Both House and Senate versions of "Insurance Care Reform" actively harm poor and working Americans.

[Political Heretic]

Do these bills prioritize the needs of the poor and working class ahead of the needs of the financial elite? Of course it does not.

But there's an even more damning reality: these bills aren't even about a purity vs. practicality argument. It's not about getting "something" for the poor and working class because something is better than nothing. Both of these bills in current form actively hurt poor and working class individuals and families over the long run. :(

Given the actual details between both the Senate and House bills - given the huge decrease in subsidies for the poor to even buy insurance at all in the house bill, given the change of subsidies to the form of tax credits in the Senate - further going against the best interests of the poor, given that no preexisting condition denials will be banned if the Senate bill became law, but rather only a promise that they would eventually be banned in 2014 (of course a new congress and massive, massive lobbying against it after all public attention has turned away will threaten its chance of ever happening)

Given the severe weakening of any public option, to the point that it does not even serve its purpose of providing substantive competition to private insurance, given the multi-billion dollar giveaway to pharmaceuticals and health insurance contained in the bill...... just as a few examples.....

Both House and Senate versions of this Bill fail poor and working Americans.

• It does not have sufficient benefits (for ordinary Americans)
  
• It has critical problems (for ordinary Americans)
  
• The benefits do not effectively outweigh any remaining non-critical problems (for ordinary Americans)
  
• All things being equal, further effort to produce different or better policy on this issue would be more helpful(to ordinary Americans) than harmful.
  

These bills as they stand, do not help poor and working class Americans even a little bit over the long run. There are no protections against rising costs, no guaranteed banning of denial based on preexisting conditions, no guaranteed protections capping out of pocket experiences or yearly or lifetime caps on coverage.

It pains me that the bills are so broken that Republicans can make an actual really point, but it is correct that premiums will rise, because there are no strong, concrete restrictions on private insurers keeping them form raising prices after getting millions of new mandated customers.

Covering 97% of American doesn't matter if the subsidies for the poor are weak and insufficient, premium costs are not redistricted, preexisting condition denial is not banned (only the promise of banning in 2014) and on and on and on.

That's what's tragic. These bills don't help poor and working Americans AT ALL. It's not a debate about purity or perfection vs. good. It's about whether or not we back national Democrats as the pass a bill that actually does more harm than good long term to ordinary Americans so that they can have a political victory for the party.

These are sad, sad days.

[pecwae]

1. Knr. Well stated. nt

[glowing]

2. We could try pushing for real reform now... Perhaps they'll pretend to listen.

We've got the Thanksgiving break to try and talk to our Senators.. They debate after the break.

[laughingliberal]

3. It's been my impression, for a while, that when they talk of lowering costs

they are referring to lowering the government's costs, not the citizens' costs. Some of the poor will be helped as the income levels for Medicaid are being raised a little. I had the experience of working with patients, in the past, who were denied Medicaid for making as little as $2 above the income level. They will be helped. But working class? Pffft! I have been saying since my first reading that if they don't get a kick ass PO in there this bill will be the final nail in the coffin of the working class.

[Cleita]

5. The whole debate has been framed in words to do with cost and

consumerism, instead of health care needs and access.

[Cleita]

4. I'm still waiting for the final bill signed by the President to happen before

I go into full rant. These millionaires making laws really don't have clue. A few of them do but most don't. Once the bill is signed it will be awhile before it becomes law. Activists have time then to storm the Bastille and get it done right. Now we know what they won't do so we must turn our focus to elections and getting the money and corporate whores out of office.

[Political Heretic]

6. Every iteration of the bills has made things worse. What magic are you expecting to happen, exactly

?

[Cleita]

7. Revolution and it will come.

Have you seen what is happening in California in the Universities, protests, riots and arrests just like the sixties and it isn't just students? It's faculty and workers joining the students. They are pissed because they are being screwed and not liking it. The media is ignoring it but it is happening and it's getting ugly. Once people realize they have been had and nothing is going to happen in five years, while the insurance companies continue to gouge and then deny them, you will see revolution. Nobody is waiting another five years. I say we demand that Medicare be made available to everyone until then. They can send it to the budget committee to figure out how to pay for it but they will have to do something in the interim until something becomes permanent and workable because people aren't going to take it any more.

[patrice]

8. I'm with you Cleita, but how do I get my Blue Dog to tell us what he's

willing to give up if there's enough cover?

[Cleita]

12. You aren't going to get a blue dog to change because they are

basically Republicans so they have to side with business and that means insurance companies. You can look around for a progressive to run against them in the primaries like the one who is going to run against Blanche Lincoln in the primaries. I think it's time to do a lot of house cleaning in both the house and Senate. It seems getting rid of the Republicans wasn't enough. We got a majority through hard work. Now we have to keep that majority but get rid of the corrupt politicians and replace them with better ones. We can't give up. I read a prediction somewhere that it will take until 2012 to start seeing a turn for the better.

[ipaint]

9. A complete farce.

The government no longer works. The culmination of 30 years of selfish, greedy, conservative policies from both parties at the direction of corporations.

The ins. companies aren't going to get millions of mandated customers. People will not be able to afford to subsidize private profits through taxes, pay a premium for lousy care in addition to ever increasing deductibles and co-pays. The jobs with the incomes necessary to support these bloated parasitic private industries are not there and will never be there in the numbers needed to make this atrocity of a health ins. "reform" bill work. As usual the same classes that have suffered horribly for decades under the current broken system will continue to be abused and culled by ins. companies.

Until the perpetually comfortable classes get off their behinds and fight for the least among us and refuse to settle for anything less than what every human needs in this country there will be no change. Unfortunately they are watching their investments gain value back, are touting a recovery just beyond the horizon and patting themselves on the back for voting in a "progressive" president that is making it all possible, so they will be placated and the suffering below them will continue unabated.

The working class and the poor will be able to look forward to another decade or two of the same old same old- scarce, lousy paying service jobs, no health care and a new derogatory, demeaning label- insurance deadbeat.

[SammyWinstonJack]

14. RIGHT ON!!!

:applause:

[leftstreet]

18. +1

[bvar22]

10. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

The DLC New Team
Progressives Need NOT Apply

(Screen Capped from the DLC Website)

Watch Out!
Giving Social Security to Wall Street has always been a goal of the DLC.
"Entitlement Reform" is NEXT on the DLC Hit List!

"Centrist" Democrats are doing what the Republicans could only dream about.
Trillions of dollars Public Money flowing into the Corporate pockets.

"And everybody has a share!" shouted Milo as the bombs fell on their own base.

[dflprincess]

29. I'm starting to get very nervous everytime I hear the Democrats say "reform"

it seems to translate into "To Hell with the Proletariat!"

[Laelth]

11. Agreed. This whole plan stinks, and I hope it goes down in flames.

I can not support legislation that actively works against the interests of the working class.

:dem:

-Laelth

[OHdem10]

13. Appears to be Medicare Reform even more than HIR.

[napi21]

15. I don't know what bills you read, but you're wrong about it not helping the poor &

working class. Premiums cannot be more than 12 1/2% of you income. No more elimination because of pre-existing cond. o more caps if you end up costing more than they expected. Ins. co's are mandated to spend a minimum of 75% of their premiums on patient claims. What part of that isn't helping everybody?

[patrice]

17. I hear you, but Ins Co is running at 20-30% overhead now, so how is that 75% an improvement?

Especially since the PO quite likely will not be strong/big enough to provide real competition.

[napi21]

20. That OH is comprised of the $$$Million salaries & bonuses &

lots of advertising, not to mention the congressional bribes are included in OH too. I believe I have the statement in the bill right when I say "Must use 75% of premium $$'s to pay patient claims." That means one of those other OH items will have to be reduced! You only have one pie and it's divided into several segments. I really don't care which one they reduce. I'd prefer Ads because I'm sick of seeing them, but reducing those bonuses would be great too!

[derby378]

22. Casinos in Las Vegas have a minimum payout higher than that minimum threshold on patient claims

Are you telling me that I'll have better odds at a slot machine than I will with my insurance company if this reform bill gets passed?

[Political Heretic]

26. You are wrong on multiple counts. And its funny how many times people refuse to read OPs

Even though they decide to comment on them.

You are wrong that there will be no more elimination because of preexisting conditions. If the Senate bill becomes law as currently written, insurance companies will be free to continue banning on preexisting conditions until 2014.

The purpose of this delay is to give time for congress to change, for possibly a president to change, and for pubilc attention to be removed from this current debate all while insurance spends millions and millions of dollars to lobby congress to keep extending the deadline, or removing that provision altogether, so that it never goes into effect.

The fact that the bill does not make that law immediately does not put the poor first in any way, and is not in the best interest of working class families.

As for the other two things you mentioned, AS I SAID IN MY OP:

the remaining benefits do not sufficiently outweigh existing problems to be good for the poor and working class.

I then I explained why.

In detail.

[treestar]

16. Why not?

What proof do you have to back up that statement?

And the poor are covered by Medicare.

[Political Heretic]

19. The poor are not "covered" by medicaid, but thanks for the Classism demonstration.

As far as proof goes, I didn't just write a topic line. A body was also included, and in that body I wrote several paragraphs about what is included in the bill and how it actively hurts poor and working class Americans.

"The poor have medicaid." Only someone of privilege could even make a statement like that with a straight face.

EDIT - ah I knew I recognized your name, you're the same guy who said in another thread that its poor people should only blame themselves because "they" don't vote, and then fell silent when it was pointed out just how many things you're ignoring and overlooking with such a ridiculous "blame poor people first" attitude, including the increased opposition to poor voting as well as the extra obstacles face by the poor when it comes to voting.

So this is post #2 of extreme privileged ignorance on display once again.

[treestar]

21. We privileged people are not entitled to an opinion?

Is that supposed to make me not count? Just because I work and pay for my own health insurance, that makes me so "privileged" that I can't point out that you don't back up your assertions?

The poor are covered by medicaid. We have a program for the poor. I'm all for that. the rich and the middle class are covered. The new health care bill is to help the people in the middle.

You gave nothing to back up your statement. You're just a hater.

[laughingliberal]

23. There are many people who would be considered poor by reasonable standards...

that fall outside the guidelines according to the federal poverty levels. Raising the income level to 133% of the federal poverty level will help a little but that is still leaving a lot of people most of us would think are poor out. 2009 Guidelines have $14,570 for a 2 person family as the federal poverty level, $10,830 for one person.

[Political Heretic]

25. They are also flat, not accounting for cost of living differences around America.

So not only are FPGs set too low, below an average living wage, but they are also flat, meaning that there is no difference between what is called "poor" in rual Idaho and what is called "poor" in downtown Boston.

[Political Heretic]

24. No, but an opinon that reflects rampant class bias and the ignorance of privilege

should be called exactly what it is.

The poor are not "covered" by medicaid. Medicaid is a stop-gap measure, with limited and insufficient coverage, for which millions and millions of poor people are INELLIGIBLE. Did you know that? Of course not.

As far as not backing up my own assertions, or giving no evidence. I have and I did. Right in the OP. Each of the very specific problems are things that come right out of the bill.

-- subsidies reduced in house version from what they were in committee. That's not a fact in dispute.

-- subsidies changed to the form of tax credits in Senate version. Also a fact not in dispute.

-- House Public Option so limited it will be available to only 5-10 million people. A fact not in dispute.

-- Senate Public Option also limited in coverage, includes opt out provision. A fact not in dispute.

-- Senate bill does not ban denial of coverage based in preexisting conditions now, promises to do so in 2014. A fact not in dispute.

On top of those facts not in dispute, I gave a lot of analysis as to why I believe both of these bills will ultimately end up costing poor and working class families more money in the long run, with no increased quality in care. The lack of effective subsidies for the poor is a huge, huge problem. That part is opinion - an opinion based on a lot of facts, that I listed.

Anyway, you can disagree all you want. But saying I didn't provide any evidence for my claims in the OP is just lying, to be frank about it.

As far as medicaid goes - your obviously speaking as someone who's never received medicaid, and never been in poverty long enough to discover all the ways in which truly poor families in American don't qualify for medicaid, or how even those who do often have insufficient coverage to meet their health needs.

In answer to your question again, it's not a problem for over-privileged classists to have an opinion. But it would be better if they didn't say such simplistic statements like "poor people have medicaid," because they wouldn't look like such idiots.

[pecwae]

27. You really put him in his place

with "You're just a hater." That's quite the tiresome, childish, too oft used comeback.

[ipaint]

30. Good, let's give everyone the equivalent of medicaid. Including you.

In other words your wealth has no bearing on your quality of care. Why should it, your no better or more deserving a human being than the poor and working poor person. Neither are any of the millionaires in congress.

So how about we all get what the least of us will get, all things supposedly being equal. Of course that would mean nothing for you since this so called insurance reform leaves millions uninsured. What's good enough for them is certainly good enough for you.

[Political Heretic]

28. And its still true today.

[bikingaz]

34. Face it - if you're poor, you're gonna get screwed by these bills

If you are not poor, you will be after paying for the rest of us.

[Political Heretic]

31. And its still true today.

[Political Heretic]

32. And its still true today.

[Political Heretic]

33. And its still true today.