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NYT: How World War II Wasn't Won - Ike vs. Gen. Devers

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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 08:58 AM
Original message
NYT: How World War II Wasn't Won - Ike vs. Gen. Devers
History so often comes down to personality...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/23/opinion/23colley.html?em

From Holland to France, the front was static — yet thousands of Allied soldiers continued to die in futile battles to reach the Rhine River.

One Allied army, however, was still on the move. The Sixth Army Group reached the Rhine at Strasbourg, France, on Nov. 24, and its commander, Lt. Gen. Jacob L. Devers, looked across its muddy waters into Germany. His force, made up of the United States Seventh and French First Armies, 350,000 men, had landed Aug. 15 near Marseille — an invasion largely overlooked by history but regarded at the time as “the second D-Day” — and advanced through southern France to Strasbourg. No other Allied army had yet reached the Rhine, not even hard-charging George Patton’s.

The Sixth Army Group had assembled bridging equipment, amphibious trucks and assault boats. .... the German First Army, which was blocking Patton’s Third Army in Lorraine.

Devers never crossed. Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, the supreme commander, visited Devers’s headquarters that day and ordered him instead to stay on the Rhine’s west bank and attack enemy positions in northern Alsace. Devers was stunned. “We had a clean breakthrough,” he wrote in his diary. “By driving hard, I feel that we could have accomplished our mission.” Instead the war of attrition continued, giving the Germans a chance to counterattack three weeks later in what became known as the Battle of the Bulge, which cost 80,000 American dead and wounded.

Why did Eisenhower refuse to allow Devers to cross? Eisenhower disliked Devers — a prim teetotaler who rubbed many gruff Army commanders the wrong way — and refused to include him among the generals fighting in northern France. Devers was appointed to lead the southern invasion by the Army chief of staff, George Marshall. Eisenhower would likely have fired Devers once the Sixth Army Group fell under his command in September 1944, but Devers had powerful patrons in Marshall and President Franklin D. Roosevelt.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. a sad judgment of history. while we can appreciate Eisenhower for his
wise decisions, if this is as the author says it is, then s petty personality clash caused much death and suffering. I never knew about this story until now...
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I didn't either. My mother knew Ike pretty well immediately after the war and his big strength
was his ability to 'play well with others' - that's why he was sent to mediate among Monty, Patton and Mark Clark, among others.

So, this really took me by surprise. I need to find out more about this. A friend of mine was yanked out of the Battle of the Bulge at the last minute...to compete on behalf of his unit in an inter-service ski competition in the Italian Alps. "Someone had to do it." His brother got through Anzio without a scratch. They were lucky.
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KatyMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I did not know this story either,
and I've read a lot on WWII/European Theater, so I'm kind of embarrassed :)
But I do find the political machinations among Allied leadership at the end of the war to be almost disgusting, even if, at the time, it was the prudent approach. But, on the other hand, delaying victory in the West allowed more "regular" Germans and eastern Europeans escape from the Red Army in the east (at least, I get that impression, I'm no scholar), so that in itself was a good thing.
I guess in the end nothing about war is good, is it?
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. I've also been blind-sided by this one. I think it increased the oppotunity for violence by the Red
Edited on Tue Nov-24-09 12:30 PM by Captain Hilts
Army over the German population, from what I've read.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. It's been rumored that after Cairo, the Soviets were allowed to take
Berlin due to what the German's did to the Russian population when they invaded. Stalin made no bones about wanting reparations.

The US Army purposely held back.

The last thing the Allies wanted was to get into a scrap with the Russians.

Just the sheer numbers of Soviet troops in the eastern theater dwarfed ours by many fold.

Plus, by late '44, Soviet industry had finally caught it's breath and were in mass production mode.

Where as the US war industry was already winding down.

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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I've read that that was decided very early in the war. Before FDR got in on the Big Three.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. I always wondered had FDR lived, what the post war period of time
as the cold war started to "heat" up, would have been like?

He had a fairly good relation with Stalin, although Stalin didn't care for FDR's quip about him being called "Uncle Joe" (likely didn't understand it's endearing connotation), and how he would have dealt with Churchill being dumped as Prime Minister?

Needless to say, if he had survived the war and survived to serve out the remainder of his term, he probably wouldn't have run again, that would have certainly killed him.

I enjoy pondering the "what-ifs".

I just wonder how different the world would be now? But alas, we will never know or every consciously have reason to know. :)
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. FDR was getting really pissed off at Stalin, so it's a tough call. nt
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
4. K&R #2 n/t
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
5. Correct me if I'm wrong but
Ike stopped the advance because the allies had advanced beyond their ability to supply their armies. At least that's been the official story for 65 years.
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invictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. +1
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. But his supply line was Marseilles, which was open
Edited on Tue Nov-24-09 12:10 PM by happyslug
The rest of the US and British Army was supported from Cain and the Normandy Beaches. In simple terms, he had a clear supply line, a line that could NOT be diverted to the other armies in France (i.e. up the Rhone River). The rest of the Allied Armies in France had to go through Paris or around Paris (Most Rail lines went through Paris from the various Borders and Coasts, including Normandy). The big exception was the Rhone River from Marseilles. That River and the Rail Lines that went around it avoided Paris and it was that supply line this General's army was using, a Supply line that could have supplied the rest of the armies BUT ONLY IF RE-DIRECTED THROUGH PARIS or the Rhine (But the Germans still held the Rhine as of the date of this incident).
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. No, that's not what I've read at all. nt
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Actually supply was the problem, Patton's supply was to come from Brest
And Brest did not fall till September 1944, and was not in condition to handle any supplies will while into 1945 (The German destroyed that point so it could NOT be used by the Allies). When Brest did not fall (Patton went East and did his famous encirclement, which left the German enough time to withdraw into Brest and hold out for another month) Patton's supply train had to come from the beaches and Cherbourg that was to solely supply the British army in the pre-invasion planing.

The failure to take Brest was the major cause of the lack of Supplies for the Allied Armies in France in 1944. Its fall in September 1944 came at the cost of the complete destruction of the port AND the rail lines needed to get supplies from the port to the troops in the field (Even some of the supplies for the British Army was to come from Brest, NOT Cherbourg and Cain and the Normandy Beaches, all three were smaller then Brest not only in terms of infrastructure BUT the size of the Harbor itself).

For more on the Battle for Brest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Brest
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Yes, I've read about that particular case. nt
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
7. Want to know what beat the Germans in WWII?
The Russians.

Don't ever let anyone else try to tell you different.

If Germany didn't invade Russia, the allied forces would have never made a successful landing on Normandy.

The eastern front stretched roughly 1600 miles. That's like having a front that stretches from Seattle to San Diego.

The Germans had 150 divisions in the eastern
theater in June of '44. In the western theater?69.

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=7288

"On D-Day itself, the Allies landed 11 divisions on the French coast, but failed in reaching their planned objective of linking the beachheads or driving inland to a distance of nine miles. Within five days, on June 11, Allied troops overcame German resistance to unite the invasion beaches into one large beachhead."

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005158

Due to allied air superiority, the landing made that happen.

Now, imagine if there was no invasion of Russia by Germany, we would have been easily been pushed back to the sea.

But then again, if Germany hadn't invaded Russia, what would have been the alternative plan for an invasion? That is the question.

Since I'm an alternative history geek, this is a good one to ponder.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. 75% of all German soldiers killed, were killed by the Red Army. nt
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Amazing isn't it?
here is a stat I recently came across via a podcast I listen to:

For every one American killed in WWII, there were 20 German soldiers.

For every one American killed in WWII, there were...87 Soviet soldiers.

holy crap!

The amounts of killed, wounded, MIA and just completely vanished from the earth on the eastern front is absolutely staggering.

If you never heard of it, listen to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast. He just completed a 4 part series on the eastern front.

The average American has absolutely no concept of what the eastern front was all about.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I'm reading The Greatest Battle right now. It mentions that it was Soviet historians that squelched
into getting out about the battle for Moscow because it made Stalin look stupid, which, he was.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. I just finished a great audio book. Moscow 1941.
Truly epic in its expanse. A remarkable telling of the events leading up to, during and after the battle for Moscow.

It was written fairly recently and used recently release documents from the former Soviet archives to give a glimpse as to what was really going on inside the Kremlin.

Stalin, I don't thing so much was stupid (not the brightest bulb) as he was just plain evil. Sociopath comes to mind. He really enjoyed playing people against each other and really loved to keep everyone guessing as to whether or not he was going to allow them to live.

A grand manipulator.

Give it a listen or a read, it's a very engaging book.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. I flipped a coin between the two books. nt
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
32. I remember reading a list of German divisions
on the Russian front and their fates.
Completely destroyed was what happened to most of them.
Many others had things like 3 survivors,5 survivors,etc...
Mind boggleing does not begin to describe what happened to the Wehrmacht.
If hitler had not invaded Russia we would have had to nuke Germany off of the face of the earth to win.That is if they had not nuked us first.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Friend of mine's dad was THE survivor in a German unit. He had been a courier...
He actually got mustered out of the Army in '44 then moved to Dresden...

Oddly enough, Sept. 11th freaked him out.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. The alternative is that some sort of Negotiated Treaty would have been made
Germany withdrawing From France in exchange for Britain agreeing to German Control of the Rest of Europe (Including Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Hungary, the Balkans, Poland etc). There is speculation that such a treaty was about to be agreed to in late 1940 early 1941, but FDR told Churchill that if Churchill agreed to such a treaty the US would withdraw all aid to Britain (In effect FDR Vetoed the purposed treaty).

Churchill could have agreed to such a treaty, leaving Hitler free to invade Russia, probably in 1942 (When the USSR was expecting the invasion). A peace treaty would have solved Hitler's dilemma when it came to Russia, where was he going to get the oil for the invasion? Prior to the German Invasion of Russia, Germany's main source of oil was Russia. Once the Invasion took place they had six months before they ran out of fuel. If a peace treaty had been entered in 1941 with Britain, Hitler could have purchased his fuel from the US or Britain (Britain controlled Iraqi and Iranian oil at that time period) thus avoiding the problems the German forces faced from December 1941 onward, working with severe oil shortage (German Infantry unit, to free up fuel for the Air Force and Panzer Forces, where allocated only 10% of their pre-war oil usage after December 1941, you try to operate a modern army unit on just 10% of its peace time oil usage).

In simple terms, oil was the key to winning WWII, those that had access to oil, the US, Britain and the USSR won, those that did not, Germany, Italy and Japan lost. Germany was winning the war as long as it had access to Soviet Oil. Japan was winning its war in China as long as it had access to Dutch East Indies (Now Indonesian) oil. This was also one of the reason the US did NOT want a war with the USSR in 1945, the Russian had access to oil and the US supply lines were at a breaking point. The US could NOT supply any force that penetrated any further into Germany then it did (even Berlin was a stretch). To engage the Soviet Red Army with its access to oil would have lead to massive lost of life for little or no gain. The US could stop any Soviet invasion of Western Europe, especially as it fell back on its supply lines, while the Soviets could do the same regarding any Allied invasion of Eastern Europe. Thus no war occurred for both sides saw they were at the end of their supply lines.

As to the Invasion of Russia by Hitler, had he waited he may have secured a new supply line of oil by 1942 (When Stalin thought Hitler would invade) but by then the Red Army would have been prepared for such an invasion. Unlike what happened in WWII, a 1942 invasion would NOT have gone as far as it did, but then the Germans would have been able to do MORE in the second year of the War (The German Army would have had access to oil to do what they wanted to do) then the German Army was able to do in 1942 (Through the whole attack on Southern Russia to try to grab the Caspian Oil fields would NOT have been done, German would NOT have needed that oil to go after it, instead another push to take Moscow probably would have been ordered).

The big question would have been how would FDR and Churchill view an attack on Russia IF BRITAIN HAD SIGNED A PEACE TREATY WITH HITLER IN 1941? Could Churchill convince the British people to support going BACK to war? Could FDR convince Congress to support Communist Russia while Britain was at peace with Germany? This latter question is why I think FDR vetoed the speculated treaty I mentioned above. Everyone knew Hitler was going to attack Russia, the only question was when. As long as Britain was at war with Germany, FDR would go to Congress and ask support for BRITAIN, even of most of the actual support would have gone to Russia. FDR basically determined that if Britain signed a Peace Treaty with Germany, FDR did NOT think he could get support for Russia through Congress whenever Hitler invaded Russia. FDR also did not think Churchill could convince the British people to go back to war with Germany, once Germany invaded Russia. Thus FDR told Churchill that any peace treaty with Germany would come at the cost of any and all support from the US (And the US would demand back all it had given Britain since 1940). That was unacceptable to Churchill so the peace talks died out (And the end of the peace talk probably was what lead Rudolf Hess to fly to Britain in 1941, to try to get the peace talks re-started so Germany would be at peace with Britain BEFORE Hitler's invasion of Russia in June 1941).

Rudolf Hess imprisonment was always questionable. Technically the USSR refused to leave him out, but there is talk that Khrushchev or his successor Brezhnev almost ended the Russian Veto of leaving him out of jail (Hess had been in Jail in Britain when the Holocaust technically was started in December 1941 so his connection with the killing of the Jews in the Camps was the weakest of all of the German Leadership of WWII) but Britain threatened to Veto and the Russian resumed their veto (and according to this story, Britain made a deal with the Russians, the Russians would keep up their Veto so Britain can still vote to release Hess and look like Britain supports being "Humane" for a person of questionable sanity in the West, i.e. Hess even in the Nuremberg trials of 1941 was of questionable sanity, and Britain gave the Russians something, what is unknown but soon after the Russian mentioned they would stop their veto the Russians then resumed it no one really knows why but the speculation is high on why).

Did Hess think Britain could be talked into a peace treaty BEFORE Hitler invaded Russia? Did people in the British Government NOT want this out? (Remember it would have been embarrassing for the British Government even as late as the 1980s to have it shown that they were about to sign a peace treaty with Hitler in 1941).

Now that I have gone way off topic it is time for me to end this discussion. As my father use to say, "The Dog would have caught the Rabbit if he didn't stop to take a shit". What was the highest priority for the Dog? to relieve himself NOT to catch the Rabbit. To speculate that the Dog would have caught the Rabbit is to ignore all the other things going on at the same time. The same with the above, most speculation ignores the factors that forced the people of that time period to do what they did. In the case of Hitler and Russia, he wanted to invade no matter the costs, thus he attacked in 1941 and tied himself up in Russia. FDR wanted to make sure Germany did NOT dominate Europe, even if that meant supporting the Communists. Churchill wanted to preserve the British Empire, even at the cost of British independence from the US. Thus the problem with historical speculation, we have to examine all of the factors NOT just the factors that favors the alternative historical point of view.

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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. Wow! that was a very insightful stuff!
Edited on Tue Nov-24-09 02:55 PM by Javaman
You pose a lot of fascinating questions as well as give some (obviously well researched) great information concerning the various negotiations going on.

I had never known about the possible brokered peace between Britain and Germany. Was that as a result of Dunkirk?

Also, as I stated up thread, being a alt history geek, it's a very scary concept to think that if Britain had signed a peace treaty with Germany, and Germany now armed with those additional divisions it no longer needed on the western front, what the outcome of that battle would have been?

Also, in regards to Germany's need for oil, did the Romanian oil fields take up much of the needed slack in supply prior to their race for the Caspian oil fields?
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. The issue of negotiated peace in 1940-1941 is prue speculation
But given the Military situation very possible. Britain was looking at a war where it had no ally NOT occupied by the Germans, and Hitler was looking at attacking Britain with Britain having complete Naval Superiority and just marginal control of the Air (i.e. Germany control the Air Over France, Britain controlled the Air over Britain but Germany could put enough fighter over Southern Britain to permit an invasion, please note this is the BEST German view of the Situation, a British view would give Britain complete Control over the air to prevent an Invasion).

Thus you had two countries at war with each other, but each having only marginal ability to challenge the area controlled by the other. Germany could not really invade Britain, but neither could Britain invade Europe and drive Germany out. Stalemate. In such situations it is common to have some sort of negotiated peace. And you had over a year from the Fall of France in May 1940 to the Invasion of Russia in June 1941 (Ignoring the Wars in Greece and North Africa, both were side areas for both countries). As one historian pointed out, there were negotiations during WWI when France was unoccupied by the Germans and Britain had troops IN FRANCE, why no negotiations when Britain had NO allies NOT under German Occupation AND no troops on the Continent itself (The situation between May 1940 and June 1941)?

To this day Britain say no negotiations took place, but why did the Bismark sail when it did (May 1941, BEFORE the invasion of Russia and a direct attack on the Convoys to Britain)? The best answer was to show Britain that Germany could attack the convoys IF IT REALLY WANTED TO (The sinking of the Bismark may be viewed as a response to the attack but merely sending out the Bismark sent a message that Germany could attack Britain even if an invasion was impossible). The attack by the Bismark may just be the German Navy trying to show it had some value in the ongoing war (Especially the effort of the rest of the Navy against the growing dependency of Germany on the U-Boats as opposed the Surface Ships) but it could have been a message that Germany could challenge Britain on the High Seas. Germany was NOT dependent on the Convoys but Britain was and could Britain have a Battleship on every Convoy?

Why did Hess fly to Scotland? Why did he want to talk to people connected to the British Government? Again, it may be that Hess was insane, but it could have been that Hess wanted peace with Britain before any attack on Russia (Just because Hess was Insane did not mean he did NOT have an agenda when he flew to Britain, against Hitler's order).

There may be nothing to the speculations, the negotiations may have been preliminary in nature with neither side actually looking for a peace treaty. The negotiations may never have occurred, but something cause Hess to fly to Britain. Hess's flight may have been pure fantasy on his part, but he did flew and turned himself in apparently to negotiate a peace (NOT dictate but Negotiate a peace). Why the flight? Was the possibility of a negotiated peace just in Hess's mind (The official position) or was something else up? i.e. an attempt to re-start what Hess viewed as a good settlement of the war up to that date (Remember we are talking only of a European War, Japan, the US and the USSR were still all at peace).

There are to many unanswered questions (and these questions may never be answered) about Hess's flight to Britain in the days before the scheduled invasion of Russia (Which was delayed do to the situation in the Balkans following the overthrow of the Yugoslavia Government AND the Italian failed invasion of Greece).

Just a warning that this and my previous thread just brought forward speculation of myself and others. There are little facts to support or disprove the above, but it is a thought provoking concept.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. As to the Romania Oil fields, there helped but could NOT replace the Russian oil
One veteran from WWII told me that the reason NO tanker out of Galveston TX was sunk was that the German U-Boats were told that oil was headed to Spain to be shipped overland to Occupied France for use in the U-Boats. I have NEVER been able to confirm that story, but a good bit of US Oil ended up in Spain and thus to the German War Machine.

Romania could NOT replace the oil Germany had imported from Russia, neither could the German attempts at Coal Gasification (i.e. Oil from Coal). Neither the oil from Romania nor the Coal to Oil program could supply the Germans with anywhere near the oil the German Army used before WWII (Also gives you an idea on how dependent the rest of the World was on US Oil prior to the 1960s when US oil production peaked around 1969 and has been dropping ever since, through the US is still the #3 producer of oil in the world, behind Russia and Saudi Arabia, the "big three" for the last 50 years).
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. +1
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whistler162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
8. Well I guess it was Devers turn to be hailed as the ill
Edited on Tue Nov-24-09 11:49 AM by whistler162
stared would have been early war ender.

Monty's had his turn
Patton's had his turn
Now Devers.

Problem is like Monty and Patton Devers had a supply line to contend with all the way from the French coast. Until Antwerp and the surrounding area was cleared and ready to handle the massive cargo/fuel loads it wasn't going to happen.

"An attack by commandos ensured the end of German control of Walcheren. However, the Scheldt had to be swept for mines and it was not until November 26th that the first light boats could freely sail up the Scheldt to Antwerp. On November 28th, the first large boats used the port. By December 14th, 19,000 tons of supplies were being unloaded at Antwerp each day."

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/antwerp_and_world_war_two.htm

If Devers had been given his head he probably would have had it battered or chopped off on or after the beginning of the December 16th attack by the Germans. A reverse Falaise or Saar pocket.

Seems every WWII historian has a favorite general who if not for X could have fought his way to Berlin and beyond. If only they had been given precedence over other generals and all the supplies.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
9. historians have a tendency to make things more personal than they really were
i find it extremely implausible that ike would have altered a war strategy solely out of petty personal issues. ike had a huge stake in winning the war, and wouldn't have done something that hurt his chances of victory just to tweak devers.

in fact, if his orders to devers were clearly a mistake, that would hurt his own reputation and hand political ammunition to devers.


now, perhaps it's reasonable to think he might have wanted devers, as opposed to someone else, in a more defensive position out of the limelight. but only if he felt he needed SOMEONE to stay in alsace.







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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. My instincts lean that way too, yet I find myself surprisingly ignorant of this angle to the topic.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Also, the issue of British-American relations...
Even the British accept that Eisenhower had a problem, he had to provide as much support to the BRITISH Army as he did the US Army, even through the US Army was on the move given Patton's drive. Even some of the British Generals say that Eisenhower should have provided more supplies to Patton then the British Forces, for he was driving forward while they were not (i.e. support the area of greatest success NOT everyone equally).

Eisenhower refused to take the heat of "Favoring" Americans and maintained this equal treatment of supplies policy. It was his greatest mistake, but one that can be understood as one of the prices of being the Commander in Chief of three nations armies (the US, British army in France and the re-emerging French Army). I think he should have took the heat and backed Patton, but he avoided the heat and kept the supply lines evenly supplied. I can disagree with his decision, but I can also see the logic behind it.
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Doc_Technical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #22
37. Speaking of Gen. Patton,
why was he sent to Austria to attack
a mythical Nazi redoubt?
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Hitler had made a propaganda point of it, as had US forces
Between the two propaganda messages, the US High Command became convinced that Hitler HAD planned such a base and sent in the US Army to crush it early. Nothing more then a propaganda message that someone actually believed. By Spring of 1945 Hitler was to sick (From his wounds from the July 20th Plot, his Syphilis and other impairments) that he could NOT lead such a guerrilla war, and if he could not control it he gave it no support. Thus while Germany had the capability to have had such a Guerrilla base in Southern Germany, Hitler was NOT about to share political power with anyone who could lead such a Guerrilla Army, thus the Redoubt was NEVER funded, but Goebbels kept it alive as a way Germans could still hope that the War could be "won" as Germany Collapsed in the Spring of 1945.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. Perhaps the tendency to personalize in this case is related to Ike's farewell speech as President?
I imagine that speech warning against allowing the accrual of too much power by the military industrial complex "whether sought or unsought" must be a thorn sticking in inconvenient places.

Before the Internet, his warning could be sluffed off and largely forgotten; stored in the dust bin of history, but now the video can be replayed as reminder to posterity of a path not taken for any one to view, naturally there will be a reaction of those seeking to diminish Eisenhower's stature in any and all regard.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
31. I think Eisenhower learned a valuable lesson in Tunisia...
I think Eisenhower learned a valuable lesson in Tunisia when he allowed Fredendall to stay in command of II Corp for over a week after his disastrous showing during the German counter attacks.

Eisenhower later went on to say in his auto-biography that the *only* reason he had kept Fredendall commanding II Corp was out of a sense of friendship-- as reason Ike himself admitted was counter-productive and one of his worst, self-perceived bungles in the war. That he had learned (in a very tough manner that cost lives) that personalities and personality conflicts had zero place in and around the battlefield.

This anecdote coupled with the supply situation in France at the time (not enough supply en toto for any more than one of the four army groups to go on the offensive) compels me to look at the author's own angles a little closer (and for me to crack open some long-dusty sources) to see if his premise does indeed hold water.
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
33. Interesting perspective, but...
...frankly I'd like to read some comments on this by other experts on the subject before taking it at face value.

'Cause Times Op-Eds are always iron-clad, undisputable fact, right?
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. I share your skepticism, but the article revealed a shortcoming in my knowledge of the subject I
did not know was there.

Let's keep an eye on reviews for this book.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 02:30 AM
Response to Original message
38. Only one thing to say

If everyone else is bogged down, would you let 1 army move with no support on it's flanks?

Or would you have them support others, attacking the enemy on it's flanks?
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