Are Democrats becoming nothing more than Republicans, minus the bat-shit-crazy?

[MNDemNY]

I mean, supporting 2 wars, supporting warrant-less wiretaps, supporting tele-com immunity, supporting a HCR bill that does little more than "insure" insurance industry profits, and turn back the clock on womens' rights 50 years. Does anybody even bother to pay attention to the party platform??

[Captain Hilts]

1. Yes. If the President supports it, it's okay. No one believed the quotation

from the NYer when he said he wasn't sure how he would have voted on the Iraq War Resolution. Instead, he was painted as a peacenik and the other candidates war mongers. Life - and war - just isn't that simple. Not then. Not now.

[MNDemNY]

2. So, your saying it's WITH the bat-shit-crazy, then?

And Obama was always against the war!!! ;)

[Captain Hilts]

3. In some ways, yes. It's not about policy, it's about personality. nt

[timeforpeace]

51. Ideology is trumping principles, and the ideology is shifting daily.

[SIMPLYB1980]

4. LOL!

Then move on to some other party.

[MNDemNY]

5. No, I'll work to take this one back from the corporatists. Thanks, anyway.

[SIMPLYB1980]

6. Good luck with that.

:popcorn:

[MNDemNY]

7. Are you content with the direction of the Democratic Party?

Is it's move to the right a good thing in your eyes?

[SIMPLYB1980]

30. Isn't it obvious that I am just fine with the direction the

Democratic party is going? :shrug:

[MNDemNY]

49. So you are DLC??

[SIMPLYB1980]

52. Yep. Donated to them the other day.

Didn't you see the thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6990981
:rofl:

Are you really a Ron Paul supporter?

[MannyGoldstein]

9. The Democratic Party Belongs To Democrats

We need to take it back.

[SIMPLYB1980]

15. I'm a Democrat and I am very happy with

what our party has accomplished so far after the election of Obama. There is nothing to take over unless you are a green or libertarian or belong to some other political party that doesn't like the way Democrats do it.

[MNDemNY]

20. So, you support both wars, warrant-less wiretaps, setting back womens rights, and the lousy HCR bill

? Really? So you were pretty comfy with the Bush years, as well? Interesting.

[SIMPLYB1980]

29. No I support the war in Afghanistan, always have.

The rest of that is just whining from the perpetually pissed off.

[MNDemNY]

43. Warrentless wiretaps are a non-issue?

[SIMPLYB1980]

46. As long as they go by FISA court rules no it's not an issue.

[MNDemNY]

48. But the section in the PA that allows taps beyond FISA was extended.

It would have sun-set, but the administration, this one, took affirmative action to extend it. they say they do not use it, but why extend it? Is your trust that big? Mine is not.

[SIMPLYB1980]

53. Not a big deal.

[MNDemNY]

54. Why? Do you not value the Constitution?

Oh, that's right, you are the admitted tool......carry on.

[MannyGoldstein]

23. So You're Cool With $13 Trillion In Loan Guarantees For Bankers,

and hundreds in billions of other gifts to that crowd? Gifts all made with your money? While you and I get a finger-wagging lecture on personal responsibility?

You're cool with warrantless wiretapping and gay marriage=incest? War criminals getting a pass? A health insurance "public option" that will cover about 1% of the US, in exchange for a big wet kiss for the health insurers?

[SIMPLYB1980]

25. To stop a great depression...

Of coarse only a fool wouldn't be. "Thank "God" it passed."

[MannyGoldstein]

31. It Was The Absolute Worst Way To Do It, And Probably Temporary

It unecessarily gave hundreds of billions of dollars to bankers to put in their pockets - money that could be better spent saving the staggering middle class.

Total number of new regulations on the bankers since the bailout? Zero. Nil. Goose eggs. So, they're doing the same thing as before. Think the results will be different this time?

The bankers are saved - the economy is not.

[SIMPLYB1980]

33. Yawn.

:nopity:

[Are_grits_groceries]

8. No.

They make up history, lie about everything, and say nothing but no. This is why I consider them to be hanging onto the edge of the RW earth.

The Dems do some of this, but not on the epic scale the GOP does. We have our own problems as you have pointed out. We may be BSC, but in an entirely different manner.

[MNDemNY]

11. Do you agree that "we" as a party seem to have moved to the right?

And is this move in your best interest? Do you think that the USA is a "right-of-center" country?

[Are_grits_groceries]

27. Heh!

As far as I am concerned, it is impossible to tell where anybody is moving especially the party as a whole. There are so many groups with so many agendas that I have no idea where the actual center of the party would fall. Some groups get more press and may seem to have more influence, but what does that say about the beliefs of the entire party?

The country is the same way to me. There are too many issues and too much noise in the way for me to see what I think is anywhere near a true statement about the country's ideology.

Groups are all over the map because they may seem to reflect one ideology on one issue and a different one on another.
Sorting all that out into an overall center is beyond me. One day the center seems to be here, and then it seems to be there.

Don't confuse the center with where you are looking because you are naturally going to notice the loudest group. They seem to be bigger than they really are in a lot of cases.

[Craftsman]

10. Don't sell the democrats short, they have plenty of bat-shit-crazy too!!

[MNDemNY]

13. This is true.

But do you agree that the party is making a big swing to the right? Is that ok with you?

[WVRICK13]

55. Hell No It Isn't OK

I want my country back. It has been hijacked and I can no longer identify the hijackers. They are all starting to look the same.

[cali]

12. first of all, the majority of dems in the house voted against the IRW

so the premise of your op is ignorant or dishonest. None of my reps in D.C. voted for the items you mention and the vote on healthcare has yet to be held.

Then look at my senior senator for example, for years he's been introducing legislation to repeal the anti-trust exemption granted to insurance companies. Can you even imagine a puke doing that?

[MNDemNY]

18. Is the President not a Democrat?

The leadership of both the House and the Senate seem to have up-held these things. Ignorant, or dishonest? Are you just projecting? Your defense of same is disingenuous, at best.:shrug:

[stray cat]

14. no we still have the bat shit crazy -our extreme left is the mirror image of the extreme right

[vi5]

26. There's a huuuuuge difference...

Our extreme base is marginalized and kept at a distance even by our own party.

Their extreme base is calling the shots within their party and are fondly embraced by all in any position of power.

That's a key difference right there.

[Kokonoe]

28. Not only reversed left and right, but also frontward and backward.

Republicans are backward.

[SIMPLYB1980]

32. That statement is true, but unlike the republicans

our elected officials for the most part ignore them.

[spanone]

16. i think there's a gnats hair difference between the two

[bridgit]

17. Meh, they run the risk of becoming this kid, and this kid is what America is too much about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXnSe7MYPGM

[Stevenmarc]

19. .

[Stinky The Clown]

21. Not all Democrats .... just some "Democrats"

Some in high office, too.

[MNDemNY]

22. Therein lies the problem.

[HamdenRice]

24. Facts cannot penetrate the pre-emptively disappointed. Iraq is ending, warrantless wiretaps banned

I realize this is pointless because facts no longer matter to those pre-emptively disappointed with the Democrats, but what the heck:

The Iraq War is ending as swiftly as possible and irretrievably:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6941125&mesg_id=6942311

"US undertaking largest withdrawal of troops and materiel since Vietnam"

Leaving Iraq Is a Feat That Requires an Army

By MARC SANTORA
Published: October 8, 2009

JOINT BASE BALAD, Iraq — There is no more visible sign that America is putting the Iraq war behind it than the colossal operation to get its stuff out: 20,000 soldiers, nearly a sixth of the force here, assigned to a logistical effort aimed at dismantling some 300 bases and shipping out 1.5 million pieces of equipment, from tanks to coffee makers.

<end quote>

It's still early in the morning, but there are already several erroneous posts about warrantless wire tapping. The Obama administration SHUT DOWN warrantless wiretapping, and somehow Amy Goodman spun that into Obama continuing it, and that is now an article of religious faith -- as explained earlier today:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7078000&mesg_id=7078063

"The Obama administration ended warrantless wiretapping of US citizens. US law has always allowed warrantless wiretaps of foreign calls, and has always allowed wiretapping of US citizens with a warrant, including since the 70s, a warrant from the FISA court.

<snip>

I find it remarkable that a news story early in the Obama administration about ENDING warrantless wiretapping has now been spun into an irrefutable urban myth that warrantless wiretapping of citizens in continuing. What actually happened was that the Holder DOJ discovered that Bush holdovers in the NSA were continuing to wiretap US citizens without warrants and IMMEDIATELY SHUT THEM DOWN. Holder apparently said something like, this was really bad, maybe worse than stuff they did during the Bush administration.

Democracy Now then reported this story falsely as something like "Obama administration continuing warrantless wiretapping worse than Bush." So Holder's swift action and investigation to SHUT DOWN warrantless wiretapping was spun into "Obama continues warrantless wiretapping."

That thought is now lodged irretrievably in the concrete skulls of Obama haters, defeatists, PUMAs, Trots and assorted whiners.

Go back to the original news stories. Obama shut down warrantless wiretapping.

I realize it's pointless to demonstrate this even with extensive links -- I've done it several times -- because basically it is now an article of religious faith among the permanently disappointed."

[Stinky The Clown]

34. Afghanistan is escalating.

There is much talk of Iraq ending, but as the Sagacious Mr. Berra said, it ain't over till its over.

And this, the need to keep pressure on. I know some find that irksome, but some find war irksome ..... yanno?

[HamdenRice]

36. Fine, but they should at least get their facts right

and frankly everyday someone says the Iraq war isn't ending and that warrantless wiretapping is continuing.

[SIMPLYB1980]

35. You are going to use facts on DU?

Might as well bang your head on a wall. :banghead:

[cowcommander]

41. If Obama can shut down warrantless wiretapping...

He can get rid of the Patriot Act. What reason does it still have to exist now?

[HamdenRice]

42. The Patriot Act wasn't just warrantless wiretapping. It was huge and really can't simply be repealed

The PA was not just the awful illegal stuff Bush wanted. It was also a laundry list of stuff that the Justice Department had wanted to do with criminal procedure and terrorism going back to the Clinton administration. That's why it was submitted to quickly -- it had been on the shelf for years. It was many hundreds of pages long and the most offensive stuff was not the majority of what was in it.

Also the way federal law works, you don't just "repeal" an act like that. I realize this is complicated, but here goes: Federal law is in two forms. There are individual "Acts" like the PA -- those are bills passed by Congress. Then those individual acts get incorporated into the second form of federal law -- a complete set of federal laws called the "U.S. Code."

The PA is not just a single stand alone law. Most of it, like most federal Acts read something like this (I'm making this up just as an example):

"Title III, Section 4 of U.S. Code which currently reads, 'no person shall eat twinky while doing guard duty in Guantanamo,' shall be amended to read, 'no person shall without the permission of his commanding officer, eat a twinky while doing guard duty in Guantanamo."

Or worse a lot of it reads:

"In Title III, Section 5, subsection (c), the word 'shall' is replaced with the word, 'may.'"

So the U.S. Code's Justice Department sections were overhauled by the PA. It wasn't just a few rules that stand alone.

So the PA is never going to be "repealed" -- ever. That's simply not the way all the offensive sections of the PA can be removed from the U.S. Code. At this point, it's impossible. What would happen is that the new and improved Justice Department would either submit to Congress piecemeal amendments to the U.S. Code as it finds bad parts of the PA embedded in the Code, or it would submit yet another comprehensive overhaul of the Titles of the U.S. Code that govern the Justice Department, criminal procedure and terrorism.

When that happens, the DOJ may say to the public, that it has "repealed" the PA, or parts of the PA, but what it really will mean is that it has amended the US Code. Simple repeal -- a kind of do-over -- is not remotely feasible.

[MNDemNY]

44. Yes, it can be repealed. And it should.

[treestar]

60. Congress can get rid of the Patriot Act

Then the President would have something to sign.

[Turbineguy]

37. It's bound to happen.

As the repubs narrow their focus to include only the worst nutcases, The Democrats pick up the rest. Just look at how many "former-republicans" there are here on DU.

[corpseratemedia]

38. Why is the "extreme" rofl left as nutty as the right

if they were correct about the lying going on to start the Iraq war for oil contracts? About NAFTA and the destruction of the middle and working class? About global warming and it's effect on the environment? About globalization and the growth of huge slum-cities? About our belligerent history and coups towards the Americas? About the death squads we trained to kill peasants at our Office of The Americas? About our bank rescue not reviving loans to small businesses but instead going to banker's bonuses? About state debt and tax reductions for corporations and the wealthy? About private mercenary armies fighting corporate wars with your tax money? About oil speculation? About oil? Universal healthcare?

Maybe people are confusing cointelpro with being "extreme" left.

The right is deluded and more deluded.

The left is honest vs. more honest. Maybe it's depressing because being truthful isn't fun-time.


And for the record, there is no "extreme" left in the country. We don't have an active or inactive "Shining Path" so we can put this lie to rest.

[SIMPLYB1980]

39. "The left is honest vs. more honest. Maybe it's depressing because being truthful isn't fun-time."

LMAO! :rofl: LIHOP/MIHOP. :hide:

[tjwash]

57. Wow...none of the rest of us even had a clue until you pointed it all out just this very moment.

:eyes:
Jeebus Christmas dude...give us a little fucking credit for not having our heads completely up our asses will you?

As to the far nutty left, and we have plenty of them here, that's the "truthers" the MIHOPers, the anti-vaccinations nuts, the BUY GOLD OMG!!11! The ECONOMY IS CRASHING TOMORROW!!11! crowd, various assorted assholes that post bullshit in the middle of the night from the wsws.bs website, and of course, my personal favorites, the people that post daily "please please please can the whole system crash and devolve in anarchy so I can say that I was right all along" garbage threads.

So yeah...we have our share of the nutcases and weirdo's on this side if the aisle. The right has their share as well. Sometimes I think that they have stretched out the limits of their sides of strangeness so much, that they have met and are holding hands.

[corpseratemedia]

62. dudette, not dude

:hi: really that post was for a certain POSTER ...cough....

not in disagreement with your points though...

:grouphug: <----schizotypal group hug

[madokie]

40. more like company men/women

follow the money

[Individualist]

45. You just described DLC, except they are bat-shit-crazy,

just like their neocon pals. They use the party platform to wipe their asses.

[LWolf]

47. Becoming?

Have already arrived, and I don't know that "bat shit crazy" doesn't apply to some.

[branders seine]

50. yes

war for profit

wall street

health care unreform

continued, and even strengthened, state police powers and violations of civil liberties



I'm done.

[invictus]

56. kick

[tekisui]

58. We have a Conservative Party

and we have the Wingnut-Conservative Party.

Unfortunately, the Liberals are stuck in the Conservadem Party, for now.

[Echo In Light]

59. "America has one political party with two right wings" - Gore Vidal

All by design, of course, despite the ever desperate, death-grip many keep upon safe, substance-less 'criticisms' of either "incompetence" and "cowardice."

[treestar]

61. No

to do that we'd have to start more wars, appoint right wingers to the SCOTUS (Sotomayor would not have done), done nothing about the economy (the free market will take care of it) and made no attempt whatsoever at health care reform (the free market takes care of it).

We'd have had to have leaders go on TV and blame everything on illegal aliens or whine about bowing to the Emperor of Japan. We'd have to continue to tell the rest of the world to go to hell or to bring it on when they disagreed.

[fascisthunter]

63. it means they never disagreed with Bush and Cheney

but instead kept quiet and played dumb. Some didn't remain quiet... Joe Lieberman. When I mean they, I mean the leadership... it's no wonder they kept "impeachment" off the table. Too many dems were involved in Bush/Cheney's crimes.

[Kitsune]

64. Save a few decent, truthworthy individuals, yes. Without question.

The system is thoroughly corrupt and I am beginning to think that nothing can change that.