You know what's worst about terrorists having trial? It's that much of what they will say is true.

[Political Heretic]

You know what upsets me most about what they will do at trial? It's not that they'll have the opportunity to speak in their own defense. It's the fact that nothing they could say, no matter how right or wrong it may be, justifies mass murder of civilians. Nothing.

And yet, many of their criticisms - when unfiltered by US media or government - are basically true. We are an imperialist, hegemonic empire that interferes with the entire world for our own profit and exploitation. That's just a fact. We do interfere in the middle east, set up bases everywhere, rob them of their resources, interfere in their governments and affairs. We unquestioningly defend one of the greatest terrorist states in the region, and we unquestioningly defend one of the greatest human rights abusers in the region. Not the only one, but one of them. That's just a fact.

We meddle, we kill, and we exploit others all for our personal corporation's and financial elites profit and power gain - and then we point the figure at other countries and lecture them about human rights or terrorism.

What bothers me most about the fact that these criminal mass murders will be able to speak is that these truths will be uttered by them, and thus they will be discredited, trivialized and dismissed by America as "just the rantings of terrorists" rather than acknowledged as the truth that we deliberately ignore.

Just because terrorism is completely unjust does not mean that the criticisms of our Empire are unfounded. But I think that we as a society sort of "like" that terrorists say this stuff - because it allows us to blow off truthful observations as the "mere rantings of lunatics and evil men" and feel better about ourselves somehow.

[emulatorloo]

1. I am not big on the ravings of religious fundamentalists: "Pray for Obama" "Tiller the Killer"

or "Death to the Great Satan!"

JMHO, carry on.

[Political Heretic]

30. Except that's not what they say. That's what WE say they say.

American imperialist political media: they hate us for our freedom, say we are "Satan" for no reason, just envy our way of life

Statements received over and over again from actual terrorists: (1) you meddle in our affairs (2) you spit on our religion and culture (3) your put military troops on our holy, sacred lands (3) you prop up Israel and marginalize the Palestinians (4) you take our resources as your own, often by force. Thus you are the Great Satan.


They don't just "hate us" for our freedoms. They hate us for what we do. The tragedy is that some people still actually think that if we weren't doing all the things described above that they would still attack us because we have different "relgions." I'd gently remind you that Canada doesn't get bombed. They also don't go around meddling in world affairs, stealing their resources, or desecrating their holy lands either.

So maybe it has more to do with that, eh ?

[varelse]

2. They had no right to attack and murder 3,000 innocent people

they had every right to speak out and try to hold the American government accountable in legal and just ways. There is no excuse, no defense, for what they did.

[dogknob]

3. OP does not defend their actions

...but instead laments the fact that much of what they say will likely dovetail with progressives in this country and that the US corporatocracy will use the words of these butchers to strengthen their own positions and inexorably link progressive debate with mass-murder in the eyes of John/Jane Q. Public.

[emulatorloo]

4. I don't know why any DU'er would want to link Progressives and Terrorists as "dovetailing"

in any way shape or form. The progressive philosophy is the polar opposite of the Al Qaeda philosophy.

There is nothing about the Al Qaeda worldview that does not make me shudder. They are about as far from Progressive as you can get.

[varelse]

5. Yes, I do wonder why any DU'er would attempt to link the two

certainly it does nothing for any progressive forum or cause to be linked in such a manner.

[Fumesucker]

8. The point the poster you are replying to is trying to make is this..

That many criticisms of US foreign policy that progressives make sound the same or very similar to criticisms that some terrorists make.

And that the corporate media will make no bones about pointing out those similarities.

[emulatorloo]

11. OP asserts that the terrorists are "truthtellers" and s/he is upset that "America" will ignore them

I don't see Political Heretic arguing that corp media will conflate progressives and terrorists in order to dismiss progressives.

Again I think progressives and terrorists are polar opposites

ON EDIT: Spelling.

[Fumesucker]

13. Here is what the OP said..

What bothers me most about the fact that these criminal mass murders will be able to speak is that these truths will be uttered by them, and thus they will be discredited, trivialized and dismissed by America as "just the rantings of terrorists" rather than acknowledged as the truth that we deliberately ignore.

And who is going to be doing much of the discrediting, trivializing and dismissing other than the corporate media?

[emulatorloo]

14. He doesn't say media - he says "America" "We as a Society" will do this

But I think that we as a society sort of "like" that terrorists say this stuff - because it allows us to blow off truthful observations as the "mere rantings of lunatics and evil men" and feel better about ourselves somehow.

Anyway it is not worth you and I arguing about the details.

I am just disturbed by the linking of Progressives to the 9/11 attackers.

To me it is similar to when DU'ers get all "Ron Paul is a truthteller!". That is just an analogy of what seems to be going on here, this is far more extreme and far more upsetting to me.

Progressives have nothing in common with the 9/11 attackers.

[Fumesucker]

16. We as a society largely think what the media tells us to think..

Not everyone in society but the most common memes are those promulgated by the M$M.

You really have to unplug the TV and stand back for a while before you can realize just how insidious it is.

[RC]

6. Keep in mind, they had help from our own government.

[varelse]

35. They didn't get much hindrance from it surely

and there is no excuse for that :(

[Fumesucker]

7. Just as there is no defense for much of what *we* do as a nation..

Millions dead around the world due to American aggression since WWII.

[Political Heretic]

15. Great, since my OP doesn't make andy defense or excuse for what they did.

:shrug:

[SpiralHawk]

19. Have they been convicted already?

I mean, is this an open and shut case? Have they confessed? Has the evidence been presented already and found worthy?

I may have missed out. I thought the trial was to try and convict these guys and to demonstrate whether they are guilty, but it seems like everyone just atakes it for granted that they are. Could be that I am missing out on their confessions (torture or not?), or on some of the news...?

So much damn 'news' I can't keep up with it all...

[varelse]

34. Apparently they do not plan to contest the fact of their responsibility for the crimes

they wish to plead not guilty so that they can then testify in defense of their actions in court.

[scarletwoman]

9. That's an excellent point and an insightful observation.

You're correct, it will strengthen the black/white view of the world, and further erode what little receptivity still exists to honest criticism of American imperialism.

The American way of life is built on lies and illusions. Eventually it will have to crumble, just as Soviet communism crumbled.

sw

[blindpig]

32. Which may be reason for the trial venue

'Think of the drama! The ratings!'

When announced it didn't make sense to me, figured that the water boarding would get the confessions thrown out....or mebbe water boarding will be vindicated and rehabilitated.

k&r

[Fly by night]

10. I always liked Kucinich's line: "Just how did OUR oil get under THEIR soil?"

[anonymous171]

12. That's probably not what they are going to say though. nt

[cali]

17. that's so simplistic. '

and of course you have no idea what they'll say. you're projecting.

[Political Heretic]

27. Everyone has an idea what they'll say.

It's not a "mystery."

[vadawg]

18. no whats worse than what you wrote is if one of them walks

all it needs is one technicality, oh maybe like the suspect was tortured for info, im sure their lawyers will be looking for any technicality to have them released. Can you imagine the backlash if KSM gives a press conference telling how he planned the attacks and how he got released due to a technicality, the whitehouse would be burned to the ground...

[Fumesucker]

20. Yeah, torture is just a technicality..

And I really, really hope you didn't mean this literally..

the whitehouse would be burned to the ground...

[vadawg]

22. i guess yiou missed the sarcasm in the technicality part

and i mean if KSM gets a walk then the whitehouse would be burned to the ground literally, can you imagine the uproar if he gets to walk, you know the guy who planned 911.

[Fumesucker]

25. Sarcasm doesn't come across all that well in text, unfortunately.

And if the SS lets the White House be burned to the ground then they aren't the organization I think they are.

[Bonn1997]

23. I don't think any jurrors are going to let them walk on a technicality even if that's what a truly

objective following of the law would lead to.

[Political Heretic]

29. Then I'm not sure what they says about our justice system either.

We follow the letter of the law sometimes, but then if there's enough of a mass mob shouting "burn them" we ignore the law and instead go for mob rule?

I don't think there can be a fair trial within the US, given the particular extreme circumstances of this case.

[Bonn1997]

33. It says our justice system works in a subjective manner in which certain groups of people are

consistently disadvantaged. I don't think they can get a fair trial in the US either.

Also, we should really be referring to them as "alleged terrorists" rather than as "terrorists."

[malaise]

21. That's why the neo-cons don't want

the trials in the US.

[Political Heretic]

26. Of course.

[EFerrari]

28. Maybe the trials shouldn't be in the US.

They can't get a real trial here anyway.

This is theater and it's disgusting.

[historian]

24. bingo!

Why do you think bin laden got away? On the night of 9/11 the only plane allowed to fly was a middle eastern airline and the only passengers on board where the bin ladens living in the usa. Bin Ladens have been involved in back scratching with the bushies since time immemorial. Just think what osama would have to say if he were captured and sent to trial? Of course they never "caught" him the whole thing is so obvious it makes me sick to hear people go on and on about our ability to accomplish anything these days.

[Political Heretic]

31. To be clear, the issue isn't that religious fanaticism doesn't play a role.....

It's that we are easy targets, and its clear that the perpetrators are religious fanatics. But terrorists have it easy in recruiting because they can pray on a real sense of anger and oppression felt by many, select the few that are also religious fanatics, combine those two things into a terrible combination.

The point here is to admit to our role in making it easy to recruit terrorist fanatics against us. It's a little cliche, but raising the point that Canada isn't being targeted like we are should help us reflect a bit.

I'll say again, certainly those recruited to terrorism against the US are religious fanatics that have no problem committing mass murder and then justifying it with their "faith." But its our activity in the world that makes recruiting so easy. And no terrorist that I'm aware of has ever given a personal statement that says "I hate you for your freedoms." That's an insane trivialization of what is going on.

Our hegemonic practices make us prime targets for violence from poor, religiously fanatical, persons who feel they have nothing to lose. That motivation is missing when it comes to countries who are not actively exploiting the middle east or basing their military all over the region or leading invasions of middle eastern countries.

So to return to point, what's tragic is that its nearly certain that these terrorists will raise these points - which will only cheapen and discredit the points in the eyes of Americans. True points being uttered by evil, violent, disgusting men goes a long way to burying truth.

I wish that at the same time we were combating terrorism we would also reflect more on what it is about our actions as a country that make us such prime targets. We ought to be able to do both.

[varelse]

36. To bad we were not able to impeach and prosecute our own home-based terrorists

you know... the ones that until recently occupied the highest offices in the land? That's never going to happen now. These guys will be put on trial but I very much doubt that this trial will be publicized - or that they're going to get much "Perry Mason" style speech-making time while testifying.

Whatever needs to be said about our country's perpetual warfare state, our hypocrisy, and our evil imperialistic ambitions should continue to be said by her citizens who have both the right and the duty to speak out.

If your issue lies with media coverage, then yes, it is very sad that the thousands of people who protested the war and were ignored by the media, and the hundreds who had information which might have stopped the war but who were silenced will not get the attention (or the spin) that this trial will get.