Viet Namistan

[trof]

Pundits have said "Noooo, the 'war' in Afghanistan isn't like Viet Nam".
Bullshit.
It is.
Same song and I have no idea what verse we're on now.

I'm half way through Stanley Karnow's excellent "VIETNAM - A History".
So far it reads exactly like a precursor for what we're doing in Afghanistan.

Supporting a corrupt and ineffectual government.
check

Fighting 'insurgents'.
check

Killing loads of innocent civilians..."collateral damage".
check

Spending billions of dollars badly needed at home on foreign incursions.
check

If we're not 'getting the job done', the answer is SEND IN MORE TROOPS!
check.

Screwing up the lives of thousands of our troops.
check

Can any of you folks here tell me exactly what it is we're trying to accomplish there? Besides wasting more money and lives because we've already wasted a lot of money and lives?

Hasn't Al Qaeda hauled ass to Pakistan?
Or parts unknown?
Are we trying to wipe out a fundamentalist religious group?
The Taliban?
Hunh?

If we're gonna do that I'd rather start here at home.
OK, that's a bit extreme.
I'm not serious.
:shrug:

[Taverner]

1. Graveyard of Empires is all I gotta say

And it isn't just the UK, Alexander's Greece and the USSR...

[trof]

3. Yeah, I read that article.

How come we can't get smart?
:shrug:

[Taverner]

6. It's not just an article...

It seems like every "Empire" just wastes untold amounts of resources there, whether short term or long term...

death by slow bleeding...

And yeah, how come we can't learn history to not repeat its mistakes?

[trof]

26. Here's the article I was thinking of:

Why Afghans Dig Empire Graveyards
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/112309b.html

[PuraVidaDreamin]

18. Stupid move

[jonnyblitz]

20. great sign!!

:hi:

[PuraVidaDreamin]

24. Thanks!

Just wish it didn't have to be made.

Shanti

[jonnyblitz]

25. it was inevitable. i knew it was at least.

no surprises here.

[Demeter]

2. It's a Corporation War

Of, by and for the Corporations, who are the money behind the NeoCons in foreign policy think tanks, the money behind the NeoLiberal economistswho brought us Infinite Debt and Debt Securities, and the money behind the DLC and the remains of the GOP that still pay any attention to some part of reality in Congress and the White House.

End the Corporations!

[Taverner]

8. I think we'll end the war before we end corporations...

Although hope springs eternal...

[tekisui]

4. It is bullshit.

We are digging ourselves into a hole we cannot afford.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

19. Peace of the Action

see you in the spring

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. Who's the NVA in this scenario?

Or China?

[tekisui]

7. We are funding both sides.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. Ah, a conspiracy.

I see.

Does mercury in vaccines and the bombing of the moon enter into it?

[tekisui]

12. The Taliban have infiltrated the Afghan police and military.

No conspiracy. Also, money flows in to the insurgents through Pakistan. Not a conspiracy at all.

It doesn't have to be identical to Vietnam to justify the comparison.

[Taverner]

11. The NVA was only one belligerent in the Vietnam War

At different times there were Chinese, Russian, Cuban, KMT, NVA, Viet Cong (different than NVA), Viet Minh, Khmer Rouge, Cao Dai Warrior-Monks, and assorted Maoists and Leninists.

That was the problem - no fixed enemy or exit strategy.

[trof]

15. You been doin' your homework.

And don't forget the Vietminh, the Hoa Hoa, and the Buddhist monks.

[Taverner]

16. I did list the Viet Minh (but not the Hoa Hoa and the Buddhist Monks)

But, yeah

[panader0]

10. Why can't the military objectives be accomplished by

stationing a few destroyers off the coast with smart missles? Any Al Queda movements could be crushed in minutes with no harm to our soldiers and at an immensely smaller cost.

[Thothmes]

23. President Clinton tried the missile approach

managed to damage a few sand dunes in Afghanistan and a baby milk factory in Sudan.

[branders seine]

13. So the President wants an exit strategy to go along with his surge.

How about a mission? We've never had a mission. Why are our sons and daughters dying there? It was to get bin Laden. Then it wasn't to get bin Laden. Then it was to destroy al Qaeda. Then we made sure that al Qaeda could excape into Pakistan. Then it was to drive out the Taliban and install a democracy. Then it wasn't. The Taliban is now strong everywhere except downtown Kabul, and Karzai is as far from "democratic" as a government can be. Now, no one seems to know why the hell we are there.

I think the fascist cabal at the heart of our military-security complex just want to keep their war on, and Obama is afraid of them.

[trof]

21. True dat. We kept moving the goalposts in Viet Nam too. eom

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

14. As General Douglas MacArthur said to JFK in 1961

and as reiterated in the movie The Princess Bride: "never get involved in a land war in Asia". MacArthur apparently knew the high cost, first hand.

[amborin]

17. graveyard of empires, and total folly!

sorry to say but the place has engaged in tribal conflict for centuries; it's almost hard-wired; will take centuries to develop some other system.

it will NOT make US safer from terra to ratchet up our presence.

i do think we need SOME continued SMALL presence; but nothing like we've currently got, let alone the plans to increase our levels.

just total insanity, especially since the real problem is in Pakistan---a nuclear-armed rogue state, whose ISI is heavily queda-infiltrated, etc.

[robertpaulsen]

22. No comparison. Afghanistan is in the mountains, Vietnam was in the jungle.

Oh, in case anyone doesn't get it:

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[trof]

28. Oh hell. That's shoots me down.

:rofl:

[douglas9]

27. Check List Add: "Secret War" n/t