No one here will be celebrating the genocide of Native Americans on Thursday.

[cali]

I feel pretty damn confident about that. And I'm also quite certain that the vast majority of DUers are cognizant of the history involved.

Every year, some people here take it upon themselves to lecture us about how we shouldn't celebrate Thanksgiving and that in doing so we're somehow complicit in an ugly history. Fine. You want to believe that eating turkey and getting together with friends and families is a heinous crime, believe it, but posting your sanctimonious screeds doesn't win you allies. It doesn't educate. It doesn't make the world a better place. It pisses people off. That, I suspect, is the reason behind said screed.

Getting together with friends and family for a meal is a good thing. Thankfulness isn't a bad thing either. Trying to impose your beliefs and spread hate and misery? That just sucks.

[A HERETIC I AM]

1. This will not end well, methinks. n/t

[roguevalley]

81. I am celebrating my family, my parents both deceased, the fact

that my sibs invited me to TWO dinners that day (cooking for one sucks) and that there is always hope. I don't believe a single person on this board 'celebrates' genocide of anyone. provocative your post is. Truthful, it isn't. not on this board.

[msongs]

2. one can a celebration of thankfullness for its own sake, not related to history.

disassociate the gathering of friends and family from historical references and create something new.

after all that's what many christians do when they sell-abrate merry giftsmas, the holiday dedicated to Santa Claus and worship of material goods, seperating completely the religion from the holiday events :-)

so happy thanksgiving, that is to say, giving thanks, to one and all.

Msongs

[Throd]

3. I will be celebrating the genocide of the Oakland Raiders and about 15 beers.

[Yavapai]

30. Hey, they beat Cincinnati, but here is a email passing around among Raider's fans.

HEADLINE: "Oakland Police are "cracking" down on speeders. For the first offense, they give you two Raiders tickets.

(If you get stopped a second time, they give you four Raider Tickets.)"


Q. What do you call 47 millionaires sitting around a TV watching the Super Bowl?
A. The Oakland Raiders.


Q. What do the Raiders and Billy Graham have in common?
A. They both can make 70,000 people stand up and yell "Jesus Christ".


Q. How do you keep the Raiders out of your yard?
A. Put up a goal post.

Q. Where do you go in Oakland in case of a tornado?
A. To the Coliseum -- they never have a touchdown there!


Q. What do you call a Raider with a Super Bowl ring?
A. Senior Citizen


Q. What's the difference between the Raiders and a dollar bill?
A. You can still get four quarters out of a dollar bill.


Q. How many Raiders does it take to win a Super Bowl?
A. We may never find out in the 21st century.

Q. What do the Raiders and opossums have in common?
A. Both play dead at home and get killed on the road.

[SeekerBlue]

89. Thumbs up.

[Flaneur]

4. Preemptive sanctimony. Nice.

[cali]

8. not at all pre-emptive.

and not sanctimonious either, but aside from such minor quibbles, your criticism is spot on.

[Warren DeMontague]

51. Bull. The "Holocaust on your plate" "Thanksgiving is a patriarchal, soul-sucking, imperialist

blood celebration of karmic doom"

...gibberish has ALREADY started.

If you're going to spend this Thursday alone in your dorm room with a furrowed, angry brow, reading Howard Zinn over a plate of vegan sausage links (the morningstar ones are really good, btw) good -really, good- for you.

But like I said in another thread, the Holiday season has just started, and it's long.

The self-righteous joykill brigade may want to pace themselves.

[roguevalley]

82. bravo, warren demontague. even my Native American relatives

have Thanksgiving.

[proteus_lives]

5. 100% Agreed! All the guilt-mongers can shove it up their asses sideways!

I've got the day off from work. I'm spending it with good food and good friends and nothing they say will make it a negative experience.

Everyone should calm down, eat turkey and take a nap! ;-)

[UndertheOcean]

33. They should be killed , like the Native Americans.

They had it coming anyway, how dare they exercise their freedom of speech.

[knowbody0]

6. lots of natives coming to our table Thursday

we will all eat too much, watch stupid football games, take wee naps then eat some more, divide the leftovers, pick names for gift giving at Christmas, hug each other, maybe cry, definitely laugh. its the best holiday of the year IMHO.

happy Thanksgiving, from our home to yours!

[phasma ex machina]

71. Native American blood also runs in my extended family.

Happy Thanksgiving right back at you!

[optimator]

7. I was just thinking about this subject

what is a good way to stop people from celebrating genocide since lecturing does not work?

[cali]

9. do you really think people will be raising their glasses on Thursday to toast

genocide?

[Dreamer Tatum]

12. What a silly world you live in...truly silly

People getting together to enjoy a meal together and to be thankful for it aren't celebrating genocide. In any case, shouldn't you be more specific? I can tell you with certainty that my ancestors didn't have anything to do with the genocide you're talking about. Am I exempt, or is there some arcane rule you have to condemn people who weren't there for the massacres?

[Uncle Joe]

29. By not spreading division and hatred with the blanket labeling of everyone celebrating a day of

thanks as condoning genocide.

Furthermore, I have found that occasionally stopping to smell the roses, playing with a puppy or just being around family and friends that love or care about me, has actually curtailed my wanton desire to commit genocide. It's more difficult to imagine killing everybody with all that love and thankfulness getting in the way, and even if I still retained the blood-lust desire for mass murder, the sluggishness from pigging out renders me ineffective, so as a result for at least another day or two humanity is safe.

My ultimate conclusion is that overall Thanksgiving's pros out weigh it's cons and is therefor a good and worthy holiday.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[arcadian]

10. Aren't you spreading hate and misery by your very nature, cali?

[dionysus]

20. no, no she isn't.

:shrug:

[omega minimo]

28. Two who do so fell for a dubious OP, as if it was serious and are reacting to it over and over.

So now we have "sanctimonious" OPs against anyone in range of whatever viewpoint/lifestyle that OP was presenting -- which was EXTREME.

It appeared designed to piss people off against what it was purporting to be.

Grain of salt, people, with your holiday politics.

[cali]

34. no. have a nice thanksgiving.

[mrbarber]

53. Kettle, Meet pot.

[H2O Man]

11. Right.

One can celebrate Christmas, without believing in Santa. Thanksgiving feasts are a part of human societies that that started with the practice of agriculture. It does not require a lack of insight into history to have a good time with family and/or friends on Thursday.

I do appreciate threads that provide accurate historical references to the experiences of Native Peoples and Europeans. As this particular holiday is in fact associated in the public mind as being associated with "Indians," it allows a unique oppoortunity to consider both that history, and also current events. This can be accomplished most effectively without angry rants on anyone's part.

Recommended.

[Bobbieo]

13. A story was done about me and my Native Unity blog by a reporter

from a paper in Iowa a few years ago. That same reporter called me last week about my feelings about Thanksgiving and the genocide. I told him we always celebrated Thanksgiving with turkey and all the trimmings, but if he wanted controversey to check up on Columbus Day.

I still get hits every day on a Columbus Day story that was done in 2004. That is where the real controversy lies with some very deep feelings.

[H2O Man]

19. Yep.

Columbus Day provides much the same opportunity. We can celebrate the myth, or use the annual event as an opportunity to present the truth. And, in telling the truth, we can either offend others, or approach the opportunity to make progress in the public's awareness of both history and current events.

I remember when some young folks approached Chief Paul Waterman and I one year. They wanted to disrupt a Columbus Day Parade, and break some 40-ounce bottles of "Crazy Horse Malt Liquor" as a form of protest. A couple things stand out: first, Chief Waterman explain that such tactics were not "our way." It would be wrong to insult, for example, Italian-Americans with such a crude display.

Second, as an experienced activist with connections, I was able to identify that the "leader" of this group -- the one most active in calling for a violent, law-breaking disruption -- was working as an agent for a force that was not interested in advocating for Indian rights. When I presented this information to Paul, he told me to contact the person in private, and to let him know that we knew exactly who he was, and what he was doing. And why he was doing it. That little episode, which caught the person off guard, was a bit tense. Of course, some types of tension can yield positive results. (smile) I enjoyed it, very much.

As always, keep up the great work on your blog. It is much appreciated.

[roguevalley]

83. I also celebrate pagan holidays and look what happened to them.

In this dimly lit world, I am looking for light. In the course of my thanksgiving, I ask the universe for mercy on all of us living and dead. Seems to me that there MUST be a day somewhere where we can be happy. This is as good as any.

[H2O Man]

86. We have 13

"holiday" festivals each year. One for every lunar month. It provides an opportunity for ritual, which is a part of human life that is hard-wired in our brains. Just as it provides an important connection between the gray cells, it helps connect the human "family" ....be it extended family, friends, or community members.

In our way, the only appropriate ceremony is one of thanksgiving, love, foregiveness, and understanding. "Thanks" is a sometimes funny thing: not only thanks for that which is good, but the ability to give thanks for what seems terrible -- for sometimes it is the exact amount of suffering that we endure that allows us to reach the point of understanding. At that time, there is no for feelings of anger, hatred, or desire for revenge.

Have a good holiday.

[roguevalley]

94. You too, H2O Man. I agree with you. I try and be thankful every day

but that is hard. I do find thanks in being with my family. In a world so indifferent to so much, often not because we want it so but because it is, thankful days like this are small and quiet blessings. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours from me and mine.

[lies and propaganda]

14. My half ass sanctimonius screed:

Im an Indian, I cook turkeya nd eat with my family, but you will hear MANY barbs from me throughout the day.

When youre people are raped, pillaged, given small pox blankets and then made to seem like a national welfare queen, I feel you can SCREED AWAY.

[UndertheOcean]

35. Yes , exactly. n/t

[cali]

41. there's an awful lot of people who have that background

All women, for example. screed away.

[JoeyT]

61. That's not quite an accurate comparison.

The race of women weren't almost wiped off the face of the planet. Nor was an entire gender herded into reservations in an attempt to keep them away from decent people. This isn't to take away from what women have gone through, and still go through. Admitting one group has been oppressed doesn't take away from the oppression of another group. It's not a zero sum game. In the sad history of our planet, there's been plenty of oppression to go around. :(

Speaking as an Indian I'm all for Thanksgiving. It's Colombus Day that irritates me. I think your OP was correct: Sanctimony over one dubious history in a holiday that has its roots in many places is pointless and counterproductive. Shall we ban Xmas and Easter because the people that originally kept those holidays were slaughtered and had their holy days integrated to convert them faster? Would we have any holidays left at all?

[gorfle]

15. Gotta look at the silver lining.

Throughout history civilizations have fallen before other civilizations. Usually the lesser gives way to the greater, and usually it's driven by greed and desire.

Great things are lost when it happens, but sometimes great things come out of it.

I'm sorry for what was lost in the birth of our nation, but I'm grateful that our nation was born and, for all its flaws, that it is as good as it is.

In the end, I'm grateful that I'm here with what I've got, and I wouldn't trade it to give them back what they had. I guess I'm selfish.

[Common Sense Party]

16. I'll be with family, GIVING THANKS to GOD for the blessings I've received.

Y'all can do what you want.

[Toasterlad]

87. You're Lucky God Likes You. I Feel Sorry For the Homeless People He Clearly Hates.

[reggie the dog]

17. Thanksgiving should remind us just how cool

the Native Americans in the Iriquoi Confederacy were, those being the people that helped the Pilgrims out and all....

[H2O Man]

23. The Pilgrams were

actually in contact with, and assisted by, members of a different group, known most commonly as Algonquian. The Iroquois Confederacy, or Haudenosaunee, were living to the west of Algonquian peoples, with the Hudson River being the most important dividing line.

In pre-contact times, the Algonquians and Iroquois had generally positive relationships, going back to the Lamoka and Brewerton cultural phases in early archaic times. "Trade wars" that involve distant peoples was at the root of the exceptions to good relationships. Thus, by the time the European traders, then settlers, reached the Hudson, there was acrimony between the various members of the loose-knit Algonquian confederacies, and the most famous Iroquois, the Six Nations.

The Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy played a fascinating role in not only the experiences of the Dutch, French, and English people from that era, but most significantly, in the school of thought that is properly known as the enlightenment into the rights of man.

[reggie the dog]

31. thanks for the info

I thought the Algonquins were part of the six nations, but I stand corrected.....

[paulsby]

18. i will be celebrating

and with more than one native american (wampanoag to be specific). none of us are celebrating genocide. heck, we aren't celebrating the introduction of tobacco to the evul white man with forked tongue (tm) either. or stereotypical unrealistic portrayal of native americans in movies. we will be celebrating life, our great country, the wonderfulness of creamed onions, and our friends and family.

[arcadian]

21. our great country?

So it's a nationalist holiday for you. Yup, thought so.

[paulsby]

22. if celebrating our great country

makes me a nationalist, then i'm a nationalist.

ime, most people in most countries celebrate their country. the french do it on bastille day, for example.

our specific day is july 4th, but in all honesty, barely a day goes by where i don't at least silently think about what a great country i live in, and give thanks. ditto for having a loving family, two psychotic cats, etc.

of course for many people here, the only acceptable attitude towards our country is negative, especially when compared to any member of the EU.

whatEver.

i fucking love my country, and i celebrate it

[arcadian]

25. What's so great about our country today?

What did you think about today, in regards to the greatness of the United States?

[roguevalley]

84. so don't have thanksgiving. anyone else who wants it, good for you.

[Seeking Serenity]

24. And the problem with that is? (n/t)

[arcadian]

27. Nationalism and democracy tend not to do very well together.

[anonymous171]

59. How so? Nationalism encourages national self-determination

Which is a key element of democracy.

[paulsby]

75. nationalism

like many words is not easily defined.

however, if celebrating my own country, and on thanksgiving makes me a NATIONALIST, then ... so what?

[lightningandsnow]

26. Are you Native American?

[cali]

38. no. and I can still have an opinion.

[UndertheOcean]

32. Providing a meal of equivalent value to the poor is a better thing ....

And simply put , Thanksgiving celebrates something that we shouldn't be proud about.

[cali]

36. one can do both. make it your own day.

do what makes you feel right. ignore it, volunteer to help and serve a dinner to those in need, spend it with family or friends or on a street corner protesting.

Just stop trying to bully people into feeling badly or believing as you do.

[UndertheOcean]

39. I am volunteering at a homeless shelter ... the only thing that pains me is

that they are serving meat only , and refusing to provide a vegetarian option.

Eh , but homeless persons have much more grave issues on their plate for me to make a drama out of it

[cali]

40. that;s a wonderful thing to do and I'm glad you recognize that people who are homeless

have greater concerns.

[Obamanaut]

48. Isn't it true that the pilgrims who held a three day feast of giving thanks

did so in the company of the Indians who were in large part responsible for getting them through the arduous winter? Can we be proud that for a brief moment in history people got along?

I am going to cook some cornish game hens. One of our daughters is going to eat with us. We are going to prepare a 'to go' plate of game hen and other stuff and take it to the hospital where our granddaughter is scheduled to have a C section Wednesday.

We are going to be thankful for many things. Miz O didn't die on the highway three years ago. All our children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren are healthy. One grandson is doing well in his sophomore year of college.

We are not celebrating anyone else's happiness or good fortune, nor are we taking upon ourselves the trials and trubulations associated with past misdeeds of previous generations.

If you want to be unhappy, that is fine and it is your right to do so - we are happy, content, and by sunset Thursday will be plump and well fed.

[H2O Man]

73. While true,

this event was not in any way connected with the "first" Thanksgiving being celebrated in this country. However, like thousands of other similar Thanksgiving festivals, it is a fine thing to think about. It's just that many of us would like others to be aware of the actual history. That doesn't mean that people should feel guilty, or not take time to enjoy the holiday.

[Codeine]

58. The only thing I'm celebrating

is time with cherished friends and a hot plate of Tofurkey and trimmings. My people got here too late for the genocide anyway. We were too busy invading Poland and the Soviet Union -- whole different genocide. Not my fault for that one either, btw.

[anonymous171]

60. Oh yeah, I almost forgot about your whole "racial/karmic guilt" theory.

:rofl:

[Warren DeMontague]

67. It's sort of like original sin, but more selective.

And more fun that way.

[UndertheOcean]

91. That is not a theory , that is an inclination, a hunch so to speak.

[uppityperson]

37. People celebrated Fall Harvest more than 250 yrs ago. It isn't about "pilgrims&indians" but

about "thanking mother earth, father sky and god. mother earth and father sky for the food they give us and god for making mother earth and father sky" as said by a 4 yr old uppitykid.

[Arctic Dave]

42. My wife celebrates by skalping the nieghbors. It's really easy after they are passed out from

eating too much. Good times.

[Kaleva]

43. And we should be upset by that?

LOL! just messing with you!

[Shell Beau]

44. Seeing as how all of my family is off Thursday, I will

take advantage of all of us being together and be thankful for that.

[Odin2005]

45. I have many relatives that are part Native. We all celebrate Turkey Day.

[Nye Bevan]

46. It's worse on Columbus Day around here.

Genocide... conquest... indigenous peoples.... theft... destruction.... these oh-so politically correct Columbus Day posts practically write themselves.

I don't have any patience for all that stuff. Happy Columbus Day. Happy Thanksgiving. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. And to all a good night. :)

[Blue For You]

47. The turkey was a totem animal for some Indians (Lenape, Hopi etc).

If I'm not mistaken, coastal NC Indians (Croatan, Coree etc) referred to Englishmen as swans. Now, suppose the Indians had gone to England, and wiped out most of the people, and celebrated the event by having a feast with "cooked swans". It's pretty clear what's behind the "turkey" symbology. But hey, let your conscience be your guide.

[cali]

49. if ifs and ands were pots and pans.....

thanksgiving is what you make it. it can be a day to volunteer or get together with family and friends.

I'm not celebrating the genocide of Native Americans.

[Dorian Gray]

50. I'll actually be suffering

through a dinner with my in-laws.

There will be absolutely NO celebration on my part!

[yewberry]

52. Oh, did someone rain on your parade?

:cry:

What I don't get is why you even look at threads with titles like "This Thanksgiving, consider a Tofurky." You know perfectly well that you aren't going to consider a tofurky, but it's like you can't resist going into the thread and cussing someone out for daring to suggest such a thing. And "Thankstaking Day USA?" Why would you not simply hide that thread, given the fact that you've got your little party all planned out and you don't want to hear it from anyone?

And then you go on and post your own sanctimonious screed, as if it's somehow going to make the world a better place?

You don't want to own it, but you're doing exactly the thing that you're decrying.

We're all free to make our own choices, "sweetie." You're free to celebrate whatever you want and others are free to say what they want. If you don't want to read the ethics of what you're doing being questioned, learn to ignore the threads that do so.

[cali]

54. ooh, aren't you outraged. might I ask why you entered this thread and

are so loathe to follow your own advice? can you spell hypocrisy?

You sure can practice it, darlin'.

Have a wonderful thanksgiving. Or not.

[yewberry]

55. *snicker*

Not much outrage here. You might try rereading my post. That's amusement.

And I can certainly spell hypocrisy; the question is, can you define it? Had I posted one of the "sanctimonious screeds" telling others what to do or think, you might have a point. I didn't, but you did.

[omega minimo]

77. "You don't want to own it, but you're doing exactly the thing that you're decrying."

[4lbs]

56. I don't see it as celebrating a genocide at all.

To me, it's a day of giving thanks to the American Indian for saving the asses of a bunch of stupid settlers who weren't smart enough to plan for a 3 month winter away from home.


If you can, go to an Indian casino, and make a hundred dollar "donation" this weekend. I am. :D

[anonymous171]

57. There already was one. It also managed to work vegatarianism into the issue as well.

Apparently, eating tofurkey helps relieve the race guilt we as americans received from our ancestors from when they committed their genocide against the Native Americans.

[Warren DeMontague]

62. Yet no one wanted to comment on the allegations that tofurkey is involved with the porn industry

And they support smoking bans, kids on airplanes, and eating at the Olive Garden.

[yewberry]

63. Y'know, I know you're trying to be cute,

but that's an independent, family-owned business you're talking about, and there are some among us who will take your post at face value and cite it in later discussion.

[Warren DeMontague]

64. Heavens! A Joke?!?!?! Mmmmm, methinks they'll survive.

Anyway, if the anti-porn finger waggers face off against the anti-meat finger waggers, it won't be a very big showdown. Maybe you haven't noticed, but 98% of DU isn't terribly uptight about either.

FWIW, I'd bet I buy more tofurkey a month than you do.

[yewberry]

65. Betcha you're right.

I'm one of those assholes who'll buy tofurky but only rarely and all the wile complain about Unturkey being off the market. It's like an annual tradition.

[Warren DeMontague]

66. I like the sliced sandwich meat. The one that you roast is, eh, questionable.

I actually had a couple years where I ate no meat, and I think we did an Xmas/Hanukkah dinner for my SIL & BIL with one of the roasted tofurkeys. I didn't mind it that much, but this was 7 or 8 years ago and I still think they haven't fully forgiven us.

[yewberry]

68. I'm not so big on it myself.

I gave up meat long before there were so many analogues available, and the "meatiness" of many of them freaks me out. I did save Thanksgiving with a tofurky one year, though--my mom & her partner tried to fry their turkey, and we all ended up sharing the tofurky.

At least no one was hurt.

[Warren DeMontague]

69. Yeah, those turkey frying accidents can get ugly,

No shit.

[NightWatcher]

70. I used to wear my AIM shirt to the extended family dinner, but have been asked to stop

95% of the extended family that will be at Turkey Day (that's what I call it) are raging rw'ers with no sense of irony or hypocrisy.


I pray for my (ok my father's) people on Turkey Day. I pray for the imprisoned, like Leonard Peltier, and the thousands that are huddled around stoves and burning barrels on reservations like Pine Ridge where they still pay for the sins of having been nice to the first whites who showed up on their shores.

[Divine Discontent]

78. horrendous what was done 500 years ago, yes, but they're making up for the travesty over time.

I am of a certain background similar to what you're discussing, and there are many on the reservations with a lot more than I have (and some with far less, yes). So, I take the holiday for what it means to us today - thankful for our blessings. I think it's a good thing to do.

[Luciferous]

72. I'll just be enjoying a good meal with my family nt

[rhett o rick]

74. Once again I agree with you cali. I hope I am not on your ignore list so you can read this. nt

[cali]

85. no you certainly aren't on my ignore list

happy turkey day, rhett o rick.

[rhett o rick]

88. And the same to you cali. nt

[HipChick]

76. I don't celebrate Thanksgiving ..period

I was raised in Europe..not real big there..

[cowcommander]

79. I wasn't born in the U.S either

But I consider Thanksgiving to be a wonderful holiday to celebrate and enjoy my family's company. Nothing wrong with that at all, it's a fine tradition.

[tkmorris]

80. "Trying to impose your beliefs and spread hate and misery"

That sounds an AWFUL lot like what the Mayflower immigrants were trying to do. I get the point you are trying to make but I think you are being awfully obtuse about why some people might find the whole idea somewhat distasteful.

[UndertheOcean]

92. [phone]

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

90. I Celebrate the Birth of Fundamentalism on North American Soil!

Thank you Pilgrims, for being the Native killing, self-flagellating, witch-burning lunatics you were born to be and for bringing imperialism to the shores of North America. If it was not for your fine example, we would have a totally different nation right now!

Seriously, Cali; you don't get to decide what people say or write on the internet. Nice try though. Now STFU and go eat some turkey with your family.

[UndertheOcean]

93. [phone]