someone can love their country the way he does, and for gods sake, stop pretending its ok for you to belittle and condemn his actions and sacrifices because you think you are doing it all for him. How is he supposed to know you are angry with the govts actions, not him or his fellow soldiers, when you fail to separate the two in your protests?

[ret5hd]

27. Sounds like HE was the one with trouble distinguishing between the two.

[chrisa]

31. Well, he should have been thanking the OP.

If somebody truly loves their country, then they would support the right to everybody to protest and say what they want. He should have been thanking the OP, because people like him are preventing more soldiers from having to go and fight aggressive, useless wars created by politicians who don't care about how many soldiers die.

"How is he supposed to know you are angry with the govts actions, not him or his fellow soldiers, when you fail to separate the two in your protests?"

This is actually a clever trick by the pro-war crowd. It was used through this entire decade. Anyone coming out against the war "doesn't support the troops," etc. etc. Listening to Limbaugh all day (as many soldiers do, unfortunately), he has been brainwashed by bs, and cannot differentiate the two types of anger you talked about anyway. People who listen to Limbaugh are so conditioned to believe that the two are intertwined that it's believable that a soldier who listens to Limbaugh would believe that the OP was personally attacking him.

And as for the rest, the truth is often painful. It doesn't mean it should never be told.

[kctim]

39. YES, soldiers should be thankful

for those who protest and all that, but I never mentioned otherwise did I? No. I stated that HOW they protest is what pisses most people off.
It is not a "clever trick" used by the "pro-war crowd" at all. In fact, it isn't even on the same level as the trick of labeling all who dare question the anti-war peoples tactics, as being "pro-war." 99% of people are against war, especially those of us who have fought, and most of us know how to separate the soldiers from the govt when we are making our point. But a minority have no clue or care just as long as THEY are 'heard.' Well, guess what? The troops DO hear what is being said and history shows that they overwhelmingly do not approve when people say they believe as they do because they have been brainwashed and that their beliefs and love of their country is BS. They don't like to be called idiots who are unable to think for themselves or "differentiate" right from wrong, simply because of the beliefs they hold.
I guarantee that I have been heard and have reached more soldiers than the political agenda driven moron who shouts your buddy died for nothing, ever has.

Yes, the truth can be painful and it should ALWAYS be told, but it would sure help the protesters alot if they would realize that THEIR version of the truth isn't ALWAYS the real or only truth.

[Sparkly]

45. "the real truth"

Help me understand this. "it would sure help the protesters alot if they would realize that THEIR version of the truth isn't ALWAYS the real or only truth."

The man seemed angry because he believed, as Rush Limbaugh said, that people against the war are the cause of the problems in Iraq. He also seems to believe that protestors burn American flags and hate their country. What is the truth that protesters aren't seeing?

Further, it seems that you (and perhaps this man) believe protesters are protesting the soldiers. This too was revived repeated ad nauseum on rightwing radio, a warmed-over rehash from the Vietnam war.

Sometimes the truth is just the truth, and sometimes people believe lies.

[kctim]

61. The truth they are not seeing

is that the vast majority of Americans do not share their opinion that the wars are illegal or that fighting for your country when she calls is wrong.

The man is probably angry because some people think he is too stupid to think on his own so he must believe as he is told. He is probably angry because he is nothing like the few at Abu G, but some people lump him in with them in order to score political points. He is probably angry because neither him or anybody he knows every abused or killed an innocent, but some people claim its SOP over there. He is probably angry because he fought and his friends died, in the name of their country, but some people tell him he was wrong to do so and that it was all for nothing.
The dude is angry because of what he has witnessed, not because of what he was told.

And, fwiw, yes, it is usually protestors (NOT all) who burn American flags and who hate their country.

Further, I NEVER said they were protesting soldiers. I said their tactics need to change IF they wish for their protests to be effective.

[chrisa]

66. Point taken,

But the flag burners are a fringe element, and are mostly dumb Anarchists who don't actually care about politics anyway (more like "Dude! Let's burn things and break stuff! It'll be fun!") A common tactic is to put those tools on the news, and claim that all Liberals are like that.

And nobody in their right mind believes that 'every' soldier is committing war crimes, etc., though I do believe many are (it's systematic).

The guy in the OP has been falsely led to believe, by Limbaugh and clowns, that Liberals are his enemy, when "Liberals" as a term is a broad-brush grouping and is meaningless.

However, I object to the idea that, just because a soldier believes he or she is fighting for a worthy and noble cause, that they are correct in believing so. Vietnam was a pointless war, for instance, though many at the time believed it was a noble cause, based on false premises.

"And, fwiw, yes, it is usually protestors (NOT all) who burn American flags and who hate their country."

Completely untrue. You're thinking about stereotypical tools who create riots without a meaningful cause. Most protests are actually pretty ordinary, full of people who love their country enough to want to change it. They wouldn't bother protesting if they hated their country.
Hate your country? Let the military and the rich do whatever they want without making a peep. That's the biggest recipe for destruction out there.

[kctim]

71. A common tactic

to put those "tools" on the news and claim that all liberals are like that? I totally agree and liberals have every right to be angry about it! However, it is also a common tactic to place something like Abu G on the news and claim "this is what our soldiers are doing all the time over there" and our soldiers have every right to be angry over that.

The guy in the OP may falsely believe liberals are his enemy, but to say he has been led to believe that way is the same as saying he is too dumb to think for himself. Does it make you angry when you are told such things? It does me.

Your objection to that idea is meaningless because it is not you or me who determines what another believes is a worthy and noble cause.

Stereotypical tools who create riots are doing so in protest of something or another. While not the average protestor seeking change for the better, they are still protestors.

[unpossibles]

73. no one is saying they are idiots - in fact, it's usually the right who 'blame the victim'

I've been to many war protests and have yet to see a SINGLE person blame the troops or say they are stupid idiots because they were lied to.

The alternative which you seem to suggest is that if someone is lied to and taken advantage of, we should never try to let them know because they don't want want to feel like fools for being wrong or having been taken advantage of. I see. Personally, I do agree that some tact should be used in such situations, but if someone HAS been lied to - and the pro-war crowd has definitely been lied to opinions aside - then I see no reason to further the lie just to save their face.

In fact, that is one of the problems I've had with Bush supporters I know - most of them see admitting error as a sign of weakness, that if they were fooled then it's their fault, not the person scamming them. Personally, when I am fooled or mislead by someone, it doesn't make me mad at the person who lets me know, it makes me angry at the person who fooled me, and I will readily admit being wrong. Mistakes are part of learning and being human. Refusing to learn from them seems to be a rather unhelpful trait, if you ask me.

[ohtransplant]

33. I don't recall the OP belittling anyone's actions.

"stop pretending its ok for you to belittle and condemn his actions and sacrifices because you think you are doing it all for him."


Quite the contrary. I believe patience, compassion and understanding were the order of the day.


Those who protest also love their country

[kctim]

42. You are correct

and I apologize for seeming to single out the writer when I was speaking of a group.

I also did not say those who protest do not love their country, nor did I question their patriotism or anything of the sort. There is a common belief of those who protest wars and I believe more support would be garnered if they worked on changing that belief.

It's about the govt, not the soldiers, and we should do everything we can to ensure the soldiers do not get caught in the middle.

[Bjorn Against]

77. We didn't belittle him, he belittled us.

We were simply out there participating in democracy, we were standing up for what we believe like every citizen should be doing. We did not do a thing to him before he came up and starting telling us that our families should die in a terrorist attack, now I don't know what you think we did that was wrong but I would like you to tell me.

I realize that this guy doesn't want my pity, what he wants is for me to go away but that is not going to happen. I am showing some compassion despite the vile way he treated me and my friends, yet you act like I am guilty of some horrible crime because I am not doing exactly what this guy wants. Sorry, but I can compassion for a guy even when he wishes violence against me but I can not bow down to that person and just walk away so he doesn't have to hear my opinion any more.

And for your for information our protests do not attack the soldiers, and if you believe that all protests do attack the soldiers then I have to question if you have ever been to a protest because the reality is far different than what the corporate media tells you.

[Rozlee]

99. War vets come in all flavors

I'm a disabled Iraq War vet myself, but from illness, not war injury. I worked as an RN at Brooke Army Medical Center until my illness made it impossible for me to keep going but, I still go there occassionally to visit, since my best friends still work there. The injured soldiers there for the most part are very cynical about the reasons that they went to war. If you tell them "Thank you for your service," they appreciate it, but the overwhelming majority of them are bitter about having been sent to Iraq and believe they were lied to. War protesters aren't telling them anything that they don't already know. I've also seen the occassional loner that separates himself from the other soldiers and lives in his own fantasy world where he saved democracy and considers his comrades weak-kneed and unpatriotic for questioning their great mission. This guy sounds like he might be that loner.

Another possibility could be, as my commander used to say, if you were a real asshole when you came in, you're not likely to have changed much by the time you get out. This guy could simply be an all around RW hate-spewing, tea-bagging, brainwashed nutcase that was pretty much of an asshat to begin with. You just can't peg him from the short time you were with him. I met all kinds in the military. The service was very right wing when I was active duty and a Reservist, and when I was a nurse at BAMC in civil service. Things have changed a great deal since then. Especially among the rank and file. A long war with multiple tours, a great amount of casualties, and no clear reason for having it to begin with, will do that to you. I can see where this guy shook you up. Maybe being around urban warfare shook me up a little (that's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it) because you handled it better than I ever could. I probably would have taken his cane away and......not played air guitar with it.

[Bjorn Against]

100. Thanks for the post, you have an insightful analysis

I realize that not all vets are the same, we have had vets from both Iraq and Afghanistan stop by our vigil before and they were incredibly supportive. There was one Afghanistan vet who told us a story about how he came home from the war and locked himself in his room for two weeks because he was unable to talk to anyone about what he had witnessed. He was another friend who was also a vet and they were both facing redeployment, and they were both extremely happy that we were out there.

I realize that the guy that harassed us last night may well have been a really mean person before he went to war, but that doesn't change what I wrote. The fact is that he was used in this war and he is the victim of violence so I still feel sorry for him even if he has always been consumed by hatred, I just can't imagine what it would be to go through life like that. He is most definitely not a happy person and whether he was so filled with hate before the war or not he obviously needs help.

[Echo In Light]

28. It's the same pity one feels when family members of military personnel freak-fucking-out....

... whenever they encounter anti-war types, and/or criticism of the War Machine in general. On one level you really do sympathize, b/c it's a loved one, or even a close friend of their's whose enlisted, and so it's easy to understand why their subjective reaction is often so volatile since people in that situation are of course mired deeply within powerful emotional inducements to uphold and cling to the fantasy/propaganda alone, while attacking/disavowing critical objectivity as either of those positions/perceptions carries w/it specific social rewards and punishments, etc

[Mari333]

30. yes, it is. I was attacked by people at the beginning of the Iraq war

who were families of soldiers, when I stepped up and called it out as a lie. My stepson and son were soldiers at the time, one of them in Iraq. when the other families in the unit found out I was protesting the war, they started calling me out, called my poor stepsons commander in Iraq and told HIM to tell ME to stop protesting the war...basically infringing on MY 1st amendment rights..

They couldnt imagine that their little boy or girl had been sent there for a LIE.

[havocmom]

29. You read him accurately. Deluded, exploited, abused, damaged, clinging to delusion

because the truth is more than he can handle.

There is a war raging within many wingers. They are at war within themselves because part of their being senses reality and part of it fights to maintain delusion. There is war and rage inside, and admitting that would mean letting go some of the fragile grasp they have on their delusions. They can't do that, they are not strong enough. So the aim the rage at all who challenge their delusions with facts that support reality.

If we would just shut up and go along with their fantasies, they could maintain their personal delusions with less effort. The drunk is fine if someone keeps pouring, but cut the drunk off, and there will be a fight.

We won't be enablers so they throw some pretty dangerous tantrums in hopes of intimidating us into going along to get along. Drunk on delusions, some will go to extremes to keep the drinks coming.

Only, we love our nation too much to be dishonest. We won't agree, enable, and reinforce their delusions. They can't intimidate us. We won't let bullies rule.

Knew this was coming. Know it will get worse.

We pay a lot for not supporting good mental health practices as a society. The airways are full of activists for bad mental health, because profits are easier with a deluded populace.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

37. +1

well said.

[Seedersandleechers]

57. Wish I could recommend your post

[Enthusiast]

67. You said it right, havocmom. nt

[mascarax]

32. Bjorn, how did it end? Did he have his 'final say' and leave?

It makes me sad too.
Thanks for sharing and your continued protests outside Kline's office.

[Bjorn Against]

78. Yes, he was on his tirade for a few minutes and then he left.

My hope is that we won't be seeing him again.

[Turbineguy]

34. It's a terrible thing

but he's one of the reasons Rush is paid $50 million per year.

[Mopar151]

36. I wish you could have introduced him to Max Cleland

Are there any Iraq/Afghan/Desert Storm vets who are willing to hang with your group? Limbaugh and his ilk claim that "libruls" are to blame for dandruff, jock itch, and logus of the bogus, and only another vet (IMHO) will be able to talk him down. I wish y'all could have seen my Dad when Ollie North was testifying before Congress - "barracks commando" was one of his kinder comments.

My Dad was a disabled WW2 combat vet, who read voraciously, especially military history. The book that really helped him "get" Vietnam was "A Bright and Shining Lie" by John Paul Vann. A couple of his stories about occupied France foretold, at least for me, that Dr. Evil Cheney's whole 'welcomed with flowers" deal was a pantload, and was based on anything but reality.
What would have made him livid, though, would have been the military's treatment of returning vets, like the whole "personality defect" hustle.

[maxpower]

40. Sad story

Just another pawn in the never ending game of empire.


Happy Thanksgiving peace and love to you all,

Max

[Love Bug]

41. "Garbage in -- garbage out"

What else can one expect from someone like that? When you fill your mind with hatred, that's what you'll spew.

Guys like him are to be pitied and kept at a distance. You can't engage them because they are beyond all reason.

[Gregorian]

43. And this is how Nazi Germany began.

I have to wonder how far we'll go. As the economy takes a further dive, and people finally begin to really suffer, they'll vote for a strong leader. Not a good leader, but a strong one. Which translates to bad, if you ask me.

And this is also why I've been screaming for ages about a multiplicity of things that all seem unrelated, but are part of the same slope this country, and most of the world, are sliding down.

I'm rather pessimistic about where it's all going now. And I'm frightened.


By the way, I wanted to add that his hate won't go away. There were Nazis who murdered, and believe it was right to this day. And there were Germans who voted for any number of reasons. And this man is angry about something, and another man is angry about something completely different, yet they'll translate into two terms for a Bush, for example. People hoped Hitler would fade away. That's why they didn't take a bigger stand in getting him out of the way. And hope isn't going to change these angry men.

Aside from some very serious things that we cannot change, education, health care, a truthful media, and a few other things could turn this nightmare around. But short of that, I don't see much hope.

[Enthusiast]

68. You are right, Gregorian.

The parallels with Nazi Germany are manifold. We have to take this RW radio hate speech seriously. Limbaugh is the modern day equivalent of Joseph Goebbels.

[treestar]

44. Thank you for standing on that corner

I would wonder if the leg story is really true, there is no way to know it. Right wingers think that being in the military gives people an authority to force you into supporting the war they served in. Then if there are members of the military who are against the war or question it, they switch and start calling them "traitors."

If he really was injured there, he can't separate recognition of his contribution from support for the war itself and unfortunately, listening to Limbaugh does nothing to help him do that.

[pleah]

46. If he threatened physical violence, why didn't you call the police? n/t

[Bjorn Against]

79. The police would have probably given him an award

The Burnsville Police Department has been trying to chase us away from this intersection for the past two years, it has gotten so bad that the ACLU has had to step in to defend us. The police are not on our side and if we were to call them for anything they would probably find a way to use it against us. Seriously if you want to know how bad it has gotten follow the link below to read the story:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6542710

[pleah]

88. Thank you for the link,

I miss a lot these days. I have a hard time weeding through all the threads.

[pleah]

89. I completely understand now.

How very sad. :( I will keep you in my thoughts while you fight the good fight.

[Qutzupalotl]

47. Why does he hate Americans?

[mitchum]

48. "Quit making me a stupid dupe!"

[daggahead]

50. It is too bad you couldn't have stopped his tirade ...

and tried to talk reason to him. Sad that he cannot see how Limbaugh has pulled the wool over his eyes.

[Uncle Joe]

51. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Bjorn Against.:thumbsup:

[crazyjoe]

52. why the hell are you war protesting at a republicans office??

you do realize we hold the office of president, the house and a super majority in the senate.
the republicans can't do anything without the support of the democrats. Normally we protest to change things, what are you
trying to change by wasting your tuesdays protesting someone who doesn't have the power to do anything?
I remember the good ol days when we could blame everything bad on George Bush, those days are gone my friend.

[Bjorn Against]

81. I believe this is the first time I have been told that on this site...

I have been told by a few on this site that I should not protest at all, I have been told by others that I should only protest Republicans and never criticize Democrats, but I have never been told by anyone on this site that I should protest only against Democrats but stay away from Republicans.

For your information I am a pretty non-partisan person and if a politician deserves to be protested I will protest them whether they are Republican or Democrat. If you think the Republicans have no influence however you are wrong, they still have a vote in Congress and they will vote against us every time and all they need is to get the Blue Dogs to vote with them and they can screw over big time. John Kline is my Misrepresentative, I live in his district but he does not represent me one bit and I am going to make sure that people know that.

[crazyjoe]

110. where did I say to stay away from republicans and only

protest democrats. Nice try putting words in my mouth. (not really)
what happened to all the talk about getting out of iraq i heard before the election? Oh ya, nevermind.

[Bjorn Against]

111. I have been protesting against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001

I am still protesting against the wars, and next week I will be protesting Obama on the day he announces the troop increase because I am consistent in my principles whether it is a Republican or Democrat in office.

When you asked me "why the hell are you war protesting at a republicans office??" it sure seemed to heavily imply that you don't think I should protest Republicans. I did not put any words in your mouth, I read you words exactly as they were written.

[GoneOffShore]

93. Your name says it all.

[Martin Eden]

53. BIG K&R

You are exactly right. That man is a victim, and ultimately you/we are standing up for our citizens in uniform so that they are not called upon to make sacrifices on the basis of lies.

[RedCloud]

55. That's it. Off with his head.

[valerief]

56. Once I built a railroad...

Buddy, can you spare a dime?

This story never ends. Empire-building requires, to do its bidding, obedient brawn with guns and a stupid/distracted populace.

[Enthusiast]

60. There are millions of

Vietnam veterans that remain in denial just like the Iraq War veteran in your story. They refuse to entertain the idea that "their war" was not a righteous cause.

I consider it part of the PTSD. It can get ugly with veterans of both wars.

Rush Limbaugh-master of misinformation and military deferments, contributes to the anger.

[nikto]

63. SOMEBODY...Give the poor dude 1000 micrograms of LSD and call me in a month

!!

[NICO9000]

70. Please be careful if this guy shows up again

I would be afraid he'll come back with a gun. If he is a vet (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), he probably did have to kill people in Iraq. It would be horrible if he went off on you folks since his constant exposure to Limbaugh will just keep ginning up the hatred and anger in him.

[Bjorn Against]

75. A friend just sent me a beautiful e-mail in response to this post...

Hi Bjorn,
thanks for sharing this story. What you described is basically what we went through almost every Friday when I was on the corner in Fresno. It just made me more determined that i had to be out there. But we knew we could be hurt or worse. Sometimes they would scream at you so hard, that spit would hit your face. We were called all sorts of names, and consistantly told we hated the troops . Every Friday, we never knew if their rage was going to turn into an act of violence, and sometimes the look in their eyes you didn't know if they even knew. That is why a person should never ever be alone when protesting.

It is like they take all their pain and blast it at you. But your calmness, might heal some of their anger. I wasn't always calm. I often would blast back, and one of the peace people would put a hand on my shoulder from behind and calm me. I often wonder what they think when they leave, and the fact we didn't get hostile back. Does that make them question themselves, and the rightwing radio they hear?

We even had people who screamed at us saying they were in Desert Storm or Vietnam and ends up they had never even been in service. the guy from Vietnam came very close to striking me when I argued back, but one of the guys held his arm. He was just an angry rightwinger, and was never in the service. After about 3 months a group Free Republic (Freepers) counter-protested us, and they posted their actions with imbelishment on their website Free Republic. Their threats of violence were over the top. This was reported and screen prints saved to give to police but they never did anything other than stand near us and make sure give us a ticket if we stepped off the curb to hand out flyers.

One thing that helped me, was Ghandi's saying. 1st they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight (or yell) at you, then you win. that was like a mantra in my head to try and keep me call.

When the news report that Obama is going to send me troops, it hit me harder than I expected. I am having an extremely hard time concentrating at work, and almost on the verge of tears. So if I am like this, what must the Veterans, military, and their friends and family be going through?

I wouldn't be surprised if we have more aggressiveness towards us. They want to believe we are the enemy. And sadly, I am helplessly concerned that there will be suicides and homicides in the coming days/weeks because of us not pulling out of Afghanistand and Iraq.

I would have posted this on DU, but can't do it from work, have to wait till I get him. but Bjorn if you want to post my response to you on DU,, just say from a friend. that is ok for me.

[santamargarita]

76. Fucked up Fox News and hate radio are responsible...

when do we cut the head off the snake?

[sasquatch]

92. When we get the people to begin to admit the snake exists

[frustrated_lefty]

80. The correct response is "thank you."

Whether or not you agree with him, this man has done more than many of us to directly "protect our nation" as he thought necessary.

I'll happily throw down with any neocon chickenhawk when war is the topic. Vets, though...right-minded, wrong-minded, they put their money where their mouths were, they've been screwed by the government and neglected by the very people they thought they were fighting for. They deserve a simple thank you, as do their families.

If/when they get in your face, keep your thoughts to yourself, and thank them for the generous sacrifice they have made, and apologize that that sacrifice was necessary. I understand the impulse, but unless you've made the same sacrifice, you just sound like an ungrateful putz to the people who have genuinely suffered from these wars.

[Bjorn Against]

82. I am supposed to thank him for wishing my family dead in a terrorist attack?

I showed this man a great deal of compassion considering the way he treated me, but I am not going to thank him after he threatened violence against my family and friends. I don't understand how not thanking a person who tells me my family deserves to die makes me an "ungrateful putz".

[GoneOffShore]

94. He did a job - like a carpenter or a steelworker.

"The old, old lie" - Dulce et decorum est

http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html

[zanne]

83. It's hard to feel compassion for someone like that...

But I think that's what he needs.

[Buzz Clik]

85. Top ten all time OP! Thank you for so many things.

Thanks for your activism.

Thanks for your restraint in the face of anger.

Thanks for your insight into this man's invisible wounds.

You are an example for us all. Thank you.

[JEB]

87. Rush polluting

Is Rush still a routine feature on Armed Forces Radio? Can't we do better for our troops than this assboil phony?

[get the red out]

90. Thank you

You summed up what is going on with the right beautifully. And it is not just veterans who can't come to terms with the fact that they have been lied to. There are plenty of people who listen to Limbaugh and his ilk who have never seen a war or been in any personal danger that would have reacted the same way. The propaganda machine of the right is incredibly effective. We fight it every day in our society. It is a big part of the reason our country is in the shape it is in.

[pitchforksandtorches]

95. Volunteers can find sympathy - in the dictionary between shit and syphilis.

n/t

[scarface2004]

97. you mean rush limpbaw the war hero?

the guy that single handedly defeated the viet cong, thus preventing the dominoes from falling! that rush limpasshole! thought so!

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

101. when asked if you'd burn the flag, say no I'll wash the blood out of it"

I have a friend that took a flag and a bucket to a protest, and he wore rubber boots.
He washed the flag in the bucket.

Awesome guy, this friend of mine.

[Stumbler]

103. Beautiful. I don't think I could express that point any better than you just did.

[rhett o rick]

105. Willful ignorance is incurable. Sad. nt

[niyad]

113. can't rec, but will kick. your compassion and understanding are truly remarkable. it is even

possible that, at some deep level, all of you got through to him.

[TwentyFive]

116. Limbaugh - should be tried and EXECUTED for treason.

Last year, Limbaugh signed a $400 million 8 year contract.

It is a scam. Halliburton, Exxon, etc. pay Limbaugh to go on radio and gin up enough hate so voters will elect republicans. The $50 million a year expense is a footnote to any company getting $10 billion 'no bid' contracts. But for the American public? Lives lost, poverty, and a nation that is dangerously less safe.

The solution?

Limbaugh (and the others) should be investigated for treason. If found guilty, most of them should get life in prison. At the very least, the small time ones should be treated like those 'kiddie porn kings' and never be allowed near a microphone or media outlet again for the remainder of their lives.

Limbaugh...being the most egregious case...would certainly qualify for lethal injection.

[TxVietVet]

118. The kkkonservanazis like limpballs

want nothing more than to destroy Obama and anyone associated with the President. That's why it's a continous demonizing of the President and Democrats. Now, they have the bible-thumping retards peddling tee shirts with a bible verse number and to pray for Obama. It's all about "killing the oppresive ruler". After Rachel Maddow had a short report on the issue with Frank Schaeffer, I think the tee shirts have disappeared. If I find the link, I'll post it. Schaeffer is saying that the right-wing whacko thumpers are saying it's okay to kill Obama.

Read the story on Rachel Maddow's show which was covered by Huffington Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/18/rachel-maddow-frank-schae_n_362415.html

http://www.frankschaeffer.net/home.html

Crusader Patriots. Patriots my ass.

http://www.cafepress.com/CrusaderPatriot

THEY, the right-wing thumpers and the KKKonservanazis, would love nothing more than for some idiot to attack Obama, his wife or his kids.

They are a sick bunch.