BART police have another incident - Video

[Cant trust em]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2009/11/22/BA9V1AORMM.DTL&o=0

[Ignis]

1. Jeeeeeeeeeezus, what an asshole cop.

I see anger management counseling in his future.

[proteus_lives]

3. Yeah, what an asshole.

People were clapping that he got a drunk racist off the train. What a bastard. :sarcasm:

[Ignis]

6. And the only way to do so was to slam his head into the glass?

And then into the concrete counter?

Way to defend the indefensible. :thumbsdown:

[proteus_lives]

8. He didn't do anything wrong. The drunk racist is at fault here.

How would you arrest a drunk who is resisting?

Would you rather the guy got tazered?

[Ignis]

15. You didn't answer my question. Was it the only way? (nt)

[dusmcj]

18. who cares ? It worked, and there probably isn't much in there to get damaged /nt

[Ignis]

22. The victim cares, his family cares, and I care.

You can cede all your rights and liberties if you like.
I, however, live in the USA and expect LEOs to avoid cruel and unusual punishment.

[dusmcj]

23. the idiot population is approaching criticality and civil society is at risk

no civil society, no one to protect civil liberties for anyone, including those who never behaved illegally or otherwise undermined it to begin with.

A social structure which supports civil liberties requires understanding of and participation in the social compact by all, it's not mommy and daddy giving you what you want and taking care of the mechanics of delivering it for you.

Kinda like when people get shot for breaking and entering and then their families try to take the shooter to civil course for wrongful death. When the real problem is junior behaving like a wrongful asshole.

[Ignis]

24. So cops should get to do whatever they want?

Well, you can root for the biggest or best-outfitted organized gang if you want.

Personally, I'm a fan of rule of law, due process, and the Bill of Rights.

[dusmcj]

28. numbskulls shouldn't bet treated with kid gloves, and if subduing a public nuisance by

pushing them into a wall in order to obtain "compliance" is needed, I have no problem with it. 20 years ago he would have made contact with the cop's nightstick, fist or boot. That would have been a problem.

Let's try to avoid supporting stereotypes of ourselves as self-indulgent pantywaists who think the Bill of Rights is there to let assholes do whatever they want and get away with it. That wouldn't aid our causes.

[Ignis]

29. "self-indulgent pantywaists" -- Yeah, that's a giveaway.

So if a citizen drinks alcohol, s/he forfeits all rights to due process and the 8th Amendment?

It's regrettable that some citizens are quick to cede not only their rights, but those of all citizens.

[dusmcj]

43. personally I wouldn't like a drunken dork to be the test for my civil rights/nt

[Ignis]

44. Fair point, but sometimes the ugly ones are the real tests.

It's easy to defend the 8th Amendment when the cops taser a sweet, old granny to death.

[proteus_lives]

31. It looked that way to me. It looked the cop was trying to move him away the people...

On the train and and he decided the best way to get control of the situation was to put him up against the wall. I highly doubt that the LEO's intention was to put his head through the glass.

[Ignis]

32. Sure, because it's easier to cuff them that way. Easier =!= best.

The drunk was not actively resisting after the officer made contact. There was no need to push him so hard against a wall that the wall--in this case made of glass--broke under the impact.

The continuum of force exists for a reason. This is a training/policy failure.

[Gwendolyn]

11. Looks like it was an accident.

Drunks have a way of pulling people along with them... ever try to drag one out of a bar or into bed after a night out?

In this case the cop ended up with face stitches and a concussion and drunk dude got bloody too. Don't think he meant for it to get to that.

[Ignis]

16. Yes, I worked security at several events when I was younger.

And believe it or not, there are often drunks at concerts, festivals, etc. where beer is served. But I never had to take the first physical action against a drunk: They're easy to talk down, and the ones who are too belligerent to talk and are just looking for a fight are incredibly likely to take the first swing.

The only reason this cop shoved the drunk into a wall/window/counter is because he could. The drunk was off the train and under control, but someone was apparently suffering from White Bald Anger disease.

Good thing more citizens carry cameras these days. :thumbsup:

[Gwendolyn]

35. Well I've never been in a fight personally, so obviously have no expertise in this area.

It's clear though from the vid that drunk man put his fist through the glass. Another report said he suffered injuries to his hand, forearm and palm, in addition to his head. I'm assuming both got the head injuries from falling glass. Also, it's been reported that it took off duty cops and a couple of passengers to get drunk dude subdued afterward so I'm not sure this guy resembles the easy-going blissed out guys you dealt with.

What's White Bald Anger? :D

[hfojvt]

37. actually you are right

I did not notice that the first two times. It looked at first, to me, that he got his head slammed into the window, but he actually swings his right hand into it and that is what broke it. Not that easy to see on that tiny screen though.

[Gwendolyn]

38. First time I watched it without sound, it was clear he went in fist first.

It's only after being influenced by the news commentator that you tend to see it the way she said it. Amazing how that works isn't it?

[Ignis]

40. The cop has him in an armhold and is propelling him forward.

Watch around 0:47 and you'll see that.

Or just go back to 0:44 and watch how cop #2 escalates the conflict by grabbing the drunk rider near the neck from outside his field of vision.

This is a failure not only of conflict resolution training but also continuum of force training.

[lies and propaganda]

2. WTF?!?!?!?!

sure, the guy was being a dick.
sure, people applauded when he was taken out..

So the next course of action is to put his fucking HEAD THROUGH A WINDOW?!

what if he had slashed his jugular and dude bled out and died just for being a LOUD DICK??

11 months after they killed Oscar Grant who was laying on his fucking stomach on the ground.

[proteus_lives]

4. The guy was struggling and they were both propelled into the glass.

He didn't "put his head through the window". At the most he was trying to slam him up against the wall to get the cuffs on him.

The BART station has some explaining to do on why their "safety" glass is anything but.

[Xithras]

17. I've never seen "safety" glass like that.

I've seen three different materials marketed as "safety" glass over the years. The first is glass with a thickness of a half inch or greater, which can take an enormous impact before breaking. The second is glass with a plastic layer over the top to help hold the glass together in case of impact. The third is tempered glass, which shatters into fairly small and far less harmful pieces when broken.

The glass in that video broke like plain old plate glass. My guess is that some subcontractor padded his profit margins back when the station was built.

[anigbrowl]

20. Correct

It's just regular glass. I've been in that station many times and wondered about that myself - if you lean against the glass waiting for a train it's not very solid, and the construction (frames etc) is cheap, which is weird considering it overlooks a 30 foot drop.

[proteus_lives]

30. That was my thought too.

Someone put in cheap and inferior glass and pocketed the difference.

[Gwendolyn]

36. Maybe it's the same safety glass they use in Western flick saloon windows. n/t

[lies and propaganda]

21. we watched something different then.

He walked him over and stuck his head through the window, clear as day to me. And if he was struggling, is the ground not the better option?

[proteus_lives]

34. You wanted to see something different.

He was struggling and the inferior glass broke. The LEO was obviously trying to put him against the wall so he could get the cuffs on.

[proteus_lives]

5. I watched the whole video. The LEO didn't do anything wrong.

I don't think he thought that glass was going to break.

Makes me wonder how much "safety" glass is just regular glass with a different name.

[Ignis]

7. So this was proportionate force?

It was impossible to take the guy down or otherwise move him off the train without smashing his head through a window?

Why not just shoot the guy and be done with it? That seems to be the BART police M.O. Too much paperwork?

[proteus_lives]

9. What should he have done then?

The guy is drunk and resisting.

"It was impossible to take the guy down or otherwise move him off the train without smashing his head through a window?"

I doubt the LEO thought the safety glass was going to break. He was trying to immobilize him so he could get the cuffs on.

Once again smart-guy, what would you have done?

[Ignis]

12. "smart-guy" -- And here it comes, right on schedule.

Heavens forfend someone on DU dares to disagree with you. If they do, they're obviously an idiot. :eyes:

This aggro cop was obviously able to physically restrain the victim via an armlock. Of course, being the big tough guy he is, he had to smash the victim's head against a wall first.

But the joke's on him: Glass walls can break, and sometimes citizens have cameras.

[proteus_lives]

33. I'm not calling you an idiot.

You're the one ready to string up the cop. He wasn't trying to smash his head against the wall. I watched the tape and it's obvious that the guy was resisting and the LEO chose the best option.

I'm trying to understand your claims of brutality when it's obvious that there was none.

[Ignis]

39. Here are the continuum of force failures:

0:42 - Cop #2 lunges at the rider and grabs him by the neck area.
- Looks like he got clothes and not a good handhold at first.
- The rider puts up his hand as the cop does this, which probably pissed the cop off to no end.

0:45 - Cop has rider in an armhold and is propelling him forward, off the train.
- Look at the cop's legs: He is not being pulled, he is pushing the rider forward to the wall using the armhold.
- Rider is not resisting.

0:47 - Cop pivots slightly and propels rider into the window, using his arm as a lever.
- Rider gets his hand up in front of his face before his head hits the window full-force.


Could we tell more from other angles? Sure, but the cop was in control of the situation, so any harm that came to the rider is on him. To some extent, it doesn't matter whether the rider was thrown into the window or he punched it: The cop had him under control, and lost control of the situation.

[Cant trust em]

13. My guess is that the cop is following SOP around subduing a hostile person

People get slammed into a wall. Unfortunately this wall was made out of glass.

It was a boneheaded move, but I don't think the intent was to shove the guy's head through a window.

[Taverner]

10. What a DUMBSHIT cop!

He HAD the guy

He could have hogtied him, instead of pushing his head through the glass, and all would be good

What possible benefit would the cop get for pushing his head through the glass?

[Ignis]

14. Answer: Authoritarian Jollies.

As you say, the cop had the guy off the train and under (enough) control. There was no need to play Macho Man and smash him against a wall/window/counter.

[anigbrowl]

19. After watching it, looks a lot more like the guy punched out the window.

I live in the area so I'm well aware of the reputation of BART police. On the other hand, the vast majority of the times I've sent hem in action (maybe 20 incidents over the years) they've been responsible and professional. This arrestee was pretty clearly looking for trouble and I think the cop handled it OK. It's worth noting that the guy injured his hand, not his head.

[Ignis]

25. If my face were about be shoved into a plate-glass window...

You can be damn sure I'd try to put my free hand in front of it, too.

[anigbrowl]

26. it's hard to be sure about the degree to which the cop is propelling him

I have no problem criticizing the police for excessive force (if you look at my post history you'll see I'm extremely skeptical of taser use, among other things), but on the other hand it isn't always possible to control someone's momentum. I'd really need to see video from another angle (eg the station cameras) before I would draw any firm conclusions about this - a single perspective can be misleading.

[Ignis]

27. Good point re: the angle.

But re: momentum, it didn't seem like the cop was being pulled along behind the drunk.

[alp227]

41. Update: There may be ANOTHER lawsuit against BART Police

The San Francisco Chronicle reported today that Oakland civil rights attorney John Burris is representing the suspect, Michael Joseph Gibson, in a possible lawsuit.

"I'm particularly offended by the criminal charges - that he was arrested for assault on a police officer - because it was the officer who was the aggressive person, and the officer who manhandled him and threw him against the window," Burris said.

"These are cover-up charges, because Mr. Gibson did not do the crimes he was arrested for," Burris said. "The officer, by charging them, he is covering for his own misconduct."

Burris said Gibson might be guilty of disturbing the peace. "But the manner in which the officer grabbed him and assaulted him was unjustified," he said.

Burris also currently represents the family of Oscar Grant, who disgraced former BART cop Johannes Mehserle shot to death on the wee first hours of 2009, in the Grant family's lawsuit against BART.

And my take on this. I do appreciate the cop getting the annoyance out of the train but have a problem with the cop hitting the suspect against the wall hard enough for the glass to break. The shattering symbolises "crossing the line". Really. Both suspect and officer had injuries from the broken glass. Sure teaches you a lesson enough, Mr. Officer? From both times I've seen the video (online and the TV news) I see no evidence that Gibson resisted arrest. So all that should've been done: Take Gibson to jail and charge him with disorderly conduct or whatever in the law should be applied.

EDIT: OK I'm watching the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBFjP-GV8BE">video right now and notice that Gibson's right hand touches the glass wall upon impact & shatter. So I have doubt if the police officer is at most fault. The cop's head is right behind Gibson's, so I can't tell for sure if the officer shoved Gibson in or Gibson's head just drooped down.

I'm still confused despite repeatedly viewing the video in slo-mo/freeze-frame on youtube.

[happyslug]

42. Comment on the Glass Breaking.

Safety Glass comes in two types, Laminated which is two pieces of glass with a plastic liner to keep the glass together if the glass breaks and Tempered glass, which is heat tempered and when it breaks, it breaks into tiny little pieces. In the US Automotive Windshields are laminated for Windshields must be "Shatter Proof", almost every other glass in an Automobile is Tempered Glass, for it is cheaper and stronger but breaks into tiny little pieces when it breaks.

Having said that, it is clear how this glass break it was NOT safety glass, it was ordinary plate glass. In my opinion should NOT have been installed in that location, but Plate is cheaper then Tempered Glass (And Tempered Glass, once tempered, can NOT be cut unlike Laminated and Plate glass).

One last comment on Glass, when I sold glass we had a saying, glass was designed to break. We joked that out guarantee on glass was give steps or five seconds whichever occurred first. Why did this glass break? Something hit it, but the force needed to break it could have been as little as a bee hitting it. The fact that the glass broke proves nothing EXCEPT that something hit it. The amount of force could have been as little as a bee hitting it, or as strong as a car hitting it at full speed. We can NOT tell by the fact that the glass broke.

Now, as to the Police Officer, it looks to me he had the defendant in his control and was taking him off the train. Once off the train, the officer was apparently taking him to a wall to cuff him. The Officer seems to want to avoid cuffing the person on the train (So not to tie up the train) not cuff him outside on the train for the same reason. Given that the preferred place to cuff someone is on a wall, to the wall of glass is where the officer was taking the Defendant. Remember the officer did NOT have complete control over the Defendant, through the defendant appears NOT to be fighting him (Through also NOT co-operating with the officer). Thus the Officer taking the suspect to the wall is completely understandable. The Glass breaking is just the nature of Glass (Through that brings up the issue why those panels are NOT tempered glass which in my opinion they should be). In simple terms does NOT look like a case of excessive use of force by the Officer, more a picture of an arrest where the Officer was making sure the defendant was off the train so not to tie up the train and then the officer's bad luck of trying to use a plate glass panel as a wall.