"Well, when did YOU serve?"

[arbusto_baboso]

Has a wingnut ever made that statement to you?

Anytime you say anything pro-peace, or what THEY interpret as "anti troops" which can be any range of things, a wingnut is bound to reply "when did YOU serve?"

There's a big issue I have with this line of "logic". First, more often than not, the person asking that question has never served, much in the way he is implying that you have not.

Second, it implies that veterans or currently serving personnel in our military somehow have special, arcane knowledge of all things defense related, which is simply untrue.

Third, there's a severe double standard at work here. John Kerry served and was decorated, Jimmy Carter served honorably, yet Dumbya avoided much of his guard duty, and Reagan served in a friggin' MOVIE UNIT in WWII fer chrissakes! So, one has to be a vet to speak on defense issues, but ONLY if you agree with Rethug opinions on those issues, and if you agree, then you don't have to be much of a vet at all.

Fourth, it implies that somehow veterans have some sort of character traits which put them above the ordinary citizen. While those who do and have served are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice on behalf of their nation and deserve due consideration for that, they are in every other sense no different from everyone else. Most are good people, but some are very much the opposite. Lee Harvey Oswald, Timothy McVeigh and Lyndie England spring to mind.

Fifth, it assumes that all uniformed personnel think the same way. While serving you can't really show any dissent, due to this little thing called the UCMJ. But that doesn't mean that everyone who has ever worn a uniform is a rightie. Far from it.

Finally, if we were to take this thinking to a logical conclusion, then saying you have to have served to say anything critical about the military is like saying you have to have a vagina to have any opinion about abortion, pro or anti-choice. And I'm sure no wingnut would ever agree with that sentiment.

[LWolf]

1. I serve every day

in America's classrooms.

There is more than one kind of service.

[arbusto_baboso]

2. Good point.

[Bigmack]

37. I've told them to their faces....

4 years in the Marine Corps - including 13 months in Vietnam - and 30 years in a High School classroom. I don't have to do any more to prove my service... or my courage!

[LWolf]

41. No, you don't. nt

[arbusto_baboso]

43. I'm not sure which one would be more terrifying. n/t

[annarbor]

63. Thank you for your service...

and Semper Fi!

[tabasco]

54. Yes, there is.

Fortunately, many types of service do not involve snipers, IEDs, malaria, daily fear of death, lack of sleep, basic training and years away from home.

[LWolf]

62. Service is service.

Although serving in the nation's classrooms DOES involve risk of gunfire and other violence, constant exposure to illnesses, lack of sleep, and more time away from home, and time spent working in the home instead of having a personal life, than the average person understands.

[JANdad]

69. Please...

Do not equate a classroom with a combat zone...please...it makes you seem...well...rather uneducated...

[LWolf]

72. Please don't twist what I say.

And please don't use passive-aggressive name-calling to attempt to make your point.

A classroom is not a combat zone. A combat zone, however, can be an apt metaphor for the classroom.

Teachers also serve.

There is more than one kind of service, and that's a fact you just can't get around.

[old mark]

3. Most of the RW media people ran far away when their turn came to serve -

I did, and I know many others here-"liberal socialist commies"- who served as well.

We can easily ask the righties the same question.
You are correct-the military represents a whole cross section of people and opinions - never was the right wing monolith they love to imagine.
FWIW, they like to think the same about the Secret Service.
They are wrong there, too.

mark

[arbusto_baboso]

9. Thanks for saying so.

I'm glad I got the agremment (and more importantly, the understanding) of a vet.

Thing is, a lotta folks think I'm slamming vets when I say this stuff. Are they just LOOKING to take offense?

[old mark]

23. Some people will slam you for no reason at all.

I got shit yesterday for asking for people's opinions...


mark

[BOSSHOG]

18. Me and You Mark

Wer'e just candy assed sissy liberals (who happen to have served in the military)

Meanwhile limbaugh and beck are proud "Patriots."

I can still chew some ass like the ole days so wingnuts who know me don't breach the subject of military service.

[old mark]

24. All this and a Phillies fan, too!

Have a great thanksgiving, Top.

mark
Former Sp4, 1/504PIR

[BOSSHOG]

35. Hey Mark

I think I was a Phillie fan before I was born. My grandparents lived six blocks from Connie Mack Stadium and my Grandpa took me to alot of Phillie games when I was a little buckeroo. A neighbor espied my Phillie license plate on the front of my truck last year and good naturedly called me a fair weather fan. I said yeah I've been a fair weather fan for 50+ years.

And a Great Thanksgiving to you and your family Mark.

Even though you are only a candy assed liberal, I salute you for your service to our country and wish you fair winds and following seas along your life's path.

[YOY]

4. Folks like Taverner and I have served more than your average FReep.

n.t.

[Ozymanithrax]

5. Actually, yes. Then I show them my retired military ID. But there are easier answers.

We each serve every time we vote.
We each serve every time we pay taxes.
We each serve whenever we answer stupid questions posed by right wing idiots about politics, and they serve when they ask.
when we are active as citizens and take a stand, no matter how small, we serve the nation.

What I find even more annoying is when some right wing asshole tries to short circuit a conversation about civic responsibility by saying "thank you for your service."

[unhappycamper]

66. My Bronze Star license plates say it all. n/t

[MineralMan]

6. When I am asked that question, I answer with the dates of

my military service, then ask them the same question. Typically, they have not been in the military and the point is made. If they don't believe me, I'm happy to show them my VA registration card.

[Cleita]

7. Funny since most of them probably didn't from the time we got a volunteer army.n/t

[Birthmark]

8. Fortunately for me, I'm a veteran.

I love that question since it frequently comes from those who didn't serve.

[SIMPLYB1980]

10. Our side does the same stupid shit.

:shrug:

Obama hasn't served does that make him unfit for CIC?

[arbusto_baboso]

14. Not at all. The captain of a ship doesn't have to be an expert engineer or helmsman.

He just has to know enough about those subjects to know if he HAS a good engineer or helmsman.

[phasma ex machina]

11. Ronald Reagan has a stack of three by five cards in his lap.

He skids up a new one: "What advice do you, as the youngest American fighting man ever to win both the Navy Cross and the Silver Star, have for any young Marines on their way to Guadalcanal?"
Shaftoe doesn't have to think very long...
"Just kill the one with the sword first."
"Ah...Smarrrt—you target them because they're the officers, right?"
"No, fuckhead!" Shaftoe yells. "You kill 'em because they've got fucking swords! You ever had anyone running at you waving a fucking sword?"

* Chapter 11, "Nightmare" Cryptonomicon

[onethatcares]

36. I can tell by your post my friend that

we agree. All st ronnie ever was, was just an actor. if it wasn't for the screen actors guild, he'd abeen a flop.

Peace.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

12. Yeah, and best of all he was a phoney and a Navy officer was there

We particularly admired his Women's Army Corps Service Medal and having received Navy air medals despite claiming to have been an army ranger. It appeared whatever military junk he could find at the fleamarket he pinned on his "uniform" The guy was huge as fuck (atleast 250lbs) and maybe 35.

He was shouting at people at a Kerry campaign appearance and screaming misc. swiftboat bullshit.

[BOSSHOG]

13. I've been on the flipflop of this conversation

In November of 2002 I was in a nice lil bar down the highway chatting about the pending war in Iraq and voicing my opinion that it wouldn't be a good idea. Me and the other old farts were minding our own business in "our bar." A young lad (mid 20's) overheard the conversation and told me (in a loud voice) that I was wrong that we had to go to war in Iraq and that I should join the Army and volunteer for combat duty in Iraq to prove my love of our country. I asked him when he served in the military, that we might have served together. He said, "I haven't served yet." I told him I did 24 years of active duty military and served in a combat zone. He has yet to serve. I thanked him for letting me know that playing the Vet card against fake patriot chickenhawks was a good idea and I haven't stopped since. He quietly left "our" bar.

[ProfessorGAC]

71. Sounds Familiar

You've told that story before, i think. Even the "our bar" part rang a bell.

It's a great story. Which is why i remembered it.
GAC

[barbtries]

15. i've never been asked that,

but i think if i was, i'd ask the questioner what that has to do with whatever the subject at hand may be. i am no less a citizen, my rights are not greater or less, my opinion is just as valid...and i believe you are absolutely right that all uniformed personnel do not think the same way. i don't see how persons serving during the bush years could possibly be better informed than the average DU'er for instance. my son was in the Navy in 2003-4 - desk job in VA. he was treated to fox news all day every day at work. fortunately he had me to keep him sane, but others in his command were blissfully, damnably, and willfully ignorant.

[MH1]

16. don't have to be a wingnut to ask that question

just someone who is tired of idiotic statements made by someone who has no clue about the military.

it is not "special, arcane knowledge of all things defense related", but having served in the military does give one some cultural knowledge as well as some training and experience about how certain things work, that someone who has not served would be less likely to know (unless they recognized their ignorance and made an effort to correct it by listening to people who had served). Kind of like never having lived in India, I tend to be careful in making certain assumptions when interacting with my colleagues at work who are from India, and if they tell me something about the culture I do assume they know more than I do.

and having served in the military (or Peace Corps or Vista) rightly should impart a special status over those who have always managed to have "other priorities"

you see I can be liberal on most political issues and still hold these opinions which I am very sure you find offensive. :)

[arbusto_baboso]

20. Not at all offensive. You assume too much about me.

Particularly about my own service.

I've also run into a number of civilians who've spent a grand total of ZERO days in uniform who know more about certain defense issues, technology, history, etc. than most of the 20+ year retirees I've ever met.

[kctim]

27. Just because

you read about it doesn't mean you know jackshit about it. (Not you personally)

MH1 said "cultural knowledge as well as some training and experience about how certain things work," and I guarantee you that the smartest civilian who is up to date on all the latest defense issues, tech and history has NO idea how things REALLY work.

[arbusto_baboso]

29. I've seen some damn good fakers, though.

Some who have only been caught with inquiries into military records. They were good enough to fool many a genuine vet. There are damn few of them, but they do exist.

[DiverDave]

34. Yep, me too,

One guy, about 24-25 told us he was a ranger/green beret...and would tell the damndest war stories.
Turns out he was a liar and a thief. I saw right through his guff.But my friends believed him, for a time.
I didnt serve in Vietnam, but was stationed in West Germany (when there was such a thing as WEST Germany) and the guys that rotated out from there wouldn't say a word about it, unless they were real drunk.
Tip: If the "big bad vet" brags at all, he is lying.
Oh and for all you lurker freepers, B Troop 1/1st Cav,Schwabach West Germany

[Sinti]

17. You can tell them "I'm unwilling to murder others on behalf of multinational corporations"

You don't need to have been a soldier to promote peace. This is not to say that people who join the military see themselves as anything other than protecting the nation - they are raised with different information.

[Diane R]

19. I tell them my only brother was killed in Vietnam, and if anyone knows the price of war, I do.

[Lasher]

21. I always counter by saying vets have no exclusive privilege to opine concerning the military.

I sometimes let them figure out later that I am a vet.

[mullard12ax7]

22. I just read a person here saying exactly that

They're asking for mercy because their relative joined the dark side.

[Echo In Light]

25. Why would I be willing to kill innocents, & die to increase profits for powerful corporations?

[OutNow]

26. You're giving the wingnuts too much credit

My BIL is a total Limbaugh assclown who never served a day in the military. That doesn't stop him from assuming he is a military genius by parroting the latest Limbaugh talking point. I saw the lunacy in that strategy when Limbaugh trashed McCain when he ran against Bush in the 2000 primaries. When asked if McCain had an advantage over Bush in the military background category, he snorted that sure McCain was a POW, but that merely means he was dumb enough to get shot down and captured. So I wasn't surprised when Limbaugh used the same dismissive attitude on John Kerry in 2004.

These people are total fucking hypocrites.

And yes, I did serve, but that doesn't make me any better than anyone else. Usually those that served during the Vietnam era were just poorer than those who received deferments like Cheney or hid out in the national guard like Bush.

[krispos42]

28. I've never served and I don't want the military fighting unnecessary wars

Seems logical to me.

So does "I have served and I don't want the military fighting unnecessary wars".



However, "I haven't served and I DO want the military fighting unnecessary wars" is a non-sequitur, IMO.

I mean, it's fun to imagine and stuff, play pretend with "Call of Duty", reading techno-thrillers, and owning a couple of military rifles. But there is a sharp, bright line between a mental exercise and real blood-and-guts.

[hobbit709]

30. I show them my VA card and ask to see theirs.

so far I haven't had one put up yet.

[TexasObserver]

31. Yes, and if you point out the notorious GOP chicken hawks in congress, they explode.

Then they invoke Jane Fonda's name and start talking gibberish.

[Iggo]

32. "While your daddy was away, I served with your mom."

As good an answer to that bullshit as any.

[Ten Bears]

33. I just ask them why that may be important.

Let them lay the groundwork about how military service confers added insight into an opinion, not that I believe it but they do. I can do that because I have ten years of service in my back pocket that if they are asking me that question they don't know about.

[cliffordu]

38. I tell them EXACTLY when I served.

My character traits are nowhere near being above anyone else, however, they are very different from most as a result of that service.

[hughee99]

39. Interestingly enough, I've found this attitude right here on the DU...

not about the military, but express an unpopular opinion regarding education, and you'll quickly hear "So what do YOU teach?" in much the same tone as "when did YOU serve".

[arbusto_baboso]

40. Indeed so.

And other subjects as well.

I remember criticizing the drek that is the Twilight series and getting someone asking me what I've written for publishing.

Then I tell them about my articles in international beer magazines.

[LWolf]

42. Everybody is an expert

when they haven't done the job.

[hughee99]

46. And those who have done the job are all experts as well.

So since we're all experts, we shouldn't have any problem judging one's ideas based on their value, and not on the background of the person proposing them.

[LWolf]

48. The value of an idea is related to

how that idea works in real situations, rather than in theory.

The first step in understanding is to recognize what it is about the current system and structure that inhibits success. The second step is to address the source/s, not the symptoms.

I don't think those who haven't worked within that system know it well enough to judge. Many ideas sound wonderful, and might work in some situations, but without addressing the source/s of dysfunction, none of them will "fix" anything.

[hughee99]

49. So those who haven't been in the system don't know it well enough to judge? n/t

[LWolf]

50. I don't know if I would put it like that.

I'd say that their perspective is important, but missing key elements and information to judge accurately in most cases.

As an educator, I wouldn't want to push even the best ideas forward without the support of the families that I serve.

Neither do I think anyone's great ideas should be pushed forward without the input and support of educators, who know better than the rest how things work on the front lines.

It should be a group effort, based on the perspectives of teachers and the parents and students they work with.

It should not be based on an anti-teacher, anti-education propaganda effort. It should not be based on corporate or political power-holders' agendas.

[hughee99]

51. I agree with much of what you say, but referring to the OP

The point of the "When did you serve?" question is not to assess a person's background and determine their ability to truly understand the situation, it's merely an attempt to cut off debate by attempting to discredit a person without giving any thought to the person's argument, ideas, or point of view.

In almost any situation, those with first hand knowledge, be it teachers, soldiers, politicians, or even management, know their jobs better than those who have never served in such capacities, but there seems to be only a few specific professions that use the "When did you serve?" method of stifling debate.

I would never suggest putting someone with no education experience in charge of a school, but I would give thought to anyone's suggestion even if only to try to find out why it won't work.

[LWolf]

60. All good points.

I have to comment on your last statement: "I would never suggest putting someone with no education experience in charge of a school, but I would give thought to anyone's suggestion even if only to try to find out why it won't work."

Our new Secretary of Education is not an educator. Has never taught.

Neither is the new head of "Race to the Top."

Yet they are in charge of education across the nation.

[hughee99]

61. I'm not sure that either of these were good choices

(not knowing enough about their ideas or philosophies) but all I can do now is hope for the best.

[CRK7376]

44. That's only been directed at

me a few times so far. I tend to be the quiet, reserved one. But the answer is from 1977 to present. Active Duty, National Guard and Army Reserve time. Nearly complete with my 20 years of Active Duty, plus 13 years serving as a high school history teacher which I plan to retire back to.....Germany, Afghanistan, Korea, Japan and a few other places.....

[santamargarita]

45. The ones I know are chickenshit draft dodgers, like Chickenshit Bush

:puke:

[bridgit]

47. You left out Cheney; the most deferred draft dodger on the field and the famously ass-boiled

Limbaugh

[Skittles]

52. oh yes and I LOVE IT!!!

yes I did INDEED serve :rofl:

[ChoppinBroccoli]

53. Here's How You Respond To That Question

"I don't have to hit myself with a hammer to know that it hurts. But apparently you do. Here's a hammer."

Just like Bob Dylan said, "You don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."

I always like to ask Pro-War folks why, if they support the war so much, THEY'RE not over there fighting it. The military is painfully short of help and would gladly take ANY volunteers. In fact, back during the 2004 election, I think it was Michael Moore who started a program to provide Military Volunteer forms to all Pro-War people (putting them on the windshields of cars with Pro-War bumper stickers, etc.), and they were all marked so the military would know exactly which people were volunteering as a result of this effort. Guess how many people actually filled out and returned those forms. I actually thought it would make a far more powerful message to go to a huge parking lot, put the volunteer forms on ever car with a Pro-War sticker on it, and then wait until the end of the day and take pictures of how many of the forms got unceremoniously tossed to the ground (aka littering) or into a garbage bin. Because my guess is that about 99% of them would fall into that "discarded" category. So it would show that the Pro-War are not only hypocrites, but they're inconsiderate litterbugs.

[Colonel Bat Guano]

56. Famous chickenhawks vs famous dem vets?

A week or two back, I saw a news clip of the Daily Kos guy, who is a vet, mixing it up with a RW clown who was not a vet but was speaking for them to advance his own agenda. Same week, there was a clip of another chickenhawk asking a female panelist, "when have you served and what do you know about Iraq", and it turned out she had not only served, she was a POW in Iraq.

Is there a website that's compiled some information on this? Specifically, I mean the number of really loud RW pundits or reps or senators who have never served in the military (extra points for dicey deferments), compared with Dem pundits, reps or senators who have served but don't necessarily talk about it every five minutes?

[niyad]

57. I LOVED that segment with markos--and the idiot who was, alas, a rep from this state-- it is

beyond embarassing that the so-called "liberal" media keeps dragging tancredo out as though he actually had anything intelligent to say.

agree that somebody should start keeping a list of these incidents.

[niyad]

55. my response: the first 50 years of my life--first as a military brat, then a military spouse with a

ptsd/agent orange spouse (and survived two attempts to kill me) and then as a counselor for ptsd vets, and as a peace activist, so FUCK OFF"

[2tr4nqued]

58. I don't need to be a soldier to know that murder is wrong.

In fact, being a soldier makes it less likely someone can make a judgment like that.

[Marr]

59. That question is only relevant if you're arguing *for* war.

It exposes a chickenhawk; someone who casually urges war when they're unwilling to join themselves.

Asking that of a war critic doesn't make any sense.

[era veteran]

64. Born in the Army. Panama C. Z.

Got low lottery #, joined, did 4 years beating end connectors on tanks, hate unnecessary war, but really hate chickenhawks. Permanently disabled; now what did you say? Sorry, too many TBI's must take meds. 3rd/3rd/33rd Armor on The Rock

[rasputin1952]

65. Both my older brother and I served in the Army...

my younger brother never served. I have a daughter that served in the Navy.

Interestingly, my younger brother is a RWnut, and myself and my older brother, as well as sailor daughter, are all Liberal/Progressives...:D

For the record, I am proud that I served, and have a place in my heart for all who have placed their lives on the line for this nation. I believe that the conflicts we are involved in now are horrid uses of our military, and bush/cheney should be drafted and sent to the Middle East, (I don't want to think about "Friendly Fire").

It's the same thing w/HCR...most of those squealing are on Medicare! They don't even realize how incredibly stupid they look, taking advantage of a "Socialized Health Care Plan", while they watch children die from lack of care...x(

To those who serve(d)...:patriot:

[olegramps]

67. All of my brothers served in the military.

My older brother retired from the military. I served in Korea, both of my two younger brothers served in Viet Nam. I am a member of the VFW primarily because of the assistance that they provide for vets and their families. No one who made the military their career retired wealthy and far too many of these families have limited resources.

I certainly wouldn't regard us as war mongers having seen the consequences of war. It isn't nice, but unfortunately justified as a last resort in some cases. I certainly didn't support the Iraq war since I had been made aware of the clear intentions of the PNAC neo-cons that dominated the Bush administration by a couple of my friends. What disturbs me the most is that the Fourth Estate completely failed the American citizens by not informing them of the clear intentions of these radicals that had hijacked the Republican Party. Today's journalists, especially those on national TV are absolutely worthless and nothing more than boot licking script readers.

[rasputin1952]

68. I am a 57 yo student/pt worker these days...

I have one degree and am working on another now.

When this fiasco broke out in the ME, some of the students in a few classes thought this was just "great". I offered to take them down to the recruiter of their choice if they thought was was so "great". No one took me up on the offer.

I am in a seriously Red state, Nebraska, amazing that those who would be in favor of war, essentially refuse to serve in one of the services...:(

Chickenhawks...they make me sick.

[TransitJohn]

70. The military festish sucks.

Not denigrating anyone's service, just the jingoistic military fetish in general. I hate it.