Losing my religion...

[scarletwoman]

(I originally posted this as a comment in another thread, in response to an OP that basically asserted that unhappy progressives were part of a Republican strategy to weaken the Democratic party.)

Discontent on the left has absolutely nothing to do Republican "strategy".

We don't need any Republican help to come to the conclusion that both parties are just two heads of the same oligarchy -- it merely takes the fecklessness of our own elected Dems.

I'm 60 years old. I grew up in a politically active, lifelong Democratic voting union family. My first political memory is having the difference between Democrats and Republicans explained to me by my mom and dad when I was in grade school: Republicans were the party for rich people, Democrats were the party for the workers.

My folks were kids during the Depression, they never forgot what FDR accomplished for families like theirs. My maternal grandfather was put to work through the WPA, which saved his family from near starvation. My paternal grandparents were able to save their modest farm because of FDR policies.

In my extended family -- grandparents, aunts and uncles, great aunts and great uncles, second cousins, etc. -- anyone not voting for Democrats would have been shunned and disowned. I grew up fully invested in the family faith: the Democratic party was on our side, Republicans were the enemy.

So, from the time I was old enough to vote, I faithfully voted for Democrats every single election, local and national -- and I never missed an election. I never once entertained a single thought of ever doing otherwise. I proudly proclaimed myself a liberal decade after decade, without hesitation or equivocation, no matter how much liberalism was being maligned. Throughout my 20s and 30s, when I moved around a lot and lived in a number of different states, I always made sure I was registered to vote wherever I was living at the time, and faithfully showed up on every election day to vote for Democrats.

I find it extremely insulting to see people blaming my current disaffection, and the disaffection of others like me, on some sort of stealth Republicanism. My disaffection arose during the Clinton administration, watching atrocities like NAFTA and banking deregulation and Plan Columbia being pushed and championed.

I've watched the Democratic party -- the party that was supposed to be for the workers -- give us over to the tender mercies of the corporatocracy and Wall Street, time and again. It was the Clinton Third Way, New Democrats, DLC that sent me over the edge.

I didn't want to give up my lifelong faith in the Democratic party, THEY broke faith with me and mine. My 83 year old dad feels the same way, my mother, bless her heart, passed away last year. The Democratic party of today (excepting a very few individual pols) is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Owner Class, a species of aristocrat that maintains a veneer of "noblesse oblige", but which can be relied upon to champion the interest of the Owner Class when push comes to shove.

As for Obama, well, he acts just like I now expect Democrats to act. For a brief moment in time, I came close to getting caught up in the whole "hope and change" thing, but I sobered up right quick -- his choices for his economic team did the trick. It's not worth it to care very much, so I don't bother posting rants about being disappointed, I figure it's to be expected, nothing more.

I think electoral politics is a sham. I don't think I'll bother voting anymore, or I'll vote third party. The oligarchs have control, no elected politician is going to do a damn thing about it, their butts are covered no matter which party is in power. We already saw that during the Bush years -- the Dems just blithely went along, not making waves, collecting their campaign contributions.

I'm done with the whole fucking charade -- but don't you dare accuse me of being a handmaiden for the GOP. It was the Democrats that put me here, the Democrats that have betrayed the faith of generations of my family. No one else.

sw

[Skittles]

1. I hear you

a lot of DUers don't seem to understand the alienation a LOT of us long-time Dems are feeling

[scarletwoman]

3. Thank you. I really do understand the resistance to acknowledging that we are being fucked over

by those who are purportedly on "our side". It's a lot like finally getting up the gumption to walk out on an abusive relationship -- "But, but, I know he really loves me!"

sw

[pscot]

23. There are different kinds of abuse

This is more like mental abuse. Lack of respect. Promises unkept. Unmet needs. We go to a party and he ignores us. We stand in the corner while he spends the evening making eyes at Republicans. People put us down and he doesnt't seem to care. The people he choses as friends don't like us much. It all adds up. This is not the prince charming who swept us off our feet a year ago.

[scarletwoman]

66. "The people he choses as friends don't like us much." Very poignant.

Well said.

Thank you,
sw

[northernlights]

191. more than mental abuse

There is clear financial abuse. And complete betrayal.

He buys diamonds for his mistress...at our expense.
She lives in a mansion, we live in a spare room in the basement, or a box under a bridge.
We cook the steak and lobster that she eats...we eat porridge or from the local pantry.
Her children will go to prep school, Harvard and Yale at our expense, and be exempt from the dirty work.
Our children, if they are lucky, will go to vo-tech or community college. If unlucky, they can always join the military to fight her dirty wars.

And the list goes on...

[Jackpine Radical]

157. "But, but, I know he really loves me!"

"And he's changed, he promised he won't hit me any more. He quit drinking this time for good. Next time will be different."

Right on, SW.

The Rahms of the world "know" they can ignore us crazy leftists, because we got noplace else to go, right? Just like the battered woman--no car, no money, no job, no house. What else she gonna do? 'Course she'll be back, just as soon as her week at the shelter is up.

Oh, I'll keep voting for Obey and Russ; I don't really feel betrayed by either of them (although I get upset with Dave's pragmatism sometimes, and he avoids me when he sees me coming), but on the national level, they're really going to have to show me something. If healthcare turns into the disaster it looks like it's becoming, if there is no major investment in a GREEN "stimulus package"--in other words, if the Dems stay on the track they've chosen, I'm voting green or something.

[scarletwoman]

259. Yeah, you get it, for sure.

I've been that woman -- and I know very few women who haven't found themselves caught in that scenario to some degree or another.

It's always the same rationalization -- if I just faithfully hold on to my love for the guy, he'll transform... eventually. I mean, Beauty and the Beast is a true metaphor, right? Been there, done that.

We lucky ones finally come to the realization that all our faithfulness don't mean shit. The guy's fucked up and I'm an idiot if I think I can "save" him.

My dad swears he's going to vote for any Green candidate that shows up on the ballot from now on. Apparently, WWII veterans like him are expendable to the "New Dems".

No surprise, then, that old hippies like me are expendable, too.

Many thanks for posting on my little thread,
sw
:loveya:

[Jackpine Radical]

263. …and thanks for creating it.

There's a lot of disillusionment springing up on the left, amongst all the cheerleading. Here in Chippewa the same gang is down there on the same corner every Saturday, protesting the war. They were there under Bush. They're still there. Half of them are vets, including the ringleader, an old Army doc who spends a lot of the rest of his time running a free clinic. They thought they had won the election but their war goes on and on and nobody has given them a reason to go home yet.

[scarletwoman]

268. "They thought they had won the election but their war goes on and on and nobody has given them

...a reason to go home yet."

Just goes to show who's really in charge, eh? The MIC in all its glory.

Along with Big Finance, the National Security State, the neo-libs, the neocons, and all the rest.

Zappa nailed it: "The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it’s profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater."

Peace,
sw

[glitch]

166. More of the SHAME

Excellent thread scarletwoman, you speak for me. :cry:

[curlyred]

34. as do I

It's tough after all these years, something I don't think a younger generation might understand.

[stopbush]

187. The OP has got it backwards. She's not losing her "religion," she's being asked

to have a religious belief in today's D Party. That would be to have a belief in something that has no factual basis, but is based on opinion and some nebulous idea from the past.

The fact is that the old-time D Party stood for something specific, something in opposition to the Rs. That Party had specific goals and accomplishments that it could point to. Nobody confused a D with an R back in the day.

Today's belief in the D Party IS like having a religious belief, in that we have certain old time tenets that we cling to faithfully, in spite of the fact that we don't see them leading the ethos of the Party.

Politics - like everything else - loses its power when religious constructs replace realities on the ground.

[roguevalley]

67. ditto. We are dems from the time of Thomas Jefferson and we

have a religion called democratic politics. We would no more miss a vote than fly. But this is impossible. I want to hit Lieberman with a shovel and then turn it on Reid and the rest. They have a fucking majority and yet they cry and wimp around. No one gives a damn about their fucking feelings. People are hungry. I am also despondent to learn that Obama won't sign the landmine ban. Yes, change you can believe in.

[femrap]

162. T. Jefferson

was a hypocrite as well....he owned slaves.

[roguevalley]

283. I bet there isn't a single living or dead person that meets your

purist standards and that is a shame. He did good work and started a process that has grown over 230 years. Thank god he was there when we needed him. It's wrong to judge an eighteenth century person by twenty-first century standards. There isn't a historian that will tell you that is okay because it erases the good from view. No one will ever be acceptable if you do that. In two hundred years, if our species is still around, no one will find us acceptable either.

[Enthusiast]

91. They act like 2008 was

our first election.

[bikingaz]

247. The only message they understand is being voted out

Get rid of all incumbents.
Do it in 2010.
Repeat in 2012.
Repeat until they get it.

[knixphan]

251. ZACTLY.

[mitchtv]

2. President Palin ?

only kidding of course. I feel the same. since I am Gay , I knew at the McClurkin/ Rick warren point to not expect anything

[scarletwoman]

5. Sheesh! Your subject line had me all ready to blast you two ways to Sunday!

Very glad to read the body of your post. :hug:

sw

[NJmaverick]

4. The republicans can't take credit for the Obama and Demcratic party hating liberals

the GOP can just reap the rewards from the foolish words and actions of those short sighted progressives.

[scarletwoman]

6. True. The Democratic party does a fine job of hating liberals all on its own.

:P

[mitchtv]

7. Rahm Emmanuel/ Ken Salazar

and the rest should have been a clue too

[scarletwoman]

9. Yep. Summers, Geithner, Gates -- pretty damn clear. (nt)

[JDPriestly]

98. I realized recently that Rahm Emmanuel is a cheap opportunist.

He is corruption incarnate. His proximity to Obama really blows Obama's cover. What a facade. What a fake.

[704wipes]

258. He is probably CIA too just like Clinton's

chief of staff, Panetta, turned out to be.

[tnlefty]

31. And pushing us out at the local party level...

my experience anyway.

I'm sure that I'll be volunteering in the Gov.'s race here 'cause any Dem would be better than Zach fucking Wamp in the Gov.'s mansion.

Our life circumstances aren't the same - my family used to be republican, but I rejected that by the time post registration and my first vote. I hear ya, I'm in my 5th decade, and I won't stop criticizing what the Democratic Party has become. In my early years the repubs weren't nearly as bad, not into union busting, hating on the gays, women, etc.

I was considered a conservative/moderate democrat. Now, I'm considered part of the leftwing, lunatic fringe...I haven't changed and my recovering republican mother who voted for Obama is looking for someone to the left of him.:wow:

The commonalities: the right has become too corporate and batshit crazy for Mom, reproductive rights, the giveaways to Wall Street, NAFTA and other trade agreements, lied into wars and draining of the treasury, torture, the influence of religion into politics...

I'd be willing to be that if my Mom signed on here, she'd be slammed, so how much have the 2 major parties changed? You keep on keepin' on. :hug:

[AllyCat]

148. That's why OP said "two heads of the same monster"

[anonymous171]

27. A true liberal party would dominate our politics, imo. Free Healthcare = Tons more votes

Centrists are the cancer that is killing the democratic party and they need to be eliminated.

[femrap]

163. Corporations are the cancer....IMHO.

They pay them to be Centrists.

[Raster]

205. Now this is the post I would recommend many times over!!!

Corporations are the cancer. Centrists are the collaborators.

[knixphan]

253. Bin-Go!

[Overseas]

170. That's what mystified me when the Clintons went for national health insurance too.

Freeing the American people from the terror of health insecurity would have made Democrats really popular in future elections and yet they didn't do it.

Some of the same people arguing now that "we can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" were there when they supposedly did that back in the early 90's. 93? We knew that same truism back then too. We knew Canada's system started small and built up through the provinces. We also knew how popular Medicare had been, how low its overhead was, and how healthcare expenses put our businesses at a disadvantage against our industrial competitors.

Yet I was treated to watching an automakers' lobbyist on CSpan back then giving a talk about how our expensive union benefits were handicapping our industry. She gave her whole talk aimed at getting our unions to compromise, with nary a mention of the fact that our competitors' governments subsidized their health care expenses-- either through a mixture of public and private systems (a.k.a. Medicare) or through a more fully socialized system (like the VA).

Even as news chat pundits were promoting international "free" trade, we didn't see our business lobbyists pushing for national health insurance to give them a level playing field. It was as though the growing medical industrial complex's lobbyists got the other business groups to remain silent by vowing to push for regulation of their industries if they dared to support regulating health insurance.

Instead of the obvious assistance of having government subsidize health care expenses through our taxes like other countries were doing, we were treated to more and more lectures about how our demanding unions were screwing things up for us. That just confirmed for me that we certainly didn't have a "free market" at work. If we did, thousands of businesses would have been lobbying for national health insurance for decades already.

We didn't even have a Democratic party pragmatically dedicated to increasing its popularity for decades to come. If we did, they would have passed national health insurance last time. We would have been a few years into finally having health security when the 2000 election rolled around. If our people had become able to see their own doctors with Medicare for All, free from the terror of medical bankruptcies, it wouldn't have mattered that the corporate media's cute news-chat brats were telling us Al Gore was too dorky and the Kennebunkport Cowboy was a better candidate because people would want to have a beer with him.

My dear Democratic legislators didn't assure themselves of easier future victories by passing national health insurance last time. Now we're pretending that was because our Democrats were just too insistent on coverage for all. Pretending they didn't know that old truism being pushed on us now about half-a-loaf being better than none. We knew the Canada story back then too. We knew how popular Medicare was back then too.

Candidate Obama did talk about single payer health care. I've wanted it for a long time so I heard that in his campaigning when he said it, and supported him in part because of that. Yes, I could tell he was also promoting himself as a more practical Democrat, but that was okay because single payer was the most economically viable option. He could argue for it on solid business grounds, to back up the moral imperative of changing our cruel system that allows people to go bankrupt from medical emergencies even if they've dutifully paid their premiums for years.

I hoped President Obama would push through some of the progressive legislation our country needs by using pragmatic business criteria-- we need to control costs, so we're introducing a single payer public option; look at the numbers. Our international competitors have taxpayer subsidized healthcare, so should we. The private sector has been unable to defy the quarterly profit imperative, choosing instead to hike its profits by 428% during Bush Rule, so the trigger of decency has been blown off its hinges and taxpayers need to intervene with Medicare Part E. Taxpayers bailed out our financial sector without getting any guarantees to keep them in their homes. We needed a break after the Wall Street looting and freedom from the terror of emergency medical bankruptcy would have been a great place to start.

All the pieces were in place to pitch Medicare Part E this time. Want to control costs? There is the data. Want to help people being evicted from their homes? At least let them see the doctor without fear of losing the car on top of losing their homes. We're in the worst financial crisis since the great depression-- the perfect backing to give us more Good Government. To have our taxes directly and tangibly benefit lots of people. And to do that with a MIXTURE of public and private elements- medical services privately delivered; payments and cost controls publicly administered, accountable to us all-- a.k.a. Medicare for All.

But the administration I'd hoped would promote progressive policies for solid pragmatic reasons chose not to do so. Chose instead to favor bipartisan posturing that served corporate interests rather than humanitarian goals that would help small businesses and a desperate public bankrupted by the "wisdom of the private sector."

Then I tried to defend my pragmatic progressive president by thinking perhaps he was standing back to get our Democratic legislators to assert themselves. But alas, even if the president was hanging back to allow our legislators to lead the charge, too many of them took the easy way out, hiding behind the Bipartisan Lie to protect their private sector campaign funding. Then too many of our Democrats also chose to hide behind the manufactured discontent of the right wing PR funded town hall storming of August 2009.

Even with the economic collapse to fuel the push for pragmatism-- low overhead plus high patient satisfaction = Medicare -- our Democrats didn't band together to push Medicare Part E as the most effective public option.

That has been really depressing.

[anonymous171]

233. I agree completely. Dems won't stand up for the future.

Centrists only exist to preserve the status quo.

[Overseas]

245. I guess because defying corporate power brings immediate peril to them.

We've seen how many millions the right wingers are ready to spend trashing Democrats, and their professional PR firms got "genuine grass roots groups" to stir up fear and hatred in desperate populations and got them to storm town halls to "keep the government out of our Medicare" and such,

and the GOP demonstrated how they could manipulate elections and overcome the country's preference for a war hero president to re-impose The Torture Team whose privatized military services didn't give our own troops enough armor, for four more years of rack and ruin.

I guess that is pretty terrifying to witness, if you're a politician. First the Supreme Court coup d'etat, then the dribs & drabs method of election stealing. Death by a thousand cuts.

Then the Democratic landslide was either too great to overcome, or they let President Obama in to toy with our dreams one more time. To attack our Democratic president's legitimacy and push him to the right to demoralize us progressives once again.

The GOP hounded Bill Clinton mercilessly, and got him to move to the right. I'm sorry that our Democrats didn't try a new tack this time-- just go on and be super FDR-- use the financial meltdown as the crisis to push through Medicare for All and hundreds of thousands of infrastructure jobs, to take care of the deferred maintenance left by the reckless Bush Gang and get going on retrofitting so we'd have something to show in Copenhagen.

As long as we're going to get battered by the GOP, may as well make it worth it. Push through super progressive policies (because they're the most economically sensible in the long term) because even mildly liberal moves will be characterized as wild commie plots.

[KakistocracyHater]

292. should the Lefties truly pass a total canopy health plan they'll be majority

for AT LEAST 1 whole generation. Look at what the posters have described of their parents' or grand-parents' loyalty to FDR. THAT is what is scaring the GOP, & they're lying & hoping the monkeys in the 'middle' fall for their bs. An avalanche of loyalty for life, wow, I hope the Left gets it.

[katandmoon]

8. K&R and ICAM.

[bleever]

10. Dear sw, it is possible

that objects in mirror are more promising than they appear.

But it takes. So. Long.

To undo all the damage that the Bush administration did, standing on the shoulders of giants like Reagan and Nixon and Poppy.

I think of us kind of like the archeologists of democracy. It may take a long time to reclaim it, but damn it, we know it's there.

:thumbsup:

[scarletwoman]

16. If we're going to "reclaim democracy" - which I doubt will happen in my lifetime (what's left of it)

-- it WON'T be through electoral politics. It will ONLY happen through a social movement rising up from the roots.

Partisan politics is a dead end. The Owner Class has made sure of that.

sw

[anonymous171]

33. Our system is fine. We just need to make sure not to vote for the corporate whores

When President Obama starts acting like President Palin its time to kick him out. Same with our senators and representatives. No more chess, no more "strategery." Time to tell them to either represent us or get the fuck out.

[loudsue]

71. Our system is NOT fine. The corporate whores OWN the VOTING MACHINES.

And the media. We can't vote 'em out because we never voted them in. As Scarletwoman said before, it's going to take a major social movement from the grassroots to clean up this mess, if we ever CAN clean it up.

[snot]

74. Thanks for making those points!

Can't believe how many DU'er's seem oblivious to them.

[ChiciB1]

122. And "Snot" I Agree With You Too! Are We Really So Out Of Touch?? n/t

[anonymous171]

78. Well then abolish voting machines. Problem solved.

Although really I think the whole voting machine paranoia is just hot air generated by activists who refuse to believe that their shitty politicians were rejected by the populace.

[loudsue]

81. Then you obviously haven't done your homework.

The research is unquestionable. The system is as corrupt as it comes.

[Enthusiast]

93. Said like a true GOP believing

stealth Republican.

Gore and Kerry are not shitty politicians rejected by the populace.

[anonymous171]

142. By "shitty" I meant "ineffective." Gore and Kerry may be good men,

but their campaigns were incredibly inept. Kerry especially.

[Enthusiast]

212. They both actually won the fucking election!

Stop being a Republican asshole or get off DU!

[anonymous171]

232. BARELY. nt

[tonysam]

266. +1,000,000 n/t

[Usrename]

116. That's right, exit polling isn't science, it's just paranoia and hot air.

:sarcasm:

[glitch]

169. +18181 nt

[nashville_brook]

196. well done -- !

[glitch]

202. Thanks! :hi: nt

[loudsue]

211. So true, glitch. Memories are short, and few people remember this little

gem of sabotage on our elections. Either they don't remember, or they were part of the problem. I can't tell which it is.

[Individualist]

206. +++

[Hannah Bell]

89. they're all whores. you can't even get in the running without whoring,

or buying elections, like bloomberg.

[WVRICK13]

92. How Do We Win

when the Corporate whores are the only ones with enough money to become the only candidates? The decks are stacked and we are playing against the casino.

[anonymous171]

144. Public Financing of elections. nt

[FatDave]

165. That seems to be the key to 90% of our problems.

But how do we get congresspeople to vote for having they money tree chopped down?

[jotsy]

177. By going all in.

I expect a lot of flack for what I'm about to say, but what I think may be a way to turn the tide is to STOP the flow of money to the corporatocracy. That's mortgages, credit cards, health insurance, car payments. The problem is everybody's gotta do it, all at once.

If that's too radical, consider how you can make your holiday purchases without giving so much business to the large scale vendors.

A monetary coup of sorts sure beats bloodshed in my mind. I see a chance that if the PTB has a more viable consumer base elsewhere that we, and the dollar are toast and the only leverage we have now will be gone. From there, checkout the concept of Mon dragon. A business model designed as employee owned where profits are evenly dispersed among the workers.

I've been saying since the early 90's that bipartisan politics are not in the best interests of the governed. Between the posturing, the persuading, the persecuting, and most of all the pilfering and pandering, the people's business is lost in the drama created to protect the profiteers. Break these two tall walls that would close off all other roads and start supporting as many progressive independents as possible, now between election cycles.

[Greyhound]

158. No, the system is rigged to ensure that there is no choice. n/t

[knixphan]

255. Yep - If we all get off our couches,

We can at least make the most of our system, flawed as it may be.

Griping alone won't do it. Young folks in the street will surely help.

[Djinn]

40. the only way it's ever been done

FDR didn't make the choices he did purely because of his own beliefs, it was because people took to the streets, joined unions (and the Communist and Socialist parties) in droves and demanded their rights and made it clear that they'd take them if needs be.

[anonymous171]

42. Yep. The Second New Deal was created mostly to outflank his leftist opponents

[scarletwoman]

62. Hey, Djinn! Great to see you!

Pressure from below really is the only way that real change -- as opposed to the phony marketing strategy kind of "change" -- will happen.

Unfortunately, in this country full of TV- & credit card-addicted consumer zombies, there's faint hope of that at this time.

sw

[Djinn]

70. Unfortunately not exclusive to Americans

We had a "third way" government in Hawke/Keating before Clinton and it's amazing the number of people who refuse to acknowledge that the swing to corporate feudalism got it's best push under one of "our own". I've lost count of the number of self described lefties who have suddenly lost their anger over issues/stances/policies the current "Labor" government continued from Howards' days. They were vehemently opposed when they were implemented by an openly right wing government but not we've elected Rudd they're happy to shut up and shop.

[Usrename]

117. There ya go.

Obama is just a guy, he's not your boyfriend or savior or knight in shining armor. WE are the ones who must organize any resistance.

[Hannah Bell]

88. it's going on 1 year. he only gets 4, so he's used 1/4 of his time, & the best time,

when he had the most political capital.

i don't see obama even *fighting* for anything that matters to me, let alone accomplishing it.

[CrispyQ]

214. Excellent point.

He's squandered the best time of his term. When we lose seats in the House & Senate in 2010, he won't be able to get anything done.

[Mark D.]

154. Much Respect

For your view that it 'takes so long'. Yes, Stem Cell Research and a lot of other important things have been changed. Enough to produce a list that can be shown to those who wonder why we see the Iraq and Guantanamo deadlines moving farther away, likely escalation in Afghanistan, a watered down 'public option' in a bill that overall does not do enough to reign in the power of the insurance companies that mostly WROTE it for the Democrats. Keeping Bush's Patriot Act, Spying, and Indefinite Detention things quietly in place (little thunder from the MSM on the Patriot Act's near-complete renewals), well, if that's what we're waiting for, it's like watching a boat that was going straight into the ocean take a 'left turn', and instead, circle the coast of the shore you VOTED to be brought back to.

Larry Summers is one one of the 'three horsemen of the financial apocalypse', as Max Keiser stated so well recently. He's the president's top financial adviser. Timothy Geithner, who ran the most powerful Federal Reserve office before as Treasury Secretary now. Now guess who they are considering to replace him? The current CEO of JP Morgan Chase. The largest Hedge Fund, they invented the CDS, they went under David Rockefeller's control when Chase bought them, they write the checks for Medicare AND the 2nd largest health insurer United Health. They were made to look like heroes, in absorbing WaMu and Bear Stearns, the latter of which they helped collapse, along with Lehman Brothers they helped collapse. In other words...they were the main architects of this manufactured crisis.

Burn-He-Made-Off even used them for his primary bank, meaning, as always, that bank made more off those billions than he did. Now they want the 2nd most powerful man in that bank, the largest bank in America (it was the 3rd largest before the crisis, mission accomplished!), 2nd only to Rockefeller, arguably the most powerful CEO in THE WORLD to run the Treasury. Why don't we just let JP Morgan Chase merge with America. JP America Chase. How's that? Even Goldman Sachs, which is nearly 1/2 the financial people in this administration was a protege' to JP Morgan before their recent rise to power. The last real president to stand up to the bankers, the Vatican, the military industrial complex, the CIA, and the Federal Reserve was J.F.K. There is a reason why things are the way they are.

"It's just a handful of people that run everything, that's provable. I have this feeling, whomever is elected president, no matter what promises you've made on the campaign trail. When you win, you go into this smokey room with the twelve industrialist, capitalist shits that got you in there, and this screen comes down. It's a view of (edit: that horrible day in Dallas in 1963) from an angle you have never seen before, which looks suspiciously off the grassy knoll. The screen comes up, the lights come on, and they say to the new president, 'Any questions?'" - Bill Hicks.

[Bluebear]

11. You never liked Obama to begin with.

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

(Just to prepare you for what you can expect to hear.)

And. . . "I'm done with the whole fucking charade" - I will drink to that.

[Skittles]

36. THERE YOU ARE PT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OMG I'M SO GLAD TO SEE YOU!!! :hi:

[jonnyblitz]

54. I know I never did!!

:o

[SammyWinstonJack]

146. Well, I certainly DON'T like him now. The underside of the bus sucks!

x(

[QC]

132. You forgot the part about the pony.

And the poutrage. Must have poutrage.

[seabeyond]

145. i did. and i am fair sitting back watching and waiting. i still agree witht he post as far as

nafta, deregulation and other things that put us in this place today. continuations of what bush was doing.

[bvar22]

185. Continuation of what CLINTON did....

...which was a continuation of what Reagan did....

[seabeyond]

281. the continuation of bush i am talking about that disappoint me is nsa abuse

patriot act and some of the other bush practices he implamented.

nafta and deregulation, yes, clinton and yes reagan

[Nite Owl]

12. We are about the same age

I've never pulled the GOP lever and always voted but 2010 I may sit out. I'm tired of the betrayal, the being used. I've walked miles and knocked on doors, done the phone banking and made my contributions but that is over until we see some real change. You aren't alone by any means in how you feel. It's time to start rebuilding the Democratic party.

[CrispyQ]

213. I'm sick & tired of my vote being taken for granted.

The republican party is in disarray & continues to court the batshit crazy vote. However, the dems who continue to vote & act like republicans, are gonig to be surprised at how many of their liberal base, whose votes they count on cuz they know we won't vote repub/indy, will just stay home on election day. I see losses in the Senate & House in 2010 & possibly the White House in 2012.

The whole system is corrupt & rigged. The odds are better in Vegas than they are of getting a president who will buck the status quo.

[deutsey]

13. For the most part, I'm feeling like there's no one out there fighting for the interests

of people like me. Or very few are (like Bernie Sanders).

[mullard12ax7]

14. K&R!

Well said, as sad yet true as it is.

[tularetom]

15. There are still some "real" Democrats out there

Unfortunately none of them seem to be holding responsible positions in the Obama administration.

I share your frustration, but I'm not ready to toss it in yet. I'm 68 and still hopeful that the citizens of this country will wake the hell up and stop electing corporate slaves to responsible offices.

[immoderate]

17. Electing Obama was only half the job.

If the rest is to be done, it will be, as always, done in the streets. Maybe the college kids will get into it. The assault to them is less obvious than it was to the Vietnam generation, but it is no less a mess, and they're going to have to live with it. Let's see -- rising tuition and no jobs.

--imm

[JDPriestly]

102. Obama would be impervious to people in the streets.

Get real. Progressives in the streets would be beaten so hard by the
Obama administration that the entire movement would be damaged.

We e-mail. We call. We write. We go to meetings. Obama and the Democrats in Congress do not listen to us.

And, just for full disclosure -- I did not support
Obama during the primary, but I supported him and sacrificed to support him and help get him elected.

We lost the opportunity of a lifetime, the opportunity to save our country when we nominated him. It will be a long time before we get another chance. Obama has forsaken everything we progressives believe in. He is a sham.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

18. scarletwoman, I'm 58 and like you, was born a Democrat. My parents, although

not union workers, lived through the Depression, my father having to leave school at 12 to support his mother and sister, and my mother at 14 to help out her family. They adored FDR and Truman. My earliest political memory was of my parents enthusiasticly supported Adlai Stevenson for President. Then later on, driving to a whistle stop, hoping to have a glimpse of John Kennedy while he was campaigning.

I registered to vote as soon as I was old enough and have continued to vote straight Democratic ticket, but withheld my vote for Hillary Clinton in her re-election bid as my Senator. I never forgave her vote for the IWR.

When I pulled the lever for Obama, I hoped I was wrong about him, as his eloquent words and charisma offered the last iota of hope that I had. The minute he selected Rahm Emanuel as COS, I knew we were truly screwed. So no surprises here for me and I'm sick and tired and will never give my vote for someone ever again unless I truly believe in them.

The Democratic Party left me.

Thank you scarletwoman for being out there. :hug:

BTW...I have often said, Bill Clinton was the best Republican President we ever had.

[scarletwoman]

30. Thank you for your kind words.

I hate growing old watching my country be pillaged by the greedy sociopaths who control everything, completely enabled by every last institution that should have been watching out for the People. For my dad it's much worse, he knows he won't live long enough to see things get better -- he's so utterly embittered by the betrayal. :cry:

sw

[dgibby]

182. SW,

thanks for putting words to my feelings. I'll be 64 next month, my parents grew up during the depression, dad's whole family was Republican(it was a different party then). When I joined the Navy, I registered as an independent, but have always voted as a Dem.

I spent 22yrs in the Navy, serving my country, and was happy to do so, but it occurred to me that if I had to join today, I wouldn't do it. I don't know who changed more, me or the US, but it saddens me no end to see what's happened to my country.

I think it's too late to save us, but it would, imo, take a nationwide strike, a shut down of the entire country to fix what's wrong. No one going to work, buying anything, etc, and every one out on a picket line. Since that's probably not going to happen unless the economy gets much worse and the majority of people are hungry and homeless, I feel things are more than hopeless for us.

I'm glad I'm older, don't think I'd like to be a young person facing a life time of this mess. I feel so sorry for my nieces and nephews and their families.

Again, thanks for your op.

:hug:

[scarletwoman]

270. Thanks for your heartfelt post. It grieves me greatly, the world I've left my children.

My biggest comfort is that I brought them up to be non-comformist free-thinkers with the values that were handed down to me from my parents and grandparents.

They understand that what passes for "reality" in the mainstream is fraught with false values and twisted priorities. I know they'll have a hard time of it in many ways, but they'll also be in better shape than many of their peers because they know how to see clearly and survive with their own truth intact, in the midst of mass lies.

sw

[dgibby]

286. YOU didn't leave them this world.

The people you've been fighting against all these years are leaving it to them. No liberal is responsible for this mess! You've fought the good fight, given them the tools, education they need to continue to fight for the cause. Feel good about that. You've given a great gift to the world, a new generation of caring people willing to work for the common good. Thank you.:pals:

[scarletwoman]

289. Thank you for your kind words. In my younger days, I never imagined how truly awful the future

would turn out to be. The America I thought I was living in was the community-minded, sensible, fundamentally decent world of my liberal, caring immediate family.

I assumed that our society was evolving in a steady trajectory toward enlightenment -- you know; truth, justice, and equality for all. Even through the horrible assassinations of the 60s, I didn't wholly lose faith that Light would eventually overcome Darkness.

I thought it was inevitable; we'd come so far -- the rejection of McCarthyism, the rise of civil rights, women's lib, environmentalism, the peace movement, Nixon's resignation... I thought the momentum of all these changes for the better would just continue to grow in strength.

Silly me. :(

Instead, society devolved from citizenship to consumerism, our political institutions devolved from statesmanship to prostitution, the National Security State and the MIC grew into a juggernaut swallowing everything in its path, Union leaders carried water for management, and the destruction of the middle class proceeded apace.

Of course, that's only a partial list, but I didn't mean to launch into another rant -- I just wanted to thank you for your kind post. :blush:

sw

[EmeraldCityGrl]

19. I'm clinging to the last shred of "hope" but, I have the

utmost respect for those that have come to the conclusion you have.

The people that stand for the principles you and your family do, have not changed. Those core values still live in all of us, we just
need a new venue to see them realized. If Obama turns out to be a sham, the political system itself will collapse. The times are
just to difficult and people simply have nothing left to lose.

[FLyellowdog]

20. I, too, am feeling disenfranchised. So sad. nt

[Old Codger]

21. Agreed with

painfully so, you have taken the words out of my mouth and written it better than i could for sure.. Thank You

[scarletwoman]

24. It's so sad that it's come to this.

We thought we were keeping up our end of the bargain all these years. But the game turned out to be rigged.

:hug:
sw

[Old Codger]

125. Sadly

The game has always been rigged against us, I actually dared to have a glimmer of hope this time around but once again it ends up being politics as usual.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

22. Blind stubborness

or stubborn blindness is what I see most of the leadership - Dem & Rep - in our country.
It galls me no end, for example, that health care reform has proven to be so tough as our elected representatives enjoy their own taxpayer-paid benefits.

K&R

[BrklynLiberal]

25. You Go girl!!!!

:thumbsup: :hi:

[Laelth]

26. Well said. k&r n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[unkachuck]

28. K&R....n/t

[dflprincess]

29. Well said

I think I'll still caucus in February, but I'm wondering why I'm going to and I'm not sure how involved I'll be afterward. I do know I will not vote for the "lesser of evils" again.

[scarletwoman]

39. Thank you. And I sincerely admire your willingness to keep at it.

I just feel... done... :(

[dflprincess]

46. Sometimes I think it's just habit

on the other hand some of us old rabble rousers have to stay around even if all it does is annoy the "new Democrats".

[madrchsod]

32. 62 and i know exactly how you feel

unless something changes....

..."i think i`m gonna have to just sit this one out..."

[scarletwoman]

43. I'll show up to vote for my state representative because he's a true anti-corporate progressive.

But I'll likely leave the rest of my ballot blank. My Dem congresscritter voted for the Stupak amendment, I'm done with him.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Ye are not alone

we registered independent a while ago, this is a union household... and we reached that conclusion a while ago

Oh and I have told the party as much

[scarletwoman]

57. I know I'm not alone, and it's a damn shame that it's come to this.

There's no registration by party in my state, so the only way to express discontent is to withhold my vote.

As DFLPrincess says, I'm done voting for the lesser of two evils. I'm done voting for evil, period. I don't care if it's "lesser".

[zoff]

184. Just as good as the OP.

Kudos to you and DFLPrincess. I got some flack for saying that I would not vote. That to me was the only real threat a politician would take seriously. But you are correct, why vote for the lesser evil? The lesser evil (D's) would dunk us in a simmering pot and the bigger evil (R's), would just roast us over the fires. One is a slow death the other one quicker. But same result. So why vote?

[ChiciB1]

123. Union Here Too! And Looking At The "Independent Label" Too! Very Sad! n/t

[Djinn]

37. K & R

I cop the same crap down here from Labor party hacks who can't stand this life long union activists refusal to vote Labor, I'm lectured that my support for the Greens is an abandonment of the party - fuck that. The ALP abandoned me LONG before I finally gave up on them. I'm harangued about not expecting "purity", when I never expected anything of the sort, I don't agree with a large amount of the Greens platform, I don't expect to agree with any party/person 100% (or even 50%) but why should I support a party with whom I disagree on almost every little thing?

[blindpig]

153. Hey Djinn

How are ya?

[invictus]

38. K&R

[prairierose]

41. sw, I am almost your age...

I was raised in a democratic family too. I have not missed voting in a general or primary election since I was eighteen. I have worked in various campaigns over the years and have watched the deterioration of both the party and it values. I have watched Dem congresscritters chase after the corporatocracy. AS someone else in this thread said, Bill Clinton was the best republican President we've had.

I was not enamored with Obama but let myself believe for a time that he might do the right thing. I did not expect him to be able to fix everything in a short time but I did expect leadership that would work for the people and not the corporations and wall street and the banksters. I no longer believe that will happen and I have come to accept that we are an oligarchy and the likelihood that will be corrected in my lifetime is so small that a magnifying glass would be needed to find it.

I know there are many young people who have become politically active in recent years and they have never known a time when most of Congress was not bribed and talking out of both sides of their mouth as the same time.

But the truth is, there was a time when the Democratic party was the party of the working people and they did work for the betterment of the working class and not the oligarchs.

[conflictgirl]

44. The younger generation sees it too

I'm from a long line of union members and lifelong Democrats, too. There's ONE Republican in my family and he married into it, and his views have gradually softened and become more progressive over the years. No one in my family has ever voted Republican and never would. The very first election I was old enough to vote was for Clinton in 1992, and I not only went to see him speak, I campaigned for him. I did the same in every election since. But at the same time, I spent most of my late teens and early 20s hanging around with punks and anarchists - not causing trouble, but discussing ideas and being critical of societal structures. Because of that I've been able to watch what has happened in our political system with a close eye, and I'm well enough educated in history (both through formal education and through the family stories) to know for myself what has changed. I knew what NAFTA was going to do. I knew that Clinton was never as radical as the right tried to say he was and that he was actually a centrist, and the same is true of Obama. In this country and in our political system we have center-right and we have far-right. Those of us representing the true left, which used to be the real Democratic party not so long ago, are now seen as "radical".

Merely discussing these issues in my household is shaping the views of my own kids. My 12 year old is very bright and he's already questioning the status quo and paying attention to current events. He got very caught up in the hope for Obama's campaign and now says that Obama is a "wimp" and says that from now on he is going to support Green candidates. Of course, he's not old enough to vote - but in 6 short years he will be. When the pendulum swings far enough, eventually it has to start swinging back the other way. That's the only thing giving me hope right now...maybe the pendulum will start swinging back another way in future generations, but until then things are going to look pretty ugly for the rest of us.

[tavalon]

51. I so loved the fiery rhetoric that Obama's speeches had

The one about race was the one in which he won me over wholeheartedly. But, as time has gone on, I've seen more magnificent speechifying and actions that are opposed to that which he speaks and I've never been one to believe words over actions. He's losing me. It's too bad, too, because he could be one of our greatest Presidents if he just did the great things he talks about in his beautiful speeches. He's got just under three years to get his base fired up again. None of us will vote for his opponent, we just won't bother to show up. I wish he would hear us.

[G_j]

56. =

much appreciated.

[FatDave]

174. The pendulum is trying to swing back right now.

Elected democrats are trying not to let it. They didn't get the memo that conservatism has failed yet again.

[tavalon]

45. I wholly agree

I'm getting pretty disgusted too.

[G_j]

47. I hear ya

:loveya:

[scarletwoman]

65. Hello, love! It's so sad, isn't it?

There's no hope to be found in electoral politics. :(

:loveya:
sw

[G_j]

72. oh well..

time to practice that Zen we've been picking up all our lives.
Siddhartha was right.

:hug:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. Brava for you SW. Another Democrat said much the same. K&R

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." --Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.

[scarletwoman]

60. Thank you. Great to see ya!

Great quote, too. :hi:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

64. A bow to you, M'Lady.

:pals:

[MissDeeds]

49. Excellent post

And I fully agree with your hurt and frustrations. I have been a Democrat all my life, but the party is becoming increasingly unrecognizable to me. Candidates no longer are elected to serve, they are elected to rule. "The People" are just a means to an end.

[EFerrari]

50. I think I'm all finished with expecting millionaires to care about my neighborhood.

It gets pretty simple after a while. :grouphug:

[scarletwoman]

59. Heh. Well said.

:hi:

[peace frog]

115. Exactly

They have theirs so no worries. If the rest of us don't have, well then we just need to pack up our troubles in our old kit bag and smile, smile, smile.

I'm done smiling and my powder hasn't been dry for quite a while now.

[leftstreet]

52. K&R

:applause:

[omega minimo]

53. For anyone who still doesn't get it "his choices for his economic team did the trick"

Well put SW. Impeccable. Note perfect. Sad but true. :hug:

[AngryOldDem]

55. You speak for many of us.

The system is indeed broken. There's really no point in caring anymore. Congress has been bought and sold so many times by the corporatocracy that there is no difference between Democrat and Republican.

The hell with it.

ON EDIT: Proud to K&R.

[scarletwoman]

58. Thank you.

:hug:

[PufPuf23]

61. One can it the situation very easy to perceive this way because

alas this is the truth of the USA.

D I will vote except perhaps in local elections.

[Agony]

63. They did it, You wrote it, I believe it!

Cheers always!
Agony

[misanthrope]

68. Sad to say this has been unfolding for decades before Clinton...

...Clinton was just the first unabashed version of it.

We're living in a corporatocracy now and the Beltway Dems are as culpable as anyone else.

[amborin]

69. great post!

Chomsky has also been saying this for years

[waiting for hope]

73. Amen sister -

and a hearty K&R.

[Solly Mack]

75. It's easier to dismiss you as a "handmaiden for the GOP" than it is to

hear what you're saying.

If you're not happy with something the hero/party/candidate/celebrity/author I self-identify with is doing then the problem must be with you - it couldn't possibly be that the hero I self-identify with is wrong. (because that means I'm wrong, too ...and there might be something to what you're saying)

and even if my hero is wrong

If you voice your displeasure for my hero's, etc., actions, then you're helping my hero's enemies - so you are now the enemy. (exactly the same as Bush's with us or against us mentality)

So....I want you to either

A. Start agreeing with me

or

B. Shut up & go away (the actual goal)


K&R

[Hekate]

76. I'm hanging on by a thread, myself.

:-( :hide: :yoiks:

Hekate

[K8-EEE]

77. I disagree

Barack was never "the left" or "a liberal." But he's better than BushCo and Gore would have been better than BushCo although as any politician who reaches a certain status, there would be compromises and distasteful bedfellows etc.

It's not a question "good v. evil." For the most part, Dems are better. I'm really happy that Old Man McCain and Mrs Palin aren't in there. I think we would be in a WORLD of hurt if they were.

The "they're the same" lie (told by Nader among others) gave us BushCo. If we had Gore in there I HONESTLY BELIEVE we would not have had 9/11 (BushCo was TOTALLY ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL) or these trillion dollar wars. So that would have been quite a difference.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

110. I disagree with your point

Yeah- dems are better than repubs- But Obama is allowing the corporatists to thrive, while the rest of us are just barely keeping
our heads above water.

I'm now firmly with the, "we need for things to get worse, before the people wake up, and rise up to take power back into
their own hands" camp.

All electing Obama has done was apply a few pumps of the break peddle to the car, in attempt to slow it before it goes off the cliff.

[JoeyT]

221. No one thinks McCain/Palin would've been better than Obama/Biden

That's not even in question. Everyone knows McCain/Palin would've been far worse. But the lesser of evils is still an evil.
People are tired of fighting for "The Party that isn't quite as bad as the Republicans." It's difficult to even work up the motivation to vote for the lesser of evils, it's even harder to donate, canvass, or work a phone for them. Which I suspect doesn't bother them all that much. When corporations are backing you, you can just pay people do to that sort of thing.

It isn't as if we hate the party. We just don't like the direction it's headed in, and suspect we're not going to be able to do a damned thing to change it.

[loudsue]

79. Your post mirrors my own feelings, Scarletwoman.

It is stunning how openly and blatantly corrupt and corporatist the legislators are now. They aren't even spending much time trying out their "populist" sound-bites for us anymore.

The ability of those "inside the beltway" to isolate themselves in their un-reality bubble, that has no resemblance to real life in this country, has driven me to the point of fury. Sometimes I stop and look around at all the CRAP that has been passed for legislation in the past 20 years, and the travesties that have occurred in our justice system, and I just wish we could wipe out every law and ruling that has been passed.

I grieve for the loss of our country and our way of life. We all worked so hard for it, and for a while, it was good. It's ruined, now. It sucks. Police brutality, hate crimes, rampant ignorance, poverty, corruption, poison in our water, food and air defiantly dumped by angry corporate management, privatized prisons and military, insurance company death squads sentencing 43,000 Americans to death every year and REWARDED for it by the legislators and stockholders, pharmaceuticals that cause heart attack, neuropathy, fibromyalgia, beef in the system most likely carrying mad cow... it is making me sick.

Hope? Nope. Just audacity.

[Raster]

80. I have said before and I will say again:

There may be two political parties, but they feed at the same trough and by the same hand.

[hfojvt]

82. unrec

you just describe how we got George W. Bush. I never liked Clinton, never voted for him, but there was at least $800 billion difference between George W. Bush and Albert Gore Jr. However much Clinton may have let us down and said or done the wrong thing, there's no doubt he was better than Dole, Bush, or Gingrich.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWjPrIUgKA4

The Democratic Party is still "the best hope for redirecting our nation on a more humane, just and peaceful course" It is not a perfect party, but it is not as bad as you make it out to be. "The Dems just blithely went along". That's mostly Green-party type spin. That's always seeing the glass as half empty. Yes, they should have fought harder, but what did the voting public do? Did the voting public support them in 2002 or 2004? The American voters could have given us a Democratic Congress in 2002 - but didn't. Could have given us a Democratic President in 2004 - but didn't. In October of 2004, I seriously expected Bush to get thumped like Hoover in 1932 (obviously I was not following the polls although I remember Alterman blogging that it was too close to call).

Granted that we have seemingly not accomplished much since 2006, but if the Democratic Party gets thumped in 2010, then be prepared for another great leap backwards. And the Democratic Party will not be entirely to blame, because it will be the voters (and non-voters) who are empowering the Republicans.

[anonymous171]

83. The problem is that the democrats that we elect are acting like republicans.

[Hannah Bell]

90. how so? clinton took us to war in yugoslavia. clinton passed the telecom bill.

clinton tombstoned glass-steagall & passed nafta.

the only reason you *think* he was better is because the economy seemed better. but the middle & lower class lost in comparison to the rich; the gap got bigger.

it was a bubble, just like coolidge's economy.

the clinton admin's legislative history was the basis for the bush expansion in the same directions.

obama is expanding bush's war, he's not rescinding bush's tax cuts (waiting for them to sunset when the revenue could be used *now*), he's expanding bush's education program.

dem or pub, things move in the same direction.

[madrchsod]

95. clinton looked the other way when rwanada became a blood bath.

and let`s ot forget the wonderful welfare reform bill....

[Hannah Bell]

104. welfare reform. how could i forget, that was a biggie.

i was very optimistic when clinton came to office. he was the first boomer pres.

though the lewinsky thing was a farce, by the time he left office i was deeply cynical.

i didn't partake in the hope this time around.

[CrispyQ]

217. And now, the dems are starting to court the religious vote

& continue to fund faith based organizations & policies with federal funds. :grr:

[EFerrari]

151. The torture president stole two elections. We had nothing to do with it.

[Raster]

186. No shit! cheney*/bush* was going to the White House in 2000, no matter who legally won.

Every favor was called in, every dirty trick played. Millions had been spent to put the PNAC/neoCON fronts in 1600 Pennsylvania, and all the DC power-pushers knew the outcome long before the actual (s)election. And when, by the skin-of-our-teeth, it looked like the people's legally and lawfully elected choice for President would be the winner, a brutally biased and partisan, rethuglican-owned SCOTUS illegally stepped in and stopped a valid State of Florida recount. And as we *KNOW* beyond a shadow of a doubt, Al Gore won the Presidency in 2000. This is a cold, hard fact. And the reason he did not take the oath of office is because the United States of America experienced a bloodless "Brooks Bros" coup de 'etat, staged primarily by the Texas-American Petroleum Mafia and the Military Industrial Complex with assistance by the BFEE and their cohorts. The primary facilitators were Jeb Bush*, Kathleen Harris and Diebold Election Systems. And as it turned out, 2000 was only the dress rehearsal. Many of the same tricks and techniques that had proved so successful in Florida in 2000, were used in Ohio in 2004 to achieve the same result.

And I am fucking-tired-beyond-belief of hearing bullshit like "we lost because of Nader" or "Gore/Kerry weren't strong candidates..." Grow the fuck up. We "lost" because the powers that control this country decided who to put in the Oval Office, and in both instances, it wasn't our team. We lawfully and legally elected them, but they were never allowed to take office.

[hfojvt]

190. I am tired of the Nader excuses too

Nader was warned that his campaign could help Bush win, and he kept flying around the country giving Gore-bashing speeches (that had clips played on the news). He was asked "What if Bush wins because of you" and his answer was "I don't care". And now his supporters just want to blame everyone else (and there's no doubt that people like Chris Matthews, Maureen Dowd and Ariana Huffington helped put Bush in the White House too).

[Raster]

195. And you just helped perpetuate the lie. Nader had *every* right to run as a third party candidate.

But most importantly, bush*/cheney* was going to seize the pResidency no matter the legal outcome. Put the blame where it squarely belongs: on an American electorate that allowed their legal election to be turned into rich man's drive-by. We should have taken to the streets and DEMANDED a valid recount. We allowed the coup to happen. And it seems some still churn out the old tired bullshit they are comfortable with... or are paid to sell.

[EFerrari]

204. I did not support Nader that year or any year.

BushCo was going to steal that election no matter what anyone did. Nader was just an easy hook to hang a hat on. If he'd dropped out, they would have found some other hook. That's what they do.

[JoeyT]

223. Yeah, damn that Nader!

It couldn't have been because everyone that was even slightly left of center was disgusted with the party after Clinton channeled Reagan for 8 solid years. It couldn't have been that liberals were being blamed for Clinton's disastrous policies, even though we opposed them the entire time. It couldn't have been that the conservatives tried (Tried? Success!)to run everyone that was to the left of Reagan out of the party. It couldn't have been any of that. Damn that Nader!

Edited to add: All of which sounds awfully familiar.

[glitch]

216. Thank you. And another thing

If Gore and Bush were really tweedledee and tweedledum why did they have to pull out the stops and expose themselves to seat tweedledum?

It wasn't Nader, it wasn't Gore, it was Stolen.

[CrispyQ]

220. Well said!!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[JCMach1]

84. Great OP, I too am not willing to accept a Democratic President governing to the RIGHT

of where Bill Clinton did!

Seriously, :wtf:

[juno jones]

85. K&R! n/t

[Fumesucker]

86. Well said.. and so true. Recced.

[Mimosa]

87. K&R Scarlet you're speaking for many...

ScarletWoman I hear you and I agree. Especially with this:


ScarletWoman said:

I find it extremely insulting to see people blaming my current disaffection, and the disaffection of others like me, on some sort of stealth Republicanism. My disaffection arose during the Clinton administration, watching atrocities like NAFTA and banking deregulation and Plan Columbia being pushed and championed.

I've watched the Democratic party -- the party that was supposed to be for the workers -- give us over to the tender mercies of the corporatocracy and Wall Street, time and again. It was the Clinton Third Way, New Democrats, DLC that sent me over the edge.

I didn't want to give up my lifelong faith in the Democratic party, THEY broke faith with me and mine. My 83 year old dad feels the same way, my mother, bless her heart, passed away last year. The Democratic party of today (excepting a very few individual pols) is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Owner Class, a species of aristocrat that maintains a veneer of "noblesse oblige", but which can be relied upon to champion the interest of the Owner Class when push comes to shove.


Who can refute it?

[DemReadingDU]

94. I'm with you scarletwoman

"I sobered up right quick -- his choices for his economic team did the trick." and "The oligarchs have control, no elected politician is going to do a damn thing about it, their butts are covered no matter which party is in power."

Yep, totally agree.

[Enthusiast]

96. Scarletwoman, I feel the same.

"I didn't want to give up my lifelong faith in the Democratic party, THEY broke faith with me and mine."

I always worked in a union shop. I always felt the Democratic Party was pro-labor, pro-environment and pro-civil rights. They abandoned their values for corporate campaign contributions.

[JDPriestly]

97. Thank you, scarletwoman.

It's interesting how so many pundits including Bernanke and even many Democrats say the the U.S. emerged from the Great Depression only because of WWII. That is not the way my 92-year-old mother who lived during that time remembers it. She remembers the WPA, how it helped kids learn to work, how the money that young people working in government projects earned was sent home to their families, how Roosevelt gave the people courage.

As for WWII, one of the reasons we won that war was that so many of the young people who worked in defense industries and who served so ably in the military had been given the opportunity to develop their skills and good work ethics in the government programs during the depression, the WPA for example. Had the unemployed been abandoned and left to idle in the way that the Obama administration is abandoning them, they would not have been capable of turning the plowshares of the nation into swords.

Private industry should be given a chance to show that it can get Americans back to work. And if it can't, the government should employ people in public works projects to the extent necessary to insure that every person who wants a job has one. And private industry had better move fast because Americans cannot wait years and years for recovery.

Unfortunately, in our complex world, with some many massive corporations dominating our economy, individuals have great difficulty successfully starting small businesses. In these troubled times, people need a hand up as well as a hand out.

[olegramps]

135. Not many are old enough to remember the WPA

I have written to my representatives encouraging them to revisit the accomplishment of the Work Progress Administration. The billions that have been squandered on the banksters could have put millions to work on public projects.

I would like to add my two cents worth in regard to President Obama. I read both of his books and I was struck with the recurring theme of his desire for bipartisanship cooperation. A return to civility and compromise. I feel that this is his greatest failing and has resulted in him squandering the excellent position that his election provided him. I just don't believe that it is within his personality to actually realize that we are in desperate fight for the survival of the working class and that the neo-cons actually despise liberals.

I may be going a bit far in my next suggestion. Can it be that because of his heritage of being biracial that he is instinctively afraid to forcefully engage the opposition. I would be interested in what others think about this.

[JDPriestly]

237. I agree that he unrealistically thinks he can magically "unite" the country.

That is the last thing that the wealthiest of Americans want: a united America made up mostly of people much poorer than they.

I believe that he seeks a return to civility and compromise because he learned to think as he does from his mother. Also, based on what I know about Indonesia, it is a country in which confrontation is frowned upon. People are expected to hide disagreements as much as possible. I have not been to Indonesia but have talked to people who have lived there.

[Hubert Flottz]

99. "Losing my religion"

The snakes have taken over our "Church"...Faith is just about extinct at our house too.

It's really hard to tell the democrats from the republicans in this administration because there are so many republicans still running things just like last November never happened. "Bipartisanship" is not just a pipe dream...it's a crack pipe dream. Where was the "Bipartisanship" on the GOP's part for the past eight years? The same place that Bipartisanship on the part of the GOP is today...nonexistant. For example, how many republicans are going to vote for the health care bill in the senate? I at least thought that Obama was smart, but after watching him trust the leftovers from the past eight years I don't think Obama is much smarter than Dumbya. I voted for a Democratic administration I was led to believe, but I think I was lied to again.

"At least Obama is better than Bush!" I lose a little more "Faith" and "Hope" with each passing compromise with the GOPer Devils.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

100. You speak for me and I thank you.

I particularly agree with the sentiment that the only true change will come from a bottom up movement and not from politics as usual.

The one thing the healthcare debate did is prove beyond any doubt that our system of government is corrupt beyond repair. It was all about appeasing the "stakeholders", not enacting laws that would have benefited the welfare of both the citizenry and the treasury.

The social movement needs to come from the disaffected and disillusioned - a group that grows daily - people who have been effectively abandoned by their government and yes, their Democratic Party. I see the "New Poor"(the people we used to call the middle class)have 2 choices: radicalize and push for real change or continue to be content with the crumbs doled out by the entrenched.

Like you, I have voted for the Democratic candidate in EVERY election, whether it is for national office or dogcatcher. I turn out or EVERY election, big or small. I DONATE money. At this moment, I am an unhappy progressive who has been left high and dry by the Democratic Party deciding that they have no room for me as they move righter and righter and pander to people who secretly would love to have real, not "joke" liberal hunting licenses. I have to chuckle when the DLC/DINO types RESPONSIBLE for the movement rightward and the slow torturous death of all that the Democratic Party once stood for call people like me secret Republican operatives. I would have to return the favor and call them the same.

[sendero]

101. Well said..

... and I'm tired of it all too.

The idea that "our team" is substantially better than the asshole team is an idea whose time has passed. I don't know for sure if it is just money or ideology or what, but I know our current leaders are failing in a very big way - and I get pretty angry at the idiots here defending them.

There is no defense. We are slipping into a depression and just what is Obama doing? It is beyond sad and the consequences for our country and YES our party are going to be dire.

But not to worry, the Dems will be SWEPT out of office for letting the unemployment situation spiral out of control. You wait, and you will see. And then things will be worse, but not enough worse to give a shit any more.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/will-the-unemployment-dis_b_368329.html

[shirlden]

103. What a surprise!!

How is it that you read my mind so well?? I could have written every line, except I am 74 years old, so I have a bit more history than you. And I have been a life long student of American History and politics. Jefferson and Truman are my heroes: the Kennedys were my hope.
I have supported Dems from even before I was old enough to vote and my father was a UNION MAN.
The party moved away from me...............I am still where I have always been. There is no hope that this will improve in the few days or years that I have left on this magnificent earth. I grieve for the future and know in my heart that this generation of mine, may be the first one to leave our country worse than the way we were given it. My father would not be proud of me or this country.
For all you "youngsters" on DU who still have the audacity to believe, don't give up the fight. I just can't do it anymore....too tired and feeling very guilty for not having done a better job.

:dem:

[quaker bill]

105. It is always bad

to place faith in a political party, left or right, major or minor, the results will be the same.

The Democratic party never "broke faith" with anyone, because they were never "in faith" with anyone. The fact that the party was not what you were expecting is no personal affront, they did not do it to anger you.

Clinton only won because Perot took 19 percent of the vote. Were it not for this, we would likely have had 8 years of GHWB, perhaps followed by JEB instead of George Jr. Clinton squeaked in with only 43 percent of the vote, caused the economy to recover, and won re-election. All but 2 years of his 8, he governed with strong conservative republican majorities in both houses of congress, that were elected by the people. The people elected republicans because they believed they wanted what the republicans were offering. They also wanted Bill Clinton to do much of the same things. He did, but truly had limited choices and was under the cloud of impeachment for a good chunk of the 8.

I am not saying this to defend Bill Clinton, as he needs no defense, and to any extent he might, has proven large enough to do it himself.

My point is to lay the blame where it fairly belongs, on the people. The people showed a strong preference for republican policy be electing them to office repeatedly and in great number. They got what they voted for, lower taxes, massive deficits, reduced services, unjustified wars, a city abandoned to "you are on your own" governance in the face of a major hurricane, and of course, the related and ever present financial corruption and sex scandals.

2008 was the first election where the people turned their backs on republican philosophy en-masse. In 2004 we took the urban areas, but lost most of the suburbs. 2006 was only a partial turn in some pretty urbanized places and nearby communities. 2008 finally took it out of the urban core and into the suburbs with clear and substantial wins.

Now if you want a different form of governance, actually want it, as opposed to something to whine about, then this voting pattern will have to be sustained for a number of cycles. Politicians will have to become convinced that 2008 was not an "abberation" but instead, the new political reality.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

107. Strange that an election that was essentially a referendum and rejection of Bush and Republicans

which energized new voters and brought the blue nationwide and into the suburbs as you point out, then results in an administration which continues much of that which was rejected soundly - thus de energizing the newly enlarged base and taking it back to 2004/2006 levels - thus guaranteeing that 2008 will be an "abberation".

(Is there a rule that every thoughtful post by someone wondering about the rightward direction the Democratic Party is taking has to be characterized as a "whine"? )

***********
edited for better clarity

[glitch]

173. Yes - they know they have no real defense.

(Is there a rule that every thoughtful post by someone wondering about the rightward direction the Democratic Party is taking has to be characterized as a "whine"? )

What are they going to say, corporate rule is a good thing, down with democracy?

[Raster]

203. !!!

[Usrename]

124. There is a huge omission in your analysis.

You fail to consider the impact of propaganda and intimidation produced by assassins, provacateurs, infiltrators and cronies.

It is NOT a level field.

[kenfrequed]

126. And by cowering...

And accepting the oppositions spin and trying to play really really nice with them and putting up with DLC dipshittery we accomplish what exactly?

[gratefultobelib]

180. Thank you. This very important observation is blithely overlooked.

[Raster]

197. Truth!!!

[EFerrari]

207. Our voting process is corrupt beyond belief and there's no way to know

if the peoples' choices have been seated. 2008 must have been massive because it was too big to steal.

[mudplanet]

106. Well said.

[Dystopian]

108. Thank you....K&R

Faith no more....

peace~

[girl_interrupted]

109. K&R

[PuraVidaDreamin]

111. There is something we can do

This spring in DC, if we can find 5000 people to commit- We plan peaceful civil resistance.
1000 people a day committed to arrest. Tie up DC jails. day. after. day

peaceoftheaction.org

[Dogtown]

112. K&R&

a big hug:


:grouphug:

[Vidar]

113. K&R.

[sazemisery]

114. Thank you.

You put into words that feeling I have had in my gut for 20 years. Where is my "party"?

[Bluenorthwest]

118. With a few small changes this is my story as well

I'm younger, and my Dad is not with us any more. The rest is close enough to stand as my own story.

[NorthCarolina]

119. With the exception of a few, today's Democrats would never have enacted

Civil Rights, Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, 40H Work Week, FDIC, etc. The DLC and Blue Dogs have rendered the Democratic Party close to indistinguishable from the Republican Party.

[CrispyQ]

225. Exactly!

When some say, "Pass any kind of health care & we'll fix it later," those people are thinking of the democratic party of the past, not the one of today.

[ChiciB1]

120. You Can Add Me Too The Era You're Speaking Of AND To Everything Else You

mentioned! As an Army brat who also moved about and was part of a Democratic Party since I can remember, I'm sure my father and mother would be turning over in their graves. Both died relatively early, but they taught me the difference between Democrats and Repukes just in the same way as you!

Add my name to a growing list of discontented DEMOCRATS!!

I no longer listen or "hear" the NEW Democrats and what they propose and I don't know where I fit into the political process these days! I wander among many who are scratching their head these days!! Does REVOLUTION work, I don't know, but I DO KNOW that signing petition, calling Reps, sending letters and all the other stuff, JUST DOESN'T WORK... THEY DON'T CARE!

They care about what side of the hand the BUTTER is one, save a few NOBLE souls who have been thrown overboard and drowned out! It truly SUCKS!!

Give me some real answers and I'm ready to go, but I no longer have much BELIEF in what has been happening since Ronnie RAY-GUNS, and those who have forgotten the people who made this ONCE a great Nation! Rome continually comes to my mind!

Thank you for speaking out for me and so many of us!!!
:hug: :toast: :thumbsup:

[bigtree]

121. the complaints usually come from folks who just can't defend indefensible actions

. . . coming from this new administration. Sour grapes.

[valerief]

127. Capitalism gets stronger, never weaker, as long as they mind-control men with guns.

[unapatriciated]

128. We have lived the same life with the same values.

I'm 57 and grew up in a union household.
The union enabled my father to earn a living wage not a minimum wage.
He is a very intelligent man who had to leave school at 13 to help support his family.
Like many of his generation all of his brothers were fighting in WWII, it was his responsibility to support his younger brother and mother.
I am growing weary of fighting, my only hope is my children and grandchildren will continue the fight.

[swilton]

129. Remember Paul Tsongas

The late great senator from Massachusetts ran in the primaries against Clinton - he was my first choice in the first Democratic primaries I ever voted in. A life long Republican, I had become fed up with the Republican Party in general which was running at that time against the environment and against gun control, among other things. I was too niave to understand the economic issues.

I heard through a thread on DU that Clinton won that primary because he made promises to big business to push through NAFTA. But one can see the threshhold that was crossed w/i the Democratic Party beginning with the Clinton Administration - the rise of the DLC and the pro-war Clinton Democrats who got Republicans to switch parties in the South.

I also think that Clinton would not have won that election had it not been for Ross Perot taking votes away from the Republican stalwarts. I think too much credit (Carville, Stephanopolous, et. al.) is placed on Clinton's campaign strategy.

But the Democratic Party thresholds that Clinton brought to the Democratic Party - I think the choices made on these issues would have been entirely different under other administrations - a Tsongas or Gore administration for example. Besides NAFTA, we have the introduction of the 'humanitarian intervention' concept - with Bosnia as the experiment. Note that the NATO intervention was totally outside of UNSC authorization and resulted in exponential expansion of US presence in Eastern Europe. :shrug:

I certainly think that the 2000 election was another lost opportunity to turn thing around in the US. But unfortunately, I can't see that all the blame rests on the shoulders of the Bush family and the Republican Party.

[Truth2Tell]

282. I believe Tsongas could have won

had he not withdrawn. Clinton didn't lock it up until after that. I believe Tsongas knew or suspected that he was sick.

[info being]

130. I'm done with the whole fucking charade too...

American politics is nothing other than a sport. My team can win but it doesn't affect me at all. It is a waste of time and designed only to channel our energies into a meaningless cause.

[maxpower]

131. Agreed

I grew up a lone liberal in a conservative family. I am 40 years old now and have proudly voted for the Democrats in every election for the last 22 years. I remember turning 18 and proudly registering to vote for the first time, knowing my vote would counter one in my family. I fought the good fight, I still do at, or at least I try. I often say if it were not for my 10-year daughter, I would not give a fuck. I proudly teach my daughter good values (dangerous liberal ones at that), and that the Republicans and Fox News are not for us. I am still going to stay in the fight, even if it is like "Trying to shovel smoke with a pitchfork in the wind" as John Lennon so eloquently stated. As long as I am stealing others words to describe how I feel about "the fight" we are in, all of us, I leave you with this:

In the clearing stands a boxer
And a fighter by his trade
And he carries the reminders
Of ev'ry glove that layed him down
Or cut him till he cried out
In his anger and his shame
"I am leaving, I am leaving"
But the fighter still remains

Lie la lie ...

Paul Simon - The Boxer



Happy Thanksgiving peace and love to you all,

Max

[liberal_at_heart]

133. beautifully said and I agree completely

It is the democratic politicians doing nothing more than sitting on their hands and taking campaign contributions that have me thinking of voting third party also. If they would even show a shred of nerve and stand up and fight the GOP instead of caving to them everytime I might consider voting democrat but with them taking campaign contributions from corporations I don't expect that to happen anytime soon.

[fascisthunter]

134. you are right on!

[salib]

136. It is an improvement over Bush

And over Clinton, Bush I and Reagan.

And, looking at it that way, it has been a LONG TIME since the Democratic Party has been able to put together anything resembling the New Deal or the Great Society. So, I guess I can understand how many can be shocked at our current disaffection. If they were born in the seventies, they have never seen where we were.

However, many of us have seen how far we have gone backwards and sideways and upside down. We expect, no we demand, more.

And so we do.

[Jakes Progress]

137. We don't get to vote for who runs things.

Yes, it is worse under bush, but at least his 8 years laid the groundwork for a sweeping change. The country had had it. So the powers that be gave us a candidate who looked like a changer, talked like a progressive, appeared (on the surface since that is all that matters) to be a rebuttal to that which bush/chaney wrought. But in reality, we go another corporatist.

I don't know Obama. Never met the man. I did help him get elected, but I don't know how he personally feels about anything. But it is apparent that it wouldn't matter. He's not calling the shots.

DU should change it's name to Denial Underground. If you point out that the administration is being too right wing, the fan club calls you a right-winger. The few that understand right wing and left wing have now started lambasting liberals and using the title progressive as an insult. Were I not a progressive, I wouldn't have worked the polls and rang the bells for Democrats for the last forty years. Next year, I may have my first even-numbered year Autumn off. I'll get to see the leaves two years in a row.

[thegoodfight]

138. John Butler Trio - Used to get high for a living

Got links of the cheney
Getting crazy, getting lazy with their foreign relations
Starting wars, closing doors
Trying to bring about one quicker, man, revelations
Economic rational calling fouls with the workers
Just trying to make it pay
Cost cutting, head butting
Big business do what they like and you do what they say
What's wrong get along, just prolong all the thoughts
You got going on, on the inside
Appease, stand at ease, just try to please
All the apathy that you're trying to hide
How now brown cow
Did we get from this standing place......
And now we're kneeling
'Til then my friend you must contend with the monster that you're feeding

Should give that song a listen :) For some reason, your post really pulled at the heartstrings. It really is a lose-lose situation..I mean, what is there to be optimistic about? Obama was such a big, big, disappointment. I'm not bashing Obama just for the sake of being unjustifiably critical, but he had so much potential, he still does, to create a new America, one that you could be proud of, one that doesn't have blood on its hands.

I still cannot believe America doesn't have free healthcare for all. I mean honestly, it works perfectly fine in every single country it has been implemented in, it is an excellent system, the only negative is that it puts pressure on public hospitals in regards to funding and if you abuse it, regulations are put in place to prioritize those who need treatment the most. The only reason you do not have this fundamental right is because, the majority of people in both the Democratic and Republican party, do not give a shit about you and about whether you live or die. You should be outraged. It is so, so wrong. I'm not from America, but I feel your pain honey :(

[tekisui]

139. KNR!~ The Democratic Party is diseased with conservatism.

[liberal_at_heart]

140. BTW I love your avatar picture of the Venus of Willendorf

I've been thinking of getting a tattoo. My mother and grandmother both died of breast cancer and I have inherited the mutated gene that causes breast and ovarian cancer. I want to get a tattoo that symbolizes the strength of the female spirit. I've thought about getting Quan Yin, the Wicca goddess or the Venus of Willendorf.

[SammyWinstonJack]

141. The betrayal -- a thousand cuts.

:applause:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

143. AMEN SISTER!

Your story is my story.

Since the rise of the DLC wing I have become more and more disgusted with the party I grew up and and loved. Thank you Rahm, Bill, and all the other corporate dick-suckers for pushing life-long Democrats like myself out.

I cannot believe that, in 2009, I am fighting the same fight for women's reproductive health against members of my own damn party. Fighting for access to healthcare for Americans against members of my own damn party. Fighting for the basic civil rights of a group of Americans against members of my own damn party.

I mean really now, WHAT THE FUCK?????

FAUX, O'Reilly, or Limpballs had nothing whatsoever to do with my dissatisfaction with O or the Party, it was shit like Geitner and Summers and Emmanuel and a fucking trifecta majority and still being unable/unwilling to make the sweeping changes out country needs if it is to survive.

For fuck's sake, WE OWN THE WHITE HOUSE, THE SENATE, AND THE HOUSE and somehow, magically, the GOP/corporate interests still seems to be running the goddamned show!!!

And I am supposed to suck and swallow and say, "Thank-you-sir-may-I-have-more?"

Oh HELL no!

This is the make or break year for me as a Democrat.

[AllyCat]

147. Couldn't agree more

[LWolf]

149. Accountability. The nation that thrives on the rhetoric

and avoids it at every turn.

When the Democratic Party loses the votes of Democrats and independents that normally vote for them, they have only themselves to blame.

Votes are earned, not owed.

[bongbong]

150. My explanation

I always tells wafflers or repig-symps who say "both parties are the same" that the repig party stands 95%+ for rich billionaires, while the Dems stand 70% for the billionaires. I say that little 25% diff is the representation you (I don't talk to billionaires) get for voting for Dems.

Lately the percentage for the Dems is going down. We need Franken style campaign-public-financing to stop this. Since the rich guys mostly run things now, I expect the likelihood of a public financing bill passing being somewhat less than zero.

[blindpig]

152. k&r+

What a great OP, SW. Not to mention all of the great responses.

[Greenheron]

155. Nailed It

I agree with everything you just wrote. Well played madam.

[Greyhound]

156. It took the Idiot Frat Boy to get me to register as a Democrat, and in the last

3 years it is the Democratic Party that has me thinking of going back to no affiliation.
:kick: & R

[mike_c]

159. this boat's getting crowded....

:hug:

I vote Green 99 percent of the time now-- I have since 2002. We'd would be proud to have you stand with us!

[a la izquierda]

160. K & R

Being an Oklahoma Democrat is something of a lost cause. But in 2012, I'll be living somewhere else. Who knows how I'll vote then.

If the Democratic leadership doesn't take a good, hard Progressive swing...I'll find myself someone who will.

[femrap]

161. I'm part of your

generation and I feel just as you do. The dem party has betrayed its most ardent members....workers, women, union members, and the poor.

We definitely need a Third Party....and I'm not talking Ron Paul who is anti-choice.

Maybe a Party that simply calls itself The Freedom Party.

[april]

164. right w/ you ..and thank you

[timtom]

167. I recently changed my Facebook political entry

from "Democrat" to "Disgusted."

[emmadoggy]

168. K & R. I am feeling the same way.

:grouphug:

[Individualist]

171. Excellent post, sw

I'm 66, and it has been sickening to see the party change from the party for the people to the party for the corporations.

[Echo In Light]

172. Out-muther-fuckin-standing post!!!

"I think electoral politics is a sham." = the biggest LIE brainwashed Americans would sooner kill each other over in the streets than admit such awful truth.

:thumbsup:

[Raster]

188. NO ONE, and I do repeat, NO ONE, wants to admit that electoral politics is a sham.

Because it would mean we really DON'T HAVE ANY CONTROL of our country and national destiny.

[Echo In Light]

199. Same collective psyche variables in disavowing mass brainwashing via mass marketing

... you know the type, the guy or gal who vehemently denounces the notion - the fact, actually - that pretty much all of our thoughts and ideas originally stem from routine exposure to an array of external, agenda-setting sources, often from likeminded outlets which seek to bolster empire-friendly views and "value$," and instead prefer to think that they're every thought/idea is completely devoid of ulterior influences, as if human ideas somehow stem from a social vacuum ... I mean, it's ludicrous to actually believe that, no different than people's views of our system of governance, yet they do, and will argue/fight bitterly in defense of that illusory belief system.

[Raster]

201. They will even argue and fight for a belief system that is in their WORST interests.

Take, for example, health care. We have the ways and the means to cover EVERYONE IN THIS COUNTRY at the current level of Medicare and do so within a year. We could completely reform the US health care system, making it more efficient AND cheaper AND cover everyone. But we will not. Why? Because the "for profit" health care providers--insurance, big pharma, etc.--have pretty much brainwashed Joe and Jane America into thinking that this would not be good for them. How fucking insane is this? When in reality, we could eliminate the "money middleman" tomorrow and be well on our way to solving this crisis.

[Hannah Bell]

219. which means our control over our personal destiny is also suspect.

[Raster]

224. Of course it is suspect. How many of us really do get to pursue the things we want to pursue?

How many of us are able to live our dreams? Guess what, the children of the plutocracy are able to pursue their idle pleasures with nary a care, most NEVER doing a days work in their lives. And then we have persons whose only fault is not winning the genetic lottery.

There should be a level playing field for everyone. However, does anyone really think the plutocracy would ever allow that to happen?

Picture this: Paris Hilton *having* to work at a 7-11!

[Hannah Bell]

226. it's worse than that. many of your "dreams" are implanted by globocorp(tm).

or amount to service to globocorp.

[Raster]

227. I work in the financial services area, in direct service to the corporate plutocracy.

I *LIVE* this on a daily basis. You aren't telling me anything new.

The tragedy is that MOST of us will spend our lives--our relatively short lives--in service to the plutocracy. We will spend our breaths and our heartbeats serving the privileged owners class. We will watch out government take from our hard work and give to the privileged. No better example to be found is the recent give-away to Wall Street. These are people who gamed the system, lost miserably (in some cases), and then expected us to clean up the mess AND still provide for their bonuses. Did the Democrats ANYWHERE stand up and say: "THIS IS WRONG"? Sadly, no. Most of the Dems in Congress were accomplices to the crime.

[Hannah Bell]

230. you aren't telling me anything i don't know either. my point was

that many of our dreams of escape are also corporate products. including those viewed as "alternative".

our very identities are corporate products, to some extent.

[Raster]

231. Welcome to the Matrix.

[FatDave]

175. Just not voting isn't enough. Neither is registering independent.

You've got to realize, elected democrats are way out of touch with the voting public. I firmly believe people are ready to move pretty sharply to the left, but if we deliver a crushing defeat to our guys in office by not voting, or if we change our affiliation to independent en masse, these fucksticks are liable to think it means they're not conservative enough.

We've got to register green, socialist, or some new party we haven't invented yet. They have to see that they're losing support from the left.

[Echo In Light]

181. Not as many are still falling for the shuck n jive - let's hope more do organize for the Left!

[FatDave]

183. Echo, I'm not sure what that is on the Rise Above Records logo...

...except that it is all kinds of awesome.

[Mimosa]

234. If we call ourselves 'left' we'll never get anywhere

The idea which will sell is taking our stands for American values and ideals. We all need to demand that people are treated fairly, that there are goodpaying jobs, affordable education and health care for everyone.

I don't know how we fight the corporations.

[ipaint]

176. You are not alone.

"It no longer matters if Democrats are the majority. We don't see our warfare abroad decreasing. It's expanding. And following an ideological war over healthcare reform, we "won." We got reform. Reform which forces 40 million of America's poorest and hardest working folks into bed with insurance corporations, sucking an additional 70 billion dollars a year in public funds from the citizens' pockets into insurance industry coffers. We don't need the insurance companies at all. Never did. Never will. But they are still leeching us because "we won." We the supposed proponents of universal healthcare, we who believe in the right of all children and old folks, the right of all people to freedom from pain and misery, we won.

After the ceding of issues and principles to ideology, the only exposure to politics the people got was to ideological warfare. And the only way they got to vote was based on ideology. The left was entirely sucked into this game. Now it's the only game in town and will remain so. You cannot backtrack on pure meanness once it is unleashed, because if you quit playing the game, soften up and exhibit compassion, the opposition eats you alive next election. Calls you the kumbaya crowd and mocks you mercilessly through its extensive network of media puppets, a la Beck, Limbaugh. The crowd loves mockery. Meanwhile the nation continues to rot under a soulless ideological sun. Perishing for want of a drink from compassion's cup.

I think many Americans voted for Obama because in their minds he represented the promise of a more compassionate America. They forgot, or chose to forget, that the promise was a political promise. Which is to say it was all either just smoke, or unfulfillable by even the best intended mortal in such a heavily armed high stakes whorehouse. Some of the best among us have thrown in the towel, lost all faith in the political process. Frankly, in my 63 years as an American I've never seen more hearts broken nor more bitter people created by a single event. And that includes the Vietnam War."

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2009/11/-shoot-the-fat-guys.html

Clinton did it for me. Watching his administration rip apart the poor and working class was enough.
Thanks for expressing so well the real betrayal so many feel.

[stopbush]

178. So, you don't think third parties are as much a charade as the major parties?

Interesting.

[Kermitt Gribble]

179. I can't rec this enough.

My political life has followed a very similar path to yours, my family being United Steelworkers and Teamsters. Somehow, we are now the outcasts of the party. Most excellent post, scarletwoman! K&R

[bobthedrummer]

189. I don't have religion, but I have faith-those in the Democratic Party that abandoned US decades ago

(US=we, the people and traditional pre-DLC Democratic voting base) that took impeachment off the table, that are global corporatist privatizing fascists, that believe that national security requires more mercenaries while our troops and their families are increasingly discarded, that are engaged in the type of politicized semantics and legalisms last witnessed in both the Third Reich and the former Soviet Union while ignoring the blood and suffering to remain in power-well that's obviously a false religion scarletwoman.

I have faith in the hope not seen, the spiritual power denied by TPTB, especially when there seems no hope at all-not any other type, specifically politicized perception management rhetoric.

K&R.

[Divine Discontent]

192. hear hear

[Dr.Phool]

193. You hit that one out of the park.

I couldn't take it anymore, and I left the party.

I resigned from my DEC when they voted to keep funding the slaughter in Iraq. I registered as an independent after the last FISA vote. And outrage after outrage, just keeps coming. From "our" side.

I'll never vote for a Republican. But, there are plenty of Democrats I'll never vote for again.

[David Zephyr]

194. Righteous rant. Truth to power. K&R.

:thumbsup:

[Steely_Dan]

198. Amazing How You Reflect...

just how I feel. You put into words better than I ever could. I am so disappointed in the whole process. I feel like I have been put out to pasture. My "original" belief in what it meant to be a Democrat has been forever changed. I did not change. The Democratic Party changed. For the first time in my life I have no faith in my party or those who claim to operate on our behalf.

-P

[moondust]

200. Sad state of affairs.

The Republican Party is a bad joke that is plainly not a viable alternative, and if the Democratic Party is unwilling or unable to do what is best for the vast majority of Americans then what choice does that leave?

K/R

[enigmatic]

208. K&R

I'm w/ you on this.

[varelse]

209. I'm coming back around to the same view myself

2008 was an exception for me in that I 1) participated in the primary election 2) donated to the Democratic candidate. That is unlikely to be the case in 2010 or any election thereafter, sadly.

[Edweird]

210. My sentiments exactly. K&R.

[Oldtimeralso]

215. As A Lifelong Democrat I Feel the Same.

I am the same age and from a similar background, even agree with the comment in your profile. I long for the days when I marched for Peace, I was in the park in '68, I was in many civil right demonstrations. Where are the young people now? I do think I have been sold done the river but I still have to look at the lesser of the evils.

I also tell everyone that Clinton was the best Republican president we have had since Teddy Roosevelt. Look at his trade policies, foreign policies and his budget surplus. The neocons have taken over the GOP and now fear the lunatic fringe, after creating it.

Is a third party the answer? No, IMHO. The PEOPLE need to take the Democratic party back. The primary fights are where this needs tobe done so prepare for 2010 and especially for 2012!

[Vinca]

236. I'm glad I read your response. This morning I said that one of my

New Year's resolutions would be to stick my head in the sand and avoid all things political. Yesterday, I was muttering about third parties. You make the most sense of anything I've read or heard. We need to take the damn party back and that can only happen at the polls in the primaries. Now all we need is bona fide Democratic candidates.

[YvonneCa]

287. You are right. Our work is...

...not finished. We Democrats need to remember what we have been fighting for. After the past eight years under GWB, the country was headed TOTALLY in the wrong direction...on every issue. EVERY issue. And they are important issues:

Getting it right in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Living up to our country's values.
Stopping illegal spying.
Health care Reform.
Changing energy policy/Climate Change.
Getting our economy on track.
Education.
Etc. Etc.


But our goal in 2004 was not JUST to elect John Kerry. We fought to elect a president who would start to turn the country around.

The goal in 2006 was not JUST to grow Democratic Party support in Congress (which we did). We fought to grow a Congress that would enact the needed changes to turn the country around.

The goal in 2008 was not JUST to elect Barack Obama President (which we also did ). We worked hard to elect a president who would start to turn the country around.

We are in a better place today because we unified around our goal and fought hard to make it a reality. No matter which issue was our 'favorite' issue, we kept our "eyes on the prize." Obama's election was no accident. Nor did it happen 'magically'. It took determination, stamina, perseverance, relentless effort and FOCUS from Democrats of all stripes.

We Democrats have much to be proud of. I believe we WILL get health care reform this time around. But we haven't yet reached our most important goal. For 2010, we SHOULD grow Congress again... not JUST because we want more Democrats there, but because THAT is how we will turn the country around.

Eyes on the Prize...

[harun]

218. I knew the Dem's were going to have issues when they tried to make

their supporters happy at the same time as making their Corporate donors happy. Getting that river of money yet trying to keep the base happy. An impossible goal. One that is going to take them down.

[Raster]

222. Democracy and corporate money DO NOT MIX!

There is no better example that the mess we are in today. We may elect our government, but once installed they spend the majority of their time kowtowing to the corporate plutocracy.

And being a centrist and governing from the center is just a nice way of saying "we will, again, be putting the corporate-monied interests before the interests of the people."

Centrist = collaborator.

[Cleita]

228. Both parties have been taken over by business interests.

I don't know how we are going to get our progressives back in charge. Every time we get decent candidates the party nabobs marginalize them and put DLCers in their place. I'm fed up too.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

229. I feel the same way

I briefly hoped for real change in 2004, but I always knew that Obama was a fake populist. Still, I voted for him (not at the caucuses, though) because the thought of McCain was so horrible.

I knew the country was going off a cliff at 60mph, but I thought that if Obama was like Bill Clinton, we could at least slow the plunge to 30 mph and buy some time.

Nope, Obama has let up on the accelerator only slightly, so we're now going off the cliff at 55mph. If he's serious about increasing the number of troops in Afghanistan, that might go up to 70mph.

The Democratic Party has betrayed the American people.

[SutaUvaca]

235. Heavy sigh..

Before I could vote I talked my parents (Eisenhower republicans) into voting for JFK. From adulthood on I was a registered and occasionally happy Democrat, though now have been an Independent for four years.

It is frustrating to hear a strong candidate declare that they stand for this and this and this, and then work to get them elected, and then see them move as corporations would have them move. Obama has done many fine things so far, but I want more. I believed more was possible.

Will there ever be an electable third party candidate, an electable Progressive, a people's representative that I can vote for? Someone who declares what they stand for and then has the balls, and the Secret Service protection, to stand against the corporations, to mark the hate pundits publicly, to be a peace-monger.

I'm 62, and I'm tired of voting for disappointment, tired of settling.

[Doc Martin]

238. I am close behind you

I am about to completely give up on politics and politicians. Obama is a painful disappointment.

[pundaint]

239. Let's find true progressives for the primaries.

You are so right. Without differentiation in legislative actions, there is no reason for two parties or even elections for that matter. The Republicans can be the party of no because the Democrats will pass a Republican agenda anyway.

Just like working to build shareholder equity, which once was an outcome, has become the only goal, being returned to power is now the only Congressional goal.

The MBA's have led us to ignore qualitative analyses in favor of exclusively quantitative ones, destroying business management in America. Our rich collection of goals, aspirations, principles and ideals, have all been subordinated to what is mistakenly called bottom line "thinking." For instance bribing a Congressman to get his vote used to be bad, now it's called a lobbying expense.

The bottom line that Congress deserves, and we must provide, is new butts in their seats the first week of 2011, every one! (Kucinich can run for Senator)..

[Better Believe It]

240. K & R

I understand your feelings.

[parasearchers]

241. I am ready to vote repuke, just to put an end to this game.

The country needs 2-3 generations of starvation and maybe famine to wake up.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

242. +100

[winyanstaz]

243. I am also a life-long dem...but I am looking for someone to believe in...

and I dont care if they are third party...I have had enough too.
The only dems that keep me trying to stay in the dem party are Kucinich and the very few like him.
Dennis...if you can read this...please take barbara boxer and the rest that at least sometimes try...and start a new party!

[EmeraldCityGrl]

244. This thread should be sent to the White House,

Reid and Pelosi.There are some very powerful voices and words of experience and wisdom here.

I'm sure they don't have a clue how deep the discontent in their party is.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

288. I wil be sending this on Monday --

to the DNC, O, and Congressional Leaders -- they need to see this. We may not be the ones to send them the big donations, but we are the ones who register voters, walk precints, and GOTV.

[scarletwoman]

291. I don't know if they'll care, but I certainly applaud the idea.

Thank you!

sw

[Yuugal]

246. K&R

I've just had enough. I'm still healing from my NAFTA insertion and now I need a pacific rimjob? No thanks.

[jpak]

248. "I don't think I'll bother voting anymore, or I'll vote third party."

"....but don't you dare accuse me of being a handmaiden for the GOP."

All of the above benefits the GOP.

I dare you tell me why it doesn't.

[scarletwoman]

260. I'm done with playing along with a false dichotomy. Seriously.

Both parties serve the same masters. I'm not going to allow myself to be subjected to such an outrageous charade out of fear.

Why should we put up this shit any longer? Why should we keep enabling the fucking pretense that one party supposedly represents our interests when BOTH parties solely represent the interests of the Owner Class?

The corporate big money interests own BOTH parties. As Emma Goldman so eloquently put it, "If voting actually changed anything, it would be illegal."

sw

[jpak]

262. This is what got Bush elected in Florida in 2000

I'm done dealing with false Dem GOP enablers.

[EFerrari]

264. Bush was not elected in Florida in 2000. n/t

[scarletwoman]

265. If calling me a "false Dem" makes you feel better, then go for it.

Obviously, what I have to say is irrelevant to you.

Peace,
sw

[jpak]

272. If one doesn't vote or doesn't vote for a Dem then one is irrelevent

except to the GOP

We had 8 years of Bush thanks attitudes to that.

yup

now that makes me feel better

[defendandprotect]

275. That's a questionable Plan B .... if we don't have IRV voting . . .

We need more options --

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

290. The votes of the left are available to the Dems if they earn them.

Which they won't do if they move to the right.

As in continuing a lost war to convince the moderates that our guy is "tough".

[scarletwoman]

249. To all the wonderful, thoughtful posters in this thread: deeper thanks than I can possibly express.

I've just finished reading every single post in this thread, and there are many dozens of posts I'd like to be able to respond to. I just want to say a huge "thank you" to everyone at once -- I'm so touched that so many DUers found resonance in what was a completely impulsive OP on my part.

The discussion on this thread has been both heartbreakingly honest, and wonderfully illuminating. I am delighted and humbled -- I hardly ever start threads, generally prefering to stay quietly in the background allowing the sturm and drung of DU to swirl around me while I simply observe.

My heart goes out to everyone who has professed feeling the same as I do. I wish I had a good answer to offer, I wish I could say, "Okay, now here's what we can do about this." As an old hippie, my one basic admonition is, "Stop cooperating with the forces that enslave you."

Don't buy what they're trying to sell you. Don't fall for for the charade. Do what Gandhi did, withdraw your consent to injustice and the falsehoods promoted by those who seek to control you.

Make your own salt.

Peace to you all,
sw

[G_j]

254. you said it

that really is the answer.

Stop cooperating with the forces that enslave you

Your op was significant in that you effectively expressed something for a lot of people with sincerity and honesty.
We are real people after all, with a vast array of experience and knowledge, and love.
and this ain't really a game after all.

[scarletwoman]

256. My humble thanks, dear soul.

Your kind words and support mean so much to me!

All I've ever wanted is to serve in small way to the awakening of human consciousness in the world. It's so much more than politics.

I love what you've said: "We are real people after all, with a vast array of experience and knowledge, and love."

A thousand thank yous,
sw

[Nay]

250. I can't agree with you more. Your life was just like mine. And now I

have no one to vote for -- maybe in the primaries, but not at the final winner-take-all vote. I also have decided to either not vote or vote for the Socialist Party. Clinton's NAFTA made me queasy, and Obama started to make me nauseated exactly when he made you sick -- with the economics guys.

This is not going to end well. We all had to really smarten up, and we REALLY had to come up with someone who could be another FDR, and we haven't. This is the endgame, folks, and we haven't pulled it off.

[Raine]

252. TOTALLY on point

you echo my feelings exactly! :thumbsup:

[DemBones DemBones]

257. Tell it like it is!

[earth mom]

261. delete

[earth mom]

267. The bullies around DU-especially GD-P-have run rampant since the primaries.

I've been accused of all kinds of bullshit, called all kinds of names, told that I'm a fucking teabagger.

Not to mention all the times I've been alerted on which has resulted in TWO formal DU warnings, the last of which was a quite nasty message that no doubt came from one of the pom pom carrying bullies on GD-P.

So yeah, I totally hear you and it pisses me off to the nth degree.

But given all the excellent threads I've seen here on GD the past couple of days where people are honestly saying they didn't buy into the kind of hope & change that escalates the war overseas, or continues the Patriot Act, etc., I'm not feeling quite so alone.

It would have been easier to just say fuck it and never come back to DU, but HELL NO-Never Give Up!!!


So, Great Rant-I'm so glad that there are still people like you here on DU! :hi:

[Mari333]

269. hugs. knr. I feel the same way.

[Political Heretic]

271. This is happening more and more. Momentum is building for a PEOPLE'S change. K&R

[scarletwoman]

273. Thank you. We'll see. Lots of folks just want the comfort of cheering for "their team".

I don't blame them in the least, I totally understand.

Who wants to face the idea that there's no one in power who's actually on your side? It's damn scary. It means there's nothing to believe in except your own inner truth. It means losing your religion. ;)

sw

[defendandprotect]

274. Elites will naturally do what they can to corrupt a "people's" government . ..

and any party such as the Democratic Party which once did represent the needs of the

people --

we have to find a way to deal with this --

And we need a Plan B --

What is it?

Democratic Party has been corrupted -- from DLC -- to CIA attacks on candidates -- to

NRA attacks on candidates -- from hacked computers and stolen elections to health care!

And Democratic Party is not dealing with it ... nor is Obama . .. they are being moved

to the right by the DLC which is now in the White House!!

So -- what is Plan B?

What are our options?

We'd be insane to continue on as we are -- IMO!

[defendandprotect]

276. Michael Moore, Wm. Greider and a few others have spoken about new tactics . . .

I'd follow any of their recommendations -- and work for them, if they truly move

on changing the Democratic Party and moving it to the LEFT -- !!!

I'd be there!!!


But, whatever liberals and progressives decide to do about this WE HAVE TO DO TOGETHER . . .

IN A BLOC --

***********************************************

[scarletwoman]

277. The only way true change will happen is through change on the ground, not electoral politics.

Both political parties are wholly owned by the Owner Class and serve the interests of the Owner Class. Stop looking to electoral politics for your rescue.

sw

[WillyT]

278. Right There With You SW... Couldn't Have Said It Better Myself... K & R !!!

I posted the other day that maybe we should all just re-register as Independents, and only caucus with the Democrats when they deserve it. Since Independents are the only ones either party pays attention to.

Post got locked as "working against the Democratic Party".

:wtf:

I've been working FOR the Democratic Party for over 35 years!!!

When do they start working for me?

:shrug:

Peace...

:hi:

[Stumbler]

279. Too late to rec, but I fully agree

[scarletwoman]

280. Thank you. (nt)

[maryf]

284. Thanksgiving thanks to a truth teller!!

Can't rec, but can cheer from here, and kick this for today!

[shadesofgray]

285. I could have written this. Too late to recommend but thank you.

[Blue_In_AK]

293. Sing it, Sister.

I totally agree. :thumbsup:

[scarletwoman]

294. Thank you! I'm glad you found this thread!

Hope you had a fine Thanksgiving.

:hug:
sw

[Blue_In_AK]

295. We did have a fine Thanksgiving, thank you.

I started cooking on Monday and made a fine feast for six. I'm still full. :)

I have much to be thankful for this year on a personal level, but looking at the larger picture, I'm worried. I wasn't really particularly moved by President Obama's campaign -- I liked his speeches, but wondered if he could live up to his promises -- but I was hoping that my cynicism would be nullified for a change. ... No such luck. They just keep on letting us down, don't they?

[MSchreader]

296. Class warfare

"It was the Democrats that put me here, the Democrats that have betrayed the faith of generations of my family. No one else." Yes, but why? I would argue that it is because you are collateral damage from class warfare.

For decades, working people have looked to the Democratic Party as "their" party, as the party that represents their general interests in the political arena (whether it actually did, of course, is another question). But over the last two decades, all remaining pretense of acting in the interests of working people, even half-heartedly or sporadically, has evaporated under the heat of a corporatist assault -- under pressure from the corporatist elements of the party, from the Republicans, and from the ruling classes as a whole.

I remember seven years ago posting an article on here, "You Cannot Serve Two Masters", where I talked about this problem in the wake of the 2002 Congressional election. It's pretty clear that, in the time since, the leadership of the party has made it clear that they have made their choice. All the examples that so many have posted here and in other threads point to this harsh reality.

So the question becomes: Now what?

And a few ideas are being thrown around here: join the Greens or another amorphous "third party", abstain from political activity except when absolutely necessary, keep on fighting in the hopes to carve out a space, etc. I'd like to suggest another course for you and my other brothers and sisters reading this thread.

First of all, this is not about the party "moving right" -- "left" and "right" are little more than points along the same line, and shifting from one to the other doesn't result in any deviation from that line. I would contend that the real issue here is not "left" versus "right", but class versus class. This is about the fact that the Democratic Party has cut itself loose from its ties to the working class -- ties bound together during the New Deal and Great Society -- and has chosen to be a political party that only responds to the desires and interests of the owners and managers in society.

IMO, this class-based perspective should be the starting point for considering a future course of action. If you are being locked out of the Democratic Party because your interests as a worker are no longer welcome or represented, then it would seem that your interests as a working person should be the focal point for determining your next moves. More to the point, when you start looking for alternatives, it would only make sense that you begin by looking at organizations that reflect -- indeed, embody! -- your interests as a working person first and foremost.

What are a worker's class interests? Quite simply, they are the ethics and "morals" (for lack of a better term) that brought you to the Democratic Party originally: social justice and equality; the right to live a decent life; the freedom from want and need; peace for you and your children; etc. The experience of over two centuries of capitalism have concretized these ethical and "moral" concepts into a broad political platform: an end to exploitation and oppression; democratic control of society by the working majority; abolition of classes and class antagonisms; a society of general freedom.

And how do we get there? We organize ourselves, build our own organizations and movements, educate ourselves to be not simply the "grunt workers" of a movement, but its theoretical and practical leaders, all with the goal of sweeping out the system of exploitation in production, repression in the streets, and destruction here and abroad. And, most importantly, we do it ourselves, for each other. We don't rely on some self-serving and self-appointed leader to do it for us. The task of liberating ourselves is ours alone; just because they call themselves "expert" doesn't mean it's true. We are intelligent people; everything they know, we can learn, and anything we know, they can never learn. Or, to put it simply: we built this world; we can build the next.

Doing this might mean making a break with pragmatism. But then, what has that ideology actually led to? Today, everything is a bargaining chip, including our lives, livelihoods and rights. They can be "negotiated" or "compromised" away by those in power without so much as a second thought. Why? Because it's not their lives, livelihoods or rights at stake. They tell us to stay within the boundaries of the status quo. And they know we workers will as long as we consent to going along with the pragmatic way of doing things.

In the interests of full disclosure, I will tell you that I am a member of the Workers Party in America -- http://www.workers-party.com -- a small workers' political party that promotes the perspective outlined above. All of us have been where you are at one point or another in our lives, so we understand the conflict going on internally over this issue. I mention this only to make sure you understand where I'm coming from, and so that you know my bias.

All I ask of you is that you give due consideration to another perspective than the ones already mentioned. What you do after that is entirely up to you, but I hope to talk with you all again about these questions.

P.S.: Please don't feel like I'm being cold about this. I have to compensate for the rush of emotions that I deal with when thinking about this issue, and I can only do that by writing this way. Don't hold it against me, OK?

[scarletwoman]

297. I don't find your post "cold" at all. I'm happy to have your voice added to this thread.

My posts on DU over the past 8+ years have constantly referenced the class war -- I've lost count of how many times I've simply posted, "No war but class war!"

I've also consistently asserted that we need to break free from focusing on electoral politics and partisan identification and instead concentrate our energies on building up a social movement outside of electoral and partisan politics.

It has long been my belief that the way to free ourselves from the oppressions of the dominant system is to build our own alternative community-based structures that operate outside of it and unbeholden to it. To whatever degree we are able, we need to cease cooperating with our own enslavement.

As I said in one of my other posts on this thread, in reference to Gandhi, we need to make our own salt.

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

sw

[MSchreader]

298. Thanks for the kind words

You sound like someone who might be interested in an organization like the Workers' International Industrial Union, which works to build One Great Union of all working people that can fight for our interests in both the economic and political arenas.

I'm the interim head of the WIIU's Organizing Department, so I guess if I'm going to shill, it should be for the WIIU -- http://www.wiiu.org :evilgrin:

[scarletwoman]

300. Well, goodness knows I've been called a "commie pinko" often enough in my life.

:D

I must beg off further discussion for tonight, however -- it's late and I'm so tired I can barely keep one eye squinted open enough to type this.

I'll come back to this tomorrow and endeavor to respond with something hopefully approaching a degree of intellectual acuity.

Thank you again for the conversation,
sw

[newspeak]

299. You speak for me SW

most of my relatives are FDR Democrats. I sighed in relief when Clinton was elected because NAFTA was being discussed under Bush. When NAFTA passed, I felt betrayal. I remember Clinton telling all Americans on TV, that we were going to emphasize service sector--and look where that's gotten us. Politics has been perceived by the public more like a football game-instead of looking out for our best interest, it's more like "our team won." But, what have we won?

It seems that the same players, since Reagan, are still involved--and it is not in the interest of this country or for the majority of the American people.

My hubby's cousin came to visit today. He's always been more of a conservative. Well, he moved to Canada and his perceptions are changing. Health care reform was discussed--he told me that he pays more taxes in Canada but he wouldn't trade his health benefits for anything. If he gets ill, his care is something he doesn't have to worry about. What do we actually get with our taxes--most pay sales tax, federal income tax, property tax, and some, state tax. We get to pay for private military contractors (some with corrupt billing), unaccounted for pentagon expenditures (didn't Rumsfeld state that approximately two trillion dollars was accounted?); never ending war for corporate interest; and bank bailouts (also, mostly accountable, who got us into this mess with de-regulation). Those same corporate interest that probably don't pay their fair share of taxes. So, as American workers lose their decent paying jobs, lose their pensions-we still pay taxes, for what? Simple decent health care? Repairing our infrastructure? Education for the future of our country and our families? Preserving our national heritage? Helping those communities in need?

I will promote any candidate who cares for the well being of the majority of the American people. A candidate like Bernie Sanders or Kuccinich-any progressive candidate, I will support--I don't give a damn what political party (of course, ya'll know it won't ever be a Republican)--because, I don't see any Republican party voting for the interest of the people over the interest of big business. And, we are talking big business. I can't understand why small businesses vote against their own interest. They think the repug politicians actually are looking out for them? Between them and a big competitor, they're going to pick Goliath over David every time. And, some small businesses don't understand that.

If there were enough people-people who think beyond political affiliation-think more in terms of the interest of the majority of American people, of communities-people who could form into a strong grassroots group. A group that stood for a simple, cohesive message-labor rights, civil rights
etc. Maybe, said group could be strong enough to push for candidates that represent the whole. A group that could have more influence than the DLC-one that in its strength could get their candidate promoted over the DLC or beltway darling. Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but that's how I feel we can take back the party. If we can't take it back, then I'm more than willing to vote for those Democrats that actually stand for the American people and vote for those independent candidates who are going to represent our interests (like Bernie Sanders, who is a damn fine Democratic Socialist).

[scarletwoman]

301. Thank you. I'm really touched by how many people have shown up in this thread saying that they feel

the same. Please forgive me for not giving your excellent post the detailed response that it deserves, I'm just thoroughly done in for the night.

Thank you for writing,
sw

[donheld]

302. You are not leaving the party

The Party is leaving you

[scarletwoman]

303. Past tense -- the Party has left me, and all of us. Unless you are a lobbyist.

Looking back, it seems to me that the last time honest, unabashed liberalism was being espoused by a Democratic leader was LBJ's push for Civil Rights and for his "Great Society".

Carter had his heart in the right place on a number of issues, but he was sabotaged at every turn by the DC "Villagers".

And that was pretty much it. The end of a Democratic party that actually championed the little guy.

sw